WI Aegon II had legitimized Gaemon?

[Jaak]

Seriously?

He had the little problem that his trueborn sons were dead, and his trueborn daughter simple. He did expect to have trueborn children by a Baratheon wife - but a heir would have helped rally the Greens.

So, what would have happened if Aegon legitimized Gaemon and entrusted Gaemon to his grandmother, on ground that she would be wiser than Gaemon's slut of a mother?

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Jaak said:

Seriously?

He had the little problem that his trueborn sons were dead, and his trueborn daughter simple. He did expect to have trueborn children by a Baratheon wife - but a heir would have helped rally the Greens.

So, what would have happened if Aegon legitimized Gaemon and entrusted Gaemon to his grandmother, on ground that she would be wiser than Gaemon's slut of a mother?

He might even have done that if Gaemon truly was his son and he had not been forced by Corlys Velaryon to name Aegon the Younger his heir.

But then - the boy was the son of a whore which isn't the kind of king the nobles would want. And as you said, he most likely intended to produce new heirs with his Baratheon wife. And he did not plan to die in the near future.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 hours ago, Jaak said:

Seriously?

He had the little problem that his trueborn sons were dead, and his trueborn daughter simple. He did expect to have trueborn children by a Baratheon wife - but a heir would have helped rally the Greens.

So, what would have happened if Aegon legitimized Gaemon and entrusted Gaemon to his grandmother, on ground that she would be wiser than Gaemon's slut of a mother?

Aegon had planned on marrying again, and would have expected to have children by his new bride. Legitimizing Gaemon, even if the boy had been Aegon's bastard son, would have only created a danger to the claims of Aegon's future children by his Baratheon wife. 

Also, it would likely have angered House Baratheon, who, besides the Hightowers, were Aegon's biggest and strongest supporters, if I'm recalling it correctly.

[Summer Islander Prince]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Aegon had planned on marrying again, and would have expected to have children by his new bride. Legitimizing Gaemon, even if the boy had been Aegon's bastard son, would have only created a danger to the claims of Aegon's future children by his Baratheon wife. 

Also, it would likely have angered House Baratheon, who, besides the Hightowers, were Aegon's biggest and strongest supporters, if I'm recalling it correctly.

 

Eh, not really. Borros only joined up with the Greens because Aegon's brother, Aemond, offered to marry his eldest daughter. His father, Ormund, was actually a strong supporter of Rhaenyra.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Aegon had planned on marrying again, and would have expected to have children by his new bride. Legitimizing Gaemon, even if the boy had been Aegon's bastard son, would have only created a danger to the claims of Aegon's future children by his Baratheon wife. 

Also, it would likely have angered House Baratheon, who, besides the Hightowers, were Aegon's biggest and strongest supporters, if I'm recalling it correctly.

That's something I've always wondered about, we're told he took the greens side, but do we ever hear of him doing anything after that?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

43 minutes ago, Summer Islander Prince said:

Eh, not really. Borros only joined up with the Greens because Aegon's brother, Aemond, offered to marry his eldest daughter. His father, Ormund, was actually a strong supporter of Rhaenyra.

That was at the start of the war, when Aegon still had three living heirs and a wife. By the time Aegon reveals his survival, after Maelor had died, however, the Baratheons are firlmy on Aegon's side, having taken King's Landing back from the pretender kings.

So yes, House Baratheon was,  during the last half year of the war, a strong supporter of Aegon II. Who inherited the rule of Storm's End and the Stormlands after Borros died is unknown (we don't know if he had any sons), but nonetheless, whether Aegon II had already married his Baratheon girl or was only stil betrothed at the time of Borros's death, Aegon II legitimizing a bastard boy and naming him his heir would either endanger the claims of any child he would ever have by his Baratheon bride, or completely place the bastard child in front of any children Aegon would have by his Baratheon bride. And I do not except that that would have been acceptable to the Baratheons.

 

Btw, Borros's father had been Boremund, who had been a staunch friend to Princess Rhaenys, and her uncle, too. Lord Ormund was Ormund Hightower, the nephew to Ser Otto Hightower, Aegon II's grandfather.

 

14 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That's something I've always wondered about, we're told he took the greens side, but do we ever hear of him doing anything after that?

Lord Borros marched to King's Landing, conquered it in Aegon II's name during the Moon of the Three Kings, and, after having arranged the betrothal of one of his daughters to the king, marched to fight in the Battle of the Kingsroad, where he died.

During the first ~1,5 years of the war, he didn't do much.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There is no reason to believe that Gaemon was his son and who would ever had bend the knee to a whore's son? After all at the end Aegon II felt and Aegon III became the King, it wasn't a matter of the usurper's choice.

[Jaak]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is no reason to believe that Gaemon was his son

Aegon was certainly known to have had 2 bastards in the single year after his wedding. How many in the years since? And what were those bastards doing for the Moon of Three Kings?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Aegon was certainly known to have had 2 bastards in the single year after his wedding. How many in the years since? And what were those bastards doing for the Moon of Three Kings?

Gaemon might very well have been one of those acknowledged bastards. Later on they could have 'found out' that Aegon II wasn't the father but that Lysene sailor. Or rather they might have decided to force the poor mother of the boy to confess something like that.

It is odd that Aegon II did spare the boy's life and intended to raise him at court.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Gaemon's own mother admitted he wasn't a Targ bastard...

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Gaemon's own mother admitted he wasn't a Targ bastard...

Yeah. But what's that worth? Tyanna also confessed she poisoned Maegor's other wives. Does this mean this is true? I doubt the boy's mother was casually asked about the true parentage of the boy. It is much more likely she was questioned rather harshly (that means threatened or tortured). And that Lysene sailor most likely wasn't around to confirm her story.

The idea that the court would take in some lowborn whore son isn't very likely. Nor does it make sense that Aegon II would pardon this boy when he actually executed Trystane Truefyre.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 hours ago, Jaak said:

Aegon was certainly known to have had 2 bastards in the single year after his wedding. How many in the years since? And what were those bastards doing for the Moon of Three Kings?

Aegon's bastards were born in 123, one boy and one girl. In any case, the fact that he had other bastards doesn't mean that there was a reason for him or anyone else to believe that Gaemon was his.

[Universal Sword Donor]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah. But what's that worth? Tyanna also confessed she poisoned Maegor's other wives. Does this mean this is true? I doubt the boy's mother was casually asked about the true parentage of the boy. It is much more likely she was questioned rather harshly (that means threatened or tortured). And that Lysene sailor most likely wasn't around to confirm her story.

The idea that the court would take in some lowborn whore son isn't very likely. Nor does it make sense that Aegon II would pardon this boy when he actually executed Trystane Truefyre.

Maybe but she was hung without any description of torture, whereas we know Tyanna was tortured. The book isn't exactly squeamish about pointing that out, especially wrt to Dance of the Dragons. Coupled with that omission, the odds of Aegon II being the father vs a random Lysene oarsman, of which I'm sure there were hundreds coming through the city every month if not more, aren't looking very good.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Maybe but she was hung without any description of torture, whereas we know Tyanna was tortured.

We don't know that for a certainty. The word Ran and Linda used is 'confessed'. That isn't very precise. Her guilty conscience could have overcome so that she confessed the truth to Maegor more or less out of the blue. Not very likely but still a possibility.

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The book isn't exactly squeamish about pointing that out, especially wrt to Dance of the Dragons. Coupled with that omission, the odds of Aegon II being the father vs a random Lysene oarsman, of which I'm sure there were hundreds coming through the city every month if not more, aren't looking very good.

That may be an exaggeration. One also has to ask the question how it came to be that this Gaemon Palehair was proclaimed king. If there are so many Valyrian sailors frequenting the brothels of King's Landing then there should be quite a few of those boys, not just Gaemon. The boy also had a Targaryen name (unlike Trystane Truefyre) which could be another hint that the boy might have been originally acknowledged by Aegon II.

The other thing is that Gaemon's mother must have been a rich whore or at least a whore in an upper-class brothel like Chataya's. Such an establishment is also very likely to be frequented by Aegon the Elder, making it at least very likely that he at least had carnal knowledge of the woman. If Aegon II had never frequented the brothel of Gaemon's mother then the sudden proclamation that the boy was Aegon's son wouldn't have been very believable.

In addition, an expensive brothel wouldn't be the place where the average Lysene oarsman/sailor would have fun. Such men would go to the cheaper whorehouses.

Still, perhaps people were ready to believe anything at that point but we don't know that yet.

But then, Aegon II showing mercy is odd. Even more so the fact that the boy was raised at court. Why would Aegon II or anybody at court do such a thing?

Perhaps Trystane was a fake - but even if not he would just have been another half-sibling of Aegon II and he has no issues killing those - but if Gaemon was Aegon's own son it would make sense for him to not kill him. Killing your own child surely ranks among the vilest crimes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know that for a certainty. The word Ran and Linda used is 'confessed'. That isn't very precise. Her guilty conscience could have overcome so that she confessed the truth to Maegor more or less out of the blue. Not very likely but still a possibility.

That may be an exaggeration. One also has to ask the question how it came to be that this Gaemon Palehair was proclaimed king. If there are so many Valyrian sailors frequenting the brothels of King's Landing then there should be quite a few of those boys, not just Gaemon. The boy also had a Targaryen name (unlike Trystane Truefyre) which could be another hint that the boy might have been originally acknowledged by Aegon II.

The other thing is that Gaemon's mother must have been a rich whore or at least a whore in an upper-class brothel like Chataya's. Such an establishment is also very likely to be frequented by Aegon the Elder, making it at least very likely that he at least had carnal knowledge of the woman. If Aegon II had never frequented the brothel of Gaemon's mother then the sudden proclamation that the boy was Aegon's son wouldn't have been very believable.

In addition, an expensive brothel wouldn't be the place where the average Lysene oarsman/sailor would have fun. Such men would go to the cheaper whorehouses.

Still, perhaps people were ready to believe anything at that point but we don't know that yet.

But then, Aegon II showing mercy is odd. Even more so the fact that the boy was raised at court. Why would Aegon II or anybody at court do such a thing?

Perhaps Trystane was a fake - but even if not he would just have been another half-sibling of Aegon II and he has no issues killing those - but if Gaemon was Aegon's own son it would make sense for him to not kill him. Killing your own child surely ranks among the vilest crimes.

The difference between the situations of Trystane and Gaemon was that Trystane had taken the Red Keep as his seat, whereas Gaemon remained in his mother's whorehouse. Additionally, Trystane was a man grown, having been sixteen when he was crowned. Gaemon was only four. Those two things could have played a role as to why Gaemon's life was spared.

King Aegon II showing mercy to Gaemon, could help increase his popularity as well.

Who knows. Perhaps Gaemon was his bastard.. And perhaps not.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know that for a certainty. The word Ran and Linda used is 'confessed'. That isn't very precise. Her guilty conscience could have overcome so that she confessed the truth to Maegor more or less out of the blue. Not very likely but still a possibility.

Fair point. I conflated her torturing with her torture it appears.

That may be an exaggeration. One also has to ask the question how it came to be that this Gaemon Palehair was proclaimed king. If there are so many Valyrian sailors frequenting the brothels of King's Landing then there should be quite a few of those boys, not just Gaemon. The boy also had a Targaryen name (unlike Trystane Truefyre) which could be another hint that the boy might have been originally acknowledged by Aegon II.

I mean, I doubt it. Lyseni tend toward being blonde. KL is a city of 500K and does a ton of trading. Galleys in from Lys, a heavily mercantile city-state, are going to be pretty common. If 3-4 Lyseni galleys land there a month, you have your hundreds.

The other thing is that Gaemon's mother must have been a rich whore or at least a whore in an upper-class brothel like Chataya's. Such an establishment is also very likely to be frequented by Aegon the Elder, making it at least very likely that he at least had carnal knowledge of the woman. If Aegon II had never frequented the brothel of Gaemon's mother then the sudden proclamation that the boy was Aegon's son wouldn't have been very believable.

There is absolutely no support for that. If she worked in a high-class brothel, she would indeed be more likely to have been bedded by Aegon II. If we look to the comparable pretenders or influential people in that immediate scene, we see The Sheperd, a one-handed religious demagogue who was a no one before the riots in KL, or Ser Perkin the Flea, a hedge knight. Neither of them was rich or a mover/shaker before the collapse of KL law and order. 

In addition, an expensive brothel wouldn't be the place where the average Lysene oarsman/sailor would have fun. Such men would go to the cheaper whorehouses.

True but immaterial since there is no evidence for the expensive brothel.

Still, perhaps people were ready to believe anything at that point but we don't know that yet.

But then, Aegon II showing mercy is odd. Even more so the fact that the boy was raised at court. Why would Aegon II or anybody at court do such a thing?

Not really odd. He didn't execute his niece who killed Sunfyre. He needed an heir and wasn't really in a position to spurn the only living male heir who could also end the war.

Perhaps Trystane was a fake - but even if not he would just have been another half-sibling of Aegon II and he has no issues killing those - but if Gaemon was Aegon's own son it would make sense for him to not kill him. Killing your own child surely ranks among the vilest crimes.

Aegon III was not a unique case as his sisters were not executed either. Gaemon not being executed gives a little substance as Truefyre was, but it's hardly worth noting to be honest. 

You're making a far stronger case for "Aegon II thought Gaemon might be his son" than "Gaemon was his son".

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The difference between the situations of Trystane and Gaemon was that Trystane had taken the Red Keep as his seat, whereas Gaemon remained in his mother's whorehouse. Additionally, Trystane was a man grown, having been sixteen when he was crowned. Gaemon was only four. Those two things could have played a role as to why Gaemon's life was spared.

Sure. But then - Ser Perkin the Flea, the man who made Trystane king, was spared and Trystane executed. Why was that? And while there is the claim that Gaemon wasn't Aegon's son there is no confirmation that Trystane was not Aegon's half-brother. It is odd to spare a boy who is not your son and kill a man who might have been your half-brother.

45 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

King Aegon II showing mercy to Gaemon, could help increase his popularity as well.

That is not very likely considering that his popularity should have been at an all-time low at this point. Not to mention that this story wouldn't have been widespread throughout the kingdom anyway.

 

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I mean, I doubt it. Lyseni tend toward being blonde. KL is a city of 500K and does a ton of trading. Galleys in from Lys, a heavily mercantile city-state, are going to be pretty common. If 3-4 Lyseni galleys land there a month, you have your hundreds.

Sure, it certainly is possible. I'm not insisting on the Aegon II possibility.

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

There is absolutely no support for that. If she worked in a high-class brothel, she would indeed be more likely to have been bedded by Aegon II. If we look to the comparable pretenders or influential people in that immediate scene, we see The Sheperd, a one-handed religious demagogue who was a no one before the riots in KL, or Ser Perkin the Flea, a hedge knight. Neither of them was rich or a mover/shaker before the collapse of KL law and order.

The latter part certainly is true. But the Shepherd must have been a charismatic guy at least and might have been a pseudonym used by a man who was actually well known in his time. Some nobody is not likely to be an inspiring speaker.

Perkin the Flea was a hedge knight but that doesn't mean he did not have connections or the opportunity to make a bastard of Viserys I his squire. In a time of unrest that's enough to make some sort of move.

But there are definitely hints that the House of Kisses, the brothel which became the seat of King Gaemon, was indeed some sort of upper-class brothel because it is unlikely that the followers of this boy king - and he had thousands - would have made some shabby house his residence. That brothel must have been in a villa or a manse.

In fact, it could have been in the former royal manse Aenys I and his family lived in while the Red Keep was built. That was on Visenya's Hill where the Great Sept would eventually be build but at this time nothing of importance was there yet.

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

True but immaterial since there is no evidence for the expensive brothel.

See above.

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Not really odd. He didn't execute his niece who killed Sunfyre. He needed an heir and wasn't really in a position to spurn the only living male heir who could also end the war.

Baela Targaryen wasn't Aegon II's niece. And it wasn't his decision to spare her life. Whether Aegon would have done so had he known that Sunfyre would die is not very likely. But later on he needed her as a hostage, I guess. She would have given him more leverage over Corlys Velaryon than Aegon the Younger.

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Aegon III was not a unique case as his sisters were not executed either. Gaemon not being executed gives a little substance as Truefyre was, but it's hardly worth noting to be honest. 

Aegon II did only capture Baela. Rhaena seems to have been in the Vale or with the Vale troops. There is no reason to believe she was ever captured by the Greens.

50 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You're making a far stronger case for "Aegon II thought Gaemon might be his son" than "Gaemon was his son".

I know. I'm not saying Gaemon was Aegon II's son. I just think it is not unlikely that he was or that Aegon II believed he might be.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not very likely considering that his popularity should have been at an all-time low at this point. Not to mention that this story wouldn't have been widespread throughout the kingdom anyway.

Would that not be all the more reason not to kill a four year old child?

[Jaak]

20 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Aegon's bastards were born in 123, one boy and one girl. In any case, the fact that he had other bastards doesn't mean that there was a reason for him or anyone else to believe that Gaemon was his.

There was not reason for him, but there WAS reason for everyone else to believe. Even Essie.

How did Essie know it was a Lyseni sailor, specifically? Might have been Volantene, might have been a dragonseed from Dragonstone...

Essie might very well have acknowledged that Aegon II was not Gaemon´s father after all, but denied lying about it. Like: "I´d only seen you from a distance riding the streets of King´s Landing among your guards. He did look much like you. Now I´ve the chance to get a closer view of you, and you are sure you didn´t see me, I agree that it was not quite you - must have been someone who looked much like you. No idea who specifically, then."

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

There was not reason for him, but there WAS reason for everyone else to believe. Even Essie.

I don't see it. Since the Targs are not the only people with silver hairs I don't see why someone should believe that Gaemon was a Targ bastard.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

How did Essie know it was a Lyseni sailor, specifically? Might have been Volantene, might have been a dragonseed from Dragonstone...

Maybe because she knew him?