Valar Morghulis, Jaqen H'gar's weird logic

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

16 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I had an old piece of tinfoil theory around here somewhere... Ah!

What do we know/think we know...

1) Littlefinger influenced Jeoffrey to have Ned killed rather than let him take the black...

2) It was Varys who convinced Ned to confess and take the black... However, he begins the conversation by telling Ned he's a dead man, before going to great length to convince Ned to take the black for his daughter's sake (Sansa).

3)Varys has access to the black cells and even has an alter ego as a jailor...

4) Jaquen was in the black cells when he is given to Yoren.

5) Yoren runs into Arya at Neds execution because he thinks he's there to take Ned north.

6) Jaquen seems to know who Arya is without being told.

7) Arya overhears Illyrio telling Varys to have Ned killed, Varys protests and it's unclear what conclusion they reach (interestingly they seem to be coming in the secret entrance later used by Tyrion to escape, a difficult climb, one would think especially so for morbidly fat Illyrio, who always walks so lightly on his feet, seems suspicious)

8)Syrio Forrel is Jaqen Hagar... Huh what?!?

 

Do you believe Varys send Jaqen with Yoren to have Ned killed? To what end? He wanted the war to start later, and Ned being killed along the way would not change much I think. 

Damnit! Why are these books so confusing?! 

[Aryya Stark]

14 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

It's an interesting notion. Although they don't really seem like FM to me. They're more of the brutish violence type and seem to kill randomly,  where normal FM tactics seem more subtle,  with a bit of irony in them,  like the man Arya kills biting his own coin,  and Weese being eaten by his own dog. I'd like to read that theory though. 

Anyway they seem to be scared of Jaqen,  so I'm sure they've seem him do something that freaks them out, but I doubt anything or anyone else could scare them enough to obey, so unless Yoren was planning on having them trained by the Others,  I really don't see why he would even consider bringing them to the wall. 

Good point, there is a sort of grace to their killing. Tbh, I can't remember where I read the theory, most probably here, but the weeping sores stuck in my head. 

That's actually a good point. Mormont was the LC at the time, what the hell was he to do with them? Stick them in ice cells? At least if they were taken to Mel she would have burned them lol.

Seriously though, if they were part of a Varys plot, maybe he sent them to cause instability at the wall or to kill someone?   

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

46 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Good point, there is a sort of grace to their killing. Tbh, I can't remember where I read the theory, most probably here, but the weeping sores stuck in my head. 

That's actually a good point. Mormont was the LC at the time, what the hell was he to do with them? Stick them in ice cells? At least if they were taken to Mel she would have burned them lol.

Seriously though, if they were part of a Varys plot, maybe he sent them to cause instability at the wall or to kill someone?   

Yes, and Arya is taught that she may only kill her target,  and nobody else. Rorge and Biter seem to have missed that lesson. They also don't leave Harrenhal with Jaqen. 

Perhaps Yoren wanted to teach Ser Alliser Thorne a lesson in humiliation. I doubt he'd dare to invent cute names for them. 

Yes that could be,  although I wonder whether Varys knows what's going on north of the wall. If he's involved with the FM he might,  but I'm not wholly convinced of that. I also wonder what purpose it would serve to Varys having wildlings or Others attack the north /all of Westeros. His game still seems to revolve mainly around the Iron throne,  unless his ultimate game is total chaos and all contenders including the Targ (or blackfyre ones,  depending on what you believe) dead, there doesn't really seem to be a point to it. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Do you believe Varys send Jaqen with Yoren to have Ned killed? To what end? He wanted the war to start later, and Ned being killed along the way would not change much I think. 

Damnit! Why are these books so confusing?! 

I'm not even sure what I believe when it comes to Varys and Illyrio... I've always had a nagging suspicion that they are Faceless men themselves... Whether they had a plan to kill Ned or replace him with a look alike is sort of moot at this point...

The real question is what sort of motive do Varys and Illyrio have? I don't believe for a second that it's some "greater good", they use children who've had their tongues ripped out as spies for goodness sake. 

On one hand Varys claims to hate magic, on the other Illyrio calls him a sorcerer... Illyrio meanwhile gives Dany the Dragon Eggs, but admits to not expecting her to return... Neither seem to be what they appear, with Varys changing faces, and Illyrio always seeming too light on his feet... Then there is the odd bit that Varys seems to have given Aerys good council at least at times, for example trying not to get him to open the gates for Tywin, resulting in the sack of kings landing...

Is Aegon really Aegon? Is he a Blackfyre? Is he just some lookalike? 

What is even going on!?!?

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not even sure what I believe when it comes to Varys and Illyrio... I've always had a nagging suspicion that they are Faceless men themselves... Whether they had a plan to kill Ned or replace him with a look alike is sort of moot at this point...

The real question is what sort of motive do Varys and Illyrio have? I don't believe for a second that it's some "greater good", they use children who've had their tongues ripped out as spies for goodness sake. 

On one hand Varys claims to hate magic, on the other Illyrio calls him a sorcerer... Illyrio meanwhile gives Dany the Dragon Eggs, but admits to not expecting her to return... Neither seem to be what they appear, with Varys changing faces, and Illyrio always seeming too light on his feet... Then there is the odd bit that Varys seems to have given Aerys good council at least at times, for example trying not to get him to open the gates for Tywin, resulting in the sack of kings landing...

Is Aegon really Aegon? Is he a Blackfyre? Is he just some lookalike? 

What is even going on!?!?

Yeah they're very mysterious. I can imagine them being FM, or FM deserters,  because they both walk so lightly. Varys's known disguises seem to be normal disguises though. 

I don't recall them ripping the tongues of their little birds out? Perhaps I never picked up on that,  do you have a quote? 

I don't believe in the good of the realm bullshit,  I think nobody does,  not even in the books,  and not even Sansa lol. 

His schemes seem to go way way back to even before Robert's rebellion... Makes hou wonder why it took him so long to come to action... Sounds like there must be a bigger plan than just making a crown change head. 

[Aryya Stark]

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yes, and Arya is taught that she may only kill her target,  and nobody else. Rorge and Biter seem to have missed that lesson. They also don't leave Harrenhal with Jaqen. 

Perhaps Yoren wanted to teach Ser Alliser Thorne a lesson in humiliation. I doubt he'd dare to invent cute names for them. 

Yes that could be,  although I wonder whether Varys knows what's going on north of the wall. If he's involved with the FM he might,  but I'm not wholly convinced of that. I also wonder what purpose it would serve to Varys having wildlings or Others attack the north /all of Westeros. His game still seems to revolve mainly around the Iron throne,  unless his ultimate game is total chaos and all contenders including the Targ (or blackfyre ones,  depending on what you believe) dead, there doesn't really seem to be a point to it. 

Perhaps Varys knows who Jon's parents are and that would disturb his plans for Aegon? I just don't understand why he would send these three to the wall. Varys always has a plan and it had to be him who put these guys in the black cells so that they could be sent to the wall. 

Unless there is something else going on at the wall that we, the readers have not been privy to as yet. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

19 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Perhaps Varys knows who Jon's parents are and that would disturb his plans for Aegon? I just don't understand why he would send these three to the wall. Varys always has a plan and it had to be him who put these guys in the black cells so that they could be sent to the wall. 

Unless there is something else going on at the wall that we, the readers have not been privy to as yet. 

I don't think Varys knows... I don't really want him to know either,  I prefer it when Varys doesn't know everything. Poor Ned tried so hard to keep it a secret,  let him be able to keep one secret from Varys please

But I agree it's super weird that they're there, and I wonder what's behind it. I wish I could find out,  but I suppose we must have to wait until we're older than Old Nan, and the next book comes out... 

[Arya_Stupid!]

5 hours ago, gregg22 said:

"The Faceless Men don't post a list of prices on their door. The way it works, you go to them and tell them who you want killed, and then they negotiate the price. The more prominent the victim, the more difficult to get to, the more dangerous for the assassin and the guild, the higher the price."  - GRRM

Since there is some negotiating there it, implies to me that the thing you hold dearly isnt the only standard. Doesnt it also have to be something useful to the Faceless Men? In the Waif's case, a girl who does not age like a normal person. Clearly Arya is much more useful to them than Sansa.

 

 

Thanks for postin that GRRM quote gregg22

i agree that Arya would be more useful to the FM than Sansa would be, but i'm still having a problem with the Baelish of it all.  The price paid, still has to be something you have the authority to give, doesn't it? And, i understand that the price is fluid and subject to the whims of the FM themselves, but i just don't see any connections between Arya and Baelish that would facilitate the making of such a bargain.

Someone upthread said that it would make sense if Arya were, Ned, Catelyn or even Jon's price to pay, because they 1. Care for her and 2. Would have authority over her as elder family members. Which i agree with.

The idea that Arya somehow sold herself to them isn't so farfetched though. She seems cognizant of this as well, that the price of her safety is her servitude.

[Arya_Stupid!]

5 hours ago, rhoynestar said:

I thought "Red God" was an interesting choice of words by Jaqen as well. Jaqen specifically says this several times. To my knowledge Red God only refers to R'hllor, and does not equal the Many Faced God (although the Many Faced God probably includes R'hllor as one of its faces). 

I wonder if this hints that Jaqen, or the FM in general, has stronger ties to the R'hllor religion than we know, or is implying that in Arya's case R'hllor is the God that matters. A bit frightening given what we know of fanatics in that religion such as Melisandre. Arya later falls in with the BWB who are with Thoros, which increases the possibility that R'hllor religion will play some role in her story. 

That's what i'm wondering about too. We know R'hollor seems interested in Jon, so does it follow that this Red God has interests in Arya too? And if that is the case, what of the rest of the Starks? 

Or is it just a quirk of Ja'qens personality? 

 

I need more information George!

[sweetsunray]

You might be interested in the analysis I did regarding Arya's Valkyrie motif that is present throughout her arc from aCoK on. Valkyries were "chooser of the slain". Originally they were old hags serving Odin (of the many names and many faces/disguises) who selected which of the dead guys on the battlefield went to Odin's palace (Valhalla) or Freyja's palace. The warriors of Valhalla would fight again during Ragnarok. Aside from basically doing a triage amongst the dead warriors, they Valkyries served drinks in Valhalla (when there was no battle). They were cupbearers. But overtime the old hags became beautiful maidens (well you can't blame the warriors going to battle to alter to be served drinks by pretty young maidens as expectation in the afterlife they aimed for) and they acquired decisive properties. Valkyries didn't just remain the triage crew of the dead, they would decide who'd win the battle and which side would lose, who would die and live (on both sides) and still do the triage. As a consequence, Vikings began to dedicate battles to certain named Valkyries. Now, Valkyries were supposed to take the side of the army that Odin wanted to win. They knew and did his will. The whole Brunhilde legend (on which Wagner's operas are based) is about a fallen Valkyrie - she made a vow to always back a certain man's army, and at one point this goes against Odin's will, and Odin punishes her by making her a human shieldmaiden, but she manages to procure an ordonance on the prowess of the mortal man to whom she can only be married to.

What is the first thing Jaquen asks of Arya? To bring him a drink. Arya already acts as a cupbearer to Jaquen early on in aCoK, before the 3 deaths. Jaquen definitely displays a particular interest in Arya and he tests her for what I call Valkyrie aspects that George incorporated. There's no reason to believe that Jaquen follows Rh'llor. But the 3 lives that were saved would have been taken by Rh'llor, as he's a fire-god, but also one of the names and faces of the God of Many Names. Imo he's simply indicating which Name/Face was trying to claim 3 lives. He can't just use God of Many Names from the get go, since it would mean even less to Arya and might tip of others. He gives her those 3 names for a very cheap sacrifice. Arya throws an axe in the burning cage. The men save themselves basically. She just threw the tool at them to break out. What is interesting is that for that very cheap sacrifice, Arya in theory could have named Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey.

Arya doesn't start using the name list until after she's captured by the Mountain. She starts to do it on the grueling trip to Harrenhal after being captured. Jaquen was not there with her. But he wakes her at night, after he arrives at HH, and he probably did watch and spy on her for her sleeping ritual. That's when he offers the 3 names. Imo it's another test by Jaquen. He recognizes the mercy-naming aspect in her, and he wants to verify whether she only names people for personal revenge, or whether she is in tune with the Many Faced God or not. And certainly after the 2nd name, I do think Jaquen is convinced she's a type of Valkyrie - that she intuitively knows who's to love, and who's to die. So, when she names him, I do think he's afraid she has just marked him for death.

And then we get the battle at HH regarding the switch. While Jaquen has not actually have her fight. He does have her be present both at the "serving" of the weasel soup as well as the slaughter. More, in a way Arya is involved in the serving, because she helped to make the soup in the first place. And then very significantly, Jaquen wipes the blood on her shirt. He is dedicating the battle of the weasel soup to her. Shagwell does too afterwards. (BTW she has been serving drinks to Amory's men even before Roose arrives). After the battle she is named the official "cupbearer".

The cupbearing motif appears again when she gives the Wolves in the cages in the village of the Peace their water. Their suffering is ended by Anguy's arrows. Same thing again while with the Hound when they find the man of Pinkmaiden and later with the Hound itself. First thing she does when she arrives at the HoBaW, not even yet having seen the waif and the kindly man - offer a dying man (she's not aware of it) a mercy drink from the poisoned water. Immediately after she does that do the waif and the kindly man appear.

Now think about that - she knocks on the door and is let in without anyone guiding her in. The door just opens. And a kid of 10-11 is allowed to wonder around the place where there's a pool of poisonous water and a cup to drink from it, and the kid not even knowing what the pool is for. Several things could have happened - she could have drunk from it herself and die; she could have noticed the man's wounds and cry for help; she could give the dying man his mercy drink. Arya does the latter.

The question is whether all FM must have that power and intuitive connection to the Many Faced God, or whether only special FMs are supposed to have that ability. You can have 1000 FM but only 1 in 1000 of FM who has Valkyrie like intuition. It seems to be the latter case, since the legends about the First FM and the Second FM reveal a significant difference between the two. The First FM began to answer mercy prayers and murder prayers of their own volition, conceived of the Many Faced God concept even. The Second became an FM as part of his sacrifice to have his prayer answered. And it's possible that the FM have a First-Reborn prophecy, and that was the reason why Jaquen was interested. (I think the First was a woman too actually).

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

9 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

Thanks for postin that GRRM quote gregg22

i agree that Arya would be more useful to the FM than Sansa would be, but i'm still having a problem with the Baelish of it all.  The price paid, still has to be something you have the authority to give, doesn't it? And, i understand that the price is fluid and subject to the whims of the FM themselves, but i just don't see any connections between Arya and Baelish that would facilitate the making of such a bargain.

Someone upthread said that it would make sense if Arya were, Ned, Catelyn or even Jon's price to pay, because they 1. Care for her and 2. Would have authority over her as elder family members. Which i agree with.

The idea that Arya somehow sold herself to them isn't so farfetched though. She seems cognizant of this as well, that the price of her safety is her servitude.

Yes, the fact that Baelish gets hold of Sansa doesn't mean he sold Arya. In none of his murders the FM are involved. And his murders are basically spelled out in the books ;

1. Lysa poisons Jon Arryn because she loves Petyr,  and doesn't want Sweetrobin fostered on Dragonstone. Petyr tells her to poison him,  and probably supplies the poison. Lysa is not a FM.

2. Ned: Littlefinger tells Joffrey that mercy is for passes, and instructs Janos Slynt, and Ilyn Paine to perform the execution quickly. Joffrey is not a FM.

3. Joffrey: Ser Dontos gives Sansa a hairnet with gems that turn out to be poison. Olenna Tyrell takes one of them from Sansa's hair during the wedding feast and puts it in Joffrey's wine. Olenna is not a FM, but a dear old concerned granny who doesn't want her granddaughter married to an abusive madman. 

4. Littlefinger pushes Lysa through the moondoor. Littlefinger is not FM

1 minute ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

That's what i'm wondering about too. We know R'hollor seems interested in Jon, so does it follow that this Red God has interests in Arya too? And if that is the case, what of the rest of the Starks? 

Or is it just a quirk of Ja'qens personality? 

 

I need more information George!

Interesting question. Makes me wonder if FM have visions too. They give Arya a drink that's similar to the drink Dany gets before entering the HotU, and Brain's weirwood paste. Tastes bad at first,  but after that it tastes like home. 

 

[Nevets]

A few stray comments on this>  First, over-analysis is a dangerous thing!  Jaqen H'ghar was in the black cells because GRRM put him there to advance Arya's storyline.  It is known!

In all seriousness, Jaqen probably got unlucky or made a mistake.  The FM are human, not superhuman or divine.  No way are Rorge and Biter FM.  Their subsequent actions show them to be exactly what they appear: extremely dangerous criminals who were in the black cells for good reason.

Even if they were so inclined, neither Littlefinger nor anyone else can give Arya to the FM.  She's not theirs.  I suppose her parents could, in theory, but I know damn well they didn't.  Even in the Waif's case it was her father who gave her to the FM, and it was beneficial for her because the injuries from the murder attempt would have made it difficult to find a place for her.  I doubt the FM normally takes children, especially against their will.

I doubt that he knew who Arya was initially, but it is possible, especially if she knew about her sword traiing.  (Which he could have found out from Syrio.  The were both from the Free Cities, so could have known each other.)  In any case, Arya left behind enough clues that figuring it out wouldn't have been impossible.  As I point out in another thread,though, even when he gave her the coin, it was most likely that she would be reunited with her family.  In which case she would not be going to Braavos.

[Arya_Stupid!]

15 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 

Interesting question. Makes me wonder if FM have visions too. They give Arya a drink that's similar to the drink Dany gets before entering the HotU, and Brain's weirwood paste. Tastes bad at first,  but after that it tastes like home. 

 

I thought it was the candles that smelled like home to her?  Could be mistaken though. I wouldn't put it past them to have visions or dreams or even their very own Glass Candle.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You might be interested in the analysis I did regarding Arya's Valkyrie motif that is present throughout her arc from aCoK on. Valkyries were "chooser of the slain". Originally they were old hags serving Odin (of the many names and many faces/disguises) who selected which of the dead guys on the battlefield went to Odin's palace (Valhalla) or Freyja's palace. The warriors of Valhalla would fight again during Ragnarok. Aside from basically doing a triage amongst the dead warriors, they Valkyries served drinks in Valhalla (when there was no battle). They were cupbearers. But overtime the old hags became beautiful maidens (well you can't blame the warriors going to battle to alter to be served drinks by pretty young maidens as expectation in the afterlife they aimed for) and they acquired decisive properties. Valkyries didn't just remain the triage crew of the dead, they would decide who'd win the battle and which side would lose, who would die and live (on both sides) and still do the triage. As a consequence, Vikings began to dedicate battles to certain named Valkyries. Now, Valkyries were supposed to take the side of the army that Odin wanted to win. They knew and did his will. The whole Brunhilde legend (on which Wagner's operas are based) is about a fallen Valkyrie - she made a vow to always back a certain man's army, and at one point this goes against Odin's will, and Odin punishes her by making her a human shieldmaiden, but she manages to procure an ordonance on the prowess of the mortal man to whom she can only be married to.

What is the first thing Jaquen asks of Arya? To bring him a drink. Arya already acts as a cupbearer to Jaquen early on in aCoK, before the 3 deaths. Jaquen definitely displays a particular interest in Arya and he tests her for what I call Valkyrie aspects that George incorporated. There's no reason to believe that Jaquen follows Rh'llor. But the 3 lives that were saved would have been taken by Rh'llor, as he's a fire-god, but also one of the names and faces of the God of Many Names. Imo he's simply indicating which Name/Face was trying to claim 3 lives. He can't just use God of Many Names from the get go, since it would mean even less to Arya and might tip of others. He gives her those 3 names for a very cheap sacrifice. Arya throws an axe in the burning cage. The men save themselves basically. She just threw the tool at them to break out. What is interesting is that for that very cheap sacrifice, Arya in theory could have named Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey.

Arya doesn't start using the name list until after she's captured by the Mountain. She starts to do it on the grueling trip to Harrenhal after being captured. Jaquen was not there with her. But he wakes her at night, after he arrives at HH, and he probably did watch and spy on her for her sleeping ritual. That's when he offers the 3 names. Imo it's another test by Jaquen. He recognizes the mercy-naming aspect in her, and he wants to verify whether she only names people for personal revenge, or whether she is in tune with the Many Faced God or not. And certainly after the 2nd name, I do think Jaquen is convinced she's a type of Valkyrie - that she intuitively knows who's to love, and who's to die. So, when she names him, I do think he's afraid she has just marked him for death.

And then we get the battle at HH regarding the switch. While Jaquen has not actually have her fight. He does have her be present both at the "serving" of the weasel soup as well as the slaughter. More, in a way Arya is involved in the serving, because she helped to make the soup in the first place. And then very significantly, Jaquen wipes the blood on her shirt. He is dedicating the battle of the weasel soup to her. Shagwell does too afterwards. (BTW she has been serving drinks to Amory's men even before Roose arrives). After the battle she is named the official "cupbearer".

The cupbearing motif appears again when she gives the Wolves in the cages in the village of the Peace their water. Their suffering is ended by Anguy's arrows. Same thing again while with the Hound when they find the man of Pinkmaiden and later with the Hound itself. First thing she does when she arrives at the HoBaW, not even yet having seen the waif and the kindly man - offer a dying man (she's not aware of it) a mercy drink from the poisoned water. Immediately after she does that do the waif and the kindly man appear.

Now think about that - she knocks on the door and is let in without anyone guiding her in. The door just opens. And a kid of 10-11 is allowed to wonder around the place where there's a pool of poisonous water and a cup to drink from it, and the kid not even knowing what the pool is for. Several things could have happened - she could have drunk from it herself and die; she could have noticed the man's wounds and cry for help; she could give the dying man his mercy drink. Arya does the latter.

The question is whether all FM must have that power and intuitive connection to the Many Faced God, or whether only special FMs are supposed to have that ability. You can have 1000 FM but only 1 in 1000 of FM who has Valkyrie like intuition. It seems to be the latter case, since the legends about the First FM and the Second FM reveal a significant difference between the two. The First FM began to answer mercy prayers and murder prayers of their own volition, conceived of the Many Faced God concept even. The Second became an FM as part of his sacrifice to have his prayer answered. And it's possible that the FM have a First-Reborn prophecy, and that was the reason why Jaquen was interested. (I think the First was a woman too actually).

 

This is very interesting,  I need to let it sink in a bit. Why do you think the first FM was a woman? 

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

A few stray comments on this>  First, over-analysis is a dangerous thing!  Jaqen H'ghar was in the black cells because GRRM put him there to advance Arya's storyline.  It is known!

In all seriousness, Jaqen probably got unlucky or made a mistake.  The FM are human, not superhuman or divine.  No way are Rorge and Biter FM.  Their subsequent actions show them to be exactly what they appear: extremely dangerous criminals who were in the black cells for good reason.

Even if they were so inclined, neither Littlefinger nor anyone else can give Arya to the FM.  She's not theirs.  I suppose her parents could, in theory, but I know damn well they didn't.  Even in the Waif's case it was her father who gave her to the FM, and it was beneficial for her because the injuries from the murder attempt would have made it difficult to find a place for her.  I doubt the FM normally takes children, especially against their will.

I doubt that he knew who Arya was initially, but it is possible, especially if she knew about her sword traiing.  (Which he could have found out from Syrio.  The were both from the Free Cities, so could have known each other.)  In any case, Arya left behind enough clues that figuring it out wouldn't have been impossible.  As I point out in another thread,though, even when he gave her the coin, it was most likely that she would be reunited with her family.  In which case she would not be going to Braavos.

I still think it's strange that Yoren picks Rorge and Biter for the wall. There's really no place where people that crazy are useful,  except in service of brutes like the Mountain and Vargo Hoat. I think all of the Bloody Mummers are a bit over the top to be fair,  they make the mountain's men look like little kittens... 

Not sure if we're over analysing Jaqen though... He is a mystery,  and it's definitely strange he shows such an interest in Arya from the start. 

2 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

I thought it was the candles that smelled like home to her?  Could be mistaken though. I wouldn't put it past them to have visions or dreams or even their very own Glass Candle.

I think you're right. I was thinking about the drink they gave her when she went blind,  but I might have confused that. Still.. Things that smell /taste like home seem to be related to visions,  so the question still stands I think. 

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

This is very interesting,  I need to let it sink in a bit. Why do you think the first FM was a woman?

Several elements:

The First is able to move freely in the mines and majorly overhears the prayers of those suffering. So, the First at the very least was not a slave themselves. They also dislike slavery (FM are suggested to have something to do with the Doom of Valyria) and therefore settled in Braavos the free city that was craeted by escaped slaves. The escapes slaves came first, FM not long after. So, the First was not a slave master or someone who oversaw slaves. That only leaves for someone who was free to move amongst the mines and slaves for caretaking purposes.

The FM's main weapon is poison, and "poison is a woman's weapon".

The First starts out by giving mercy (euthanasia), not murder. The First moves to murder only later in time. This suggest someone who's not used to killing or slaying people, or not trained at least. Overall I have a black widow nurse impression.

Valkyries are female. There aren't male Valkyries. The First has more Valkyrie elements in their legends than the Second does. 

Once you combine all those elements I get the strong impression that the First was more likely a woman than a man. Sure, there can be male nurses/healers who are trained in knowledge instead of actual warrior training, but I'd say there's a 80% chance the First was a woman.

[Yollo/Hugor Hill/Tyrion]

 

3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Anyway they seem to be scared of Jaqen,  so I'm sure they've seem him do something that freaks them out, but I doubt anything or anyone else could scare them enough to obey, so unless Yoren was planning on having them trained by the Others,  I really don't see why he would even consider bringing them to the wall. 

The Wall needs every man it can get Winter is Coming. and it's easier to run away on the road than it is to run from the wall and you're way more likely to be caught and killed up there than in the Riverlands so it makes sense to tie them up. I am still very curious as to why Jaqen was in that cell although personally i doubt Varys was involved due to his hatred of magic and the fact Martin likes to show us how many interests are operating separate to one another and how they clash in fascinating ways without realizing it.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

16 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Several elements:

The First is able to move freely in the mines and majorly overhears the prayers of those suffering. So, the First at the very least was not a slave themselves. They also dislike slavery (FM are suggested to have something to do with the Doom of Valyria) and therefore settled in Braavos the free city that was craeted by escaped slaves. The escapes slaves came first, FM not long after. So, the First was not a slave master or someone who oversaw slaves. That only leaves for someone who was free to move amongst the mines and slaves for caretaking purposes.

The FM's main weapon is poison, and "poison is a woman's weapon".

The First starts out by giving mercy (euthanasia), not murder. The First moves to murder only later in time. This suggest someone who's not used to killing or slaying people, or not trained at least. Overall I have a black widow nurse impression.

Valkyries are female. There aren't male Valkyries. The First has more Valkyrie elements in their legends than the Second does. 

Once you combine all those elements I get the strong impression that the First was more likely a woman than a man. Sure, there can be male nurses/healers who are trained in knowledge instead of actual warrior training, but I'd say there's a 80% chance the First was a woman.

Thank you,  that's really interesting. I'll have a look at your thread tomorrow. 

5 minutes ago, Yollo/Hugor Hill/Tyrion said:

 

The Wall needs every man it can get Winter is Coming. and it's easier to run away on the road than it is to run from the wall and you're way more likely to be caught and killed up there than in the Riverlands so it makes sense to tie them up. I am still very curious as to why Jaqen was in that cell although personally i doubt Varys was involved due to his hatred of magic and the fact Martin likes to show us how many interests are operating separate to one another and how they clash in fascinating ways without realizing it.

I think these guys are too difficult to control,  even on the wall. They murder randomly without caring about consequences especially Biter. They'd do best to just set him lose north of the wall,  and hope he'll eat the Others, and doesn't come back to eat them. 

The FM aren't too fond of magic either I really don't know if Varys could be involved with them,  when it comes to Varys I'm keeping all the options open. 

[Duncan_The_Short]

3 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I think these guys are too difficult to control,  even on the wall. They murder randomly without caring about consequences especially Biter. They'd do best to just set him lose north of the wall,  and hope he'll eat the Others, and doesn't come back to eat them. 

I think the NW recruiters aren't picky, they take whoever says they're willing to join.  Of course he knows that these three only agree because they're planning to escape on the way, as evidenced by the fact that he leaves them locked up all the time, but his job is to deliver men to The Wall not make sure they do what they're supposed to do once they get there. 

[Yollo/Hugor Hill/Tyrion]

in response to the OP 

1. While it may be true that many people give the Many Faced God's "gift" in the world the FM only ever seem to take issue with it when the servants of the Many-Faced God do it as in AFfC when Arya kills that guy. It only seems to matter that His servants give the "gift" to those whom the price has been paid for. Arya saved three lives, 3 lives are owed to the Many Faced God, now three lives must be taken and since Arya saved them Arya must name them. It could also be because she saved a servant of the MFG the lives are owed to her. it is suggested in books 4-5 that the Braavosi all serve the MFG to some degree such as when the sailors who took Arya to the House of Black and White they asked her to remember their names and the service they did her plus the fact they seem to be able to get Arya a job anywhere in Braavos be it a mummer or selling clams and the people there know who she is. It is unclear if they get anything in return but they could and the FM are known to pay their debts even more than the Lannisters.

2. If Arya hadn't thrown the axe they would have died.

3. The FM believe that all the gods men worship are really the same god with a hundred different faces, and they are his instrument. Therefore killing a man by any means is offering him up as a gift to the same god. As to why he mentions the Red god specifically:

Quote

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, i swear it" He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it." (ACoK pg. 685)

This seems to suggest that there is only one fire god in all of Planetos as none others are ever mentioned and if that god isn't the god of death i don't know who is. As to your question about why Jaqen is so religious, all of the FM we interact with are shown to be so devoted to the MFG that they are literally no one. They are one of the few groups that i actually count on to be consistent in their goals, despite my not having any idea what those goals may be.

What I'm wondering is how does Jaqen change his face and hair differently than all the other FM in Braavos do without cutting off his current face? Do we just not know how yet and will Arya learn it? Or is Jaqen a trained sorcerer besides a FM and that's how he did it, or are all FM trained in sorcery?

[Aryya Stark]

8 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I don't think Varys knows... I don't really want him to know either,  I prefer it when Varys doesn't know everything. Poor Ned tried so hard to keep it a secret,  let him be able to keep one secret from Varys please

But I agree it's super weird that they're there, and I wonder what's behind it. I wish I could find out,  but I suppose we must have to wait until we're older than Old Nan, and the next book comes out... 

lol.