Valar Morghulis, Jaqen H'gar's weird logic

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

37 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Neither does Arya. If she believes in any gods,  it's the old ones. 

Sigh... It's not Arya who says "I saved three, you owe me three deaths, gimme", it's Jaqen who makes the offer. Jaqen acts according to his own belief.

37 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

But they weren't dead yet,  with this logic, anyone who saved a life should get a death. Pod saved Tyrion, he doesn't get a death,

And who's the Faceless Man in that equation, who'd make Pod that offer?

37 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

 neither does Jaime, who saves him from the black cells. If there's someone around to save them,  it means they weren't meant to die. 

Then he should have said 'the God of death', he explicitly mentions the Red god,  who is such a hungry good,  and demands his deaths.

And, again, since in the FM theology they are all the same god, the Red God got his due. Because he's also the Stranger and the Drowned God and that horsefaced god that the Dothraki worship and all other gods, as well.

37 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Besides, up until now we've only seen the 'only death can pay for life ' when someone was literally already dead or beyond saving , which they weren't. They weren't even harmed by the fire. They weren't beyond saving,  because Arya proved they could easily be saved. 

Seems as if your "weird logic" means "Jaqen H'Ghar's beliefs aren't identical with Mirri Maz Duur's beliefs". It's not "weird logic", it's that there exist different religions in that world. And different religions differ.

[cgrav]

I don't see any need for digging into Jaqen saying "Red God". The Many Faced God is death itself made a deity. I think his comment is meant almost facetiously, because he views all of the gods as just forces revolving around the god of death, and they don't need to be appeased specifically. It's like, there was a fire, so I guess the Red God wanted those ones, but they all go to the same place anyway. As long as someone dies, the Many Faced God is happy, it appears.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

13 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Sigh... It's not Arya who says "I saved three, you owe me three deaths, gimme", it's Jaqen who makes the offer. Jaqen acts according to his own belief.

And who's the Faceless Man in that equation, who'd make Pod that offer?

And, again, since in the FM theology they are all the same god, the Red God got his due. Because he's also the Stranger and the Drowned God and that horsefaced god that the Dothraki worship and all other gods, as well.

Seems as if your "weird logic" means "Jaqen H'Ghar's beliefs aren't identical with Mirri Maz Duur's beliefs". It's not "weird logic", it's that there exist different religions in that world. And different religions differ.

By themselves none of the things he says and does are that weird,  but the combination is. 

He talks explicitly about the Red god,  indicating that he does view him as a seperate deity from other deities, yet he kills in different ways himself. 

They were trapped in a cage with iron bars yes,  but their lives weren't forfeit yet,  the wooden roof or bottom could have caught fire,  allowing them to break it and escape before the barn collapsed. They weren't even touched by the fire when they escaped now,  so chances are they could've survived a little longer. 

And with our without an FM present,  anyone who saves lives should get deaths as a payment according to Jaqen's logic. The FM should make it their mission to repay anyone who saves lives with deaths. Arya doesn't get to pick a death only for his life,  but for those of Rorge and Biter as well,  even though those last 2 make up for that by themselves anyway. The God of death is getting his due by their hands more than once. 

Now if he just wanted to repay her for helping them,  he could just have said she could pick 3 deaths for the lives she saved,  without dragging the Red god into the argument. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

8 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I don't see any need for digging into Jaqen saying "Red God". The Many Faced God is death itself made a deity. I think his comment is meant almost facetiously, because he views all of the gods as just forces revolving around the god of death, and they don't need to be appeased specifically. It's like, there was a fire, so I guess the Red God wanted those ones, but they all go to the same place anyway. As long as someone dies, the Many Faced God is happy, it appears.

But many people are already dying because she saved them. Rorge and Biter are repaying happily,  no need for Arya to get some extra people killed, especially if it doesn't matter how they die. 

[cgrav]

I guess the Many Faced God is a glutton? I think the offer has to be intentional, and death that would not have occurred but for someone's appeal to the Many Faced God. Jaqen's incidental death was prevented, so an intentional death must be offered. Rorge and Biter aren't making offerings, they're just making a bunch of incidental deaths.

Remember she didn't offer a name in place of Jaqen, she un-named Jaqen if he would help her. Afterward, Jaqen I think does note that the debt was repaid many times over and he's done enough killing for her.

Anyway it's not like this is a law of physics. It's just what this group of people believe about the nature of death.

[gregg22]

12 hours ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

But wouldn't the 'price', in this case Arya, have to be something that Baelish would be personally loathe to give up? In this case would it not be more apt if they demanded Sansa (the Tully daughter he actually wants) instead of the one that never even met him? At least i can't recall that they do.

"The Faceless Men don't post a list of prices on their door. The way it works, you go to them and tell them who you want killed, and then they negotiate the price. The more prominent the victim, the more difficult to get to, the more dangerous for the assassin and the guild, the higher the price."  - GRRM

Since there is some negotiating there it, implies to me that the thing you hold dearly isnt the only standard. Doesnt it also have to be something useful to the Faceless Men? In the Waif's case, a girl who does not age like a normal person. Clearly Arya is much more useful to them than Sansa.

 

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 minute ago, cgrav said:

I guess the Many Faced God is a glutton? I think the offer has to be intentional, and death that would not have occurred but for someone's appeal to the Many Faced God. Jaqen's incidental death was prevented, so an intentional death must be offered. Rorge and Biter aren't making offerings, they're just making a bunch of incidental deaths.

Remember she didn't offer a name in place of Jaqen, she un-named Jaqen if he would help her. Afterward, Jaqen I think does note that the debt was repaid many times over and he's done enough killing for her.

This might be true,  but the whole thing seems a bit weird to me. I personally think that instead of repaying a debt to Arya,  he makes sure that she owes a debt to the Many Faced God ; her life and body,  like the waif.  And I think the purpose of the waif telling her that story,  was to show to Arya that she owes them for the deaths she received of Jaqen. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

17 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

By themselves none of the things he says and does are that weird,  but the combination is.

As the saying goes, weird is in the eye of the beholder. I have no problem with Jaqen's logic.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

2 minutes ago, gregg22 said:

"The Faceless Men don't post a list of prices on their door. The way it works, you go to them and tell them who you want killed, and then they negotiate the price. The more prominent the victim, the more difficult to get to, the more dangerous for the assassin and the guild, the higher the price."  - GRRM

Since there is some negotiating there it, implies to me that the thing you hold dearly isnt the only standard. Doesnt it also have to be something useful to the Faceless Men? In the Waif's case, a girl who does not age like a normal person. Clearly Arya is much more useful to them than Sansa.

The waif doesn't age because she works with the poisons. 

Ned was an important and difficult person,  and it's made very clear in the books how Littlefinger arranged his death, without help from Faceless Men. Him bargaining Arya into the deal doesn't make sense. 

Besides... In the house of black and white it's also made quite clear that the arranged bargain isn't always what it seems,  and does always seem to come with something that holds value for the one who makes  the deal. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

As the saying goes, weird is in the eye of the beholder. I have no problem with Jaqen's logic.

Let's agree to disagree then I think Jaqen is weird in more ways than one. 

[cgrav]

The wonderful thing about religion is that it doesn't have to make perfect sense. One religion can be construed in many ways. What's important is how it motivates its believers. 

[gregg22]

4 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Ned wasn't killed by FM anyway, but by Janos Slynt and Ilyn Paine, who where instructed by Littlefinger to do so quickly. 

Besides littlefinger doesn't care one fig about Arya,  why would she be his payment. Arya basically sold her own life to the FM, by having Jaqen kill for her. 

Jaqen made his way into the black cells for a reason, and he was in the party headed to the Nights Watch that was supposed to contain Ned Stark, till Joff had his head lopped off. Who else would Jaqen have been trying to get to?

I think we may taking the "thing you hold most dear" stuff too literally, maybe i overstated it. Its not explicitly stated, just gleaned  from the Waif's tale, both from what the father offered, and the cost the step mother could not bear:

"She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. "I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father's heir," the waif replied. "My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father's wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift."

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

11 minutes ago, cgrav said:

The wonderful thing about religion is that it doesn't have to make perfect sense. One religion can be construed in many ways. What's important is how it motivates its believers. 

I agree with that. I suppose I consider Jaqen to be too intelligent to be led by nonsensical things... What People say,  and what they think can be different things though. I don't think he truly believed this red god is hungry stuff though. And to me it's odd that the FM consider magic and dragons as the root of all evil,  and yet he decides to repay these 3 deaths to the God of the one religion that is all about magic and dragons... 

[rhoynestar]

15 hours ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

My question is, why does he even care what the creepy Red God wants anyways?

If he is a faithful/dutiful Faceless Man, and not some sort of radical - does one God equal any other God in their eyes? I mean, do they accept that any and all Gods/Goddess' are merely facets of their Many Faced God? Or are certain Gods, ie: R'hollor, held as seperate entities to be appeased, but held apart from their pantheon for some reason? And if so, why?

Or is it just a part of Ja'quen's personal beliefs from who he was before he was No One? Or beliefs from the 'skin' he is wearing? He also seems to have a connection with the Old Gods as well. Whether this is a maneuver on his part to try and gain common ground with Arya or genuine, i really can't say.

I thought "Red God" was an interesting choice of words by Jaqen as well. Jaqen specifically says this several times. To my knowledge Red God only refers to R'hllor, and does not equal the Many Faced God (although the Many Faced God probably includes R'hllor as one of its faces). 

I wonder if this hints that Jaqen, or the FM in general, has stronger ties to the R'hllor religion than we know, or is implying that in Arya's case R'hllor is the God that matters. A bit frightening given what we know of fanatics in that religion such as Melisandre. Arya later falls in with the BWB who are with Thoros, which increases the possibility that R'hllor religion will play some role in her story. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

6 minutes ago, gregg22 said:

Jaqen made his way into the black cells for a reason, and he was in the party headed to the Nights Watch that was supposed to contain Ned Stark, till Joff had his head lopped off. Who else would Jaqen have been trying to get to?

I think we may taking the "thing you hold most dear" stuff too literally, maybe i overstated it. Its not explicitly stated, just gleaned  from the Waif's tale, both from what the father offered, and the cost the step mother could not bear:

"She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. "I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father's heir," the waif replied. "My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father's wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift."

In that case is would be more likely that Varys arranged a FM for Ned, Arya or Gendry. Littlefinger already arranged Ned's death at the hands of Joffrey, Slynt and Ilyn Paine.

What is very clear is that the price is always very high. The Waif's stepmother probably had to offer her own daughter, herself or (perhaps, although I doubt it) her husband as a payment, which is why the price was too high for her. 

2 minutes ago, rhoynestar said:

I thought "Red God" was an interesting choice of words by Jaqen as well. Jaqen specifically says this several times. To my knowledge Red God only refers to R'hllor, and does not equal the Many Faced God (although the Many Faced God probably includes R'hllor as one of its faces). 

I wonder if this hints that Jaqen, or the FM in general, has stronger ties to the R'hllor religion than we know, or is implying that in Arya's case R'hllor is the God that matters. A bit frightening given what we know of fanatics in that religion such as Melisandre. Arya later falls in with the BWB who are with Thoros, which increases the possibility that R'hllor religion will play some role in her story. 

Yes it's the emphasis he lays on the Red god of fire that makes it suspicious to me. It just doesn't seem to really add up at all. Combined with the weird attention he's been giving Arya from the start,  I'm sure there's more going on than just a hungry god.

[Aryya Stark]

36 minutes ago, gregg22 said:

"The Faceless Men don't post a list of prices on their door. The way it works, you go to them and tell them who you want killed, and then they negotiate the price. The more prominent the victim, the more difficult to get to, the more dangerous for the assassin and the guild, the higher the price."  - GRRM

Since there is some negotiating there it, implies to me that the thing you hold dearly isnt the only standard. Doesnt it also have to be something useful to the Faceless Men? In the Waif's case, a girl who does not age like a normal person. Clearly Arya is much more useful to them than Sansa.

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

The waif doesn't age because she works with the poisons. 

Ned was an important and difficult person,  and it's made very clear in the books how Littlefinger arranged his death, without help from Faceless Men. Him bargaining Arya into the deal doesn't make sense. 

Besides... In the house of black and white it's also made quite clear that the arranged bargain isn't always what it seems,  and does always seem to come with something that holds value for the one who makes  the deal. 

I don't think the FM had anything to do with Ned's death. Anyway, I always assumed that Varys was the one who arranged for Jaquen &co. to stay in the dark cells and depart with Yoren.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

34 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

 

I don't think the FM had anything to do with Ned's death. Anyway, I always assumed that Varys was the one who arranged for Jaquen &co. to stay in the dark cells and depart with Yoren.

Yeah no way FM were involved in that. 

It's really strange that Yoren picks Rorge and Biter from the black cells. There's no way they're going to function on the Wall... Why didn't he just leave them for the King's Justice? I mean rapists and murderers are one thing,  Rorge and Biter quite another. Biter eats people. Who would want a creature like that sleeping next to him? 

[Aryya Stark]

3 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yeah no way FM were involved in that. 

It's really strange that Yoren picks Rorge and Biter from the black cells. There's no way they're going to function on the Wall... Why didn't he just leave them for the King's Justice? I mean rapists and murderers are one thing,  Rorge and Biter quite another. Biter eats people. Who would want a creature like that sleeping next to him? 

Precisely! Yoren, also keeps them in their cage during the whole journey, which really says a lot.

I read a theory a while back, that all three of them were Faceless Men. Biter had weeping sores which was something the waif told Arya she could do to disguise her. Also when Biter ate Brienne, his mouth opened unbelievably wide. I can't remember what the arguments for why Rorge was also an FM were, but they were good observations and I was convinced.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

I had an old piece of tinfoil theory around here somewhere... Ah!

What do we know/think we know...

1) Littlefinger influenced Jeoffrey to have Ned killed rather than let him take the black...

2) It was Varys who convinced Ned to confess and take the black... However, he begins the conversation by telling Ned he's a dead man, before going to great length to convince Ned to take the black for his daughter's sake (Sansa).

3)Varys has access to the black cells and even has an alter ego as a jailor...

4) Jaquen was in the black cells when he is given to Yoren.

5) Yoren runs into Arya at Neds execution because he thinks he's there to take Ned north.

6) Jaquen seems to know who Arya is without being told.

7) Arya overhears Illyrio telling Varys to have Ned killed, Varys protests and it's unclear what conclusion they reach (interestingly they seem to be coming in the secret entrance later used by Tyrion to escape, a difficult climb, one would think especially so for morbidly fat Illyrio, who always walks so lightly on his feet, seems suspicious)

8)Syrio Forrel is Jaqen Hagar... Huh what?!?

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 hour ago, Aryya Stark said:

Precisely! Yoren, also keeps them in their cage during the whole journey, which really says a lot.

I read a theory a while back, that all three of them were Faceless Men. Biter had weeping sores which was something the waif told Arya she could do to disguise her. Also when Biter ate Brienne, his mouth opened unbelievably wide. I can't remember what the arguments for why Rorge was also an FM were, but they were good observations and I was convinced.

It's an interesting notion. Although they don't really seem like FM to me. They're more of the brutish violence type and seem to kill randomly,  where normal FM tactics seem more subtle,  with a bit of irony in them,  like the man Arya kills biting his own coin,  and Weese being eaten by his own dog. I'd like to read that theory though. 

Anyway they seem to be scared of Jaqen,  so I'm sure they've seem him do something that freaks them out, but I doubt anything or anyone else could scare them enough to obey, so unless Yoren was planning on having them trained by the Others,  I really don't see why he would even consider bringing them to the wall.