Craster's Black Blooded Curse (or WTF happened to Benjen)

[Macgregor of the North]

6 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I see that time travel tends to follow me around.....:P

Currently, in the books, we only have evidence for Bran being a subconscious influence - i.e being able to possibly speak only through trees, ravens, wind and so on into the past. Let's go easy on the predictions as to what he might and might not have influenced -  although I usually disregard show, we have a very strong hint this season that Bran might realise messing drastically with the past has consequences, and hence stop doing so after a while. All magic has consequences in this world, as we know.

I am in the camp that thinks the past influences will be very low-key, similar to how Bran influenced Theon in ADWD. Bran is definitely going to realise, at some point, that he actually can't alter the outcome of anything. 

Oops. My bad, on it following you around LSoN lol. Your always a good source of info on the topic in my eyes. I won't however, tag you all the time, have no fear on that count 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Oops. My bad, on it following you around LSoN lol. Your always a good source of info on the topic in my eyes. I won't however, tag you all the time, have no fear on that count

Nope, that's okay. I don't mind at all.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

That's probably right. This explains it better than I could:

https://weirwoodleviathan.wordpress.com/2016/04/27/iii-now-i-am-become-death-legacy-of-a-toy-soldier/

 

I think it's horrible in a different way... The ourobouros idea is that Bran attempts to save and help via the past, but can only truly save himself. Great power! But instead of helping in any way in the current time, he's spending time and effort in the past, saving himself to ultimately save himself. Now, that doesn't mean all is lost. It's just that survivors would have saved themselves I guess.

Example: the stash. What did it accomplish? Did it help people at the Fist? Nope. It did help Sam to slay the Other. He would have been dead otherwise. And if Sam had been dead, then he would not have been at the Black Gate with Coldhands to let Bran through.

Now, it does accomplish that people have rediscovered the use of obsidian, but that needs to be mined from Dragonstone, which supposedly was under siege. If nobody ever mines Dragonstone for obsidian or recovers a great stash for it, and no other character manages to slay an Other with obsidian, then all the stash ever truly served was help Bran get North of the Wall.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yep, this is what makes the most sense to me, honestly. My hunch that Benjen's story resembled the Last Hero has actually become stronger after this thread  The quote you guys provided about him heading northwest and suddenly "vanishing", the Theon dream in ACOK, possibly the dragonglass cache at the Fist being placed by him (which means he met the children), the fact that the Others would have used him as leverage if they didn't have another purpose for him in mind, so on.

It's always been a notion of mine that there is some connection between Starks and Others, and Ben's story (and whatever he has become) will be key to revealing that. Basically, IMO, his character has to have a purpose which specifically a Stark can accomplish, otherwise his role could have been taken over/ or eliminated from the story long back.

I have thought to of the possibility that Bens story will help explain if there is any kind of connection between Stark's and Others, if he has indeed had any contact with them or been through some kind of situation with them for whatever reason I'm sure the story will come back to that in some way. 

Did you ever begin a thread on the Last hero connection? 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have thought to of the possibility that Bens story will help explain if there is any kind of connection between Stark's and Others, if he has indeed had any contact with them or been through some kind of situation with them for whatever reason I'm sure the story will come back to that in some way. 

Did you ever begin a thread on the Last hero connection? 

No, because it was only a hunch till now with not much evidence. 

[sweetsunray]

Though spoken in jest by Alisser

Quote

"That will be all," Thorne told them. "I can only stomach so much ineptitude in any one day. If the Others ever come for us, I pray they have archers, because you lot are fit for nothing more than arrow fodder." (aGoT, Jon III)

Alisser prays the Others have archers... that's how little they know of the Others.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Though spoken in jest by Alisser

Alisser prays the Others have archers... that's how little they know of the Others.

Indeed it is by complete jest, it's a joke for sure. Meaning that his recruits are so shit that he would actually 'want' the Others to have archers(though he probably thinks they don't) because he thinks his recruits are probably better suited to being stuck atop the wall as them straw men they use against the wildlings.

 

[sweetsunray]

There are also some foreshadowing lines for Sam eating long pork

Quote

"I saw him eat a pork pie," Toad said, smirking. "Do you think it was a brother?" He began to make oinking noises. (aGoT, IV)

And when a black sausage appears the first time it's called a "blood sausage", start of the chapter where Sam and Jon go to the grove with the weirwood trees and Ghost appears with Jafer's hand

Quote

Jon was breaking his fast on applecakes and blood sausage when Samwell Tarly plopped himself down on the bench.

...[snip]...

The direwolf trotted to him. Jon heard Samwell Tarly's sharp intake of breath.

"Gods be good," Dywen muttered. "That's a hand."

(aGoT, Jon VI)

And I've been wondering what makes Dywen so special. Why does he have such a good nose. But he's kind of described as a tree in some way.

 

Quote

 

The rangers gathered round to offer smiles and congratulations, all but the gnarled old forester Dywen. "Best we be starting back, m'lord," he said to Bowen Marsh. "Dark's falling, and there's something in the smell o' the night that I mislike."

And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes, Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees …

 

 gnarled, wooden teeth, good nose, tends to see stuff and say things that are more right than Jaremy or Thoren says. He's like a tree. And trees see and know stuff.

[Macgregor of the North]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And when a black sausage appears the first time it's called a "blood sausage", start of the chapter where Sam and Jon go to the grove with the weirwood trees and Ghost appears with Jafer's hand

 

In truth it's just mentioned as a blood sausage, never black, and it's the chapter before they set out and find the bodies, not the same chapter.

Also the first time black sausages are mentioned, it's miles away in essos with Dany. They are everywhere these black sausages it seems. 

[sweetsunray]

There's also a funny mention of just normal pork related products in a Jon chapter in aDwD when Edd brings him food at CB. Duck eggs, bread, blood pudding, sausages and bacon. Jon only has an egg and bread and wants to take the bacon. But the raven "steals" it. Of course none of that is long pork, and this raven likes bacon (not convinced it's actually Mormont's raven). It's more of an inside joke to me, and a hint to Jon "stealing" Val. 

Quote

Dolorous Edd made the trek to the kitchens and soon was back with a tankard of brown ale and a covered platter. Under the lid Jon discovered three duck's eggs fried in drippings, a strip of bacon, two sausages, a blood pudding, and half a loaf of bread still warm from the oven. He ate the bread and half an egg. He would have eaten the bacon too, but the raven made off with it before he had the chance. "Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

"Thief," the raven agreed. (aDwD, Jon VII)

 

[sweetsunray]

The night of the assassination attempt on the LC, Jon's guard is also killed. Because Jon attacked Thorne with a knife that day for calling him a "traitor's bastard" not long after he heard the news that Ned was arrested for treason, he's to remain in his room and see no visitors. Although Ghost is allowed to be with him. Ghost wakes him by raking the wood of the door. Apparently it was never locked either. He just opens it and finds the guard lying there, who lies on his stomach, but his head has been twisted around 180° and looking up at Jon, and the guard's sword is still in its sheat.

Quote

His guard was sprawled bonelessly across the narrow steps, looking up at him. Looking up at him, even though he was lying on his stomach. His head had been twisted completely around...[snip]... The guard's sword was in its sheath. Jon knelt and worked it free. (aGoT, Jon VII)

Othor could have taken the sword, like Jafer, but didn't. He just twisted the guard's neck around and went to LC's room without the sword.

And there's actually a parallel between Jon attacking Thorne and the scene where see Craster attack Karl with the axe.

 

Quote

 

And then he heard the laughter, sharp and cruel as a whip, and the voice of Ser Alliser Thorne. "Not only a bastard, but a traitor's bastard," he was telling the men around him.

In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser's hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser's face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers. (aGoT, Jon VII)

 

"Bloody bastard!" Sam heard one of the Garths curse. He never saw which one.

"Who calls me bastard?" Craster roared, sweeping platter and meat and wine cups from the table with his left hand while lifting the axe with his right.

"It's no more than all men know," Karl answered.

Craster moved quicker than Sam would have believed possible, vaulting across the table with axe in hand. A woman screamed, Garth Greenaway and Orphan Oss drew knives, Karl stumbled back and tripped over Ser Byam lying wounded on the floor. (aSoS, Samwell II)

 

 

Different location, different weapon, different person, but other than that it's the same scene, with a different ending. I don't think it's necessarily the confrontation that happened between Craster, Jafer and Othor, but it's another scene at Craster's that points again to the chapter where they find Jafer and Othor.

 

[Tijgy]

On 1-9-2016 at 11:19 AM, sweetsunray said:

Well, we do have a character that is both suggested to be old and connected to the CotF, as well as the NW, and who seems to know stuff like a greenseer almost, and that's Coldhands.

 

But Coldhands is someone who already has been a long time dead. It does not solve the question about the fact how recently a black cloak could have put there? How did CH get a complete black cloak while his is a little mottled. IMO the cloak came from somebody else than CH. So where did he got that cloak if he was the one who buried the stash? 

The main problem I have is that there is not really any indication it was Coldhands who did this. It comes after they talked about the whereabouts of Ben Stark of whom Bran said earlier he could have taken refuge with the CotF. 

20 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I am in the camp that thinks the past influences will be very low-key, similar to how Bran influenced Theon in ADWD. Bran is definitely going to realise, at some point, that he actually can't alter the outcome of anything. 

I agree with this. I am also sort of reluctant to adhere everything to Bran. In one way it actually sort of takes away the agency of all other characters and maybe even the influence Bloodraven might had on how thing unfolded. This is why I mostly just refer to the old gods and not to Bloodraven or to Bran, when I am talking about any possible intervention by the old gods (like the Raven, the 3EC, Coldhands, ...). 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Tijgy said:

But Coldhands is someone who already has been a long time dead. It does not solve the question about the fact how recently a black cloak could have put there? How did CH get a complete black cloak while his is a little mottled. IMO the cloak came from somebody else than CH. So where did he got that cloak if he was the one who buried the stash? 

The main problem I have is that there is not really any indication it was Coldhands who did this. It comes after they talked about the whereabouts of Ben Stark of whom Bran said earlier he could have taken refuge with the CotF. 

He could have gotten it from a recent fallen man of the NW. That NW brother normally would need his cloak, no? So, it can be a cloak from a recent NW man who is dead or wighted buried by Coldhands together with the stash.

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I agree with this. I am also sort of reluctant to adhere everything to Bran. In one way it actually sort of takes away the agency of all other characters and maybe even the influence Bloodraven might had on how thing unfolded.

It only takes agency away from other characters if a future-Bran can influence everyone for the better, and if there are results.

Let's say that stash of dragonglass was fully recovered and brought back to the Wall with the knowledge it's only useful against Others, and not wights and Stannis could mine all the dragonglass of Dragonstone, then yes that stash has an enormous influence, no matter who buried it there.

If however most of the stash was left, the remaining ones misused and shattered and nobody manages to recover the dragonglass at Dragonstone because of the wars South, then all that stash ever did was help Sam survive, and help Bran get through the Black Gate.

Which of the above situations have we seen develop? The first or is it closer to the later?

Heck, even Gilly's son is still at the wall, and that certainly wasn't BR's or Bran's doing or influence. If something happens to the Wall and the Others acquire Monster what actually was accomplished?

[Neds Secret]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It only takes agency away from other characters if a future-Bran can influence everyone for the better, and if there are results.

Let's say that stash of dragonglass was fully recovered and brought back to the Wall with the knowledge it's only useful against Others, and not wights and Stannis could mine all the dragonglass of Dragonstone, then yes that stash has an enormous influence, no matter who buried it there.

If however most of the stash was left, the remaining ones misused and shattered and nobody manages to recover the dragonglass at Dragonstone because of the wars South, then all that stash ever did was help Sam survive, and help Bran get through the Black Gate.

Which of the above situations have we seen develop? The first or is it closer to the later?

Heck, even Gilly's son is still at the wall, and that certainly wasn't BR's or Bran's doing or influence. If something happens to the Wall and the Others acquire Monster what actually was accomplished?

That's correct about monster, he still is at the wall, I never considered that the others may still be trying to acquire him.

[Macgregor of the North]

I had a couple more questions about the OP. 

First up what are your thoughts on the huge excel spreadsheet on the westeros timeline? Well researched using text and quite close to accurate it is mostly agreed on from what I've seen. Nothing's perfect but it's very very good and relied on by lots for help with their theories I think.

What's your thoughts on Ben, Jafer, Othor and the four other Rangers leaving CB in mid 298AC(they say June to be exact), which means they would reach Crasters roughly around mid 298AC also. It takes time to get to Crasters obviously but I think the seven Ranger team could have reached the compound while still in mid 298AC.

So going by the timeline they have, the bodies are found in late 298AC(November they have), many many nights after you say they would have been killed by Craster.
So if we have nearly half a year between Ben and co leaving the wall and being around Crasters, and the bodies being found at the spot Ghost leads Jon and co to, then we have them two bodies being killed and Wighted for nearly half a year. Many many nights.

So are you implying that Craster has kept Othor and Jafer as wights for months before taking them south as a message to the NW? Why? Wouldn't he do it right away? Also, during the time Craster has them as Wights(there would have been some kind of amount of time that's for sure), what kind of relationship is there? do you think the wights are cool with him? Don't they try to kill him? If so he would have to burn them or chop them up to little bits no? Dont they try to kill his whole compound, the wives/daughters? 

Or, let's say Craster kills all the Rangers in the woods as per your OP when he sees Jafer spying on him sacrificing a son to an Other, then he sneaks up on Jafer and plants Othors axe in his neck, which I still don't know how that could happen in the first place but let's put that aside. You have it being night, obviously because an Other is there collecting a child. So all the Rangers Wight instantly as its night yeah?.

Craster chops the other Wighted Rangers up to pieces right there in the woods(he has to or they keep moving), because they are attacking him right? Or just because he wants a certain amount of sausages?. Anyways, on to Jafer and Othor- their Wighted corpses and Craster are just cool with each other? He doesn't need to hack them up? They don't attack him no? Why not? 

Infact, not only do they not kill him, they offer to lay dormant while he drags them both a fair enough distance to a spot close to the Wall? After he has already hacked up something like 5 other Ranger Wights into sausages which would fatigue him a wee bit? Remember, the journey where Craster drags them both to the spot close to the Wall would have seen at least a couple of nights pass(at the least I presume), where the Wights would rise again. Do they just stay dormant during the night for him during the journey? What happens when they rise again during the journey? 

Can you clear any of that up? 

[sweetsunray]

Another realization regarding the find of Jafer and Othor:

Wwe are not even sure how long Jafer and Othor were lying there to be found. Ghost found Jafer’s body and bit off his hand, the evening that Jon and Sam said their vows at the grove North of the Wall. This happened near evenfall.

Quote

 

Mormont to the new recruits about to be sworn in:”At evenfall, as the sun sets and we face the gathering night, you shall take your vows. From that moment, you will be a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch.”

[Sam and Jon] said the words together, as the last light faded in the west and grey day became black night. “Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow,” they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. (aGoT, Jon VI)

 

 

And only the next morning do the rangers go out with Jeor, Jon and Snow to find and look at the bodies.

Quote

“Gods have mercy,” the Old Bear muttered. He swung down from his garron, handing his reins to Jon. The morning was unnaturally warm; beads of sweat dotted the Lord Commander’s broad forehead like dew on a melon. (aGoT, Jon VII)

 

So, we know that Jafer and Othor stayed put at the same location, for at least a night. If they lay there as wights for a night, they may have been there for two nights, a week, a month or even longer for all we know. I hear you protest loudly against this, “Surely, the rangers looking for them or hunters would have found them!” Well, would they? How do rangers travel? On horseback. And the horses would have naturally made a wide bow around them.

Quote

His horse was nervous, rolling her eyes, backing away from the dead men as far as her lead would allow. Jon led her off a few paces, fighting to keep her from bolting. The horses did not like the feel of this place. For that matter, neither did Jon.

 

What do the hunters use? Hunting dogs. The dogs were useless, when the rangers and hunters already knew there were bodies North of the Wall. Any hunting party looking for game with the dogs would have been led anywhere but the location of Jafer’s and Othor’s bodies. Only Ghost was able to lead them to the bodies.

Quote

The dogs liked it least of all. Ghost had led the party here; the pack of hounds had been useless. When Bass the kennelmaster had tried to get them to take the scent from the severed hand, they had gone wild, yowling and barking, fighting to get away. Even now they were snarling and whimpering by turns, pulling at their leashes while Chett cursed them for curs. (aGoT, Jon VII)

 

And the evening that Jon and Sam said their vows was the first time that Ghost hunted North of the Wall. Jon used to take Ghost hunting South of the Wall when he was still a recruit. This means that if Jon and Sam would have made their vows a week later, Jafer and Othor would have been found a week later, and thus would lay unmoved for a week. Hence, they might actually have been lying there for quite a while.

[Flavia Gemina]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's also a funny mention of just normal pork related products in a Jon chapter in aDwD when Edd brings him food at CB. Duck eggs, bread, blood pudding, sausages and bacon. Jon only has an egg and bread and wants to take the bacon. But the raven "steals" it. Of course none of that is long pork, and this raven likes bacon (not convinced it's actually Mormont's raven). It's more of an inside joke to me, and a hint to Jon "stealing" Val. 

 

Oh I never noticed before that the Raven here sits atop the door just as in the poem by Poe.

I have held a perhaps crackpot interpretation of the poem that narrator is dead and entombed but does not know it. 

 

I believe the Starks & others are connected through the crypts.

[Darkstream]

12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Othor could have taken the sword, like Jafer, but didn't. He just twisted the guard's neck around and went to LC's room without the sword.

Yup, I noticed that last night and was going to mention it. Othor clearly had the opportunity to arm himself, but chose not to. GRRM made it a point to inform us that the guard's sword was there, and available.

Also, just before the description of Othor's wounds, Jeor asks, how did they die? Referring to both corpses. If Othor and Jaffer had wounds that appeared to be made by a different type of weapon, this would have surely been mentioned.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's also a funny mention of just normal pork related products in a Jon chapter in aDwD when Edd brings him food at CB. Duck eggs, bread, blood pudding, sausages and bacon. Jon only has an egg and bread and wants to take the bacon. But the raven "steals" it. Of course none of that is long pork, and this raven likes bacon (not convinced it's actually Mormont's raven). It's more of an inside joke to me, and a hint to Jon "stealing" Val. 

 

Soooo, what you are saying is Val is a prized piece of meat to be stolen HAhahaha, I love it!

• Dolorous Edd made the trek to the kitchens and soon was back with a tankard of brown ale and a covered platter. Under the lid Jon discovered three duck's eggs fried in drippings, a strip of bacon, two sausages, a blood pudding, and half a loaf of bread still warm from the oven. He ate the bread and half an egg. He would have eaten the bacon too, but the raven made off with it before he had the chance. "Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

"Thief," the raven agreed. (aDwD, Jon VII)