Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: I do know wights and rangers ended up as food in Craster's cellar. Heck, since his food has been running low, maybe Craster decided to trap and hunt wights. What? Until a 'theory' is proven you don't 'know' anything for sure. Keep it all as speculation until we find out otherwise. In any event how do you propose we would ever find out if your theory is true? What would it serve to the story? Craster is dead, the Rangers are dead. The story wouldn't gain anything from this whole theory at all really I dont think and I can't see how we the readers would ever find out that it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Of Westeros Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I really enjoyed reading the thread, though my stomach didn't And the points are really interesting. But as @Macgregor of the North said the story won't gain anything from it. If this theory was true it would make sense to reveal it earlier in the books, f.e. through Bran/Summer visions or Jon/Ghost dreams. Or even from his wives. I guess the whole point of Craster's line was the mutiny against Jeor Mormont which lead to Jon becoming a LC + some insight to the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 On 30/08/2016 at 6:09 AM, sweetsunray said: You may argue that the black sausages are hard because of the cold, but that would not make them woody. And Craster needed to gnaw and chew and worry on his black sausages inside the keep as well. And if they wished, Sam or Gilly could keep the sausages from freezing. The woodiness, the hardiness and the blackness of the sausages suggest they are made of the blood from wights. Not really. Dirk talks of sausages and he seems to think they are just long black sausages he has encountered before and that they keep for years, and we certainly are not to assume Dirk has been making Wight sausages in the past, are we? "Sausage," said Dirk. "Them long black ones, they're like rocks, they keep for years. I bet he's got a hundred hanging in some cellar." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 30 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: What? Until a 'theory' is proven you don't 'know' anything for sure. Keep it all as speculation until we find out otherwise. While I agree with the fundamentals of this, but sometimes we as readers find the "code" in the world and have to puzzle it out. I don't remember reading anywhere that this is an absolute yet, just clues to how this world operates. The example of one character sets the rules for the rest. 30 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: In any event how do you propose we would ever find out if your theory is true? If we find out it's true, then there are plenty of wildlings at CB, or maybe even Mance, that could spill the baked beans to go along with the pork. Quote What would it serve to the story? Craster is dead, the Rangers are dead. The story wouldn't gain anything from this whole theory at all really I dont think and I can't see how we the readers would ever find out that it happened. I agree that this info won't save humanity, but It could provide some insight to why the Others are arriving now, or why they are looking for a Stark, answers some past questions that niggle like a loose tooth, or at minimum show how this world operates: stray from the old gods and death will follow (just a pre-coffee example cuz it's early here). Basically, we don't know the result of all of these details that GRRM wove in so meticulously, but discovering the clues to the world is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I agree that this info won't save humanity, but It could provide some insight to why the Others are arriving now, or why they are looking for a Stark, Why would this theory, which is basically about how Ben and his Rangers actually did go by Crasters but we're all killed, Wighted, then turned into Wight sausages, despite Craster saying they never actually came by his place and the fact there's actual evidence in the book which states Ben headed west of the milkwater in the direction of the Frostfangs, how can this theory provide some insight into why the Others are arriving now? And the last bit about them looking for a Stark, I presume this means you have taken the reddit theory as gospel as well although I may be wrong but it seems you are referring to that, am I correct? I would actually like to open up some discussion on the assumptions people make concerning that Reddit thread but I'll await your reply before I do any of that on @sweetsunray's thread outta respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Just now, Macgregor of the North said: Why would this theory, which is basically about how Ben and his Rangers actually did go by Crasters but we're all killed, Wighted, then turned into Wight sausages, despite Craster saying they never actually came by his place and the fact there's actual evidence in the book which states Ben headed west of the milkwater in the direction of the Frostfangs, how can this theory provide some insight into why the Others are arriving now? And the last bit about them looking for a Stark, I presume this means you have taken the reddit theory as gospel as well although I may be wrong but it seems you are referring to that, am I correct? I would actually like to open up some discussion on the assumptions people make concerning that Reddit thread but I'll await your reply before I do any of that on @sweetsunray's thread outta respect. I never read the Reddit theory. I think I have been to that site three times in my internet life, so I am not familiar with it and basically just stick with this site for my fandom. I hear too many crazy things from places like that and don't care to go down that path. There is enough crazy on this site to cover my needs! We have to wait on the result of some theories because the story isn't over, but when it does continue again, if we have our clues in order, we can make better assessments while reading on. Kinda like understanding Bran's "time travel" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 21 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: If we find out it's true, then there are plenty of wildlings at CB, or maybe even Mance, that could spill the baked beans to go along with the pork. Are you meaning that there are Wildlings at CB, or maybe even Mance, knows that Craster killed Ben and his men, they Wighted, then he chopped them up into sausages for other Rangers to eat later, and that we could possibly find this out in the story through wildlings or Mance later? How would that effect the story in any way except for us to go, emmmm, OK, that was a shit thing of him to do, and that's a shit way for Ben and his men to die, but hey ho it don't matter because it dont effect anything going forward and Craster and all the rest are dead anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: I never read the Reddit theory. I think I have been to that site three times in my internet life, so I am not familiar with it and basically just stick with this site for my fandom. I hear too many crazy things from places like that and don't care to go down that path. There is enough crazy on this site to cover my needs! We have to wait on the result of some theories because the story isn't over, but when it does continue again, if we have our clues in order, we can make better assessments while reading on. Kinda like understanding Bran's "time travel" I'm quite sure I have saw you reference Craster running and telling the Others that he thought Waymar was a Stark and in turn they set a trap due to this info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: I'm quite sure I have saw you reference Craster running and telling the Others that he thought Waymar was a Stark and in turn they set a trap due to this info But I never got anything from Reddit, if that is what you are implying? I do think Craster is working with the Others, which I think we talked about in your own thread a few months back, if I remember correctly. adding: not Waymar. I think the Others did that on their own, or maybe Craster did tell the Others before the story started, but I am only thinking of that possibility now. I think Craster lied about Benjen and told the Others where Benjen was headed, and Jon and co. As well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 22 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: But I never got anything from Reddit, if that is what you are implying? I do think Craster is working with the Others, which I think we talked about in your own thread a few months back, if I remember correctly. adding: not Waymar. I think the Others did that on their own, or maybe Craster did tell the Others before the story started, but I am only thinking of that possibility now. I think Craster lied about Benjen and told the Others where Benjen was headed, and Jon and co. As well. Yup, it was my musings on the Others thread a good while ago that me and you were having a convo on and @sweetsunray edged in with the whole reddit influenced Craster Waymar stuff IIRC which lead her to getting a forum mod warning and a couple of her comments deleted lol, im quite sure you were in agreement with her at the time if im not mistaken, and when you say you never got the idea from reddit i'd hazard a guess that you got it from sweetsunray, who in turn definitely got it from the reddit theory. Anyways all that was ages ago and unless you wanna open up discusiions on the claims in the reddit theory, which ive got plenty to say about if you do fancy a talk about it, we can leave it in the past if you like, im good either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 4 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Yup, it was my musings on the Others thread a good while ago that me and you were having a convo on and @sweetsunray edged in with the whole reddit influenced Craster Waymar stuff IIRC which lead her to getting a forum mod warning and a couple of her comments deleted lol, im quite sure you were in agreement with her at the time if im not mistaken, and when you say you never got the idea from reddit i'd hazard a guess that you got it from sweetsunray, who in turn definitely got it from the reddit theory. Anyways all that was ages ago and unless you wanna open up discusiions on the claims in the reddit theory, which ive got plenty to say about if you do fancy a talk about it, we can leave it in the past if you like, im good either way. Then it was pure coincidence and you clearly have a better memory on that than I do because I just remember talking to you and maybe Illyrio M'parties(?) about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Then it was pure coincidence and you clearly have a better memory on that than I do because I just remember talking to you and maybe Illyrio M'parties(?) about it. My memory isn't too bad considering all the brain cells I've willingly killed all these years having fun but hey ho, that thread was ages ago. This is Sweetsunrays and I'd rather stick to her topic. Unless you both wanna have a friendly duel on the Reddit theory topic where Craster informs the Others about 'the one' Stark who happens by his keep. I'll be here if you guys do fancy a chat on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: because I just remember talking to you and maybe Illyrio M'parties(?) about it. This was actually on my 'Ben Stark, why head west?' thread, which i tagged you on hoping for further discussion but you blanked me and i heard no more from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: This was actually on my 'Ben Stark, why head west?' thread, which i tagged you on hoping for further discussion but you blanked me and i heard no more from you. Thanks for ratting me out i kinda remember I was looking for a quote then sorta drifted and had real world distractions for a while. Now that you opened that slice of long pork, I will go back to that tonight after work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said: Thanks for ratting me out i kinda remember I was looking for a quote then sorta drifted and had real world distractions for a while. Now that you opened that slice of long pork, I will go back to that tonight after work. Lol, cool. i'll look forward to that, probably be tomorrow morning UK time before i reply, in a couple hours i'll return to the real world and shut off from here for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: fact there's actual evidence in the book which states Ben headed west of the milkwater in the direction of the Frostfangs, I must have missed this. Is there a quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: I must have missed this. Is there a quote? Yup, The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they'd found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: ...I agree that this info won't save humanity, but It could provide some insight to why the Others are arriving now, or why they are looking for a Stark, answers some past questions that niggle like a loose tooth, or at minimum show how this world operates: stray from the old gods and death will follow (just a pre-coffee example cuz it's early here). Basically, we don't know the result of all of these details that GRRM wove in so meticulously, but discovering the clues to the world is important. sweetsunray's OP happened to coincide with some research I was doing on Theon, and I was fascinated to notice a connection between Craster with his axe on the dinner table and a scene with Theon's dinner at his father's castle, where he discovers the woman he was planning to seduce is not only his sister, but also much more popular than he is and that she lied to him about being married to a shipbuilder: That only made him angrier. "All that about being a woman wed, and new with child . . ." "Oh, that part was true enough." Asha leapt to her feet. "Rolfe, here," she shouted down at one of the finger dancers, holding up a hand. He saw her, spun, and suddenly an axe came flying from his hand, the blade gleaming as it tumbled end over end through the torchlight. Theon had time for a choked gasp before Asha snatched the axe from the air and slammed it down into the table, splitting his trencher in two and splattering his mantle with drippings. "There's my lord husband." His sister reached down inside her gown and drew a dirk from between her breasts. "And here's my sweet suckling babe." He could not imagine how he looked at that moment, but suddenly Theon Greyjoy realized that the Great Hall was ringing with laughter, all of it at him. Even his father was smiling, gods be damned, and his uncle Victarion chuckled aloud. The best response he could summon was a queasy grin. We shall see who is laughing when all this is done, bitch. (ACoK, Theon II) Elements from this scene obviously overlap with the scenes at Craster's table that sweetsunray documented for us so meticulously: someone is given an axe, a loaf of bread is used as a dish, someone is insulted. I think fish stew is eaten in both locations. The most interesting connection is that we know the Night's Watch brother who finally kills Craster was named Dirk, and Asha says a dirk (knife) is her baby. I know that sweetsunrays's theory about the presence of the axe at the table has a lot to do with guest right - and I am certainly no expert on the bear and the maiden fair - but it seems to me that Theon is the bear in this scenario, thinking that he is the boss and that he will get laid at the end of the night, but finding out that he was lured to the feast and that he is "spattered" (with fish stew, not blood, but maybe followers of the drowned god have a special kind of symbolic blood) by the warriors who surround him. One of the possibilities that struck me in reading the excerpts in the OP is that Jeor Mormont is an obvious bear when he visits Craster, but Craster thinks he is the boss and finds out that he is a bear, too: both men are killed by the Night's Watch brothers. But definitely correct my mistakes: I know sweetsunray will have a much better grasp of which elements are bear-related and where I have made a false connection. Even if the bear connection isn't correct, the two scenes are worth comparing and do indicate a direction in my mind that would go toward "the result" that The Fattest Leech reminds us we need to seek, based on the clues GRRM provides. Here are the clues or hints I find significant: Craster thinks the women are his wives (i.e., lovers) but they are really his daughters. Theon thinks Asha is his next sexual conquest, but she is really his sister. Asha says an axe is her husband and a dirk is her baby. Craster is strongly associated with an axe. He is killed by a "Dirk." Who do we know who was both a "wife" of Craster and has a baby? Gilly. Jon Snow doesn't eat under Craster's roof but, when Ghost kills Gilly's rabbits, Jon and his brothers eat one of the rabbits and Ghost eats the other. If you want to catch a wolf, rabbits are a good way to bait a trap. The strongest association I have with rabbits is that Dany refers to her ruler-of-Meereen "disguise" as rabbit ears. Could the implication be that Gilly is disguising something? The connection between the dirk and Gilly's baby might explain why there were two rabbits: Gilly and the baby are both "in disguise," and have powers or goals we have not seen. You can let me know if I should start a separate thread, but my thinking would be that GRRM is telling us to look at Craster's Wives. If you thought they were passive victims, you are probably mistaken. Another Theon / Craster connection that struck me was Craster's constant references to himself as a godly man and the fact that he has the only chair in Craster's Keep. I understand from others in this forum that Theon's name means godly, and we know that his uncle Aeron is determined that "only a godly man can sit the Seastone Chair." So we may want to puzzle out why or how Craster is like the King of the Iron Islands - or like Theon, at least. Or is the comparison between Craster and Asha? She is the one with multiple axes (= multiple husbands): Somewhere in the ebb and flow of battle, Asha lost Qarl, lost Tris, lost all of them. Her dirk was gone as well, and all her throwing axes; instead she had a sword in hand, a short sword with a broad thick blade, almost like a butcher's cleaver. For her life she could not have said where she had gotten it. Her arm ached, her mouth tasted of blood, her legs were trembling, and shafts of pale dawn light were slanting through the trees. Has it been so long? How long have we been fighting? (ADwD, The Wayward Bride) For what it's worth, the butcher's cleaver is probably an allusion to Ramsay Snow, although there is a butcher king motif throughout the books. If Craster was making sausage, then he would definitely fit the butcher king image. On the other hand, didn't he leave that kind of work to his wives? Maybe they are the butcher kings behind the throne. Perhaps the Drowned God will also help us to understand Craster (and his wives') religion involving the Others. Both religions seem to involve human sacrifice that results in a "rebirth." Maybe that's the only common element between the two religions. Just a few thoughts. If this is too far from the OP, I apologize. I enjoyed reading the OP but it did open up this different way of thinking about the same material ssr covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2016 Author Share Posted August 31, 2016 7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: Yes but at the end of the conversation about the dead, Jon has the conclusion they all have a feeling it was the Others etc. You have went with these guys conclusions on the axe being used, why discount it here? Jon has already started to notice those blue-blue eyes Quote Btw im not saying it was the Others etc but it all fits better than your theory really that the Others are involved, since it becomes clear the Others used the two Wights in their mission to try and kill Mormont and more high ranking officers when they awoke in Castle black. LIke it fits better if Jaime or Cersei gave the catspaw a dagger and 90 silver pieces to kill Bran. But they didn't. It was Joffrey. Craster's motivation does not stand in the way of the Others using the wights to assassinate the Lord Commander when given the chance. Btw did you notice the wife whose mouth dropped open like a pink cave when Jeor told it to Craster, and how Craster ordered her away soon after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2016 Author Share Posted August 31, 2016 7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said: This is exactly what im stating. In your OP you state that Craster kills Jafer and runs back in a panic to alert the rest, presumably assuming that all the rest were sleeping?, because if they werent all sleeping then they wouldnt have allowed Craster to have near hacked off Jafers head in the first place without a fight no? No, not presuming that all the rest were sleeping. The compound is large, there's woods beyond it. The Samwell II chapter is interesting in that regard, because we have Jeor returning with rangers with the raven crying snow, and those who have watch crying "Who goes there?" and Jeor finding that ridiculous. At some point Craster is off scene after he gets angry with Sam proposing to take the son to the Wall and isn't seen or heard from in a while, not even at Bannen's burrial. And yet nobody is sleeping. Craster sacrifices his sons in the woods right? To the trees. If you have one guy say going to the ditch to make water. He sees Craster with his son, wondering what is he up to. He heard he sacrifices his sons to the gods. So, he follows him, as quiet as he can, and thus none of his brothers, not even those on the watch know he's missing. He follows Craster beyond the perimeter, into the woods. If the brothers at the keep don't hear a baby crying, then why should they hear Jafer. And indeed, the wound description and the deep cut shows there was no struggle at all. If there had been a struggle, Jafer's head could not be taken off with one blow, one deep bite, from the side of his neck. Jafer was taken by surprise, regardless who you think the assailant was. And if near your neck is severed, you don't have the vocal chords anymore to make a peep. Nobody would have heard anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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