Valar Morghulis, Jaqen H'gar's weird logic

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the weird logic by which Arya earns her three deaths. According to Jaqen it's because she stole three deaths of the Red God of fire, but this doesn't make sense at all for the following reasons :

1. You can't steal a death from the gods because valar Morghulis ; all men must die,  and will,  at one point of another. They will get their death,  just not at that very moment. Why would the gods care at all when they have their due,  as Jaqen calls it? And if Arya gets 3 deaths for saving 3 lives,  why don't the maesters get to randomly pick someone to die whenever they save a life? You can't steal a death as long as a person is still alive,  since the gods haven't received it yet. If anyone is stealing deaths,  it would be the Others, Thoros of Myr, Dany/Mirri Maz Duur and Maester Qyburn/Cersei.

2. If we'd accept the argument that indeed these deaths are "stolen" from R'hllor, was it really Arya who stole them? She didn't really save them,  all she did was throw them an axe, so they could save themselves. Jaqen who asked for her help,  and Rorge who probably swung the axe are responsible as well. They are all responsible for 'stealing' their lives. They could have decided to just sit there and die,  even with the axe,  which they wouldn't even have had if Jaqen hadn't asked for her help. 

3. Let's assume that all of Jaqen's argument does make sense,  and the Red God indeed must have his due... Then why doesn't he burn the men Arya names? This way their deaths would supposedly go to some other God,  and red R'hllor would still be as pissed off and hungry as he was before... 

I can only draw the conclusion that Jaqen can't seriously believe this weird religious babble,  and probably wanted to turn Arya in a cold badass assassin all along,  by giving her a first taste of cold -hearted killing,  or something like that... 

What do you think? 

[BricksAndSparrows]

I would say he saw Arya's intercession as indisputably saving lives. They should have been dead. In Jaqen's eyes, their fate was sealed. A fate doled out by his Red God. Maybe Jaqen thought that with their odds of survival being so low, the Red God must really have wanted some blood, and so he felt obligated to see it paid. I assume he could have selected the deaths himself, but he saw Arya's involvement and their unexpected (and unlikely reunion) as some sort of sign that she should be involved. All though it would have been just as poetic/sensible, to kill her, Hot Pie, and Gendry...

Who can say...

[MinotaurWarrior]

At very least, the whole  "I name Jaqen" deal is super-fishy because Jaqen was a Brave Companion, and the Brave Companions were already planning on freeing the Northmen. It's possible he hadn't been explicitly told that was the plan, but if Jaqen is half as observant as an assassin of his Caliber should be, then he would have noticed that all the northmen were faking their injuries.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

12 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I would say he saw Arya's intercession as indisputably saving lives. They should have been dead. In Jaqen's eyes, their fate was sealed. A fate doled out by his Red God. Maybe Jaqen thought that with their odds of survival being so low, the Red God must really have wanted some blood, and so he felt obligated to see it paid. I assume he could have selected the deaths himself, but he saw Arya's involvement and their unexpected (and unlikely reunion) as some sort of sign that she should be involved. All though it would have been just as poetic/sensible, to kill her, Hot Pie, and Gendry...

Who can say...

But even so,  even if he truly believed his red God must have his due,  shouldn't be have set them on fire, instead of pushing one off a wall, and having the other eaten by his dog (leaving out the whole weasel soup deal, since that was pure improvisation). 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

6 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

At very least, the whole  "I name Jaqen" deal is super-fishy because Jaqen was a Brave Companion, and the Brave Companions were already planning on freeing the Northmen. It's possible he hadn't been explicitly told that was the plan, but if Jaqen is half as observant as an assassin of his Caliber should be, then he would have noticed that all the northmen were faking their injuries.

It's actually quite clear that he knew that,  he even explains it to Arya,  after the weasel soup.

I'm referring to the "a goat has no loyalty" speech.

[BricksAndSparrows]

4 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

But even so,  even if he truly believed his red God must have his due,  shouldn't be have set them on fire, instead of pushing one off a wall, and having the other eaten by his dog (leaving out the whole weasel soup deal, since that was pure improvisation). 

I suppose Jaqen might say "dead is dead."

[MinotaurWarrior]

6 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

It's actually quite clear that he knew that,  he even explains it to Arya,  after the weasel soup.

I'm referring to the "a goat has no loyalty" speech.

By the time he says that, any adult could have figured it out. The Northerners had practically said it. But I agree that the way he says it is another strong point of evidence in favor of the third death being BS.

[cgrav]

34 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

I would say he saw Arya's intercession as indisputably saving lives. They should have been dead. In Jaqen's eyes, their fate was sealed. A fate doled out by his Red God. Maybe Jaqen thought that with their odds of survival being so low, the Red God must really have wanted some blood, and so he felt obligated to see it paid. I assume he could have selected the deaths himself, but he saw Arya's involvement and their unexpected (and unlikely reunion) as some sort of sign that she should be involved.

 Agree, though I don't think the Faceless assassins get to choose their own targets. They're only serving the Many Faced God. 

[Arya_Stupid!]

My question is, why does he even care what the creepy Red God wants anyways?

If he is a faithful/dutiful Faceless Man, and not some sort of radical - does one God equal any other God in their eyes? I mean, do they accept that any and all Gods/Goddess' are merely facets of their Many Faced God? Or are certain Gods, ie: R'hollor, held as seperate entities to be appeased, but held apart from their pantheon for some reason? And if so, why?

Or is it just a part of Ja'quen's personal beliefs from who he was before he was No One? Or beliefs from the 'skin' he is wearing? He also seems to have a connection with the Old Gods as well. Whether this is a maneuver on his part to try and gain common ground with Arya or genuine, i really can't say.

 

the way that the FM try to stamp out all previous attatchments and beliefs, even small tells from Arya's person, but Ja'quen seems to show personal preferences in his naming of Gods... It just seems kinda fishy to me, i guess.

[gregg22]

I recently mentioned this in another thread, that I think this whole "the red god is owed three lives " thing is completely BS.

Really, they never really give three back to the red god. Things get all wishy washy when Arya names him as the third, only as a ploy to get his help. In reality, if he is "no one" truly, then it shouldn't matter that she names  Jaqen Hgar, because he is not -Jaqen at all.

The dog and pony show was simply to recruit Arya. But moreover, I believe Arya was actually a price someone paid for another hit (possibly Ned). This is just their way of taking payment. They can't just snatch her up, she'll never just serve them that way. To me this is the purpose of the Waif's story, and Arya ended up with the FM much the same way.

I think we will see in future books that the FM arnt purely serving the MFG as they say. They are likely as corrupt as everyone else in the story.

Who knows Arya may even learn they had a hand in her father's death

 

 

[Arya_Stupid!]

23 minutes ago, gregg22 said:

I recently mentioned this in another thread, that I think this whole "the red god is owed three lives " thing is completely BS.

Really, they never really give three back to the red god. Things get all wishy washy when Arya names him as the third, only as a ploy to get his help. In reality, if he is "no one" truly, then it shouldn't matter that she names  Jaqen Hgar, because he is not -Jaqen at all.

The dog and pony show was simply to recruit Arya. But moreover, I believe Arya was actually a price someone paid for another hit (possibly Ned). This is just their way of taking payment. They can't just snatch her up, she'll never just serve them that way. To me this is the purpose of the Waif's story, and Arya ended up with the FM much the same way.

I think we will see in future books that the FM arnt purely serving the MFG as they say. They are likely as corrupt as everyone else in the story.

Who knows Arya may even learn they had a hand in her father's death

 

 

This is really intriguing to me gregg22, who do you think the 'price of Arya' should be attributed to?

i never could really believe that it was all just a coincidence between them. Ja'qen went too far out of his way to get her to trust him, even marginally. And then practically gave her a 'get out of jail free' coin. I've always believed that they want HER for something - not No One - but Arya Stark. 

[gregg22]

14 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

This is really intriguing to me gregg22, who do you think the 'price of Arya' should be attributed to?

i never could really believe that it was all just a coincidence between them. Ja'qen went too far out of his way to get her to trust him, even marginally. And then practically gave her a 'get out of jail free' coin. I've always believed that they want HER for something - not No One - but Arya Stark. 

Littlefinger. Just like it was for the Waif's father, the price is something you hold very dear. He wanted a daughter of Catelyn Tully, he got one, they got the other.

I agree with you as well, they need Arya Stark for something!

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, gregg22 said:

I recently mentioned this in another thread, that I think this whole "the red god is owed three lives " thing is completely BS.

Really, they never really give three back to the red god. Things get all wishy washy when Arya names him as the third, only as a ploy to get his help. In reality, if he is "no one" truly, then it shouldn't matter that she names  Jaqen Hgar, because he is not -Jaqen at all.

The dog and pony show was simply to recruit Arya. But moreover, I believe Arya was actually a price someone paid for another hit (possibly Ned). This is just their way of taking payment. They can't just snatch her up, she'll never just serve them that way. To me this is the purpose of the Waif's story, and Arya ended up with the FM much the same way.

I think we will see in future books that the FM arnt purely serving the MFG as they say. They are likely as corrupt as everyone else in the story.

Who knows Arya may even learn they had a hand in her father's death

 

 

Well he does hold a knife to his own throat, if I recall. Arya is only persuaded after Jaqen refers to himself as her "only friend". Seems like he was ready to kill Jaqen, but really preferred not to. If we assume he was on a mission already, I imagine he'd have liked to finish the job before dying.

If the Faceless Men do have political interest in Westeros, it would make sense that they go after Arya in particular, and the names she's ready to offer.

[Arya_Stupid!]

1 hour ago, gregg22 said:

Littlefinger. Just like it was for the Waif's father, the price is something you hold very dear. He wanted a daughter of Catelyn Tully, he got one, they got the other.

I agree with you as well, they need Arya Stark for something!

But wouldn't the 'price', in this case Arya, have to be something that Baelish would be personally loathe to give up? In this case would it not be more apt if they demanded Sansa (the Tully daughter he actually wants) instead of the one that never even met him? At least i can't recall that they do.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

9 hours ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

This is really intriguing to me gregg22, who do you think the 'price of Arya' should be attributed to?

i never could really believe that it was all just a coincidence between them. Ja'qen went too far out of his way to get her to trust him, even marginally. And then practically gave her a 'get out of jail free' coin. I've always believed that they want HER for something - not No One - but Arya Stark. 

If anyone I think Arya sold her own life to the many faced God by accepted the killings. 

10 hours ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

My question is, why does he even care what the creepy Red God wants anyways?

If he is a faithful/dutiful Faceless Man, and not some sort of radical - does one God equal any other God in their eyes? I mean, do they accept that any and all Gods/Goddess' are merely facets of their Many Faced God? Or are certain Gods, ie: R'hollor, held as seperate entities to be appeased, but held apart from their pantheon for some reason? And if so, why?

Or is it just a part of Ja'quen's personal beliefs from who he was before he was No One? Or beliefs from the 'skin' he is wearing? He also seems to have a connection with the Old Gods as well. Whether this is a maneuver on his part to try and gain common ground with Arya or genuine, i really can't say.

 

the way that the FM try to stamp out all previous attatchments and beliefs, even small tells from Arya's person, but Ja'quen seems to show personal preferences in his naming of Gods... It just seems kinda fishy to me, i guess.

Yes 'the God of death ' would have been a more logical choice of words and it wouldn't have been suspicious that he didn't burn his targets. 

9 hours ago, gregg22 said:

I recently mentioned this in another thread, that I think this whole "the red god is owed three lives " thing is completely BS.

Really, they never really give three back to the red god. Things get all wishy washy when Arya names him as the third, only as a ploy to get his help. In reality, if he is "no one" truly, then it shouldn't matter that she names  Jaqen Hgar, because he is not -Jaqen at all.

The dog and pony show was simply to recruit Arya. But moreover, I believe Arya was actually a price someone paid for another hit (possibly Ned). This is just their way of taking payment. They can't just snatch her up, she'll never just serve them that way. To me this is the purpose of the Waif's story, and Arya ended up with the FM much the same way.

I think we will see in future books that the FM arnt purely serving the MFG as they say. They are likely as corrupt as everyone else in the story.

Who knows Arya may even learn they had a hand in her father's death

Haha yeah I agree,  I had thought of how her naming Jaqen didn't make sense too. I think the only reason that Arya would be part of a deal with the FM, would be if Ned, Catelyn or Jon made it,  since they're the ones who hold her dear. 

Ned wasn't killed by FM anyway, but by Janos Slynt and Ilyn Paine, who where instructed by Littlefinger to do so quickly. 

I do think that Arya sold her own life to the many faced God,  by giving the names to Jaqen. He wasn't repaying her a debt he owed her,  he was creating a debt she owed the MFG.

9 hours ago, gregg22 said:

Littlefinger. Just like it was for the Waif's father, the price is something you hold very dear. He wanted a daughter of Catelyn Tully, he got one, they got the other.

I agree with you as well, they need Arya Stark for something!

That doesn't really make sense. The killings in which LF was involved are quite clear. He instructed Janos Slynt and Ilyn Paine to quickly execute Ned, and he influenced Joffrey so he wouldn't be merciful. 

The murder of Joffrey was a conspiracy between Olenna Tyrell and Littlefinger,  using a chrystal from Sansa 's hairnet. Again no FM involved. Same with the murder of Jon Arryn. 

Besides littlefinger doesn't care one fig about Arya,  why would she be his payment. Arya basically sold her own life to the FM, by having Jaqen kill for her. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

12 hours ago, cgrav said:

 Agree, though I don't think the Faceless assassins get to choose their own targets. They're only serving the Many Faced God. 

Normally. This one was a little different, because he let Arya choose...

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

14 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Normally. This one was a little different, because he let Arya choose...

But would the three lives she saved be the only "payment" to the FM? We know their prices are rather high,  and usually not clear from the start. It seems to me like Arya was tricked into owing her own life to the FM, especially since she had more than three killed. 

Also the face he was wearing was presumably one of someone who's already dead,  and the name was probably not his own either,  as we learn when he tells her that a man has many names. Basically he'd only have to kill himself if she'd mentioned his real name,  or if she'd said she wanted to kill no one,  although in that case any other FM would have sufficed as well. 

It's just really weird and illogical. I think we're supposed to wonder about it. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

14 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the weird logic by which Arya earns her three deaths. According to Jaqen it's because she stole three deaths of the Red God of fire, but this doesn't make sense at all for the following reasons :

1. You can't steal a death from the gods because valar Morghulis ; all men must die,  and will,  at one point of another. They will get their death,  just not at that very moment. Why would the gods care at all when they have their due,  as Jaqen calls it? And if Arya gets 3 deaths for saving 3 lives,  why don't the maesters get to randomly pick someone to die whenever they save a life?

Because maesters don't share the FM's religious beliefs, duh.

14 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

2. If we'd accept the argument that indeed these deaths are "stolen" from R'hllor, was it really Arya who stole them? She didn't really save them,  all she did was throw them an axe, so they could save themselves. Jaqen who asked for her help,  and Rorge who probably swung the axe are responsible as well. They are all responsible for 'stealing' their lives. They could have decided to just sit there and die,  even with the axe,  which they wouldn't even have had if Jaqen hadn't asked for her help. 

They were going to die. Because of Arya, they didn't.

14 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 

3. Let's assume that all of Jaqen's argument does make sense,  and the Red God indeed must have his due... Then why doesn't he burn the men Arya names? This way their deaths would supposedly go to some other God,  and red R'hllor would still be as pissed off and hungry as he was before...

Except that for the Faceless Men, they are all really but different faces of the Many-Faced God.

[Tatheosian]

14 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the weird logic by which Arya earns her three deaths. According to Jaqen it's because she stole three deaths of the Red God of fire, but this doesn't make sense at all for the following reasons :

1. You can't steal a death from the gods because valar Morghulis ; all men must die,  and will,  at one point of another. They will get their death,  just not at that very moment. Why would the gods care at all when they have their due,  as Jaqen calls it? And if Arya gets 3 deaths for saving 3 lives,  why don't the maesters get to randomly pick someone to die whenever they save a life? You can't steal a death as long as a person is still alive,  since the gods haven't received it yet. If anyone is stealing deaths,  it would be the Others, Thoros of Myr, Dany/Mirri Maz Duur and Maester Qyburn/Cersei.

2. If we'd accept the argument that indeed these deaths are "stolen" from R'hllor, was it really Arya who stole them? She didn't really save them,  all she did was throw them an axe, so they could save themselves. Jaqen who asked for her help,  and Rorge who probably swung the axe are responsible as well. They are all responsible for 'stealing' their lives. They could have decided to just sit there and die,  even with the axe,  which they wouldn't even have had if Jaqen hadn't asked for her help. 

3. Let's assume that all of Jaqen's argument does make sense,  and the Red God indeed must have his due... Then why doesn't he burn the men Arya names? This way their deaths would supposedly go to some other God,  and red R'hllor would still be as pissed off and hungry as he was before... 

I can only draw the conclusion that Jaqen can't seriously believe this weird religious babble,  and probably wanted to turn Arya in a cold badass assassin all along,  by giving her a first taste of cold -hearted killing,  or something like that... 

What do you think? 

For 1. Yes, all men die at some point or another, but the three from the cage cart could have been saved. And for saving them, Jaqen thought it would pay the debt to Arya by giving her three deaths. You cannot compare Jaquen or a FM with a maester or a priest of R'hllor. They have different ways of life so what is normal for one category could not be for another.
For 2. The deaths were 'stolen' because they would have died in flames which is like a sacrifice to R'hllor. Anyone who dies in flames is a sacrifice to R'hllor like those who die drowned and are sacrificed for the Drowned God. If Arya would not have given them the axe they would have been killed by fire, so it doesn't matter f Rorge used the axe to crack a exit.
For 3. This one is tricky since the 'three deaths' didn't include burning by flames. It could be that Jaqen made a ritual before killing ?

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

16 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Because maesters don't share the FM's religious beliefs, duh.

They were going to die. Because of Arya, they didn't.

Except that for the Faceless Men, they are all really but different faces of the Many-Faced God.

Neither does Arya. If she believes in any gods,  it's the old ones. 

But they weren't dead yet,  with this logic, anyone who saved a life should get a death. Pod saved Tyrion, he doesn't get a death,  neither does Jaime, who saves him from the black cells. If there's someone around to save them,  it means they weren't meant to die. 

Then he should have said 'the God of death', he explicitly mentions the Red god,  who is such a hungry good,  and demands his deaths. Besides, up until now we've only seen the 'only death can pay for life ' when someone was literally already dead or beyond saving , which they weren't. They weren't even harmed by the fire. They weren't beyond saving,  because Arya proved they could easily be saved.