Opinions on Theon

[sifth]

40 minutes ago, Anirbas said:

@sifth I'm sorry but after that comparison with Tywin I can't take you seriously. (unless you were sarcastic and I didn't get it)

I wasn't joking at all. I can totally picture Tywin killing two children to cover up a mistake. The guy would clearly go about it much smarter, as shown with Rhaegar's children.

I see no need why not to compare one child murderer in this series with another. They both had there "reasons" after all.

[INCBlackbird]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

I wasn't joking at all. I can totally picture Tywin killing two children to cover up a mistake. The guy would clearly go about it much smarter, as shown with Rhaegar's children.

I see no need why not to compare one child murderer in this series with another. They both had there "reasons" after all.

Tywin didn't kill children to save face, he did it to please Robert, though I think that if he had to he would do it yes, and  here comes the big difference: Tywin would do it without remorse, he probably wouldn't think twice about it, he would feel no regret afterwards, Theon did. So no the two characters are vastly different, and not just in that aspect.

Everyone has reasons, Ramsay has reasons to do what he does as well (mainly because he likes it) that doesn't say anything, you can extend that to literally everybody. You said to me that you don't care about Theon's reasons in your previous post to me, and to me that's fine, all I ask of you is that you then are consistent and  apply the same to all the other people who have the blood of children on their hands: Sandor, Dany, Stannis, Ned, Robb, Robert, Jon, ... They all took part in wars, which means that children died, they had good reasons for that and yet if you are consistent in your judgement you shouldn't "care" about their reasons.

Or do you only "not care" about reasons when it's Theon's reasons?

 

 

[sweetsunray]

@Anirbas I think we can agree that Theon is a mess in aCoK.

But it's obvious you don't understand my point. You've failed to see it several times already. No amount of "but poor Theon wasn't ready yet to make the better choices" is going to make me think well of his actions. He's a 1st degree murderer for some of the worst reasons (albeit not "I enjoy it".). He is not a 9 year old, but 19.

You're arguing to me from a preconceived notion where you assume I don't understand Theon's issues and where you assume I think him a monster. I understand Theon's issues fine, but they don't make his ACTIONS and CHOICES any less abhorrent. I don't think Theon is an evil monster, never did. I think he's  a selfish prick in aCoK, each time making the worst choice, and then is a coward who throws up his arms "I had no choice!". The whole situation at WF is of his own making, and he makes others pay for it, and they are some of the strategic worst choices as well. And that's not because he is without advizors. He gets advice several times about what is more strategic, what is the better choice, but he refuses to even consider them. He had ample opportunities to change tactic. He did not want to.

Meanwhile your repeated posting of "reasons" start to pile up as a mountain of Theon excuses. And I reject the excuses. My morality of what I deem wrong choices and actions do not shift, because someone has personal issues. Everybody has personal issues. Truly! Everybody! And self-delusion does not make a wrong choice an excusable choice.

And where the helll did I say I don't "appreciate" Theon as a book character? I think he is one of the most fascinatingly written characters in the books. Martin is a genius for writing Theon the way he did, both in aCoK as in aDwD, and no doubt it will continue to be genial.

You are correct that torture does not make someone empathic. I never even implied that. You can't feel empathy for others unless it's there already, and I mentioned several times I don't consider him a psychopath. He has a conscious, he feels guilt and remorse and empathy. What I did say is that only when all the attributes he relied on as a self-delusion to cling to an unattainable situation are gone does he move from guilt to remorse. This is a mere observation of how he was written. The loss could have come about in many different ways. I wouldn't advize it as a therapy though.

I think discussing this further is pointless. You don't understand what I'm trying to say, and seem to think I must be instructed in understanding Theon, which comes off to me as making excuses, because I understand him well enough, but it doesn't alter my judgement of his actions and choices.. 

[INCBlackbird]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You're arguing to me from a preconceived notion where you assume I don't understand Theon's issues and where you assume I think him a monster.

Maybe she is argueing from that perspective because time and time again you have shown yourself to misunderstand Theon by saying stuff like for example this:
 

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think he's a selfish prick in aCoK, each time making the worst choice, and then is a coward who throws up his arms "I had no choice!".

and this:

23 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He had ample opportunities to change tactic. He did not want to.

And because you then call any explanation of his character an excuse. Understanding a character is not excusing them.

Furthermore I really want to know what you consider the difference between guilt and remorse because as I said before, they are synonyms. These are the definitions I can find:

Guilt: a bad feeling caused by knowing or thinking that you have done something bad or wrong  (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guilt)

Remorse: a feeling of being sorry for doing something bad or wrong in the past : a feeling of guilt  (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/remorse)

So what is the difference for you?

 

[sifth]

3 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Tywin didn't kill children to save face, he did it to please Robert, though I think that if he had to he would do it yes, and  here comes the big difference: Tywin would do it without remorse, he probably wouldn't think twice about it, he would feel no regret afterwards, Theon did. So no the two characters are vastly different, and not just in that aspect.

Everyone has reasons, Ramsay has reasons to do what he does as well (mainly because he likes it) that doesn't say anything, you can extend that to literally everybody. You said to me that you don't care about Theon's reasons in your previous post to me, and to me that's fine, all I ask of you is that you then are consistent and  apply the same to all the other people who have the blood of children on their hands: Sandor, Dany, Stannis, Ned, Robb, Robert, Jon, ... They all took part in wars, which means that children died, they had good reasons for that and yet if you are consistent in your judgement you shouldn't "care" about their reasons.

Or do you only "not care" about reasons when it's Theon's reasons?

 

 

I don't care if one child killer feels bad about it, while the other doesn't. The fact that someone is capable of such a horrible thing makes them a vile and vindictive man min my book. I'm not going to ever play devils advocate with Theon. There is a clear right and wrong with some things in life and Theon chose wrong.

 

I'm not going to view battle commanders as child killers either as you apparently want me to do. That's insane logic, because it's like comparing a military general to a criminal who shots up a school.

 

I think I'm done talking with you, because you clearly are more concerned defending the killer than the victim in this case. Theon had a hard life, never would I think otherwise, but that gave him no right to kill those kids. Just because I can understand why he did it, doesn't make me feel any sympathy for the man.

 

[INCBlackbird]

36 minutes ago, sifth said:

I don't care if one child killer feels bad about it, while the other doesn't. The fact that someone is capable of such a horrible thing makes them a vile and vindictive man min my book. I'm not going to ever play devils advocate with Theon. There is a clear right and wrong with some things in life and Theon chose wrong.

 

I'm not going to view battle commanders as child killers either as you apparently want me to do. That's insane logic, because it's like comparing a military general to a criminal who shots up a school.

 

I think I'm done talking with you, because you clearly are more concerned defending the killer than the victim in this case. Theon had a hard life, never would I think otherwise, but that gave him no right to kill those kids. Just because I can understand why he did it, doesn't make me feel any sympathy for the man.

 

Everyone is capable of such a horrible act, under the right circemstances anyone can do it...if you think otherwise you must be very naive about the human nature.

How is that insane logic? innocent people get killed in both instances, if you start a war, you're responsible for the people who die during said war.

The victims don't need to be defended since everyone knows they are innocent and that what was done to them was terrible, have you ever seen any person saying that they deserved it or anything along those lines? I haven't. It's not about having the right to kill people, no one has the right to kill anyone in my opinion, no matter what. it's about the fact that making mistakes, yes that includes the kind of mistakes Theon made, doesn't make a person evil.

[Anirbas]

Well no, I'am afraid but the only one who doesn't understand here it's you, @sweetsunray
I quoted all my posts to show you that I have never said that we have to excuse Theon for his actions, nor that those actions are excusable, because he was in an emotional mess:
 

On 16/9/2016 at 2:37 AM, Anirbas said:

Comparing Theon with Gregor or Ramsay is preposterous. Theon isn't a good person by any means, but evil? I think that GRRM gave us enough material to understand him, the reasons for his actions, and it's not because he enjoys what he does. He thinks that he has no choice. He feels guilt. As already said by INCBlackbird, Theon's very damaged by a traumatic childhood made of physical and psychological abuse by the hands of his brothers (and I suppose his father too), neglect and humiliation. Theon deeply fears humiliation, because he experienced it as a child, before turning 10 yo. In your opinion, what boy of 20 would say "Only a fool humbles himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him."? I don't justify his action, I don't say that he's innocent, but at least I try to understand why a young man accepts to do such a terrible act as killing children and in my opinion it's pretty tragic.

 

21 hours ago, Anirbas said:

@sweetsunray as INCBlackbird said, you remember wrong. The parley with Rodrik Cassel and the threat of hanging Beth is before the scene with Luwin, where he's actually accepting to take the Black:

I blame the tv series everytime, but it seems that's never enough.

Moreover, those don't seem the words of a man who enjoys to do evil things. He acts out of desperation and constantly thinks he has no choice.
 

(...).

And I want to clarify that nobody is saying that what Theon did is not wrong or that he's innocent because there are a lot of characters who did the same or worse than him. But in this fandom there's an afwul lot of double standards when Theon is involved and it's pretty tiring.

 

16 hours ago, Anirbas said:

I know well his reasons, thank you, but if he was really evil he would have done all of that (minus the killing of Bran and Rickon that as hostages are more useful, and Theon knows better), it's the basic behaviour of an ironborn raider after all, and it's more convenient for him. The point is that he doesnt' want to be a Stark more than a Greyjoy, he has ambitions but above all he wants to belong to something and he seeks desperately validation. Taking Winterfell for himself is not an act of evil, the things went obviously wrong and he thought he had no choice. As readers we see that it's not necessary, that there's always a better choice but it's our external point of view.
The reasons of his actions (and failures) are all in his past: he experienced humiliation and abuse as a child, he doesn't want to feel humiliated or inadequate anymore. It's still selfish and stupid but not inherently evil.
GRRM actually gave us a complex background for the character. We know why Theon does like that or the reasons why he thinks he hadn't a better choice, and it's all in his traumatic childhood. That of course doesn't excuse him, but it's important to understand him. Saying that Theon chose deliberately the worst option because he's a horrible person is wrong and imho doesn't make justice to GRRM's writing.
Theon (like basically everyone in this series tho) is capable of great acts of evil yes, that's true and nobody denies it, but that doesn't make him automatically evil, it's not all black and white like this.
@sweetsunray
(cut)
@sifthmy mistake, but iirc someone called him a monster like Tywin or Roose, which it's not true either. Jaime wanted to kill children in order to cover his misdeeds or only to please Cersei, but by any means he is evil  or he's a monster like his father (or his sister). And if i may add (and please don't read that as a justification of Theon's horrible wrongdoings) , Theon didn't want to kill the mother of the children (it was one of his men, and he didn't ordered that), he didn't predetermine the slaughter of an entire family (Ramsay did though, and I suspect that he intended to lead Theon to that specific mill since the beginning) and the treatment of their corpses was not meant to be disrespectful, but he knew that Luwin suspected something and mainly he didn't want to bury the miller's boys in the Cripts. They were no true Starks, and they don't belong there, just like him.

I know that you didn't think he's evil (or I don't remember, but I believe you) but I'm not replying exclusively to you, I'll do a recap:

- Someone said that Theon is evil
- Someone compared him to a monster like Tywin
- I (and INCBlackbird and other posters as well) replied that yes, he does inexcusable evil acts, but since GRRM wrote his character in a certain context, with a certain background, in a certain situation, while not justifying him, we can't say that he's inherently evil, but a deeply flawed grey character. You don't have to love him, you don't have to forgive him, you may hate him with the force of a thousand suns, I really don't care, but I think that saying that he's an evil monster is an offense to GRRM's writing.

 

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

ETA: as for his words of "I didn't have any other choice!" Those are exactly the words who tries to excuse himself for following through on the wrong choice. The only time you don't have a choice is when someboyd put a knife in your hands and to your throat. And even then you still have the choice to die (Guess, what - we had a scene of Jon in such a situation, and he "chose" not to murder an innocent old man). Theon has many choices several times. But none of those choices appeal to his ego. So, instead he makes the choice each time again to harm others, preferably innocent people, in aCoK. 

I hadn't read the added part of this post: the example you do it's pretty ridiculous because Jon Snow has his ass saved by others every time he's in a "problematic" situation (Qhorin, Bran/Summer in the case above, his brothers when he tried to desert the NW to join Robb). And as I said, he accepted to do the baby swap that could end with the sacrifice  of Gilly's baby, it's not a direct murder but it's the only actual controversial choice he had to face,

 

[INCBlackbird]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

ETA: as for his words of "I didn't have any other choice!" Those are exactly the words who tries to excuse himself for following through on the wrong choice.

another prefect example of your lack of understanding Theon. Or human psychology in general actually. Let me quote you something from an article on guilt:

"And projecting our mistakes, or misdeeds, onto others represents a psychological defense that, while it may protect our ego, typically creates far more problems than it solves.

What I’d like to clarify in this post is that a good deal of our anger is motivated by a desire not to experience guilt—and beyond this, the distressing emotions of hurt and fear. It’s by now generally agreed upon that anger, as prevalent as it is in our species, is almost never a primary emotion. For underlying it are such core hurts as feeling disregarded, unimportant, accused, guilty, untrustworthy, devalued, rejected, powerless, and unlovable. And these feelings are capable of engendering considerable emotional pain. It’s therefore understandable that so many of us might go to great lengths to find ways of distancing ourselves from them." (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolution-the-self/201306/anger-how-we-transfer-feelings-guilt-hurt-and-fear)

Now lets look at Theon telling himself that he didn't have a choice:

"It took three more cuts to hack through all that bone and muscle and sever the head from the body, and afterward he was sick, remembering all the times they’d sat over a cup of mead talking of hounds and hunting. I had no choice, he wanted to scream at the corpse. The ironborn can’t keep secrets, they had to die, and someone had to take the blame for it." - Theon V (acok)

I hope that the connection between these two is clear and I don't have to explain my point any further.

 

[Dofs]

For me, ACoK Teon was without a doubt evil. Killing children to save face was really his threshold of starting to feel bad about stuff he did (did he actually feel remorse for killing them? I remember him feeling bad about it but still justifying it). But he didn't care about treating women and people of lower social status as things, about rape, about murder of innocent civilians and capture of women as sex slaves (he actually dreamed of having some), he din't care about ruining lives of others, if all of it needed for his own personal satisfaction and for boosting of his ego. He only cared about that if he did it to the people he grew up with (which is his another threshold of 'feeling' bad, I guess) but he still did it for the same reasons.

I am quite a forgiving person and I could soften to actions as such if there were serious reasons for them. Theon's reasons though, for me, don't come even close to be even a bit justifiable. And for some of his terrible behaviour, there are even no reasons at all.

[King Ned Stark]

@INCBlackbird, wait, what?  Ned has the blood of children on his hands?  His core defining character trait was the protection of children, above his honor, duty, and even his own personal safety.

Theon killed two children for fear of being mocked, right?  There are two instances of Stark's, the family he wants to be like, that fly in the face of his reasoning;

Ned to Bran, "that is the only time a man can be brave, when he is afraid."  Fear is an emotion that can be harnessed and controlled like any other; joy, anger, etc.

Then we have Jon with the wildlings in aSoS, and for me, this scenario is clearly juxtaposed against Theon's own.  Jon is ordered to kill an old man or his life is forfeit.  The man is old, alone in the north with winter coming, and besides, the old man is dead whether Jon does the deed himself.  So why not save his own skin?  Because it was not the right thing to do.  As Tin Cup said, it was a defining moment, and when a defining moment comes along, you either define the moment, or the moment defines you.

Yes Theon had his reasons, we all do for everything we do in life.  But I can not think of a single reason to murder a child, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Sandor, Theon, Robert, to name a few, all had their reasons, but their reasons fall flat in the face of any kind of moral scrutiny, and frankly, IMHO, their reasons speak more to their own cowardice, than anything else.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

I never liked Theon, I never found anything to like about him. And we are introduced to him via POVs who seem to not like him either - Jon, Cat and Bran. Maybe if we saw him from Robb's POV I would have found something to like.

After his - in my eyes - treachery of the Staks and his talking Winterfell I started hating him. I am not happy about what Ramsay did to him, but I was hoping for someone to do something bad to Theon. And I never felt as bad for Theon's reek-tifying as I would have if it had been most other characters.

I am a little shocked to see some people excusing and explaining away Theon murdering children. This must be how those women who marries murderes on death row justify the actions as well. In my eyes nothing makes killing children okay, I don't care even the tiniest bit what that person had gone through in life before that. A lot of sexual offenders have been sexually abused themselves, but that doesn't make me have any sympathy for them.

I wonder if some of the Theon fans would feel differently if it was Bran and Rickon he had killed? Is it because it children we do not know as readers that it is excusable? 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Anirbas said:

I know that you didn't think he's evil (or I don't remember, but I believe you) but I'm not replying exclusively to you

I know you're not only replying to me, but you tend to mention each person in every part of your post you're addressing before making your arguments, and I have only tried to answer and quote those paragraphs that were directed at me. And yes, in those paragraphs you argued several times to me that "he's not evil" as if I need convincing of that. Please argue that to those people who call him evil, instead of addressing it to me, because it comes off as strawman.

 

2 hours ago, Anirbas said:

I don't justify his action, I don't say that he's innocent, but at least I try to understand why a young man accepts to do such a terrible act as killing children and in my opinion it's pretty tragic.

Here's what I have a problem with: you seem to assume that because people express their disgust over the choices he made that they don't understand him. You assume automatically that understanding Theon would make his actions and consequentionally who he is and was at that point in time less abhorent in a reader's eyes. That might be for you, but it's not the case of other readers. Your "at least" suggests that others do not understand him, nor try to. You don't know that. What it does show is how some people's values are not deterred by understanding a person better. What it shows is how people refuse to sympathize with someone because of their actions, despite understanding them. 

I'll give a very extreme example: I understand pretty well how the ex-psychopath in my life thinks, operates, functions, grew up, etc... I understand his motivations. None of that changes the harm he caused to others, family, lovers, "friends", children, society. I understand him, but I certainly do not sympathize with him, not a bit.

You are equaling "understanding" with "sympathizing". I understand Theon. I don't sympathize with him. And I think many people here giving their opinion you argue with do too.

2 hours ago, Anirbas said:

I hadn't read the added part of this post: the example you do it's pretty ridiculous because Jon Snow has his ass saved by others every time he's in a "problematic" situation (Qhorin, Bran/Summer in the case above, his brothers when he tried to desert the NW to join Robb).

No, it's far from ridiculous. It doesn't really matter that Summer saved him, because Jon made the decision not to kill the old man without knowing Summer was there. Jon believed he would die if he refused. And he also beleived that he could not save the old man by refusing. And yet, he still refused. It is a highly controversial choice, because that moral choice has a history of being the topic of a thread with various views on what the most moral choice was, given the fact that a dead Jon could not warn CB of the wildlings attacking from the South.

As for his brothers. They could not have stopped him that night, nor other nights, if Jon did not make that choice. That's why George had Jeor talk with Jon about other nights. They didn't capture him, bound hm and carried him back. They ran after him and made him see he was wrong. And he listened. That was Jon's choice. In comparison Asha comes to Winterfell to save her brother's ass, and gives very good reasons for her counsel. Theon chooses to completely ignore her advice. Luwin comes along on the search for Bran and Rickon and counsels him not to harm the boys. Theon chooses to completely ignore Luwin's advice and follow Reek's hint. And it was an utterly unsound choice, even strategically. Not only did he reveal he had no Stark hostages anymore. He told it to the world and made himself out as the most hateful man in the North in a castle that he could not hope to keep or defend for a prolonged time.

As for Qhorin. It was Qhorin's plan all along, the moment he ordered Jon to do what needed to be done after capturing Ygritte. It certainly became his plan once they were on the run after Ghost had been attacked by the eagle. Regardless of Qhorin's plan, Jon could still have chosen not to desert. Qhorin's plan would not have worked without Jon's cooperation.

Whether someone saved him or not, does not make Jon's choices any less of his choices.

 

Quote

And as I said, he accepted to do the baby swap that could end with the sacrifice  of Gilly's baby, it's not a direct murder but it's the only actual controversial choice he had to face,

Correction: Jon proposed the baby swap. But you imply here that Jon intended for Gilly's baby to be burned by Melisandre, which assumes a little too much. Jon could still prevent any baby being burned by telling Mel that he's just Gilly's baby. He's not in any position to disclose it for the moment, but Val certainly can.

As for the bold: clearly you have no idea what "making choices" means. You mix up "choice" with "result". See above.

Very simple example of a standard fairytale motif: a beggar on the road. One riders never stops for the beggar, spits on him or nearly rides him down, goes around the bend and breaks his neck. The other rider stops and shares his last food or money with the beggar. Turns out the beggar is a benefactor in disguise with some worthwhile advice or some magical gift. Two different choices, regardless of the outcomes in a similar situation. Now let's switch that around. The first rider chose to nearly ride down the beggar but arrives safely at his destination. The second rider shares his food or money, does get some gift, but finds himself lost in the wilderness and dies from starvation.

None of the 4 different results alter the fact that the characters made a choice in relation to the beggar.

Dictionary: "choice"

noun

1.

an act or instance of choosing; selection:

Her choice of a computer was made after months of research. His parents were not happy with his choice of friends.

2.

the right, power, or opportunity to choose; option:

The child had no choice about going to school.

3.

the person or thing chosen or eligible to be chosen:

This book is my choice. He is one of many choices for the award.

4.

an alternative:

There is another choice.

 

Do you see "result" or "saved" in the explanation of the meaning of the word "choice"? I don't.

[INCBlackbird]

51 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

@INCBlackbird, wait, what?  Ned has the blood of children on his hands?  His core defining character trait was the protection of children, above his honor, duty, and even his own personal safety.

Theon killed two children for fear of being mocked, right?  There are two instances of Stark's, the family he wants to be like, that fly in the face of his reasoning;

Ned to Bran, "that is the only time a man can be brave, when he is afraid."  Fear is an emotion that can be harnessed and controlled like any other; joy, anger, etc.

Then we have Jon with the wildlings in aSoS, and for me, this scenario is clearly juxtaposed against Theon's own.  Jon is ordered to kill an old man or his life is forfeit.  The man is old, alone in the north with winter coming, and besides, the old man is dead whether Jon does the deed himself.  So why not save his own skin?  Because it was not the right thing to do.  As Tin Cup said, it was a defining moment, and when a defining moment comes along, you either define the moment, or the moment defines you.

Yes Theon had his reasons, we all do for everything we do in life.  But I can not think of a single reason to murder a child, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Sandor, Theon, Robert, to name a few, all had their reasons, but their reasons fall flat in the face of any kind of moral scrutiny, and frankly, IMHO, their reasons speak more to their own cowardice, than anything else.

In an indirect way he definitly does. First of all, he fought in a war, second of all he approved of a war (see his conversation with littlefinger), thirdly he took Theon hostage and in doing so agreed to kill him if nessacary. If his core defining character trait was to protect children he's a hypocrite. And no i'm not saying Ned is bad, he's also one of the many, and he's also highborn therefor it's almost unavoidable to have blood (including the blood of children) on your hands.

Actually, fear is very difficult to control. I mentioned before in this thread that I have an anxiety disorder. I feel fear on a daily basis for things that no one should feel fear for. a few weeks ago I had to go to London by bus, that caused a panic attack so bad that I ended up being dizzy due to chronical hyperventilation for two weeks. And no amount of rational thinking could control my fear. Furthermore fear and a lack of control are inherently linked, generally we are afraid when we are not in control. Do you blame me for that? is it my fault that I am autistic and because it wasn't discovered at an early age I ended up with an anxiety disorder. I really hope you don't blame me for my psychological problems, neither do I blame Theon for his. Also feelings in general aren't a choice they happen to us. And if we have to learn to control our feelings (like I am trying to) we need lots and lots of therapy, therapy doesn't exist in westeros, everyone just has to suck it up and move on, some people *cough*Theon*cough* are too damaged to do that.

Jon does not have Theon's psychological issues, he's a much more self aware person, very rational, very in control of himself.

The difference is that Cersei for example doesn't have empathy, and therefore doesn't feel guilt, Theon does.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

8 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Actually, fear is very difficult to control. I mentioned before in this thread that I have an anxiety disorder. I feel fear on a daily basis for things that no one should feel fear for. a few weeks ago I had to go to London by bus, that caused a panic attack so bad that I ended up being dizzy due to chronical hyperventilation for two weeks. And no amount of rational thinking could control my fear. Furthermore fear and a lack of control are inherently linked, generally we are afraid when we are not in control. Do you blame me for that? is it my fault that I am autistic and because it wasn't discovered at an early age I ended up with an anxiety disorder. I really hope you don't blame me for my psychological problems, neither do I blame Theon for his. Also feelings in general aren't a choice they happen to us. And if we have to learn to control our feelings (like I am trying to) we need lots and lots of therapy, therapy doesn't exist in westeros, everyone just has to suck it up and move on, some people *cough*Theon*cough* are too damaged to do that.

 

Although this was not address at me, I am just going to jump in.

I very much doubt that anyone would blame you for any psychological disorders. Or that anyone blames Theon for his. We just don't accept them as an excuse for his actions.

I suffer from anxiety as well, and have been though two severe depressions and PTSD. I don't think anyone (well very few) people blame me for that. But if I killed someone while depressed they would definitely blame me for those actions. Yes, the depression would influence my thinking and reasoning, but I would still have chosen my actions and I would be a killer. 

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

Although this was not address at me, I am just going to jump in.

I very much doubt that anyone would blame you for any psychological disorders. Or that anyone blames Theon for his. We just don't accept them as an excuse for his actions.

I suffer from anxiety as well, and have been though two severe depressions and PTSD. I don't think anyone (well very few) people blame me for that. But if I killed someone while depressed they would definitely blame me for those actions. Yes, the depression would influence my thinking and reasoning, but I would still have chosen my actions and I would be a killer. 

The murder would still be your responsibility (as it is Theon's) but in court the depression would be a mitigating circemstance. That is my point.

Furthermore this was a respons to someone saying that Theon should have controlled his fear, which is not something you can simply demand of a person. And in my opinion that is blaming him for his psychological issues. it's like telling me that I should just take control over my panic attacks. The reason I have them is cause I can't control them. The reason Theon is afraid is because he can't control himself (or the situation)

[King Ned Stark]

1 hour ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

Although this was not address at me, I am just going to jump in.

I very much doubt that anyone would blame you for any psychological disorders. Or that anyone blames Theon for his. We just don't accept them as an excuse for his actions.

I suffer from anxiety as well, and have been though two severe depressions and PTSD. I don't think anyone (well very few) people blame me for that. But if I killed someone while depressed they would definitely blame me for those actions. Yes, the depression would influence my thinking and reasoning, but I would still have chosen my actions and I would be a killer. 

This, I apologize if I came across as insensitive, it was nothing personal to you @INCBlackbirdor anyone else.  But succumbing to fear and say, lying to your parent/teacher/boss is one thing, ordering the murder of two children something entirely different.  My own sons are 4 and 10, so there is that.  But when can only view things through the filter of our own experiences.

As far as the Ned goes, we can agree to disagree, this is your Theon thread, I don't want to detract from that.

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

This, I apologize if I came across as insensitive, it was nothing personal to you @INCBlackbirdor anyone else.  But succumbing to fear and say, lying to your parent/teacher/boss is one thing, ordering the murder of two children something entirely different.  My own sons are 4 and 10, so there is that.  But when can only view things through the filter of our own experiences.

As far as the Ned goes, we can agree to disagree, this is your Theon thread, I don't want to detract from that.

whatever you do as a consequence of the fear you're succumbing to doesn't change how difficult it is not to succumb to it. If a person has psychological issues they don't just get over it when they are faced with a difficult choice, if anything it'll increase their issues.
I have to go back to the point I made earlier in this thread about how many characters (including Theon) are part of the nobility in a middle aged society and therefor hold a lot of power, they hold a lot of lives in their hands and therefor the decisions they have to make have way more severe consequences. a child who lies to their parents because they are afraid of the consequences of not doing is not faced with the same choice Theon was (because they don't hold the same amount of power) the consequences are less severe both for themselves and others. The choice Theon had to make on the other hand involved the lives of two children and his own life, therefore that choice is a much harder one to make, and I honestly don't think it can be expected of someone who has severe psychological issues and who is very immature still to make the right choice in this situation. No one is that well adjusted that with Theon's history they would have been emotionally stable enough to deal with what he had to deal with. You are asking the impossible of Theon, as are many other people in this thread.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

A lot of sexual offenders have been sexually abused themselves, but that doesn't make me have any sympathy for them.

Actually that's a myth. It's a tiny minority of people who were abused in their youth that become abusers as well. A great majority will not. And the offenders might still have become offenders even if they had not been abused in their youth.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

I very much doubt that anyone would blame you for any psychological disorders. Or that anyone blames Theon for his. We just don't accept them as an excuse for his actions.

I suffer from anxiety as well, and have been though two severe depressions and PTSD. I don't think anyone (well very few) people blame me for that. But if I killed someone while depressed they would definitely blame me for those actions. Yes, the depression would influence my thinking and reasoning, but I would still have chosen my actions and I would be a killer. 

Exactly! A lot of people go through ID crisis, existential crisis, PTSD (none of which are pathological, but reactionary), and many people have pathologies. The sole ones that I can consider of having an actual excuse of committing harmful actions towards others are those suffering from an actual full blown psychotic episode at the time where they have a hallucination in that moment of someone attacking them, and thus act in self-defense against a hallucination (hence hearing voices saying to kill someone are not an excuse either for me). Or someone simple-minded like in Of Mice and Men. 

[INCBlackbird]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly! A lot of people go through ID crisis, existential crisis, PTSD (none of which are pathological, but reactionary), and many people have pathologies. The sole ones that I can consider of having an actual excuse of committing harmful actions towards others are those suffering from an actual full blown psychotic episode at the time where they have a hallucination in that moment of someone attacking them, and thus act in self-defense against a hallucination (hence hearing voices saying to kill someone are not an excuse either for me). Or someone simple-minded like in Of Mice and Men. 

and who said it's an excuse? again I have to go with the concept of miigating circemsances, like I said before. Also that post where I pointed out that expecting Theon to not be affected by his psychological problems and just get over it is expecting him to do the impossible.