Seams, portals and bridges - The Magical Landscape of Westeros? What about islands?

[Seams]

On 8/15/2016 at 5:26 PM, ravenous reader said:

In the prologue, Ser Waymar's broken sword, which has been struck by the Others, is compared to 'a tree struck by lightning.'  ...

In the figure of Bran, we can identify a similar constellation of symbolic elements recurring: a tree, a boy, a lightning strike, a fall, shattered limbs, eyes feared closed forever opening again... 

The consequences of the 'lightning strike' which fells Bran are crippling and magically transformative at once. We know that the 'lightning strike' on Bran allowed the opening of his third eye beginning his journey to becoming a greenseer.  Has the lightning strike also marked him somehow as a port of entry for the Others? ...

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

 [Sorcery is] a sword without a hilt, with no safe way to hold it. But Melisandre had the right of it. Even a sword without a hilt is better than an empty hand when foes are all around you.

Is Bran the sword without a hilt?

'Windows to the past'..perfect for Bran!

This is the kind of stuff that keeps me coming back to this forum! Lost Mel's excellent info on trees struck by lightning - a perfect example of a magic "door" in the landscape and then you taking it a couple of steps further to show how GRRM uses the lightning strikes to show that a person or a sword can be made magical.

The quote from Melisandre and your possible connection to Bran is brilliant! This could be expanded in so many ways - I just realized that Joffrey was treated as a sword being pounded in a forge when they pounded on his back to try to stop him from choking. And then there's the broken sword that is Theon. Wasn't there a broken sword in the valuables that the wildlings turned over to the Night's Watch when they crossed under the Wall? I wonder if we'll see that again? So good.

On 8/16/2016 at 0:19 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

• "We need to talk about the ranging," said Jon. "I want us to be of one mind at the Shieldhall, we must—" 
•    The Shieldhall was one of the older parts of Castle Black, a long drafty feast hall of dark stone, its oaken rafters black with the smoke of centuries.

   

  ***

  >>>Now, compare all of this to none other than the Viking society and völva (which is what Val and Dalla are/were):

   

  ...

   

  >>> Basically, I think Shieldhall, a grand hall that is steeped with the history of warrior brothers and mead and feasts (getting drunk in this case, and Mormont's raven tells them to "Eat"), is Jon's personal portal to his underworld that he is about to face. He goes in to his portal and raises his warriors (the wildlings) and then leaves only to be stabbed by the NW traitors.

Yes! Great catch. Excellent. Jon has so many dreams that take place at feasts, and there was always a feast under way in the Celtic underworld. It makes sense that Jon would have his own feast hall, once he became Lord Commander. And that this hall would be a connection to the underworld. It all fits.

It is interesting that Jon says that the shields are returned to each Night's Watch brother, to be buried or burned with him when he dies. I've always interpreted this to mean that Jon's vow to the Night's Watch is no longer valid or binding after his death and likely resurrection. But is there another interpretation? (See below - maybe each knight needs his shield because the shield is a door . . . )

Theon and Dany also have feast dreams.

On 8/16/2016 at 11:33 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

...The 'Sluagh Sidhe', the fairy host who travel through the air at night, and are known to 'take' mortals with them on their journeys.

...It is interesting to note that many of the Irish refer to the sidhe as simply "the gentry", on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.

Is there a play on the word ‘gentry’ going on here?  It sounds very much like Gendry, who is of course tall and of noble appearance, looking so much like King Robert.  The tall and noble gentry synonymous with the hollow hills.

Interestingly, Gendry was knighted at High Heart and is now ‘Ser Gendry of hollow hill’.   Literally one of the gentry now.  We can also link him to the half weirwood, half ebony doors at Tobho's workshop. 

Maybe the Sluagh Sidhe took Tyrek Lannister. Finally an explanation!

I like the Gendry connection. (I hope there are good things in store for him, and that he doesn't get all bitter, as he seemed to be in the last Brienne scenes.) He is probably part of the "personified swords" group, in the vein of RR's Bran = hiltless sword example, my old Theon = Ice example, and the new notion that the Tyrells are beating on Joffrey as he lays dying the way that a group of smiths would beat a sword and pump the bellows together. If Tobho Mott was the smith who shaped Gendry, and Tobho Mott is the only one who can rejuvenate Valyrian steel . . . We know that Gendry's mother was blonde . . .

On 8/16/2016 at 2:57 PM, ravenous reader said:

A shield is not only a barrier separating opponents, but serves as a liminal or transitional space -- a hall --both separating and connecting the realms of life and death, as you indicated.  Ultimately, the 'Shield-hall' is an integral representation of the 'Shield-wall,' the ice wall or magical 'hinge of the world' overshadowing the action there. Once the Wall comes down, the game will start in earnest!

I love this cyvasse connection. I had noted that a shield is like a door when Brienne has her old Whent shield painted with Dunk's sigil after she sees a beautiful painted door with a castle landscape. (That's gotta be another one of our magical portals, for sure.) I was also thinking that Dany's "always the door to the right" instructions are like the instructions for reading a book. In languages that read from left to right, the next page is always the page to the right. So shields - doors - pages. A great set of linked symbols for sorting out magic portals in Westeros.

On 8/16/2016 at 5:46 PM, Maester of Valyria said:

Well if you're interested, there are almost certainly tectonic plate boundaries in the Narrow Sea, at the Bones, at the Frostfangs, and possibly at the Fourteen Flames and Mountains of the Morn.

sweetsunray has a well-reasoned prediction of an earthquake (or possibly just a landslide) at the Eyrie in the Sansa and the Giants thread. I wonder whether GRRM has actually worked out geological fault lines in Westeros?

5 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

‘’There are barrows everywhere in the north, Your Grace,’’ Ned told him. ‘’This land is old.’’

...

So interestingly, we have potential ‘seams’ or ‘portals’ dotted all over the north, with possible windows into the past in the form of the fallen.  Maybe including the King of the First Men and the King of the Giants, no less.  Certainly conjures thoughts of 'giants waking from the earth' anyway. 

                                                           ----------------------------------------------

With this new possibility, my next stop was look into the word barrow a bit further in the books.  ...

In fact, Long Barrow acts as a ‘portal’ of sorts for Mance Rayder when he travels to Winterfell for King Robert’s visit in AGOT.  He mentions this to Jon…

‘’The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone.  I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse.  All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was travelling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort.’’  

I wonder whether Lady Dustin's special connection to Barrowtown helps to explain why she is the person who took Theon into the crypt at Winterfell where he was reborn as Theon. She may be some kind of gatekeeper character, like the Freys. If she has a special ability to cross into the underworld as the nominal "landlady" of Barrowtown, maybe she will also play a special role in dislodging the Freys from the strategic "crossing" that they control.

I'm also interested in the giant association. When the wildlings attack the Wall, a giant dies in the tunnel, killing Donal Noye before he succumbs. This might be an example that underscores the idea of the barrow as a portal or passage way: both barrows and the important tunnel contain dead giants.

Very interesting example with Long Barrow. Mance is a unique character because he was in the Night's Watch, so he would have been able to use the Black Gate at one point. But maybe he can no longer open that gate. Yet GRRM doesn't want us to think of him as 100% wildling, maybe. So maybe Long Barrow is a special gate just for this hybrid character. He can kinda get through at a crossing, but not entirely. It will be interesting to see if Long Barrow is used by anyone else in the future, or if it's special for Mance and that one story of spying on King Robert.

2 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Love this thread.  Not sure what I believe but certainly fun to speculate!

I've always been interested in the Shadow Tower. It's far west compared the the shadow in the Far East (is there a link across the sea?). It's also sited near a massive gorge. I did wonder if this was the shadow that Dany would have to pass beneath to reach the light.  Despite a reasonable amount of NW being based at Shadow Tower, including Mance & Qorin, we know next to nothing about it.

For water portals, it's interesting to note the Winterfell godswood pool being described as bottomless.

Excellent examples. A massive gorge sounds like the kind of "tear" in the land that would need to be sewed up with a seam. It also reminds me of the description of the Hightower in Oldtown. People tell time based on the shadow cast by the tower.

I have no doubt those bottomless pools at Winterfell are going to be significant. Maybe, as you point out, they are portals to the underworld. Or somewhere.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

I've done a search on the use of 'shadow' and connections with certain locations and the unnatural / magic.

Shadow in location terms comes up in The Shadowlands of Asshai and The Shadow Tower.  We have the Shadow Council who rule in Ibben, another mysterious and secretive location where outsiders are not permitted to travel beyond the port without an escort. There's the less-mysterious Shadow City at Sunspear, although it is described as a labrynth with multiple gates to get through it, kind of like a puzzle - can't attribute any magic to it so far though.

We have the magic of the shadowbinders (Melissandre and Quaithe are both named as such), including Mel's shadow baby/assassin and use of shadow in glamours. Also the Shadow Men, also of the Asshai / shadowlands area who, according to the wiki, are covered in tattoos and wear red lacquer masks (like Quaithe).  

These shadow skills seem to originate or derive power from Asshai, although Mel says her powers also feel stronger at the wall - possible link between these sites, which could also be a possible connection with the Shadow Tower at the west of the wall.

[Maester of Valyria]

On 18/08/2016 at 0:15 AM, Seams said:

sweetsunray has a well-reasoned prediction of an earthquake (or possibly just a landslide) at the Eyrie in the Sansa and the Giants thread. I wonder whether GRRM has actually worked out geological fault lines in Westeros?

Indeed? Do you have a link to that thread; it sounds interesting.

I'm almost certain that he has: there's a huge amount of circumstantial evidence for the boundaries' locations.

[The Fattest Leech]

49 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

Indeed? Do you have a link to that thread; it sounds interesting.

I'm almost certain that he has: there's a huge amount of circumstantial evidence for the boundarie' locations.

Here ya go

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 0:15 AM, Seams said:

I wonder whether Lady Dustin's special connection to Barrowtown helps to explain why she is the person who took Theon into the crypt at Winterfell where he was reborn as Theon. She may be some kind of gatekeeper character, like the Freys. If she has a special ability to cross into the underworld as the nominal "landlady" of Barrowtown.

This certainly rings true having looked into Barrow 'Hall', Lady Dustin's seat at Barrowtown.  It is situated at the top of the biggest burial mound of them all 'The Great Barrow'.  So if she does possess a kind of gatekeeper ability afforded to her by being 'landlady' of the barrows and Barrowtown, her seat certainly seems worthy of such distinction.  To add to this further.......

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 0:15 AM, Seams said:

I'm also interested in the giant association. When the wildlings attack the Wall, a giant dies in the tunnel, killing Donal Noye before he succumbs. This might be an example that underscores the idea of the barrow as a portal or passage way: both barrows and the important tunnel contain dead giants.

Agreed.  As @ravenous reader and @The Fattest Leech discussed earlier, ''a hall may serve as a liminal or transitional space, both separating and connecting the realms of life and death''. There are also numerous examples in mythology of halls where the dead may arrive.  So in the same vain of Leech's Shieldhall idea, does Barrow 'Hall' now take on more significance?

Having looked at the barrows being potential magic seams or portals with the dead, this particular one seems a strong possibility, with the feasting or meeting 'hall' atop the hill in the form of Barrow Hall.  If indeed this is one of the seams of magic we're looking for, and it is a place where the living and dead can connect, then it's interesting that Theon speculates the King of the Giants is buried there.

Additionally, while there is no feasting at Barrow Hall, there was a refusal from Lady Dustin to hold a feast in honour of Ramsey's arrival. [she dislikes him and suspects his involvement in Domeric's death]  Interestingly, at the end of Reek III ADWD, she did meet with Theon there.  Reek was insistent to Roose that his identity be kept secret.  But much to his annoyance he was introduced to Lady Dustin as Theon Greyjoy.  The chapter then ends, and that was the end of Reek as a P.O.V, his next one is named 'The Prince of Winterfell'.

This meeting with Barbrey at Barrow 'Hall' atop the Great Barrow seemed important, was this perhaps the start of Theon's journey to be re-born, even before they went into the crypts?    

On ‎18‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 0:15 AM, Seams said:

So maybe Long Barrow is a special gate just for this hybrid character. He can kinda get through at a crossing, but not entirely. It will be interesting to see if Long Barrow is used by anyone else in the future, or if it's special for Mance and that one story of spying on King Robert.

I 'getcha kinda' reference.  It is a slightly tenuous example, but I thought it definitely worth a post considering my search pattern, seams - fell - hill - barrow.  Then Long Barrow giving Mance access to the 'other side'.  I like your hybrid idea, and I agree it will be interesting to see if anyone else uses the place in a similar way.  I can't help but feel the fact it is garrisoned entirely by the Spear Wives will be important moving forward as well.                 

A quick reflection on Long Barrows in our world is interesting.  As their name suggests they are the largest of the barrows, and therefore require a pathway in and out, so that they can continue to use the burial site until the chambers are full.  We now know these as 'passage graves' beneath the largest Long Barrows. 

The castle Long Barrow is surely the biggest of them all, could we perhaps find some 'passage graves' beneath the castle?  Or more to the point a 'passage' beyond or under the Wall?  Is this castle another 'seam' along the Wall?  And with tin-foil at the ready, could we link the giant beneath Barrow Hall's long barrow, to another potential giant in the passage graves of Long Barrow at the Wall?  The fact 'passage graves' are associated with Long Barrows at all is an enticing thought in itself.       

 Anyway, these are ideas I'm posting as I'm finding so all thoughts welcome.        

[Maester of Valyria]

22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Here ya go

Many thanks! I'll give it a read now.

[The Fattest Leech]

I just re-read this part of Sam in AFFC and it made me think of this thread. It seems that Sam has come to his own literal crossroads when he reaches Oldtown and he makes a decision that follows the river. We have some bird symbolism, we know Sarella/Alleras from Dorne is there, and the connection to the river-water theme which could be a Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers connection, and more Sphinx connections. It is like Sam is walking into a whole new world.

I also find it interesting that Sarella/Alleras is very good with a bow (the Summer Islander connection), but Sam was just improving his bow skills while on the Summer Isl. ship the Cinnamon WInd, and Bloodraven was known for his Raven's Teeth loyalist, and Jon is putting more emphasis on bow training at the Wall.

To me, the fact that Sam came to a crossroads and follows the path that keeps him linked to the fight in the north. (not that we had any reason to doubt Sam from Horn Hill)

• A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

  The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. Just beyond stood Scribe's Hearth, where Oldtowners came in search of acolytes to write their wills and read their letters. Half a dozen bored scribes sat in open stalls, waiting for some custom. At other stalls books were being bought and sold. Sam stopped at one that offered maps, and looked over a hand-drawn map of Citadel to ascertain the shortest way to the Seneschal's Court.
  The path divided where the statue of King Daeron the First sat astride his tall stone horse, his sword lifted toward Dorne. A seagull was perched on the Young Dragon's head, and two more on the blade. Sam took the left fork, which ran beside the river. At the Weeping Dock, he watched two acolytes help an old man into a boat for the short voyage to the Bloody Isle. A young mother climbed in after him, a babe not much older than Gilly's squalling in her arms. Beneath the dock, some cook's boys waded in the shallows, gathering frogs. A stream of pink-cheeked novices hurried by him toward the septry. I should have come here when I was their age, Sam thought. If I had run off and taken a false name, I could have disappeared amongst the other novices. Father could have pretended that Dickon was his only son. I doubt he would even have troubled to search for me, unless I took a mule to ride. Then he would have hunted me down, but only for the mule.

[Seams]

On 8/21/2016 at 1:58 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I just re-read this part of Sam in AFFC and it made me think of this thread. ... It is like Sam is walking into a whole new world.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

• The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpents. One had a man's face, one a woman's. Just beyond stood Scribe's Hearth, where Oldtowners came in search of acolytes to write their wills and read their letters. Half a dozen bored scribes sat in open stalls, waiting for some custom. At other stalls books were being bought and sold. Sam stopped at one that offered maps, and looked over a hand-drawn map of Citadel to ascertain the shortest way to the Seneschal's Court.
  The path divided where the statue of King Daeron the First sat astride his tall stone horse, his sword lifted toward Dorne. A seagull was perched on the Young Dragon's head, and two more on the blade. Sam took the left fork, which ran beside the river. At the Weeping Dock, he watched two acolytes help an old man into a boat for the short voyage to the Bloody Isle. A young mother climbed in after him, a babe not much older than Gilly's squalling in her arms. Beneath the dock, some cook's boys waded in the shallows, gathering frogs. A stream of pink-cheeked novices hurried by him toward the septry. I should have come here when I was their age, Sam thought. If I had run off and taken a false name, I could have disappeared amongst the other novices. Father could have pretended that Dickon was his only son. I doubt he would even have troubled to search for me, unless I took a mule to ride. Then he would have hunted me down, but only for the mule.

This passage does seem significant - so many elements seem to allude to other details, characters and symbols in the books. This post along with your comment about the horn on the Marwyn thread really help to frame - or at least hint at - some of what we might expect from Sam in the next book. It also shows us a little more about Oldtown as it appears in daylight - bustling and active but with that edge of menace, it seems to me: a Weeping Dock and a Bloody Isle, among other details.

I associate gulls with Littlefinger, who ate gulls eggs when he was a kid growing up in the Fingers. I'm not sure why they would be on the head and blade of King Daeron. I just checked the wiki to refresh my memory about the details of King Daeron, and found that one of his companions in the invasion and return to Dorne was an Oakheart who blew a horn. So there may be an allusion to the horn you mentioned in the other post about Sam. Daeron's life was saved from an assassination attempt by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, so maybe there's an Aemon connection between the statue and Sam. The Dragonknight used the sword Dark Sister. But the statue also reminds us of the longstanding resentment of the Reach for Dorne and vice versa.

The frog gatherers under the dock remind me of Meera Reed. Back at Winterfell, the Walders referred to Meera and Jojen as frogeaters, which I thought might be paired with "forgetters" for wordplay purposes. Meera had important background information that she shared with Bran in the form of a story. With the last name "Reed," I thought GRRM might be telling us that reading and stories are linked to remembering - the opposite of forgetting. So maybe people who eat frogs are rememberers? Maybe that's too convoluted. But it's interesting that one of Sam's first impressions in this city of study and reading is of people gathering frogs.

There were a lot of descriptive details about Oldtown In the prologue of Feast, of course. The emphasis seemed to be on the maze-like streets and the wet cobblestones. So it's probably very significant that Sam thought to consult a map before he tried to make his way through the city. It's certainly in character for him, a guy who relies on the written word to provide guidance.

In the prologue, Pate kept picturing himself leaving his maester studies to become an itinerant healer, traveling the countryside on a mule. Here we see Sam imagining the opposite course, riding TO the Citadel on a mule in order to become a maester. (And I wonder whether "slayer" and "healer" are supposed to be opposites?) But Sam also pictures losing the mule to a father who would care more about giving up the animal than giving up a son. Sam says his father would hunt him down to get the mule; Pate may have been hunted down by the Alchemist to get a key. I wonder whether the broken horn in Sam's possession is similar to the key that Pate stole? Maybe both of them open magic portals to the underworld. . . .

I like your suggestion that repairing this horn will be part of Sam's quest in Oldtown. I think he will learn to read runes, and that is very relevant to this thread, if the possible pun on "runes" and "ruins" is accurate. If he's reading the runes on the broken horn in his possession, I hope he will also read the runes on the old family armbands that Tormund wore before giving them to the pile of valuables collected by the Night's Watch to cover the food and supplies needed by the wildling refugees. I suspect those ancient armbands may have been another set of rings holding together a magical horn. I guess it might be a while before Tormund and Sam see each other again, though.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In case someone hasn't already mentioned it...

Mel mentions the Wall as being one of the "hinges" of the world. Seems to fit your topic here.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hi @Seams.  Continuing with my search for magical hollow hills, I have come across some cool possibilities.  The focus of this post however, is to posit the idea that all the important or magical old castles were built around or on top of hollow hills up and down Westeros.  I think the builders from the Age of Heroes were harnessing the magic from the hills and caverns and strategically placing their castles to do so.  I have just posted in LML's new thread about it as it ties in with some of his stuff, I tried to link your name but it wouldn't let me.    

He proposes that these legends from the past [Garth the Green - Grey King - Azor Ahai] were all greenseers.  If there were a bunch of greenseers building castles back then it would make sense to build around the magic of the hollow hills, no?

Anyway, here are some hilly castles...  

WINTERFELL

A magic hill/seam would support my theory that it’s the hollow hills and caverns that these castles were built/focused around.  

Bran comments on the hills at WF, saying he can ‘’climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level’’.  Confirming it is built right on top of/around a hill.

The crypts are huge, like the caverns of the hollow hills, and then there is the access to the lower levels.  I agree with LML's assertion that we will very likely find a weirwood throne down there.  I also think that it will be in one of these caverns that have CotF hallmarks stamped all over them. 

STORM’S END

When Davos smuggles Mel under the walls of Storm’s End, we get some clues that perhaps this was also built atop a hollow hill.  Here’s some of that text…

The seaward side of Storm’s End perched upon a pale white cliff, the chalky stone sloping up steeply to half again the height of the massive curtain wall.  A mouth yawned in the cliff, and it was that Davos steered for, as he had sixteen years before.  The tunnel opened on a cavern under the castle, where the storm lords of old had built their landing…………….

Then they were past, engulfed in darkness, and the waters smoothed.  The little boat slowed and swirled.  The sound of their breathing echoed until it seemed to surround them.  Davos had not expected the blackness. 

This cliff is huge and the cavern links to the castle.  It seems the storm lords used one of these caverns to build their landing.  With such an incline to the castle, there must be many a tunnel and probably more caverns.  Surely another weirwood throne is to be found in one of the other caverns underneath Storm’s End.

NIGHTFORT

There is the young weirwood growing there, so perhaps another strong root system, ala the hollow hills.  There is another passage underground, directly accessed from the castle in the form of the well that they use when Sam shows Bran and co. the Black Gate.  The Black Gate itself is magic and made of weirwood, a magic hill could explain this.  I wouldn’t be surprised if there was another cavern under there somewhere if one follows the tunnels further. 

And if this was one of the first castles built at the Wall [perhaps before the Wall was there?] the name [FORT:  A fortified building or strategic position] might imply that you have built your castle on high ground, or a hill.  This isn’t always the case throughout history, but a possibility here with our other seemingly strategically placed magic castles. 

HIGHGARDEN

While we haven’t seen anything of Highgarden, Garth the Green did us the honor of building his castle atop a hill overlooking the Mander.  There are always pipers and singers around, and the three weirwoods they have in the godswood are called the ‘Three Singers.’  It seems the singers never really left this place in one way or another.  Again, is there a weirwood throne under Highgarden?  In a cavern of course.

CASTERLY ROCK

Jaime’s weirwood dream took place underground, and in a cavern.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness.  Jaime had the sense of a vast space before him……  There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. ‘’What place is this?’’

‘’Your place.’’ The voice echoed

It’s not clear exactly where Jaime’s dream is taking place, perhaps the caverns beneath Casterly Rock?  Or as Ravenous Reader suggested, under the bowels of the Red Keep?  The latter would make sense considering the people he encountered in the dream.  Either way we have confirmed caverns under Casterly, and the World book tells us their godswood/weirwood tree is in a cave.

There is even a godswood of sorts, though the weirwood that grows there is a queer, twisted thing whose tangled roots have all but filled the cave where it stands, choking out all other growth.

And of course Casterly is well known as a hollow hill of sorts, with hundreds of tunnels and mine shafts, loads of access underground, caverns included.  The Rock is huge, so perhaps there are caverns deep below, that have been undisturbed for many years?  If so, weirwood throne? 

There are also the hollow hills without castles on top.  Jon and Ygritte's cave as well as High Heart and BR's cave, I think they are just as powerful and useful to greenseers.  The description of these caverns is very interesting, they are likened to Winterfell's Great Hall.  Here is Jon on his cavern....

The mouth of the cave was a cleft in the rock barely wide enough for a horse, half concealed behind a soldier pine….. Within the rock, the passage descended twenty feet before it opened out onto a space as large as Winterfell’s Great Hall.   

And Bran on his new residence.....

Hodor plunged ahead, hurrying after the child and her torch, deeper into the earth.  They passed another branching, and another, then came into an echoing cavern as large as the great hall of Winterfell, with stone teeth hanging from its ceiling and more poking up through its floor.

So even the normal hollow hills have Great Halls where greenseers could sit their thrones.  There is more to put together, but I thought I would post some of the stuff as I'm finding it, perhaps it may spark some more ideas?  

[Seams]

42 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Continuing with my search for magical hollow hills, I have come across some cool possibilities.  The focus of this post however, is to posit the idea that all the important or magical old castles were built around or on top of hollow hills up and down Westeros.  I think the builders from the Age of Heroes were harnessing the magic from the hills and caverns and strategically placing their castles to do so. ...

This is fabulous, WTS! This is exactly the kind of thing I hoped to learn through this thread.

What little I know of the Celtic underworld includes one theory that there was a series of hollow hills, each of which was an entrance to the Underworld. And it wasn't clear, apparently, if there was one big otherworld or a series of distinct areas. But only certain heroic humans were "invited" to enter by the gods. This could explain why characters like Jaime, Theon and Jon have dreams of crypts and underground caverns. Tyrion was in charge of drains and sewers at Casterly Rock, so he may have been in one of these special underworld realms already too, without the dreams. Arya was inside the Hollow Hill with the Brotherhood Without Banners.

In the Winds of Winter,

Arianne explores a Dornish cave that show obvious signs of a COtF / Old Gods function.

I suspect Harrenhal will turn out to be a central node for these hollow hills. Even if all the caves aren't connected underground, I suspect that they are connected by some pattern or geometry or wavelength or ley lines of some kind.

And here's a weird one: Craster's Keep has a cellar. There is a lively discussion going now about whether Craster made some or all of BenJen Stark's party of rangers into sausage. The sausage was stored in his cellar.

Since you bring up Casterly Rock's mines, I have another question for the group: How come we never hear about miners who work for the Lannisters? Wouldn't they need people to go down into the caves and break up rock walls to find jewels and gold? No one ever mentions prison labor or even a loyal workforce of people who have served the Lannisters for generations. I still have a nagging suspicion about alchemy and fake gold that Pycelle helped Tywin to create. If they were making fake gold, they wouldn't need miners to work in the tunnels and caves. Alternatively, if they were stealing fairy gold that was all in piles as in Gringotts bank vaults, they wouldn't need much of a work force for that, either. Or maybe your Hollow Hill discovery will point toward a different explanation.

I will look forward to reading more of your thoughts as they come together.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Thanks @Seams Good question about the miners?  This hollow hill thing is expanding by the day!!  I will reply soon, it's late. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hi @Seams the site won't let me quote directly [forum demons] but in reply to your last post, you said....

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What little I know of the Celtic underworld includes one theory that there was a series of hollow hills, each of which was an entrance to the Underworld. And it wasn't clear, apparently, if there was one big otherworld or a series of distinct areas. But only certain heroic humans were "invited" to enter by the gods. This could explain why characters like Jaime, Theon and Jon have dreams of crypts and underground caverns. Tyrion was in charge of drains and sewers at Casterly Rock, so he may have been in one of these special underworld realms already too, without the dreams. Arya was inside the Hollow Hill with the Brotherhood Without Banners.

Nice!  I have come across very similar Celtic underworld beliefs, the Sidhe in particular.  But there are many tales of hollow hills, the underworld and their various gods.  Fire gods born on top of towers, war gods, sky gods etc.  The god of health was Bran the Blessed.  Once you start looking there are similarities from many of the different myths, very interesting to research.

I like the idea that the cavern dreams of Jaime, Theon and Jon insinuate they are being ‘invited’ or singled out as important by the ‘gods’ so to speak.  If Lady Dustin ‘is’ acting as a gatekeeper of sorts, then her refusal to host Ramsey at Barrow ‘Hall’ and instead meet with Reek might be telling.  As I mentioned up thread that seemed to be the start of his transformation back to Theon. [Thanks Ravenous Reader ] 

And yes, after mentioning Ravenous Reader, she mentioned to me the potential importance of Tyrion being in that underworld already.  Arya is another, as you say, I will add she also goes into the ‘third level’ below the temple.  Look at the description from the wiki…

THE HOUSE OF BLACK AND WHITE

The knoll upon which the temple sits holds many passageways cut from the rock. Priests and acolytes' sleeping cells are located on the first level beneath the main floor. The sleeping cells for the servants are on the second. The holy sanctum lays on the third level. It is a restricted area.  The third level contains the many faces collected by the House.  The faces are hung on the walls, and are used as disguises.

In the center of the main room on the main floor lies a pool ten feet across.

Built on a hill/knoll with many underground passageways is another hollow hill.

The ‘holy sanctum’ is on the third level, the huge area that holds all the faces.  That’s our cavern.

There is another pool, although it is on the first level rather than in the cavern.

An association with weirwood [and ebony] in the doors and chairs/thrones within the temple.

Another place in the series clearly associated with magic. 

It’s not in Westeros which is interesting, if the magic of these hills all link together, it would strengthen the argument of Bran and Bloodraven's presence in Braavos. 

And excitingly, this could link the Faceless Men to the Greenseers.  As you said WTS?  I’ve literally just found all this checking Arya’s foray underground.  Can the Faceless Men harness the same powers as the greenseers can from these hollow hills?  Do they have a greenseer?  Did Bloodraven or Euron travel though or even train here?  Surely they know of the magic, all the faces are kept in the 'cavern' on the third level down. 

The Greenseer Kings from the Age of Heroes pre-date Braavos, so were there greenseers living in this obviously magical hollow hill before the slaves arrived to build there secret city?  Along time has passed, so perhaps not, but this in intriguing. 

With this in mind it's interesting to re-read the tales of Ser Clarence Crabb and his liking for mounting the heads of his foes on shelves at The Whispers.  These heads talk and whisper to each other, probably because of the magic found in these caverns. 

This sounds like the magic cavern under the hollow hill that is The House of Black and White, no?  Heads or faces whispering underground.  Here's a look at Cracklaw Point and Ser Clarence's castle......

THE WHISPERS

But the Cracklaws knew their bogs and forests as no outsider could, and if hard pressed would vanish into the caverns that honeycombed their hills......

Fifty feet below, the waves were swirling in and over the remnants of a shattered tower.  Behind it, she glimpsed the mouth of a large cavern. ‘’That’s the old beacon tower,’’ said Nimble Dick as he came up behind her. ‘’It fell when I was half as old as Pods here.  Used to be steps down to the cove, but when the cliff collapsed they went too.  The smugglers stopped landing there after that.  Time, was, they could row their boats into the cave, but no more.  See?’’………

The sound was just the sea, echoing endlessly through the caverns beneath the castle, rising and falling with each wave.  It did sound like whispering, though, and for a moment she could almost see the heads, sitting on their shelves and muttering to one another. ‘’I should have used the sword’’ one of them was saying. ‘’I should have used the magic sword.’’

So we have the caverns deep in the hills, and then the mouth underneath the castle leading to another cave.  We also see this at Casterly Rock and Storm's End.  I think The Whispers is another castle strategically placed atop a hollow hill.  We also have the weirwood sapling growing in the area which again may support a weirwood root network underground.  These saplings are suddenly popping up everywhere, places I have potentially sited as hollow hills in fact, Nightfort, The Whispers and

 

In Arianne's sample chapter on George's website

   

Can we link this early Face/head greenseer magic to the Faceless Men?  I'm not sure quite yet, but the similarities are there, and the hollow hill link.  What does everyone here think?  These hollow hills seem to have been harnessed during the Age of Heroes and afterward.  There are caverns under Dragonstone, under King's Landing, and now The House of Black and White.   

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Here’s another character we have seen in this underworld, Sam.    

Horn Hill

- Horn Hill was built on top of a hill by two sons of Garth the Green, Harlon the Hunter and Herndon of the Horn. 

-Sam remembers a time as a child when his father threw him into a fishpond underneath the castle in an attempt to teach him how to swim….

When he was small his lord father had tried to teach him how to swim by throwing him into the pond beneath Horn Hill.  The water had gotten in his nose and in his mouth and in his lungs, and he coughed and wheezed for hours after Ser Hyle pulled him out. 

- A pond/pool ‘underneath’ the castle would suggest that they are in a cavern.  And therefore, it seems there is access to this underground cavern/pond through the castle, much like we see with the other examples I gave up thread. 

- History tells us that the brothers Harlon and Herndon, both wed a woods witch, and lived on for a hundred years after that.  But only on one condition, that they slept with her whenever the moon was full.  So there is a further connection to magic associated with Horn Hill.  

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An underground pool, seemingly in a cavern with access from a castle built on a hill, a castle associated with magic at that.  Surely Harlon and Herndon were greenseers too? LML actually confirmed these two have been identified as potential greenseers.  

There has to be a load more as well, I've been checking the Garth the Green descendants and the Houses associated with them.  Not much to go on as they are mainly smaller houses.  But we do get that a lot of their castles are built in hilly and mountainous terrain.  Of course they are.    

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 I suspect Harrenhal will turn out to be a central node for these hollow hills. Even if all the caves aren't connected underground, I suspect that they are connected by some pattern or geometry or wavelength or ley lines of some kind.

I agree that Harrenhal will be important, quite how is eluding me at the moment.  One of the things I’ve been looking at is the similarities in description of the Great Halls and the caverns.  I mentioned the caverns being seen by Jon and Bran as like Winterfell’s Great Hall.  Well some parts of the largest castles and their Great Halls are sometimes described as ‘cavernous’.  Including Harrenhal’s underground vaults….

• Widow's Tower connects to the Kingspyre Tower via a stone bridge. Underneath there is a great cell that is used to keep prisoners.

Wailing Tower contains storerooms on the ground floor and cavernous vaults beneath.

So Harrenhal has cavernous vaults underneath the Wailing Tower – There is a bat connection I suppose?  Bran sees bats in the caves, I am still thinking on Harrenhal.  No change there. 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Hey, @Wizz-The-Smith and @Seams, I've found another hollow hill on The Quiet Isle while re-reading AFFC. It appears to have magical links

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Brother Narbert led the visitors around a chestnut tree to a wooden door set in the side of the hill. “A cave with a door?” Ser Hyle said, surprised. Septon Meribald smiled. “It is called the Hermit’s Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later.”

Also, the Elder Brother who they meet in this hollow hill has incredible healing powers

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The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cure, and many a woman too.”

I'm sure these magical underground places date back to the age of heroes and before and were also key to the survival of humans during the long night.  I think back to the cave of the CoTF that the wights/others were unable to enter and it makes me think these other magical caves and hollow hills were the same.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

20 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

I've found another hollow hill on The Quiet Isle while re-reading AFFC. It appears to have magical links

Also, the Elder Brother who they meet in this hollow hill has incredible healing powers

I'm sure these magical underground places date back to the age of heroes and before and were also key to the survival of humans during the long night.  I think back to the cave of the CoTF that the wights/others were unable to enter and it makes me think these other magical caves and hollow hills were the same.

Hey Lady Fishbiscuit.     

I was made aware of The Quiet Isle by @ravenous reader but I had only looked at the wiki, so thank you for posting the text.  I agree with your take on the Elder Brother and his amazing healing powers.  The first holy man to take residence in the cave 'worked his wonders' as well.  Anyway, nice catch, it's good to know you're on the lookout for the hollow hills as well. 

And yes, surely these caves would've helped to survive the long night.  Didn't Bran comment on how they could feed themselves in Bloodravens hollow hill, fish, mushrooms and they kept goats as well.  I think that's right, I'll have to check. 

As for dating back to the Age of Heroes and before, definitely.  The CotF were living all over Westeros for thousands of years before any humans, some would have lived in the caves/caverns, especially the greenseers.  In fact the World book tells us they lived in the caverns.  

Then the First Men built their castles atop these magic hills, and they are mostly Age of Heroes castles.  Winterfell, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Horn Hill and add The Hightower.  There are more, I'm working on an essay at the moment.  And to your final point, I totally think all the caves, caverns and hollow hills are magical.  And for thousands of years the inhabitants of Westeros knew how to harness this magic, then somewhere along the line the knowledge dwindled.    

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

19 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

Then the First Men built their castles atop these magic hills, and they are mostly Age of Heroes castles.  Winterfell, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Horn Hill and add The Hightower.  There are more, I'm working on an essay at the moment.  And to your final point, I totally think all the caves, caverns and hollow hills are magical.  And for thousands of years the inhabitants of Westeros knew how to harness this magic, then somewhere along the line the knowledge dwindled.    

Looking forward to the essay!

It would be interesting to see if any of the castles built atop these hollow hills also offer protection from The Others. I've a feeling we'll find out soon, for Winterfell at least! Molestown also mostly underground will also hopefully be safe from The Others, but if they find a way to breach the wall maybe they can breach the hollow hills too.  Wish TWOW would hurry up!