Cron Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said: Ye I agree. It was made this way because it was visually appealing and also i suspect because of the frustration of seeing Ramsay's trap and the death of his brother, that he could not save him. He wanted to do anything and lost control of his actions because of the feelings from that moment There's also a strong parallel to Arya and the Frey pies, and Sansa crossing off Ramsay, in my opinion. Since we first saw Arya and the Frey pie scene, there's been a lot of speculation about what it "really means," and what it "tells us" about her character, personality and/or state of mind. But, in my opinion, uh, no. I don't believe it tells us any of those things about Arya. I believe Arya made the Frey pies for the shock value it gave to the audience, The End, and I predict next season she will essentially be the same Arya she has been for the last several seasons. Same with Sansa crossing off Ramsay. Do I believe Sansa is "the new Ramsay" b/c of how she killed Ramsay??? Absolutely not. I believe it happened the way it did for pure shock and spectacle value, that Sansa is still pretty much the same person she was before she did that, and we are extremely unlikely to see her do something like that again. My belief is that we will see virtually (if not literally) NO consequences or ramifications about what she did, how it "affected" her, or what it means for her character development. In fact, I'll be pretty surprised if it's ever even mentioned again, except maybe in passing conversation, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 17 hours ago, Cron said: There's also a strong parallel to Arya and the Frey pies, and Sansa crossing off Ramsay, in my opinion. Since we first saw Arya and the Frey pie scene, there's been a lot of speculation about what it "really means," and what it "tells us" about her character, personality and/or state of mind. But, in my opinion, uh, no. I don't believe it tells us any of those things about Arya. I believe Arya made the Frey pies for the shock value it gave to the audience, The End, and I predict next season she will essentially be the same Arya she has been for the last several seasons. Same with Sansa crossing off Ramsay. Do I believe Sansa is "the new Ramsay" b/c of how she killed Ramsay??? Absolutely not. I believe it happened the way it did for pure shock and spectacle value, that Sansa is still pretty much the same person she was before she did that, and we are extremely unlikely to see her do something like that again. My belief is that we will see virtually (if not literally) NO consequences or ramifications about what she did, how it "affected" her, or what it means for her character development. In fact, I'll be pretty surprised if it's ever even mentioned again, except maybe in passing conversation, I guess. Yes, unfortunately I agree. I hope there is more story for both Sansa and Arya next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Of Westeros Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 @Cron I agree with you. Killing a person is a big deal even for those who got used to it like soldiers. Even the tough guy The Hound remembered the first man he killed. Sansa seems not disturbed at all and I do agree that the name of ramsay will be forgotten like the snows of yester-year as if it never happened. Til recently I was sure that Sansa will cross off LF as well, but is some civilized manner. But now with all these spoilers I don't know what to expect. For me Arya killing Frey wasn't that shocking after what she did to Ser Meryn Trant. That is why I suppose she will continue this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 2, 2016 Author Share Posted November 2, 2016 On 10/31/2016 at 9:06 PM, Meera of Tarth said: Yes, unfortunately I agree. I hope there is more story for both Sansa and Arya next season. And it's b/c of these kinds of things that I wish GRRM was fully in charge of the show (not every minor detial, but the main story arcs) I love the show, and there are a lot of things they have done extremely well, but I have a strong opinion that the reason the books are so successful is the characters. Indeed, I have read many, many books, and GRRM's characters and character development are the best I've ever read in my entire life. I believe the show goes astray when it starts to place higher priority on anything other than characters and character development, and I believe Jon's, Arya's, and Sansa's stories over the last two seasons all ran into such problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 2, 2016 Author Share Posted November 2, 2016 16 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said: @Cron I agree with you. Killing a person is a big deal even for those who got used to it like soldiers. Even the tough guy The Hound remembered the first man he killed. Sansa seems not disturbed at all and I do agree that the name of ramsay will be forgotten like the snows of yester-year as if it never happened. Til recently I was sure that Sansa will cross off LF as well, but is some civilized manner. But now with all these spoilers I don't know what to expect. For me Arya killing Frey wasn't that shocking after what she did to Ser Meryn Trant. That is why I suppose she will continue this way. Good stuff, but I'm not saying I was shocked by Arya killing Walder Frey, or even his two sons. The intended shock, I believe, was the Frey pie itself, which went way beyond Arya's missions of "vigilante justice" and, in my strong opinion, was extremely unrealistic as well. (I know it's been discussed many times, including by me, but it just struck me as very implausible that a supposedly deadly and highly trained assassin would go to all that trouble and accept all that additional risk to her "mission" just for the very fleeting and momentary gratification of seeing the look on Walder's face for a split second before she crossed him off, too. But of course, having Arya simply slip into the castle wearing someone else's face, cross off all three and be gone again within 10 or 15 minutes before anyone even knew she was there, which WOULD have been the work of a truly deadly assassin, would have been boring and would not have had a "Game of Thrones shock moment," so we got Frey pies instead. I will be VERY surprised if Arya makes such Frey pies in the books, but even if she does I assume GRRM will lay a lot more detailed foundation for it before it actually happens.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 14 hours ago, Cron said: Good stuff, but I'm not saying I was shocked by Arya killing Walder Frey, or even his two sons. The intended shock, I believe, was the Frey pie itself, which went way beyond Arya's missions of "vigilante justice" and, in my strong opinion, was extremely unrealistic as well. I don't think Frey pie was intended to shock people. I think D&D simply wanted to give a nod to book readers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 16 hours ago, Cron said: Good stuff, but I'm not saying I was shocked by Arya killing Walder Frey, or even his two sons. The intended shock, I believe, was the Frey pie itself, which went way beyond Arya's missions of "vigilante justice" and, in my strong opinion, was extremely unrealistic as well. (I know it's been discussed many times, including by me, but it just struck me as very implausible that a supposedly deadly and highly trained assassin would go to all that trouble and accept all that additional risk to her "mission" just for the very fleeting and momentary gratification of seeing the look on Walder's face for a split second before she crossed him off, too. But of course, having Arya simply slip into the castle wearing someone else's face, cross off all three and be gone again within 10 or 15 minutes before anyone even knew she was there, which WOULD have been the work of a truly deadly assassin, would have been boring and would not have had a "Game of Thrones shock moment," so we got Frey pies instead. I will be VERY surprised if Arya makes such Frey pies in the books, but even if she does I assume GRRM will lay a lot more detailed foundation for it before it actually happens.) so true. I'm tired of the Arya psycho-sadist assassin plot all the time. Let her be a quiet assassin, not a killing machine, especially in the finales qhen she just gets satisfied if she just cuts sb's throat and and takes out the eyes from its sockets! This is not the normal Arya. Just shocking Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 On 11/2/2016 at 5:19 PM, Dragon in the North said: I don't think Frey pie was intended to shock people. I think D&D simply wanted to give a nod to book readers. It wasn't just a nod to book readers, the Rat Cook and "people pies" were discussed in the show, too. In the show, Bran tells Meera and the others the story, and Bran says the reason the Rat Cook was cursed was b/c he violated guest rights. And that's the connection to Walder Frey, since he violated guest rights (to put it mildly) at the Red Wedding, which is exactly why Arya crossed him off. I respect your point of view, and I admit I can't read the showrunners' minds, but I still believe it was mostly (if not exclusively) for shock value. As I've said, it would be far more realistic for Arya to slip in, cross 'em off, and slip back out again, but that would have been mundane, that would not be "Game of Thrones," that would not get people talking about it around the water cooler the next day, so we got Frey pies instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 On 11/2/2016 at 6:22 PM, Meera of Tarth said: so true. I'm tired of the Arya psycho-sadist assassin plot all the time. Let her be a quiet assassin, not a killing machine, especially in the finales qhen she just gets satisfied if she just cuts sb's throat and and takes out the eyes from its sockets! This is not the normal Arya. Just shocking Arya. And here's the thing: If Arya is going to be an assassin, it is far more realistic for her to play to her strengths, which are deception (Faceless Man tricks) and stealth. As I've said, for her to make those pies involved enormous risk to herself and her "mission," and she IS NOT a physically powerful person. Granted, she's a skilled fighter, especially with a sword, knife or staff, true, but NOT in grappling, wrestling or hand to hand combat, and she is physically small even for a girl, so almost any man of any decent size and strength (any average man, in fact) could have easily overpowered her if she had been discovered. In sum, the risk she took in making that pie was astronomical, and for what? So she could have the satisfaction of seeing the look on Walder's face for about one second. It just wasn't smart. By the way, perhaps I'm slow today, but who is "sb"? Stannis or Shireen Baratheon are all I can think of with those initials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 8 hours ago, Cron said: And here's the thing: If Arya is going to be an assassin, it is far more realistic for her to play to her strengths, which are deception (Faceless Man tricks) and stealth. As I've said, for her to make those pies involved enormous risk to herself and her "mission," and she IS NOT a physically powerful person. Granted, she's a skilled fighter, especially with a sword, knife or staff, true, but NOT in grappling, wrestling or hand to hand combat, and she is physically small even for a girl, so almost any man of any decent size and strength (any average man, in fact) could have easily overpowered her if she had been discovered. In sum, the risk she took in making that pie was astronomical, and for what? So she could have the satisfaction of seeing the look on Walder's face for about one second. It just wasn't smart. By the way, perhaps I'm slow today, but who is "sb"? Stannis or Shireen Baratheon are all I can think of with those initials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 On 11/4/2016 at 10:22 AM, Meera of Tarth said: On 11/4/2016 at 10:22 AM, Meera of Tarth said: Nice. Okay, so who is "sb"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 5 minutes ago, Cron said: Nice. Okay, so who is "sb"? no idea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 On 11/5/2016 at 2:52 PM, Meera of Tarth said: no idea!! Oh, all right. A few posts ago you said Arya "just gets satisfied if she just cuts sb's throat..." Guess it must have been a typo, which happens, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 On 11/5/2016 at 1:46 PM, Cron said: Nice. Okay, so who is "sb"? On 11/5/2016 at 1:52 PM, Meera of Tarth said: no idea!! 15 hours ago, Cron said: Oh, all right. A few posts ago you said Arya "just gets satisfied if she just cuts sb's throat..." Guess it must have been a typo, which happens, of course. Was it simply an abbreviation of "somebody's"? These are the kinds of mysteries that make me lose sleep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 15 hours ago, Cron said: Oh, all right. A few posts ago you said Arya "just gets satisfied if she just cuts sb's throat..." Guess it must have been a typo, which happens, of course. sorry I didn't get the context....it was actually me who said that!! Somebody Spoiler . It has been Meryn Trant and Walder Frey. In a future Possibly Spoiler LF next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I will admit that IMO the portrayal of Oberyn on the show was more fun than the book character. Podrick too, oddly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 9 hours ago, Prince of the North said: Was it simply an abbreviation of "somebody's"? These are the kinds of mysteries that make me lose sleep! Well, sounds like this mystery is solved, so get to sleep!! HARR!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 6 hours ago, Richard Writhen said: I will admit that IMO the portrayal of Oberyn on the show was more fun than the book character. Podrick too, oddly enough. Yeah, i agree with both of those. Bronn too, at least to me (Bronn was okay in the books, but I really like his expanded role in the show, and the actor does a great job, I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 1 minute ago, Cron said: Well, sounds like this mystery is solved, so get to sleep!! HARR!!! Whew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 9 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said: sorry I didn't get the context....it was actually me who said that!! Somebody Reveal hidden contents . It has been Meryn Trant and Walder Frey. In a future Possibly Reveal hidden contents LF next season Aha! I never came across that abbreviaton before, but it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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