Valar Morghulis, Jaqen H'gar's weird logic

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

7 hours ago, Yollo/Hugor Hill/Tyrion said:

in response to the OP 

1. While it may be true that many people give the Many Faced God's "gift" in the world the FM only ever seem to take issue with it when the servants of the Many-Faced God do it as in AFfC when Arya kills that guy. It only seems to matter that His servants give the "gift" to those whom the price has been paid for. Arya saved three lives, 3 lives are owed to the Many Faced God, now three lives must be taken and since Arya saved them Arya must name them. It could also be because she saved a servant of the MFG the lives are owed to her. it is suggested in books 4-5 that the Braavosi all serve the MFG to some degree such as when the sailors who took Arya to the House of Black and White they asked her to remember their names and the service they did her plus the fact they seem to be able to get Arya a job anywhere in Braavos be it a mummer or selling clams and the people there know who she is. It is unclear if they get anything in return but they could and the FM are known to pay their debts even more than the Lannisters.

2. If Arya hadn't thrown the axe they would have died.

3. The FM believe that all the gods men worship are really the same god with a hundred different faces, and they are his instrument. Therefore killing a man by any means is offering him up as a gift to the same god. As to why he mentions the Red god specifically:

This seems to suggest that there is only one fire god in all of Planetos as none others are ever mentioned and if that god isn't the god of death i don't know who is. As to your question about why Jaqen is so religious, all of the FM we interact with are shown to be so devoted to the MFG that they are literally no one. They are one of the few groups that i actually count on to be consistent in their goals, despite my not having any idea what those goals may be.

What I'm wondering is how does Jaqen change his face and hair differently than all the other FM in Braavos do without cutting off his current face? Do we just not know how yet and will Arya learn it? Or is Jaqen a trained sorcerer besides a FM and that's how he did it, or are all FM trained in sorcery?

No matter how I look at it there always seems to be something that doesn't quite fit. We learn from Arya's chapters in the HoBW that only those who the MFG had judged to die,  may be killed. If we leave the whole Rh'llor thing out of the argument,  assuming it's all just the MFG, than doesn't Arya saving them mean that apparently they should not die,  and if they should have,  how can they be randomly replaced by others? 

You could say that her "prayer" marks her picks for dead,  but in that case she gets 3 deaths for only one life,  since Jaqen is the only live in service of the MFG, and Rorge and Biter are destined to die soon anyway,  as we learn later. This is also one of the reasons I think she might have 'sold' her own life to the MFG by choosing these deaths. Especially since she gets way more than 3.

Another thing that doesn't add up is that Jaqen tells her that she may name another after he promised to help her free the northmen. He must already have known that more than one would die in that act,  yet when she asks later if she still gets her third death he denies it to her,  which makes me think she still has one open after all. 

Edit; I believe they don't cut off their faces, but make a sort of incision and apply the new face to the blood. Or something like that. 

The FM also seem to dislike magic,  so I doubt they're sorcerers. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Two more quotes I keep reading when trying to decide if there is an Illyrio/Varys - Faceless Man connection:

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

 

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

 

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

 

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . . "

 

"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . . "

 

" . . . .if they kept their tongues . . . "

 

" . . . the risk . . . "

And:

The voice was strangely familiar, yet it took Ned Stark a moment to place it. "Varys?" he said groggily when it came. He touched the man's face. "I'm not . . . not dreaming this. You're here." The eunuch's plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine. "How did you . . . what sort of magician are you?"

 

"A thirsty one," Varys said. "Drink, my lord."

Now I can never decide if this is a normal disguise by Varys or if it is some sort of face changing... Ned certainly finds it remarkable, and calls it magic... 

Now, in my opinion the biggest marks against the idea that Varys and Illyrio are FM agents is that they seem to be helping Targaryens and that Illyrio trades in slaves... Both would seem to go against the founding principles that Arya learns. 

[rhoynestar]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Now, in my opinion the biggest marks against the idea that Varys and Illyrio are FM agents is that they seem to be helping Targaryens and that Illyrio trades in slaves... Both would seem to go against the founding principles that Arya learns. 

I would not argue Varys and Ilyrio are FM agents. If they were truly facechanging Varys would never claim his original identity, and Ned would never recognize Varys in anything he says, the change is complete -- you take on a whole new face and history/thought process, and you do not reveal yourself because you are not yourself anymore. Varys is still claiming to be Varys on some level. Likely his was just a very good disguise job. Ilyrio calls him a "true sorcerer" admiringly, as in your sleights of hand/spying/other work is not real magic but it's as close as it gets.

On the other hand, FM and Ilyrio/Varys may be working together. You can cooperate with the FM without becoming an FM yourself or sharing their particular values -- just cooperate with the FM's clients, or just become partners purely to achieve the same goal. We have quite a few indicators that they may be cooperating at some points.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Two more quotes I keep reading when trying to decide if there is an Illyrio/Varys - Faceless Man connection:

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

 

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."

 

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

 

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . . "

 

"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . . "

 

" . . . .if they kept their tongues . . . "

 

" . . . the risk . . . "

And:

The voice was strangely familiar, yet it took Ned Stark a moment to place it. "Varys?" he said groggily when it came. He touched the man's face. "I'm not . . . not dreaming this. You're here." The eunuch's plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine. "How did you . . . what sort of magician are you?"

 

"A thirsty one," Varys said. "Drink, my lord."

Now I can never decide if this is a normal disguise by Varys or if it is some sort of face changing... Ned certainly finds it remarkable, and calls it magic... 

Now, in my opinion the biggest marks against the idea that Varys and Illyrio are FM agents is that they seem to be helping Targaryens and that Illyrio trades in slaves... Both would seem to go against the founding principles that Arya learns. 

I'd say it's a very good,  but normal disguise. In any other disguise Varys has,  he's easily recognised when one really looks. 

3 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

I would not argue Varys and Ilyrio are FM agents. If they were truly facechanging Varys would never claim his original identity, and Ned would never recognize Varys in anything he says, the change is complete -- you take on a whole new face and history/thought process, and you do not reveal yourself because you are not yourself anymore. Varys is still claiming to be Varys on some level. Likely his was just a very good disguise job. Ilyrio calls him a "true sorcerer" admiringly, as in your sleights of hand/spying/other work is not real magic but it's as close as it gets.

On the other hand, FM and Ilyrio/Varys may be working together. You can cooperate with the FM without becoming an FM yourself or sharing their particular values -- just cooperate with the FM's clients, or just become partners purely to achieve the same goal. We have quite a few indicators that they may be cooperating at some points.

Yes i don't think they are FM, but they might work together,  and have a common goal,  and they even could've had a partial training. Arya learns to spy as well in her training. Learning secrets seems to be part of the FM activities. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'd say it's a very good,  but normal disguise. In any other disguise Varys has,  he's easily recognised when one really looks. 

Yes i don't think they are FM, but they might work together,  and have a common goal,  and they even could've had a partial training. Arya learns to spy as well in her training. Learning secrets seems to be part of the FM activities. 

The partial training is defiantly a possibility... And I had always thought Varys was using mummers tricks as opposed to FM magic... Until on a reread I saw that whole Ned feeling his stubble bit... Varys is notoriously hairless, and feeling someone's face is going to mess up the standard disguise I'd think, how does one fake stubble? And even the magic glamours like Mel uses seem to just bend light and shadows to "trick the eye"... Anyway no conclusion, it just seemed odd to me

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The partial training is defiantly a possibility... And I had always thought Varys was using mummers tricks as opposed to FM magic... Until on a reread I saw that whole Ned feeling his stubble bit... Varys is notoriously hairless, and feeling someone's face is going to mess up the standard disguise I'd think, how does one fake stubble? And even the magic glamours like Mel uses seem to just bend light and shadows to "trick the eye"... Anyway no conclusion, it just seemed odd to me

In an aCoK chapter Tyrion mentions that Varys has take stubble. I don't know how Ned wouldn't feel the difference,  but apparently it's very good value stubble... 

[Raisin' Bran]

First, I am usually very impressed with @sweetsunray's analysis. And this was no exception.

After reading the comments on the post I am thinking that there might be another explanation to the use of "the Red God" in the text. At this point in the story we have been introduced to only a few religions from Essos (R'hllor, Dothraki, and Lhazareen). I do not recall there being any mention of the MFG before now. Additionally in CoK, R'hllor is very prominent in the Wo5K and for simplicity's sake, because "Jaqen" was from Essos, not from the Dothraki nor Lhazareen cultures, and Arya saved the three amigos from a fiery death, it makes sense that Jaqen would mention that lives were stolen from R'hllor.

GRRM cannot spell it all out at once, it has to make sense to the reader and to the people involved in the conversation. I would find it unlikely that Arya would have learned anything about the FM from her parents or Maester Luwin.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 hour ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

First, I am usually very impressed with @sweetsunray's analysis. And this was no exception.

After reading the comments on the post I am thinking that there might be another explanation to the use of "the Red God" in the text. At this point in the story we have been introduced to only a few religions from Essos (R'hllor, Dothraki, and Lhazareen). I do not recall there being any mention of the MFG before now. Additionally in CoK, R'hllor is very prominent in the Wo5K and for simplicity's sake, because "Jaqen" was from Essos, not from the Dothraki nor Lhazareen cultures, and Arya saved the three amigos from a fiery death, it makes sense that Jaqen would mention that lives were stolen from R'hllor.

GRRM cannot spell it all out at once, it has to make sense to the reader and to the people involved in the conversation. I would find it unlikely that Arya would have learned anything about the FM from her parents or Maester Luwin.

This could be true,  but a lot about Jaqen feels a bit out of place,  while things on their own aren't particularly strange. 

He mentions the Red god repeatedly, drawing quite a bit of attention to it. The only true R'hllorist we've been introduced to at this point is Melisandre, not counting Thoros of Myr, because he's been less than a side character up to this point. Melisandre has strange red hair, while Jaqen happens to have strange half red half white hair. Now we don't get a description of what sort of red it is,  but I don't get the impression of Ygritte red here. 

Now black and white hair would make put a link to the HoBaW later,  but red and white remains strange. There's no other character in the series with similar hair. I understand he gets his haircolor from the face he wears,  but i don't get why that would be such mysterious hair. To me this seems to indicate that he's not just working for the HoBaW. 

Perhaps we're just supposed to consider him a mysterious person from the start,  but in that case I'll expect some answers at some point...

To me there are just too many things that don't add up entirely. 

[Yollo/Hugor Hill/Tyrion]

On 7/13/2016 at 8:39 AM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Edit; I believe they don't cut off their faces, but make a sort of incision and apply the new face to the blood. Or something like that.

yeah but it's mentioned that Arya needs to get her real face back after she gets the ugly one so they're clearly removing the origional and hanging it on the wall of faces while she's gone 

 

On 7/13/2016 at 5:54 PM, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

To me there are just too many things that don't add up entirely. 

DO NOT QUESTION GEORGE RR MARTIN every time you do he kills a Stark

Jaqen is a very interesting character we know literally nothing about as we have barely seen him at all and know nothing about his story it's clear he has some ability with magic but does most of his killings through fairly normal means and we know he's in Oldtown. That's it. We don't know what he was doing in Westeros, why he spoke like a FM even though he had a name at the time, what he wants in the Citadel, the goals of the FM in general, or if he sought Arya out because he saw her potential or wanted to pay back a debt, although the FM seem to believe in volontary service seeing as they offer Arya every opportunity and incentive to leave, so i guess we'll just have to wait and see