R+L=J... But not only ??

[Blueroses]

First: I've never been much of native speaker, apologies for what you're going to read…

So, I have been reading topics here for a while now as a guest and generally there is more than enough answers to any question I might have. But since the finale has been aired, I was waiting for a question to be discussed but it appears I'm the only one wondering about it (which makes me think it is actually nothing and that I missed something along the way, but still wondering...).

When Bran had his ToJ vision in the finale, I was really wondering the reason why he had it at this very moment. Sure, it's a long awaited moment for the fans (including me) but as The 3-eyed raven, with the war against the dead approaching, wasn't Bran supposed to see more important war related things, for all mankind sake ??? Unless (from the 3ER perspective), it is not R+L=J he was seeing but the (re)birth the prophesied Azor Ahai ?

Sorry if that has been discussed before, but  I didn't find and other topic talking about it...

[xjlxking]

Possible, yes. However, one can argue that it was a start of a lesson. Remember, he was taken there and that's where he questioned his powers. He shouted "father" and apparently like a ripple in the water, Ned turned around. A few episodes later, we see Bran being taught that he can create these ripple like with Hodor

 

i still think that it was relevant because Jon is the main character. I refuse to believe anything but that; there is a reason as to why Rhaeger said about his son Aegon, "his is the song of ice and fire" and he name of the damn novels is the song of ice and fire

[Jon Snow Nothing]

4 hours ago, xjlxking said:

i still think that it was relevant because Jon is the main character. I refuse to believe anything but that; there is a reason as to why Rhaeger said about his son Aegon, "his is the song of ice and fire" and he name of the damn novels is the song of ice and fire

 

My question is: can we really believe that Rhaegar said this? We know he thought his son Aegon was TPTWP because of a comet, but now we know the bleeding star can be the Faith of the Seven "bleeding" (the seven pointed star). When Dany enters the House of the Undying she is told she'll see things of the past, the future and some things that never happened. My doubt is not that he said the song belonged to Aegon but "the dragon must have three heads" part is that got me intrigued, especially since he seems to look into Dany's eyes, if I remember correctly. Maybe we've taken this too literally.

[Blueroses]

11 hours ago, xjlxking said:

i still think that it was relevant because Jon is the main character. I refuse to believe anything but that; there is a reason as to why Rhaeger said about his son Aegon, "his is the song of ice and fire" and he name of the damn novels is the song of ice and fire

That's my point, the flahback, for the 3ER, was more relevant and important than simply finding out who Jon parents are, or may be that answer is the key to more important things related to the war against the deads... Especially for show-only fans who have never read any theory based on the books.

6 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

 

My question is: can we really believe that Rhaegar said this? We know he thought his son Aegon was TPTWP because of a comet, but now we know the bleeding star can be the Faith of the Seven "bleeding" (the seven pointed star). When Dany enters the House of the Undying she is told she'll see things of the past, the future and some things that never happened. My doubt is not that he said the song belonged to Aegon but "the dragon must have three heads" part is that got me intrigued, especially since he seems to look into Dany's eyes, if I remember correctly. Maybe we've taken this too literally.

I've always thought that the thnings that never happened was the vision of what her son would have been if he had lived. For Rhaegar part, it seems like a "prophecy", open to interpretation to me more than a past event, like the vision of the ice wall with a blue rose...

As for the bleeding star, if it's indeed the seven pointed star, and that could be a very tricky thing, then to whom does it somehow lead ? Because many poeple died under that star but none was (re)born ?

[Jon Snow Nothing]

10 hours ago, Blueroses said:

As for the bleeding star, if it's indeed the seven pointed star, and that could be a very tricky thing, then to whom does it somehow lead ? Because many poeple died under that star but none was (re)born ?

You didn't read the books? Everyone thinks Azor Ahai will be "reborn" under the bleeding star, and that is why so many think it's Dany who was born again with her dragons when the red comet was in the sky. But maybe it's the faith that will bleed now that they have an army, and the things must not happen at the same time. Jon is TPTWP, three heads (or names) Jon Snow, Jon Stark, Aemon (?) Targaryen.... The three heads were three names - the dragon must have three heads.

[King Jon Snow Stark]

13 minutes ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

You didn't read the books? Everyone thinks Azor Ahai will be "reborn" under the bleeding star, and that is why so many think it's Dany who was born again with her dragons when the red comet was in the sky. But maybe it's the faith that will bleed now that they have an army, and the things must not happen at the same time. Jon is TPTWP, three heads (or names) Jon Snow, Jon Stark, Aemon (?) Targaryen.... The three heads were three names - the dragon must have three heads.

That's interesting. Jon Snow is who he was. Jon Stark is who is or wants to be now. Jon Targaryen who he's going to be. 

[GhostNymeria]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

You didn't read the books? Everyone thinks Azor Ahai will be "reborn" under the bleeding star, and that is why so many think it's Dany who was born again with her dragons when the red comet was in the sky. But maybe it's the faith that will bleed now that they have an army, and the things must not happen at the same time. Jon is TPTWP, three heads (or names) Jon Snow, Jon Stark, Aemon (?) Targaryen.... The three heads were three names - the dragon must have three heads.

This is how I interpret the three-headed dragon as well. I find it interesting that GRRM had Rhaegar saying that the dragon must have three heads in the same vision he spoke of the prince that was promised/the song of ice and fire. And I don't think that three characters are going to be dragon riders. It's would be to easy to defeat the white walkers. Riding a dragon is Dany's thing.

[xjlxking]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

You didn't read the books? Everyone thinks Azor Ahai will be "reborn" under the bleeding star, and that is why so many think it's Dany who was born again with her dragons when the red comet was in the sky. But maybe it's the faith that will bleed now that they have an army, and the things must not happen at the same time. Jon is TPTWP, three heads (or names) Jon Snow, Jon Stark, Aemon (?) Targaryen.... The three heads were three names - the dragon must have three heads.

Maybe the prophecy is not meant to be taken literal but figurative. Star mighty mean the sword that Arthur Dayne was using and it was bleeding.

 

[ShadowKitteh]

Well... in the show... 

Many tears are shed when Jon was murdered. Salt.

Melisandre cuts and burns Jon's hair. Smoke.

Reborn.

In Bran's vision of the ToJ, Ned sets Dawn at the foot of the birthing bed, above a blood-stained blanket. 

Dany (The Dragon), has her three dragons (heads) = Lightbringer. Dany, walking into Khal Drog's pyre, forged Lightbringer and became Jon's Nissa Nissa, only she didn't die doing it. It forged her too. 

[Blueroses]

 

3 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

You didn't read the books? Everyone thinks Azor Ahai will be "reborn" under the bleeding star, and that is why so many think it's Dany who was born again with her dragons when the red comet was in the sky. But maybe it's the faith that will bleed now that they have an army, and the things must not happen at the same time. Jon is TPTWP, three heads (or names) Jon Snow, Jon Stark, Aemon (?) Targaryen.... The three heads were three names - the dragon must have three heads.

I've juste started reading the books the last month I'm still in the middle of the first one...

I find that theory very interessting, first time I hear about it and I prefer this interpretation to three riders' one, it is consistent with Jon being the dragon under Winterfell as well. Even if Jon do succeed to ride a dragon, I can't see him not directely fighting the WW in the field, with him beeing "the geartest swordsman who ever walked"

1 hour ago, xjlxking said:

Maybe the prophecy is not meant to be taken literal but figurative. Star mighty mean the sword that Arthur Dayne was using and it was bleeding.

 

It's probably not important, but I've also been wondering if the name "Stark" could have any connection with the word "Star"...

[xjlxking]

8 minutes ago, Blueroses said:

 

I've juste started reading the books the last month I'm still in the middle of the first one...

I find that theory very interessting, first time I hear about it and I prefer this interpretation to three riders' one, it is consistent with Jon being the dragon under Winterfell as well. Even if Jon do succeed to ride a dragon, I can't see him not directely fighting the WW in the field, with him beeing "the geartest swordsman who ever walked"

It's probably not important, but I've also been wondering if the name "Stark" could have any connection with the word "Star"...

Yup. Or song might be Son of ice and fire

[xjlxking]

45 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Well... in the show... 

Many tears are shed when Jon was murdered. Salt.

Melisandre cuts and burns Jon's hair. Smoke.

Reborn.

In Bran's vision of the ToJ, Ned sets Dawn at the foot of the birthing bed, above a blood-stained blanket. 

Dany (The Dragon), has her three dragons (heads) = Lightbringer. Dany, walking into Khal Drog's pyre, forged Lightbringer and became Jon's Nissa Nissa, only she didn't die doing it. It forged her too. 

Dany fits the prophecy literally. There was literally a bleeding red star, she born on rock and salt. She has grew dragons...

Jon fits the prophecy more in a figurative or metaphorical sense. To me, Dany is the obvious choice which I think GRRM will eventually show that she is not 

[MtnLion]

20 hours ago, xjlxking said:

Dany fits the prophecy literally. There was literally a bleeding red star, she born on rock and salt. She has grew dragons...

Jon fits the prophecy more in a figurative or metaphorical sense. To me, Dany is the obvious choice which I think GRRM will eventually show that she is not 

I don't believe that you can count Daenerys as a "warrior" which Azor Ahai is defined as. 

Quote

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

Just for grins, Jon drew Long Claw from the fire that engulfed Lord Commander Jeor's quarters. 

[brightflame princess]

On 7/9/2016 at 8:48 AM, Blueroses said:

First: I've never been much of native speaker, apologies for what you're going to read…

 

So, I have been reading topics here for a while now as a guest and generally there is more than enough answers to any question I might have. But since the finale has been aired, I was waiting for a question to be discussed but it appears I'm the only one wondering about it (which makes me think it is actually nothing and that I missed something along the way, but still wondering...).

 

When Bran had his ToJ vision in the finale, I was really wondering the reason why he had it at this very moment. Sure, it's a long awaited moment for the fans (including me) but as The 3-eyed raven, with the war against the dead approaching, wasn't Bran supposed to see more important war related things, for all mankind sake ??? Unless (from the 3ER perspective), it is not R+L=J he was seeing but the (re)birth the prophesied Azor Ahai ?

 

Sorry if that has been discussed before, but  I didn't find and other topic talking about it...

 

Good point. I think the show runners just wanted to draw it out and save it for the finale. And they probably had some reason for doing the reveal that way.

Personally, I don't think that is how it will be revealed in the books. I think bran in the books will be trying to find out more about prophecy and white walkers and how to destroy them, and howland reed (the guy who saved young Ned from arthur dayne, if you don't read the books) will spill the beans. This is purely speculation tho.

[Jon Snow Nothing]

On 10/07/2016 at 3:41 PM, GhostNymeria said:

This is how I interpret the three-headed dragon as well. I find it interesting that GRRM had Rhaegar saying that the dragon must have three heads in the same vision he spoke of the prince that was promised/the song of ice and fire. And I don't think that three characters are going to be dragon riders. It's would be to easy to defeat the white walkers. Riding a dragon is Dany's thing.

 

I think this whole "dragon must have three heads" lead to many misinterpretations. Just like The Prince could be a Princess. Or the "reborn" in Azor Ahai prophecy. I would like to know how exactly is the TPTWP written. We know about Azor Ahai and the myth of the past. But not the new one.

Also, we are mislead to think smoke means smoke and salt means salt. What if Smoke means fire and Salt means snow or ice? The whole reborn thing, Rhaegar thought he was going to be born, not reborn (unlike AA). Dany was "reborn" but not really, she didn't die. Jon died and was reborn. In the show, by the time he is ressurected, not at the same time, but around the same time, there is a bleeding star - the seven pointed star was suffering.

On Topic, I don't think Bran saw something about the prophecy and I really doubt Lyanna or Rhaegar were thinking about princes and prophecies when they made Jon. Bran saw the fact that Jon is his cousin not his bastard brother. Only this. Confirmed a theory (so many theories).

Why do I think Rhaegar and Lyanna did not care about the prophecy? Because this is how prophecies tend to happen, when you are not thinking about them. He thought Aegon was TPTWP but not because he had to have two siblings. This is just stupid, this whole theory of Rhaegar wanting more kids so soon. Lyanna was not going to be married when she was "kidnapped" - Brandon Stark was going to get married not her, so why the rush if he thought his three year old baby was the promised prince?

It is so simple. Starks were getting powerful, more powerful than ever. Aerys was paranoid. Marrying their children to Tullys and Baratheons.

He did not trust the Starks as the did not trust his son. But how could he summon these northern people and make them suffer? Simple: Varys told him Lyanna Stark was TKOTLT on that bloody tournament. This is why Ned said to Arya that Lyanna's temper took her to an earlier death. What else? It has to be related to TKoTLT! And Brandon because he did not waited to know the truth.

So Aerys finds out about Lyanna, and this is the perfect - in his mind - excuse to summon the Stark girl and "judge" her. Of course he would summon daddy Stark too. And everything would happen almost like it happened. But Rhaegar found out and fought the King's knights and ran away with her,

Lyanna considered a traitor, and now Rhaegar considered a traitor too.

And why Aerys the mad King who did not trust his son wanted him at the Trident? Because he couldn't be there, he wasn't going to risk his life and as far as I know he was no warrior.

Better: why did Rhaegar, considered traitor and hated by his father left a very pregnant Lyanna to fight for the Targaryens? Simple: Aerys, along with Hightower, sent him a royal pardon as well as legitimizing his relationship with Lyanna and their children in exchange for his help. Notice that a royal pardon is mentioned a lot of times regarding Jorah Mormont - he wanted to help King Robert so he could get a pardon and come back to Westeros.

So, yes, maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna got married but they needed Aerys to legitimize the marriage, to legitimize Jon. In my way of thinking, this is what happened.

Aerys needed a Targaryen warrior at the Trident. But he had plans... he had plans Rhaegar did not suspect. I did not read TWOIAF but it is said that he declared Viserys his heir. Everyone thinks it's because of Aegon. But what if it's because of the secret grandchild he knew about? He would never want an heir with Stark blood and an heir who could be King someday. I think he would try to set Rhaegar aside anyway, and make Viserys his heir. In fact, that was what was happening even before the whole "kidnapping" thing, I think, he was already planning to make his younger son his heir because he did not trust Rhaegar.

So, no, Bran was not seeing any prophecy, only confirming one thing for the book readers and curious show watchers who read things on the internet. So far we have no confirmation of legitimacy, marriage, rape, madness, not even if Jon will find out who his mother was (this was very very very important to him on the books, poor Jon, thought his mother abandoned him).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GhostNymeria]

12 hours ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

 

I think this whole "dragon must have three heads" lead to many misinterpretations. Just like The Prince could be a Princess. Or the "reborn" in Azor Ahai prophecy. I would like to know how exactly is the TPTWP written. We know about Azor Ahai and the myth of the past. But not the new one.

Also, we are mislead to think smoke means smoke and salt means salt. What if Smoke means fire and Salt means snow or ice? The whole reborn thing, Rhaegar thought he was going to be born, not reborn (unlike AA). Dany was "reborn" but not really, she didn't die. Jon died and was reborn. In the show, by the time he is ressurected, not at the same time, but around the same time, there is a bleeding star - the seven pointed star was suffering.

On Topic, I don't think Bran saw something about the prophecy and I really doubt Lyanna or Rhaegar were thinking about princes and prophecies when they made Jon. Bran saw the fact that Jon is his cousin not his bastard brother. Only this. Confirmed a theory (so many theories).

Why do I think Rhaegar and Lyanna did not care about the prophecy? Because this is how prophecies tend to happen, when you are not thinking about them. He thought Aegon was TPTWP but not because he had to have two siblings. This is just stupid, this whole theory of Rhaegar wanting more kids so soon. Lyanna was not going to be married when she was "kidnapped" - Brandon Stark was going to get married not her, so why the rush if he thought his three year old baby was the promised prince?

It is so simple. Starks were getting powerful, more powerful than ever. Aerys was paranoid. Marrying their children to Tullys and Baratheons.

He did not trust the Starks as the did not trust his son. But how could he summon these northern people and make them suffer? Simple: Varys told him Lyanna Stark was TKOTLT on that bloody tournament. This is why Ned said to Arya that Lyanna's temper took her to an earlier death. What else? It has to be related to TKoTLT! And Brandon because he did not waited to know the truth.

So Aerys finds out about Lyanna, and this is the perfect - in his mind - excuse to summon the Stark girl and "judge" her. Of course he would summon daddy Stark too. And everything would happen almost like it happened. But Rhaegar found out and fought the King's knights and ran away with her,

Lyanna considered a traitor, and now Rhaegar considered a traitor too.

And why Aerys the mad King who did not trust his son wanted him at the Trident? Because he couldn't be there, he wasn't going to risk his life and as far as I know he was no warrior.

Better: why did Rhaegar, considered traitor and hated by his father left a very pregnant Lyanna to fight for the Targaryens? Simple: Aerys, along with Hightower, sent him a royal pardon as well as legitimizing his relationship with Lyanna and their children in exchange for his help. Notice that a royal pardon is mentioned a lot of times regarding Jorah Mormont - he wanted to help King Robert so he could get a pardon and come back to Westeros.

So, yes, maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna got married but they needed Aerys to legitimize the marriage, to legitimize Jon. In my way of thinking, this is what happened.

Aerys needed a Targaryen warrior at the Trident. But he had plans... he had plans Rhaegar did not suspect. I did not read TWOIAF but it is said that he declared Viserys his heir. Everyone thinks it's because of Aegon. But what if it's because of the secret grandchild he knew about? He would never want an heir with Stark blood and an heir who could be King someday. I think he would try to set Rhaegar aside anyway, and make Viserys his heir. In fact, that was what was happening even before the whole "kidnapping" thing, I think, he was already planning to make his younger son his heir because he did not trust Rhaegar.

So, no, Bran was not seeing any prophecy, only confirming one thing for the book readers and curious show watchers who read things on the internet. So far we have no confirmation of legitimacy, marriage, rape, madness, not even if Jon will find out who his mother was (this was very very very important to him on the books, poor Jon, thought his mother abandoned him).

I know Bran didn't see any prophesy in the flashback. At this point he doesn't know anything about Azor Ahai or TPTWP. I agree that trying to fulfill a prophecy in ASOIAF doesn't work. We've seen Melisandre trying to do this with Stannis. I don't remember if Stannis sword started glowing when he pulled it out of the fire on Dragonstone or later, but either case, Melisandre have definitely done some glamour thing to it to "help" the prophecy to fulfill. But like you said, it doesn't work that way. 

Also, intresting take on Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage and what happend between them and Aerys after that. I've never come across that explanation before, and it definitely connects a lot of dots, like Aerys decraling Viserys as heir. I definitely agree that something like that likely happend. But I still believe Rhaegar was thinking that he had to have third child in Dany's vision (don't know if the "three-headed dragon" is a prophecy tough, maybe he'd read it in relation to TPTWP prophecy). But since he also believed Aegon was TPTWP (born under a red comet apparently), I don't think he was necessarily going around and looking for another potential mother to his child. Maybe he simply gave up on the "three-headed dragon" when he found out Elia would die if she got pregnant again. 

Aerys definitely had it out for the Starks. And when he found out about Lyanna being the KOTLT, he send his men after her. Rhaegar found out about it and also whent after her to help her. That's why many people in Westeros have the misconception that Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point. It was Aerys men who took her, or tried to take her at sword point. Rhaegar and his closest companions was either there at the confrontation or saved her later when Aerys men had already arrested her. The point is that some people propably saw Lyanna getting taken away by the king's men, or Rhaegar and his men in the same confrontation, and didn't get the whole context (Rhaegar and co and Aery's men being on opposite sides), thus assuming it was Rhaegar who took her at sword point. 

Also, I believe Rhaegar was infatuated and impressed by Lyanna at Harrenhal after finding her as the KOTLT. That's why he crowned her the queen of love and beauty. I don't think they were in love or anything at this point, but when Rhaegar won the tourney he crowned her in "the moment" with all the adrenaline rushing without thinking of consequences and his wife's reaction. At Harrenhal this was all that happend between them I believe, but when Rhaeger later helped and hid Lyanna from Aery's men, they spent a lot of time togheter and this is where the romantic relationship developed. And I don't think Elia was "okay" with it, as many people ar theorizing. This version makes Rhaegar and Lyanna much more human and flawed in my mind, than Rhaegar trying to fulfill a prophecy with Lyanna.

 

[Chib]

4 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

I know Bran didn't see any prophesy in the flashback. At this point he doesn't know anything about Azor Ahai or TPTWP. I agree that trying to fulfill a prophecy in ASOIAF doesn't work. We've seen Melisandre trying to do this with Stannis. I don't remember if Stannis sword started glowing when he pulled it out of the fire on Dragonstone or later, but either case, Melisandre have definitely done some glamour thing to it to "help" the prophecy to fulfill. But like you said, it doesn't work that way. 

Also, intresting take on Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage and what happend between them and Aerys after that. I've never come across that explanation before, and it definitely connects a lot of dots, like Aerys decraling Viserys as heir. I definitely agree that something like that likely happend. But I still believe Rhaegar was thinking that he had to have third child in Dany's vision (don't know if the "three-headed dragon" is a prophecy tough, maybe he'd read it in relation to TPTWP prophecy). But since he also believed Aegon was TPTWP (born under a red comet apparently), I don't think he was necessarily going around and looking for another potential mother to his child. Maybe he simply gave up on the "three-headed dragon" when he found out Elia would die if she got pregnant again. 

Aerys definitely had it out for the Starks. And when he found out about Lyanna being the KOTLT, he send his men after her. Rhaegar found out about it and also whent after her to help her. That's why many people in Westeros have the misconception that Rhaegar took Lyanna at sword point. It was Aerys men who took her, or tried to take her at sword point. Rhaegar and his closest companions was either there at the confrontation or saved her later when Aerys men had already arrested her. The point is that some people propably saw Lyanna getting taken away by the king's men, or Rhaegar and his men in the same confrontation, and didn't get the whole context (Rhaegar and co and Aery's men being on opposite sides), thus assuming it was Rhaegar who took her at sword point. 

Also, I believe Rhaegar was infatuated and impressed by Lyanna at Harrenhal after finding her as the KOTLT. That's why he crowned her the queen of love and beauty. I don't think they were in love or anything at this point, but when Rhaegar won the tourney he crowned her in "the moment" with all the adrenaline rushing without thinking of consequences and his wife's reaction. At Harrenhal this was all that happend between them I believe, but when Rhaeger later helped and hid Lyanna from Aery's men, they spent a lot of time togheter and this is where the romantic relationship developed. And I don't think Elia was "okay" with it, as many people ar theorizing. This version makes Rhaegar and Lyanna much more human and flawed in my mind, than Rhaegar trying to fulfill a prophecy with Lyanna.

16

Yeap, I think maybe Aerys wanted to capture Lyanna and it's Rhaegar who saved her...and that's why they went underground for so long away from both of their families. It makes more sense. 

[Cragen]

Azor Ahai never existed, so he can't be reborn. Does anybody really think that savior of world will come from religion who burn innocent people alive like offering to their god. Like Davos said, if your god demand burning of little innocent girl, then your god is evil one.

[Blueroses]

6 hours ago, Cragen said:

Azor Ahai never existed, so he can't be reborn. Does anybody really think that savior of world will come from religion who burn innocent people alive like offering to their god. Like Davos said, if your god demand burning of little innocent girl, then your god is evil one.

But is it a common believe that Azor Ahai is also The Prince Who Was Promised, The Last Hero... and other legendary/prophesied figures ?

So it doesn't mean he would specially come specifically from this religion or need that horribles sacrifices made for him, it would be the red priest(s) faults they're are taking the wrong way.

[Cragen]

About Prince That Was Promised we know little, we know that Ghost of High Heart have vision that he/she will be born from line of Aerys and Rhaela, that he/she is supposed to do know nothing. It's possible that Rhaegar and Aemon thinks that TPTWP and AA are same and there are not. Hole prophecy thing in books is messy in show we don't have much information about either prophecy. For me most believable is Last Hero story, but nobody said that Last Hero will be reborn.