Wizz-The-Smith Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 On 21/10/2016 at 8:53 PM, ravenous reader said: Great essay @Wizz-The-Smith! Early in AGOT, there's a hint that much of the life of the story that GRRM has written will take place 'underground': Hey Ravenous Reader, and thanks. The ideas of @Seams and yourself were very important in leading me to the hollow hills. Both of you are great posters and I always enjoy your posts/ideas. I like the text you quoted to accompany the notion that much of this story will take place underground, the Riverland's is much the same. When the BWB travel through the RL's, they are sometimes encountered by seemingly empty villages, but a blast of a horn confirmed the smallfolk were okay to come out of their hiding holes, and suddenly many appear. On 21/10/2016 at 8:53 PM, ravenous reader said: You seem () to have uncovered three main functions of the subterranean space motivating someone to 'go underground'-- (1) magical, (2) political and (3) practical . I 'fell' upon it. Thanks again @Seams On 21/10/2016 at 8:53 PM, ravenous reader said: I'm not sure to what extent all of these three elements-- magical, political and practical -- have to be present simultaneously every time an underground location is in question. Also, do you really think a hill is necessarily crucial? As I've mentioned to you before, Greywater Watch is also a magically-warded castle -- perhaps the most highly-fortified and mysterious in the entire kingdom (even the ravens can't find it, so it might as well be in a cave!) -- however located in a low-lying bog, so perhaps the subaquatic is equivalent to the subterranean in terms of magic. An exploration of the subaquatic/subterannean realm more generally opens up further possibilities. I think the three elements being present simultaneously at an underground site may point to it being of particular importance/power in the past? But there seems to be plenty of examples where the presence of the three don't seem absolutely necessary. I agree it's unclear at the moment, but certainly worth noting these things as we continue to identify these underground sites. And yes, while the hills/hollow hills are numerous and important to show the pattern in my essay, no I don’t think a hill is always crucial, you give a good example with Greywater Watch. The constant seems to be the presence or possible presence of cave systems, caverns or subterranean access of some sort, and then the obvious link therefore to the underworld etc... I agree the subaquatic is perhaps the same as the subterranean in terms of magic, [Patchface?] and as you suggest, the bogs of the Neck are very interesting in that regard. The islands are interesting as well, and I know you have some ideas about that off the back of Seams' thread Seams, portals and bridges - The Magical Landscape of Westeros ... as do I, definitely something I want to investigate further in this thread. On 21/10/2016 at 8:53 PM, ravenous reader said: What do you think of Mole's Town as potential locus of magic..? At the least, GRRM's description of Mole's Town seems to be an allegory of how to interpret 'hollow hills' elsewhere, even though it doesn't seem to be located on a hill itself: I think you make a great case for Mole's Town being a potential locus of magic, awesome post. I agree that the description of Mole's Town sounds very much like the hollow hills with the majority of it being underground and larger than it seemed etc. And I love that you link that with the Bran passage about Winterfell after it's sacking. I agree with the notion that the burning has only touched the surface and there is more to these sites than meets the eye. I posted up thread about that passage and the line 'the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones.' Perhaps hinting at the Kings of Winter sitting their weirwood thrones ala Bloodraven and Bran? Thank you for pointing out @Seams idea that there may be a play on the words seemed - seamed going on. The sites you link with this possibility dovetail nicely with the potential magical sites I have highlighted in my essay and subsequent posts. [The Night Fort and HotBaW] And I really like your thoughts on 'the lantern shining like a bloodshot eye' being reminiscent of our greenseers as well, great catch. On 21/10/2016 at 8:53 PM, ravenous reader said: Talking of 'fells,' here we have a Lord Harwood Fell...ruins of an old smithy...bronze scale...bound to be magical... Then, following in quick succession, a slew of magical northern ghostly old gods references: 'living dead... wights'...'broken men' like Bran and the rest of the symbolic 'broken swords'; 'grey and gaunt' like the Starks and their wolves (some of the men are directly compared to 'wolves among these sheep'); and significantly cripples 'legless...on crude crutches...missing hands...one eye or half a face or legless, men with one eye or half a face...' evoking Bloodraven, Bran, Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, Euron, etc. the gamut of 'cripples, bastards, and broken things' who will ironically be instrumental in restoring the realm in the war(s) to come. Nice! I absolutely love this. Not only have you linked the 'fell - seam' wordplay, [Mole's Town being a potential magic seam in the landscape and Harwood 'Fell' doing the counting] but also Bloodraven, Bran, Jaime, Tyrion, Theon and Euron are all going to be important moving forward, and you have shown that all can be potentially linked with this underground/greenseer magic via the clever text we find when reading about Mole's Town. Brilliant. So yes, I think you have highlighted that Mole's Town is definitely another potential site we can link as a magical loci, great work as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 On 10/21/2016 at 8:07 PM, Seams said: Lots of interesting ideas, as usual rr, and you provoke some new thoughts in my mind. Thanks Seams! Quote I wonder whether there is a fourth function for underground spaces, or if this always occurs in conjunction with one of the other three? The category I would add would be a symbolic function. Sometimes it seems to me that a scene involves going into a tunnel or cellar for no particular reason except symbolism at that point in a character's arc. I'm thinking Arya is often down a hole or in an underground chamber - some of her scenes could as easily take place above ground, but I think GRRM wants her underground for some reason. Maybe it's just a good way to remind us that she is hiding - undercover, underfoot. I agree on the symbolic function, particularly pertaining to the characters' psychological transformation. The archetypal 'hero's journey' invariably involves a primal, chthonic descent into a kind of cave of night, before there can be a re-emergence from the 'soul crucible' -- the 'Dawn'! -- analogous to a chemical transmutation or indeed the forging of a sword. GRRM may be basing some of his symbolic ideas on alchemical principles and Jungian analytic psychology. According to this paradigm, the dark hollow (pun on hallow) would be represented by the 'vas' or vessel of the alchemical mixing pot with particular reference to the first stage of alchemy, 'nigredo': Quote From Wikipedia: In alchemy, nigredo, or blackness, means putrefaction or decomposition. Many alchemists believed that as a first step in the pathway to the philosopher's stone all alchemical ingredients had to be cleansed and cooked extensively to a uniform black matter. In analytical psychology, the term became a metaphor 'for the dark night of the soul, when an individual confronts the shadow within'. ... Further steps of the alchemical opus include such images as albedo (whiteness), citrinitas (yellowness), and rubedo (redness). Jung also found psychological equivalents for many other alchemical concepts, with 'the characterization of analytic work as an opus; the reference to the analytic relationship as a vas, vessel or container; the goal of the analytic process as the coniunctio, or union of conflicting opposites' Also, have a look at this article Alchemy: The Vessel on the three archetypal alchemical vessels (crucible, retort, and still) and their symbolism, of which the retort most likely but not exclusively resembles the cave, by someone named rather appropriately, considering the nature of our discussion, 'Soul Spelunker: exploring the caverns and grottoes of the soul'..! An excerpt: Quote McLean likens the retort to “a womb or matrix in which the process of gestation or new birth arising out of primal components, can safely take place in us.” The retort is said to be “hermetically sealed,” an homage to Hermes, the guide of souls to the Underworld and patron and teacher of alchemy. The energies are sealed away so as to provide a state of isolation from outside influences. This place of isolation within the retort is an imaginal space where the naturals laws of the universe can be carried out unimpeded. The qualities of the glass retort can be compared to the psyche... In line with our discussions around personified swords and people undergoing 'forging', this is a daunting process which always entails a dark phase of submersion-- i.e. literal 'going under' -- in fire and water. Your prior observations regarding 'Tobho Mott' being a wordplay/pun on 'hot tomb' or 'womb' are fitting here. Etymologically, a 'motte' is a mound or hill, and of course the hollow hill Deepwood Motte is related. In fact, Mott's smithy may be seen as one of those 'hollow hills' with himself as mystical gatekeeper to the underworld, complete with enormous pigeon sapphire, Qohori connections and weirwood-ebony door announcing his otherworldly, magical status. Note how the forge itself is located in a backroom not visible to the casual eye and described as a secret cave 'cavernous stone barn' harboring a 'dragon', to which access is reluctantly obtained via a 'rear door' (cf. the 'half-hidden' doors already identified in conjunction with 'more conventional' hollow hills elsewhere in @Wizz-The-Smith and @Macgregor of the North's posts) across a narrow yard like a tunnel, en route to a further secret embodied in Gendry himself, who is described as a kind of wild goat out of hell with his shaggy black hair, budding goatee, and fierce horned helm, together with the general 'hellfire, sulphur and brimstone' atmosphere of the forge. It's ironic, isn't it, that in order to descend into this netherworld, Ned must first climb to the very top of the hill?! A hollow hill indeed. Tobho's forge is thus positioned at the apex of the hill like a castle, with Tobho therefore the symbolic 'king of the castle.' GRRM enjoying his playful inversions-- an ascent coincident with a descent! Quote A Game of Thrones - Eddard VI Ned turned off the square where the Street of Steel began and followed its winding path up a long hill, past blacksmiths working at open forges, freeriders haggling over mail shirts, and grizzled ironmongers selling old blades and razors from their wagons. The farther they climbed, the larger the buildings grew. The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn. Ned left his horse with Jacks and shouldered his way inside. The slim young serving girl took quick note of Ned's badge and the sigil on his doublet, and the master came hurrying out, all smiles and bows. "Wine for the King's Hand," he told the girl, gesturing Ned to a couch. "I am Tobho Mott, my lord, please, please, put yourself at ease." He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread. Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon's egg. ... "The boy," Ned echoed. He had no notion who the boy might be. "I should like to see the boy as well." Tobho Mott gave him a cool, careful look. "As you wish, my lord," he said with no trace of his former friendliness. He led Ned out a rear door and across a narrow yard, back to the cavernous stone barn where the work was done. When the armorer opened the door, the blast of hot air that came through made Ned feel as though he were walking into a dragon's mouth. Inside, a forge blazed in each corner, and the air stank of smoke and sulfur. Journeymen armorers glanced up from their hammers and tongs just long enough to wipe the sweat from their brows, while bare-chested apprentice boys worked the bellows. The master called over a tall lad about Robb's age, his arms and chest corded with muscle. "This is Lord Stark, the new Hand of the King," he told him as the boy looked at Ned through sullen blue eyes and pushed back sweat-soaked hair with his fingers. Thick hair, shaggy and unkempt and black as ink. The shadow of a new beard darkened his jaw. "This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard. Show the Hand that helmet you made, lad." Almost shyly, the boy led them to his bench, and a steel helm shaped like a bull's head, with two great curving horns. Quote As for Mole's Town, I have had a notion for awhile that Jon's desertion ride from the Night's Watch after Ned's death was intended to be compared to Ned's secret nighttime visit to Catelyn at Littlefinger's brothel. The thing that initially caught my attention was a detail: both Jon and Littlefinger eat apples down to the core in these scenes. I can't find where I wrote this up in a previous comment, but the facts that Mole's Town is so closely identified with the brothel and that Ned was going to a brothel (to meet his wife) were other major parts of the comparison. Jon thinks about his NW brothers "digging for treasure"; Ned apparently IS a treasure - Catelyn whispered against his chest, and Littlefinger sarcastically says that Ned's gratitude is a "treasure." Jon spends a lot of time thinking about swords and about the dagger he brought along; Ned will receive from Catelyn the dagger that was used to attack Bran. Jon imagines a reunion with Robb; Catelyn tells Littlefinger his helpfulness makes her feel as if she has "found the brother [she'd] thought lost." How interesting Seams! There definitely seems to be a correlation made between the two nighttime sojourns of Jon and Ned involving the brothels, Mole's Town and Littlefinger's 'establishment' respectively (there's also the other brothel dangled before Ned and used as bait in order to waylay his departure from King's Landing), although I confess I'm not quite sure what to make of it. One thing to bear in mind though is that 'moles' in the sense of undercover agents may be duplicitous, so by extension perhaps that's an indication that Littlefinger similarly may not be everything he seems or claims to be. For one, he goes by quite a few aliases, even going so far as to invent his own sigil, fittingly a bird who pretends to be someone he's not. Indeed, a mockingbird can be thought of as a kind of 'mole,' using mimicry in order to infiltrate territory under false pretenses. Catelyn is mistaken in thinking that Littlefinger is an ally, let alone 'the brother she'd thought lost,' although there's also a certain irony attendant with the notion that Littlefinger is a lost brother. A 'lost brother' could also refer to Jon in the sense of a deserting brother of the Night's Watch. Applying the figure of 'deserter' to Littlefinger (lemonpie-plying Littlefinger needs to get his just des(s)erts soon don't you think..!), we can appreciate how treacherous Littlefinger has been to the Tully family who took him in as their ward, and in particular to Cat who arguably saved his life in the duel with Brandon, although of course Littlefinger would never see it that way. Cat rejected him in favor of Brandon and Ned, so now she needs to pay. His decision to place her in the brothel is an aggressive move, betraying his underlying hostility and resentment towards her. He sees her decision to marry the Stark brothers over him as a betrayal, so she needs to be symbolically 'made a whore' to satisfy his wounded narcissistic rage. Littlefinger is variously referred to by Cat as an 'almost brother,' 'more than brotherly' and a 'lost brother' all of which undercut or overstep the duties of brotherhood and are therefore false brothers -- just as the story behind the dagger is false and the brothel a false refuge. In contrast to Ned, who is taken in to the brothel by the brothelkeeper, thereby being figuratively 'taken in' by said brothelkeeper as well as becoming a 'kept man' of the same, Jon foregoes entering the brothel in much the same way he refuses to eat from Craster's table, thereby ensuring he does not sell himself out to these false masters, retaining his independence. Symbolically, 'digging for treasure in a brothel' is similar to 'forging a sword' in Tobho Mott's 'hot tomb/womb' or the configured sexuality of the whole Nissa Nissa story...One way in which Ned might be a treasure is effected by Littlefinger -- here playing the role of 'Smith' (red wanderer or thief) the agent of chaos out which order is paradoxically fashioned. Recently, @Pain killer Jane brought to my attention the following famous passage from Milton's 'Paradise Lost' (rather apt when you consider the symbology of Littlefinger the Lucifer chowing down on an apple as an emblem of temptation and 'the Fall' presaging as it does Ned's fall from grace): Quote Into this wild Abyss, 910 The womb of Nature, and perhaps her grave, Of neither Sea, nor Shore, nor Air, nor Fire, But all these in their pregnant causes mixed Confusedly, and which thus must ever fight, Unless the Almighty Maker them ordain 915 His dark materials to create more worlds— Into this wild Abyss the wary Fiend Stood on the brink of Hell and looked a while, Pondering his voyage; for no narrow frith He had to cross. By bringing about Ned's demise, in particular Ned's beheading at the hand of his own sword Ice, Littlefinger indirectly ensures that Ned's blood becomes symbolically imbued in the Valyrian steel -- I'd argue by the principles of 'fire and blood' magically supercharging the sword. The ripples of the reforged sword's colors are famously described as 'waves of night and blood' hungrily lapping against each other, 'drinking the sun.' In 'old gods' terms', Ned's blood is swallowed by his own sword which can now go forth in his stead and seek justice (or just 'Ice'), remaining highly instrumental in the kingdom, especially since his bones are not contained in the crypts. If a treasure is contained in a chest -- as you intimated by the description of Catelyn against his chest -- Littlefinger has inadvertently opened the treasure chest or tomb and let Ned forth! Quote But here's why this comes to mind again now and how it might relate to the hollow hills analysis: With Littlefinger's help, Ned climbs down the outside of Aegon's Hill (the hill on which the Red Keep is built), outside the castle wall, in order to keep the little trip as secret as possible. But they arrive at their destination and Ned goes inside the brothel. By contrast, as Jon rides south, he avoids Mole's Town and is not tempted to go into the complex. When Sansa escapes King's Landing after Joffrey's wedding feast, she is led by Ser Dontos down (presumably) this same path to Littlefinger. Her trip ends when she goes below into the ship Littlefinger has arranged for their passage to The Fingers. (Much later, Sansa will take Sweetrobin down the outside of an even steeper hill when they leave the Eyrie at the beginning of winter.) I'm tempted to say Littlefinger is 'leading them down the garden path'...however, there's no garden in sight; it's quite barren! Quote I think there is some subtle symbolism at play here, with whether the character travels inside the hill or on the outside of the hill making an important difference; does the character eventually go "underground," or does he stay on the surface or even end up going into a tower? Who is the guide in to or out of the underground place? I'm not sure as to the significance of travelling outside vs. inside a hill. We'll have to think further on that! Your point about the guide in question is an important consideration. For example, Lady Dustin of Barrowton (a major access point to the 'hollow hills' network) clad in her luxurious black sable coat, reminiscent of a burrowing predatory marten( pun on 'Martin'), being led into the crypts by Theon -- or rather perhaps more accurately leading Theon into the crypts -- is an important underground agent or underworld gatekeeper. She may even be involved in a little 'northern conspiracy'! Perhaps by opening up the crypts she's ensuring that the vengeful spirits conveniently missing swords (of which she seems to approve) may roam freely in the north. So, perhaps we ought to understand her adamance that Ned's bones should not be brought to rest in the crypt in this way. Quote A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell "House Ryswell too," said Roger Ryswell. "Even Dustins out of Barrowton." Lady Dustin parted her lips in a thin, feral smile. "The north remembers, Frey." Aenys Frey's mouth quivered with outrage. "Stark dishonored us. That is what you northmen had best remember." Quote If you include the brothel and the ship as "underground" destinations, the Littlefinger examples show that underground is not always a place to go for safety, although it might appear to be safe. Littlefinger uses the brothel visit as a chance to solidify the Stark suspicion of the Lannisters (as well as Varys) and to underscore Tyrion's supposed connection to the dagger. That's a valuable distinction -- underground as risky zone rather than safe space -- which ties into the idea I mentioned earlier regarding the transgressive nature of these chthonic descents. I like your inclusion of the hold of a ship as an underground destination. Not only does it point to the subaquatic realm, it also frequently contains 'buried treasure' of a kind, for example Euron's plundering of the spices and shade of the evening and discovery and subsequent slaughter of the warlocks hiding out there. If the north is symbolically 'underwater,' then Bloodraven's cavern can also be conceived of as a kind of submersible or submarine, and Greywater Watch as an elusive, floating castle is a kind of boat likely involved in subterfuge too! Quote Hmm. Thinking out loud here. Maybe I'm missing GRRM's point: Littlefinger's destinations are not literally underground, and maybe that's why Catelyn and Ned and Sansa are not safe when they enter his spaces. If I recall correctly, Jon slows his attempted flight from the NW as he passes Mole's Town, as if he is doubting the wisdom of his plan. He doesn't want to go "below" (i.e., south of) Mole's Town. And he is brought north again by his Night's Watch brothers who have been alerted by Sam Tarly and don't want to see Jon get in trouble. Later Jon will go into a tunnel with Ygritte and will enjoy having sex naked for the first time. So this might be reinforcement of the notion that it is safe to be underground - the lovers can shed their furs and fully reveal themselves to each other. They recall their cave and wish they had never left when Ygritte is dying. Ned, on the other hand, is thrown into a dungeon in the Red Keep. Not a safe place. Agreed, the dungeon is not safe for Ned. However, while down there he manages to curse a few people, with astoundingly effective repercussions to date, considering those whom he cursed have mostly died. It's almost as if the underground space served to concentrate his latent powers as we've been positing. As the reigning Lord of Winterfell at that point, and therefore the symbolic Lord of the Underworld or Otherworld, he would potentially derive his power by going underground. Significantly, it's while underground and deprived of light that Ned is finally able to see clearly. In the darkness, paradoxically he is able to recognize how he's been played and fallen victim to the 'shadows on the wall' of others such as the 'false gatekeepers,' as well as coming face to face with his own frailties. Finally, here, he is not taken in by Varys's disguises. Safety and insight may not be compatible -- representing GRRM's theme of the double-edged sword of knowledge! It's also implied that the depths of 'Aegon's' hill are a major underground space whose secrets may also be accessed by those who do not have 'the blood of the dragon.' As a ploy to consolidate their power, and reinforce the myth of themselves as 'the master race,' the Targaryens told a lot of lies, for example as to who may ride a dragon. I'm sure by the end of this tale, Bran for one will have disproved that assertion. 'Aegon's hill,' as @Wizz-The-Smith has mentioned, was originally the territory of the first men and old gods, its magical and political significance appropriated by the conquerors. They may have built their red colossus on top of the hill, but the magic residing beneath the hill is not theirs alone. The major boundary below which one ought not to venture is not Mole's Town, it's the Neck. Quote Catelyn, as Lady Stoneheart, joins the Brotherhood Without Banners who live in a Hollow Hill. She's a badass with nothing to lose and doesn't care whether it's a safe place. As people have noted earlier in this thread, the ancient Celts may have believed that there were different underworlds that could be entered at different points on the landscape. Ned in the dungeon at King's Landing is in a hellish underworld; Jon in a cave beyond the Wall is in a pleasant underworld. By the way, Mole's Town = Two Lemons. Also, Lost Women. Sorry, I couldn't resist. ha ha ha...'lost women' and 'semen cloaks,' courtesy of @Isobel Harper... 20 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: I 'fell' upon it. he he...you mean you fell into the rabbit hole! 20 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: much of this story will take place underground, the Riverland's is much the same. When the BWB travel through the RL's, they are sometimes encountered by seemingly empty villages, but a blast of a horn confirmed the smallfolk were okay to come out of their hiding holes, and suddenly many appear. The 'cave folk' alerted by the blast of the horn or the bells. By the way, what do you and @Seams (or anyone else) think of the symbolism of the Bran-rookery-belltower connection? I think it's code for something on a larger scale -- like the key to a map --which I can't figure out: Quote A Game of Thrones - Bran II When he got out from under it and scrambled up near the sky, Bran could see all of Winterfell in a glance. He liked the way it looked, spread out beneath him, only birds wheeling over his head while all the life of the castle went on below. Bran could perch for hours among the shapeless, rain-worn gargoyles that brooded over the First Keep, watching it all: the men drilling with wood and steel in the yard, the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden, restless dogs running back and forth in the kennels, the silence of the godswood, the girls gossiping beside the washing well. It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know. It taught him Winterfell's secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced. His mother was terrified that one day Bran would slip off a wall and kill himself. He told her that he wouldn't, but she never believed him. Once she made him promise that he would stay on the ground. He had managed to keep that promise for almost a fortnight, miserable every day, until one night he had gone out the window of his bedroom when his brothers were fast asleep. A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII Dawn stole into her garden like a thief. The grey of the sky grew lighter still, and the trees and shrubs turned a dark green beneath their stoles of snow. A few servants came out and watched her for a time, but she paid them no mind and they soon went back inside where it was warmer. Sansa saw Lady Lysa gazing down from her balcony, wrapped up in a blue velvet robe trimmed with fox fur, but when she looked again her aunt was gone. Maester Colemon popped out of the rookery and peered down for a while, skinny and shivering but curious. Her bridges kept falling down. There was a covered bridge between the armory and the main keep, and another that went from the fourth floor of the belltower to the second floor of the rookery, but no matter how carefully she shaped them, they would not hold together. The third time one collapsed on her, she cursed aloud and sat back in helpless frustration. A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII "Nothing could please me more." She raised the walls of the glass gardens while Littlefinger roofed them over, and when they were done with that he helped her extend the walls and build the guardshall. When she used sticks for the covered bridges, they stood, just as he had said they would. The First Keep was simple enough, an old round drum tower, but Sansa was stymied again when it came to putting the gargoyles around the top. Again he had the answer. "It's been snowing on your castle, my lady," he pointed out. "What do the gargoyles look like when they're covered with snow?" Sansa closed her eyes to see them in memory. "They're just white lumps." A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven." "I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it." A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day. It was the old days she hungered for. Prayed for. But who could she pray to? The garden had been meant for a godswood once, she knew, but the soil was too thin and stony for a weirwood to take root. A godswood without gods, as empty as me. She scooped up a handful of snow and squeezed it between her fingers. Heavy and wet, the snow packed easily. Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she'd slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt. When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 @ravenous reader regarding the idea of four stages, it's starting to sound similar to the cycle of the seasons and of the day / night, which George has drawn parallels between (as have many others). Sunrise = Spring, midday = Summer, sunset = Fall, night = Winter. I believe the three attempts to forge LB correlate to this - water tempering for the dew and coolness of morning, lion's heart tempering for the summer and midday bright sun, and Nissa Nissa to represent the sunset - the fall of the sun and the parallel turn of solar king AA towards darkness. The Long Night itself represents night and winter. I wrote a short essay on that once actually. In any case, the darkness / night part of the cycle represents death, but also regeneration. It's the darkness of the tomb and the womb both. Another analog is the blackness of the night sky, where the darkness in between the stars is represented by such death and rebirth goddesses as Kali, who embodies this concept of womb and tomb perfectly. From the infinite darkness of space comes star seed and the birthing of all matter. To associate the underworld / chthonic realms with darkness, winter, death, and regeneration makes a lot of sense. The concept of the night sun in world mythology is instructive. Sometimes the 'night sun' represents the dar sky where the sun usually is. Sometimes it represents the idea of the sun going underground at night - George references this in Jon's ghost dream where they mention the cave of night where the sun had gone. So when we see fiery or solar characters underground, like Beric for example, we are seeing a representation of the night sun, the sun in its nightly journey through the underworld. George also has his 'winter sun' sigil of the Karstarks, a white sunburst on black. I believe it was @Pain killer Jane who thinks that might be referring to a white dwarf star exploding, a super nova. It could also be viewed as a pale sun too weak to drive away the darkness, the night sun or undergournd sun (think of Bloodraven here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 On 10/23/2016 at 2:38 PM, ravenous reader said: Agreed, the dungeon is not safe for Ned. Hi everyone. I've been meaning to give this a read. I will go back to this. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this. But in line with the ship's hold swallowing the sun(solar barque), caves also being hiding places for the night's sun and descent into the underworld trips, we have The Tarbeck-Reyne rebellion. Where Reynard Reyne took everyone into the mines of Castamere (he thought everyone would be safe from Tywin's wroth) and then were drowned on orders of Tywin Lannister. (Can we acknowledge the irony of Tywin damming up a river just like his grandmother Lady Rohanne Webber? But unlike Rohanne, Tywin didn't have a Duncan the Tall to avert a ruinous war but we have Jaime Lannister closely associated with Brienne. Make of that what you will.) @ravenous reader It is a nice union of "power in the underground" and the literal "drowning for power" conversation that you started in the other thread. Because the drowning of the people in the mines imparted Tywin with power through fear. So much fear that all he would do was send a musician to play the The Rains of Castamere to rein in (pun completely intended there) rebellious lords. @LmL It also speaks to the idea of the underground sun/pale sun parallel as well. Reynard Reyne is a red lion and like you said a lion is a sun symbol and therefore should be considered a Red dwarf star (not a red giant or red super giant, Elyn Reyne-Tarbeck and her red sun/white blueish star symbols was definitely trying to become shining yellow sun, i.e. a Lannister). Which is also relatively cool in comparison with our own yellow sun. A red sun, a yellow sun, a white sun are all stars and therefore sparkle (in terms of fiery sparkling light) but with varying degrees of temperature. This also speaks to the solar barque in the underworld with the comment of the ships hull being like a cave. We have Beric undead fiery sun in an underground cavern, Bloodraven chained by roots in an underground cave and then we have Aeron, the drowned priest chained by the evil AA Euron in the darkness of the Silence's hull. By the way a large percentage of red dwarfs have planetary systems but are unable to sustain life (regardless of what the Superman comics say) and the interesting thing about planets orbiting a red dwarf are tidal locked and therefore would not rotate and perpetually having one side facing the sun and the other in complete darkness. If life would be sustained (through the magical miracle of life) on a planet such as that it would live according to some rather messed up seasons, time and depth perceptions? So aside from that up there, I would like to contribute something to this thread as well. Along with caves, seams, and hollow hills with can also connect islands to this as well. @ravenous reader you mentioned in your comment Greywater Watch as a floating island. I want to point everyone to the Isle of Faces at the center of the God's Eye, Old Wyck (Nagga's hill and the weirwood boat of the Grey King and the original location of the Seastone chair), Dragonstone (Stone Drumm), Driftmark (location of the Dirftwood Throne), Bloodstone (aside from the name, the seat of Prince Daemon Targaryen, who Euron parallels). There is also the Isle of Tears and the significant thing there (aside from tears) is the city of Gogossos. This name is similar to the name Golgathis better known in English as Calvary Hill. The place where Jesus was crucified. Gogossos was where the Valyrians carried out experiments but it was first and foremost a penal colony. (Shout out to history of Westeros for pointing this out in their Q&A from this weekend and thanks for the shout out you guys). So you would expect a lot of executions and crucifixions to take place there. "A lot of people bleeding there" @LmL. The etymology of the Hebrew word Golgathis means "the place where the skull is" and translated in Latin to Calvariæ Locus. Calvary is the derived from the word Calvariae. (Seems reminiscent of the cavalry of Apocalypse- i.e. the horsemen). Anyway we have Gogossos located on the Isle of Tears (shout out to Radio Westeros' delving into the bloody tears symbolism with their Lady Stoneheart podcast. and LmL's comets are bloody tears) which harkens back to the Golgathis Hill, where a savior/solar figure was killed by a spear and then we have Jon Snow who was sent to a penal colony that has a history of dark magic and experimentation and he was murdered. And oh look he dreams of scarecrow brothers i.e crucified brothers that fall down like fiery comets/bloody tears. Edit: If the theory is correct that House Hightower are descendants of GEOTDawnians, than that is why the Isle of Ravens was the strong hold of a pirate king and is located inside the Citadel. Therefore the Hightowers are scarecrows i.e. crucified symbols. Which goes back to Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil for knowledge. This also mirrors Ned as well. Ned was killed as a traitor by the machinations of tracherous false friends (Littlefinger and his parallels to Judas i.e. silver and coins) and was behead on Visenya's Hill. Which brings me back to the name meaning of "the place where the skull is". There is a tradition that locates Golgatha as the place where two dudes buried the skull of Adam after retrieving it from the resting place of Noah's Ark. Its also said to be the place where the snake in the grass' head was crushed during the fall of man. @ravenous reader this goes back to our discussion about Adam, Bran and blood watered earth. The Astapori proverb of 'Bricks and Blood', the mountains of Dorne rumored to get their red coloring from the amount of blood shed between the Reach and Dorne. (Which by the way is interesting if you think the sigil of House Drumm is a bony hand reaching over blood and then take into consideration that Aegon II is called 'grasping' or better yet over-reaching to become King and causing the Dance of Dragons and spilling a lot of blood. And my last island is Westeros. Edit: This goes back to my theory that GRRM is using the properties of the concept of Mana as conceived by Polynesian cultures. Which are Island/Volcano, sea-faring cultures. And the combination of cannibalism/drinking blood of enemies for power. Which we have a female Jhat drinking out of the golden skull of the Boy Too Bold by Half. (hmm....we do have a bold boy-Aegon VI- who is followed by the golden company who has the penchant of gilding the skull of their leaders...and then Dany who is closely associated with fire and Brave Dany Flint, the cross-dressing Night's Watchmen whose last name-Flint- is used to make fire. And Dany is acting like a Khal not a Khaleesi at the head of a khalsar, a cavalry. Doesn't bode well for poor Aegon VI.) So all the magic in ASOIAF is rooted in blood magic because blood is power and in a womb you will find blood. Edit: I want to also mention this is where the parallel between the Others and the Children of the Forest and real world mythology Sidhe comes. I forget who made the correlation between the Sidhe and the Others but thank you for that. As a side note, Sidhe is also spelled in Scottish Gaelic as Sith. A lot of people have noted George's love of Star Wars. The Jedi Temple on Coruscant has a force-sensitive tree at the center of it which was uprooted by Darth Sidious and the Jedi Temple was converted into the Imperial Palace. However what isn't widely known is that the Sith before the Galactic Republic made a shrine on the same spot and the Jedi built the Jedi Temple on top of that shrine. So if a tree was able to obtain force-sensitivity by growing in the same spot then you can safely say that there is a wellspring of force power in the underground shrine. Seems interesting when you consider the weirwood tree roots inside of the caves we have been exposed to and the association with power in those caves. Btw it also harkens back to corrupted/poisonous power/knowledge because we know that the darkside of the force corrupts a person physically, mentally and spiritually. Therefore while sidhe are burial mounds, those are spirits from those burial mounds are sith. And so we have caves that are associated with the underworld, that underworld has power and we find roots of weirwoods trees growing on top of those hills/mounds and sometimes surrounded by castles/palaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 On 10/23/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said: Agreed, the dungeon is not safe for Ned. However, while down there he manages to curse a few people, with astoundingly effective repercussions to date, considering those whom he cursed have mostly died. It's almost as if the underground space served to concentrate his latent powers as we've been positing. As the reigning Lord of Winterfell at that point, and therefore the symbolic Lord of the Underworld or Otherworld, he would potentially derive his power by going underground. Significantly, it's while underground and deprived of light that Ned is finally able to see clearly. In the darkness, paradoxically he is able to recognize how he's been played and fallen victim to the 'shadows on the wall' . . . The 'cave folk' alerted by the blast of the horn or the bells. By the way, what do you and @Seams (or anyone else) think of the symbolism of the Bran-rookery-belltower connection? I think it's code for something on a larger scale -- like the key to a map --which I can't figure out: Quote It taught him Winterfell's secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced. (AGoT, Bran II) Good point about Ned gaining in power when he goes underground. He does well outdoors - cleaning his sword in the gods wood - but there is a different kind of strength when he is in the crypt or some other underworld location. Maybe that's why Littlefinger was careful to lead him down the outside of the hill - he didn't want to be underground with Ned, where a Stark would have an advantage. Edit: I mean to say, too, that I had forgotten to write up for the puns thread the solar - Lords are always taking meetings in their solars - and Ser Loras. Is Ser Loras a little bit of Renly's light that has shined on? Will he be snuffed out by the wounds suffered in his assault on Storm's End? Ned has a solar when he comes to King's Landing, but does he use it effectively? My best guess about bells is the connection to the Battle of the Bells and, therefore, Baratheon victory. You read my long-buried essay about Patchface resembling a caricature of Robert, so there are the bells again. Of course, Khal Drogo gets a new bell for each person he kills. And we have the inn at the crossroads called the Bellringer Inn at one stage in its history. Maybe the connection between the Winterfell bell tower and the rookery, with Bran straddling the covered bridge, represents Bran waging war using ravens? He can't fulfill his dream of becoming a knight, but he can go to war through his surrogate "dark wings." It occurs to me, one of my tangents in trying to pin down details everywhere I perceive them was to speculate that iron rings might be symbols of the cycle of history coming back on itself. (And others reminded me that this obviously relates to the serpent or dragon biting its tail which had been discussed in depth long before I ever joined the forum.) But what if ringing bells are another kind of iron ring? Some rings can be seen and touched; other rings can only be heard. And this would mean that the person who rings the bells is a sort of smith figure, right? Not sure whether this makes sense yet. I'll thing about it and if I like it, I'll put a ring on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurus Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I think this post helps explain one of the least credible aspects of GRRM's work: Royal and Noble Houses that persist over millennia. I firmly believe that one of ASoIaF's primary purposes is to reject the tropes established by Tolkien (okay, hear me out people who hate what I just wrote). In Tolkien we see these ruling families persist over thousands of years, often with immortal or longer lived members. This is dissonant with real history though. Real history is turbulent, and houses come and go, even without the displacing effect of an industrial revolution. The oldest monarchy on Earth is that of Japan at around 1600 years old, and even there there were some awkward moments of dynastic shakeup. Considering GRRM's faithfulness to the tumult and danger of medieval life, it seems strange that the majority of houses with in Westeros have roots going back thousands of years. Like many readers, I initially associated greenseeing with some kind of Northern connection. The Starks seem magical early on in the story, and the Lannisters and the other houses just don't. This post, though, LML, and the heavy hinting in the "Children of Garth the Green" section in the World of Ice and Fire show that Greenseeing, the weirnet, and warging all have deep histories south of the neck, and are intimately linked with the most powerful families there. I think George is trying to make a statement about democracy. Part of what he is trying to say is that heritable magical aptitude would be corrosive to popular government. The gifted would always have more leverage in society, and mind-powers specifically would undermine the notions of freedom, privacy and autonomy that underlie a democratic state. How do you rebel against someone who can spy on you at any time (think Bloodraven) and dispirit your armies? How do you ever judge leaders you are predisposed to find attractive and good (think of the reaction that people around them have to Jamie and Cersei.) The message may be broader, though. If we accept magic as a metaphor for charisma, then George may be trying to say something about demagoguery. This applies most specifically to the episode of the Queens/Kingsmoot on Naga's hill and the new perspective this post has provided. Preston Jacobs suggested that the dragonhorn Euron's man blew was in fact a slave horn: a device to psychically enthrall humans, not dragons. The type of magic present at the sight: the type the Grey King himself used to enthrall his people; may have helped amplify the horn's effect. The participants at the Queens/Kingsmoot assume they voted for Euron, they are left with that memory, despite it not reflecting their true intentions. Two candidates came forward offering two different policies both within the four corners of reason. Then Euron came in, and spoke directly to the Ironborn's emotions. He used the "magic" of Naga's hill and his charisma to channel the frustration of a people, despite the fact that his plans clearly courted the end of all things. Wait, this reminds me of someone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 10/23/2016 at 5:55 PM, LmL said: @ravenous reader regarding the idea of four stages, it's starting to sound similar to the cycle of the seasons and of the day / night, which George has drawn parallels between (as have many others). Sunrise = Spring, midday = Summer, sunset = Fall, night = Winter. I believe the three attempts to forge LB correlate to this - water tempering for the dew and coolness of morning, lion's heart tempering for the summer and midday bright sun, and Nissa Nissa to represent the sunset - the fall of the sun and the parallel turn of solar king AA towards darkness. The Long Night itself represents night and winter. I wrote a short essay on that once actually. In any case, the darkness / night part of the cycle represents death, but also regeneration. [the seed germinates in the darkness] It's the darkness of the tomb and the womb both. Another analog is the blackness of the night sky, where the darkness in between the stars is represented by such death and rebirth goddesses as Kali, who embodies this concept of womb and tomb perfectly. From the infinite darkness of space comes star seed and the birthing of all matter. To associate the underworld / chthonic realms with darkness, winter, death, and regeneration makes a lot of sense. The concept of the night sun in world mythology is instructive. Sometimes the 'night sun' represents the dar sky where the sun usually is. Sometimes it represents the idea of the sun going underground at night - George references this in Jon's ghost dream where they mention the cave of night where the sun had gone. So when we see fiery or solar characters underground, like Beric for example, we are seeing a representation of the night sun, the sun in its nightly journey through the underworld. George also has his 'winter sun' sigil of the Karstarks, a white sunburst on black. I believe it was @Pain killer Jane who thinks that might be referring to a white dwarf star exploding, a super nova. It could also be viewed as a pale sun too weak to drive away the darkness, the night sun or underground sun (think of Bloodraven here). I really like how you've successfully interwoven several different symbolic threads into one here, particularly the idea of the four phases of alchemy corresponding to the four seasons and three forgings of Lightbringer, -- although that doesn't seem quite symmetrical... Perhaps we can anticipate a fourth forging of Lightbringer-- the third to fight the war and the fourth to forge the peace. Do you think the color co-ordination works as well, namely a symbolic progression from black, to white, to yellow to red/purple somehow? There is probably a pun on 'sun' with 'son' which I believe @evita mgfs first identified having religious connotations. Examples of sacrificed underground sons include: Bloodraven the errant Targaryen bastard son, Jon the 'secret Targ' son, Bran the son of Winterfell, and even Tyrion the dwarf son/sun and Jaime the conflicted son of (K)night and Day(ne)! So, the 'sun/son underground' is like Christ the son of God crucified on a tree, who rises at Easter -- i.e. in the Spring -- bringing the hope of the 'Dawn.' Both Bloodraven and Bran represent the sun/son drowned in a 'sunless sea'/sunless see... Quote A Dance with Dragons - Bran III The caves were timeless, vast, silent. They were home to more than three score living singers and the bones of thousands dead, and extended far below the hollow hill. "Men should not go wandering in this place," Leaf warned them. "The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years." A Dance with Dragons - Bran III Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air. As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit. Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull. Tyrion the dwarf son/sun burns the dwindling lamplight all night long while reading a book about the changing of the seasons: Quote A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning. [?morning] Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack. When the direwolf howled again, Tyrion shut the heavy leather-bound cover on the book he was reading, a hundred-year-old discourse on the changing of the seasons by a long-dead maester. He covered a yawn with the back of his hand. His reading lamp was flickering, its oil all but gone, as dawn light leaked through the high windows. He had been at it all night, but that was nothing new. Tyrion Lannister was not much a one for sleeping His legs were stiff and sore as he eased down off the bench. He massaged some life back into them and limped heavily to the table where the septon was snoring softly, his head pillowed on an open book in front of him. Tyrion glanced at the title. A life of the Grand Maester Aethelmure, no wonder. "Chayle," he said softly. The young man jerked up, blinking, confused, the crystal of his order swinging wildly on its silver chain. "I'm off to break my fast. See that you return the books to the shelves. Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry. Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen." Chayle gaped at him, still half-asleep. Patiently, Tyrion repeated his instructions, then clapped the septon on the shoulder and left him to his tasks. Outside, Tyrion swallowed a lungful of the cold morning air and began his laborious descent of the steep stone steps that corkscrewed around the exterior of the library tower. It was slow going; the steps were cut high and narrow, while his legs were short and twisted. The rising sun had not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell, but the men were already hard at it in the yard below. Sandor Clegane's rasping voice drifted up to him. "The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it." Again, Bran is the 'rising sun/son who has not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell...a long time dying'.. And Jaime is the Lion of Night and the Dawn... Quote A Feast for Crows - Jaime I None of the devout paid Jaime any mind. They made a circuit of the sept, worshiping at each of the seven altars to honor the seven aspects of the deity. To each god they made sacrifice, to each they sang a hymn. Sweet and solemn rose their voices. Jaime closed his eyes to listen, but opened them again when he began to sway. I am more weary than I knew. It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose. The Young Lion, not the Kingslayer. But that was long ago, and the boy was dead. A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead. When he heard the door open, he closed the White Book and stood to receive his Sworn Brothers. Ser Osmund Kettleblack was the first to arrive. He gave Jaime a grin, as if they were old brothers-in-arms. "Ser Jaime," he said, "had you looked like this t'other night, I'd have known you at once." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 24/10/2016 at 8:51 PM, Pain killer Jane said: So aside from that up there, I would like to contribute something to this thread as well. Along with caves, seams, and hollow hills with can also connect islands to this as well. @ravenous reader you mentioned in your comment Greywater Watch as a floating island. I want to point everyone to the Isle of Faces at the center of the God's Eye, Old Wyck (Nagga's hill and the weirwood boat of the Grey King and the original location of the Seastone chair), Dragonstone (Stone Drumm), Driftmark (location of the Dirftwood Throne), Bloodstone (aside from the name, the seat of Prince Daemon Targaryen, who Euron parallels). There is also the Isle of Tears and the significant thing there (aside from tears) is the city of Gogossos. This name is similar to the name Golgathis better known in English as Calvary Hill.............. Edit: If the theory is correct that House Hightower are descendants of GEOTDawnians, than that is why the Isle of Ravens was the strong hold of a pirate king and is located inside the Citadel. Therefore the Hightowers are scarecrows i.e. crucified symbols. Which goes back to Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil for knowledge. Edit: Seems interesting when you consider the weirwood tree roots inside of the caves we have been exposed to and the association with power in those caves. Btw it also harkens back to corrupted/poisonous power/knowledge because we know that the darkside of the force corrupts a person physically, mentally and spiritually. Therefore while sidhe are burial mounds, those are spirits from those burial mounds are sith. And so we have caves that are associated with the underworld, that underworld has power and we find roots of weirwoods trees growing on top of those hills/mounds and sometimes surrounded by castles/palaces. Hi Pain Killer Jane. We have mentioned the significance of the islands, so thank you for your list. If I may add a couple to your already solid offerings, there is House Farwynd of the Lonely Light, the island Lonely Light is days west of Great Wyk and the Farwynd's there are supposed skinchangers. The Skagosi are rumoured to still perform human sacrifice to weirwood trees and of course the cannibalism. Bear Island, and Alysane Mormont's rumour that all Mormont women are skinchangers. There are also islands on Red Lake, one of which Silverwing made her lair having turned to the wild. There are more I'm sure. Nice point about The Isle of Tears and Gorgossos, love the catch it may translate to Calvary hill from Golgathis. While thinking on the subject of possible islands myself I was wondering about those outside of Westeros, and another interesting option is Lorath. and its surrounding islands. Lorath and its islands were once inhabited by the mazemakers, and most of Lorassyon [second largest island] consists of an underground maze. And the old religion of Boash, the Blind God found in Lorathi history is very much like greenseeing and the Faceless Men. From the World book.... Their eunuch priests wore eyeless hoods in honour of their god; only in darkness, they believed, would their 'third eye open', allowing them to see the 'higher truths' of creation that lay concealed behind the world's illusions. [That sounds very greenseer like] An essential part of their doctrine was an extreme abnegation of self; only by freeing themselves of human vanity could men hope to become one with the godhood. Accordingly, the Boash'i put aside even their own names, and spoke of themselves as 'a man' or 'a woman' rather than say 'I' or 'me' or 'mine'. [Or no-one? This sounds very much like the Faceless Men and Lorath of course sparks memories of Jaqen] Anyway, back to Westeros' potentially magic islands and the Hightower's and Dayne's. Liking the scarecrow symbolism by the way. The Hightower is built on another island, Battle Isle, and as I've shown in my OP the early Hightower's used to live in the fused stone tunnels and cavern like vaults beneath the tower. And while we're yet to see House Dayne's seat, Starfall is also built on an island in the Red Mountains, giving us an island in the perfect location to find more caverns. I agree with the theory that the Hightowers/Dayne's possibly Grey King/Lannisters are GEOTDawnians or descended from, and all of them seem to have built their castles on hills/on top of caverns and on islands. And yes, you mention the weirwood roots we find in the caverns, that is one of the things I focus on in the OP and whether or not we can find some more 'weirwood thrones' in the caverns beneath all these castles. [I know you were mentioned by LML on page three of the thread and the OP is long ] The Sidhe link is cool. Not only are they burial mounds but in old Celtic beliefs the Tuatha De Dannan were also called the Sidhe, a Celtic fairy, basically a human with supernatural powers that can have really long lives living underground in their hollow hills. Sounds like a greenseer. And of course we have it from George himself that the Others are much like the Sidhe. I posted a little about that up thread, and I am looking into some of these tales at the moment, so hopefully that ends with an essay/some ideas of some sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 23/10/2016 at 10:38 PM, ravenous reader said: he he...you mean you fell into the rabbit hole! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: We have mentioned the significance of the islands, so thank you for your list. If I may add a couple to your already solid offerings, there is House Farwynd of the Lonely Light, the island Lonely Light is days west of Great Wyk and the Farwynd's there are supposed skinchangers. The Skagosi are rumoured to still perform human sacrifice to weirwood trees and of course the cannibalism. Bear Island, and Alysane Mormont's rumour that all Mormont women are skinchangers. There are also islands on Red Lake, one of which Silverwing made her lair having turned to the wild. There are more I'm sure. Those are awesome places. Braavos of the Hundred Isles is an excellent one as well and connects to Lorath via the Faceless Men parallel you pointed out as it is home to House of Black and White. The Summer Isles and Goldenheart bows and Talking trees.....I have long speculated that Goldenheart trees/Talking Trees are also variations of Weirwood trees or Weirwood trees are variations on those trees through the golden tree with silver leaves in the Garden of Gelenei in Braavos mentioned in an Arya chapter and combined with the Rowan Gold-Tree myth. -I like the existence of the Red Flower Vale on these islands because we have Sharra Arryn nicknamed 'The flower of the mountain' but was Queen of the Vale and mother to the boy-king and then parallel that to Sansa mothering Sweet Robin, the boy-lord of the Vale and Sansa is closely identified with red flowers i.e. Loras giving her a red rose, Cersei asking her if her red flower was still blooming and the connotations of red flowers symbolizing fire, blood, stars and everything else. 2 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Nice point about The Isle of Tears and Gorgossos, love the catch it may translate to Calvary hill from Golgathis. Thank you. The pronunciation of the name in the audio book jogged my brain to think about it. 3 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: And the old religion of Boash, the Blind God found in Lorathi history is very much like greenseeing and the Faceless Men I speculated that as well. I think that the Boash religion could be akin to the shadowbinders eating the blind fish in the Ash River and both of those could parallel Bran eating the weirwood paste and thus be third eye opening rituals. And I love that interpretation that the negation of self habit of the Lorathi is similar to the Faceless men being no one. 3 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Liking the scarecrow symbolism by the way. The Hightower is built on another island, Battle Isle, and as I've shown in my OP the early Hightower's used to live in the fused stone tunnels and cavern like vaults beneath the tower. I really need to go back and finish reading the OP. Sorry about that. But the Hightowers being scarecrows thus crucified people through their defeat of the pirate king on the Isle of Ravens is even more significant when you think that the Island is the only place where Ravens are trained to deliver messages and thus gives the measters enormous amounts of power through control of flow of information and even the nature of the information. And crucified people can be saviors but the majority of them were criminals and thus sinners. And I can stretch that interpretation and point at the Hightowers inciting the Dance of Dragons as being indicative of that criminality. more to follow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 5 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: the Tuatha De Dannan were also called the Sidhe, a Celtic fairy, basically a human with supernatural powers that can have really long lives living underground in their hollow hills. Sounds like a greenseer. And of course we have it from George himself that the Others are much like the Sidhe. I posted a little about that up thread, and I am looking into some of these tales at the moment, so hopefully that ends with an essay/some ideas of some sort I love this because Danu, the goddess is an earth goddess but it is also a Scythian word meaning river but she was also considered to be Water goddess and in the novels we have a people that are children of a river/water goddess; the Rhoynar. And the thousand ships always reminded me of the real life mythology of the daughters of Danaus who fled from the sons of Aegyptus (the mythological primogeniture of Egypt). And Dany is destined to parallel Nymeria, which Dany always reminded me of Danae, a descendant of Danaus and mother of Perseus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 On 10/25/2016 at 11:40 PM, ravenous reader said: There is probably a pun on 'sun' with 'son' which I believe evita mgfs first identified having religious connotations. Examples of sacrificed underground sons include: Bloodraven the errant Targaryen bastard son, Jon the 'secret Targ' son, Bran the son of Winterfell, and even Tyrion the dwarf son/sun and Jaime the conflicted son of (K)night and Day(ne)! So, the 'sun/son underground' is like Christ the son of God crucified on a tree, who rises at Easter -- i.e. in the Spring -- bringing the hope of the 'Dawn.' Both Bloodraven and Bran represent the sun/son drowned in a 'sunless sea'/sunless see... Tyrion the dwarf son/sun burns the dwindling lamplight all night long while reading a book about the changing of the seasons: Again, Bran is the 'rising sun/son who has not yet cleared the walls of Winterfell...a long time dying'.. And Jaime is the Lion of Night and the Dawn... This post is so on-target as I go back to read the references to solars, rooms which seem to be occupied by fathers and inherited by sons. So GRRM is using the solar / sun / son wordplay to explore the father and son relationship. I think this is relevant to the hollow hills discussion because the solar seems to be an opposite of the underground space and a space where light and fire are often present. Definition from Wikipedia: The solar was a room in many English and French medieval manor houses, great houses and castles, generally situated on an upper story, designed as the family's private living and sleeping quarters. A few daughters are visitors to solars, but Cersei and Lysa are the only women who seem to possess solars of their own, although there is a cleverly ambiguous Arya reference to a solar (see below). Solars are used for private meetings (although often spied upon, I'm sure) as well as taking meals with close family members. There are many references to fireplaces in solars - solars that need new fires, ones where fires are warm and burning without problem, and ones where fires have turned to ashes. Additionally, Jon uses the fire in Mormont's solar to defeat the wight that attacks Ghost and Mormont, and Maester Aemon requests a demonstration of Stannis's flaming sword while they interact in a solar. The first reference to a solar in the books is in Arya II of AGoT, when Arya, Sansa and Ned eat a meal in Ned's solar as Hand of the King in King's Landing. We learn later that Ned had a solar at Winterfell, but we never see him in it. The next ten solar mentions in a row refer to Ned's solar, interrupted by one mention of Lysa's solar at the Eyrie in a Catelyn POV. I'm pondering whether GRRM wants to establish that Ned is in charge of the "sun" and the power it represents at King's Landing by closely associating him with control of the solar in its earliest presence in the text. If so, it seems significant that Arya and Sansa are often in the solar, but that Littlefinger is admitted for some meetings with Ned. It seems likely that this is an Osiris / Set symbol, with Set insinuating himself into the solar for the purpose of stealing the sun. Other solars in order of appearance: Mormont at Castle Black Winterfell (Bran, but it is not described as "his" solar) Jon (in Mormont's solar and recalling his father's solar at WF) Hoster Tully (Catelyn visits as he is dying in his solar, which overlooks the confluence of rivers) Tyrion Stannis (telling Davos about hundreds of lords in their solars receiving his ravens) Balon (Theon pov) Cersei (Sansa pov) Theon (reference to Ned's solar at WF) Harrenhal (This is an interesting Arya pov where she is working as a servant, does not refer to the "lord" who occupies the solar but does muse to herself, "Is this my home now?" She also echoes the archetypal "nevermore" raven voice saying, "ever, ever, ever" and "forever, forever, forever" in the same paragraph. So we could be seeing foreshadowing of Arya in her solar in this scene.) Bolton (Arya pov. Does it negate the previous Arya/solar scene, that she now refers to "Roose Bolton's own solar"?) Tywin (Tyrion emerges from his convalescent cell and is informed that Tywin is in his solar, which Tyrion immediately realizes he has been displaced from the solar he had recently occupied as acting Hand of the King. I believe this is the only example of a father taking a solar from his son, instead of a father's solar passing to his son.) Tyrion (I list this separately because he makes a point of saying he has a new solar as a result of his marriage to Sansa) Jaime (visits Tywin's solar) Stannis - This is a "one off," and I think it is because LC Mormont is dead at this point, but Jon Snow has not yet been elected as his successor. An excerpt from the text could be useful in understanding why Stannis is not the kind of guy who really possesses or can hold a solar at this location: Quote Maester Aemon smiled. “Your Grace,” he said, “before we go, I wonder if you would do us the great honor of showing us this wondrous blade we have all heard so very much of.” “You want to see Lightbringer? A blind man?” “Sam shall be my eyes.” The king frowned. “Everyone else has seen the thing, why not a blind man?” His swordbelt and scabbard hung from a peg near the hearth. He took the belt down and drew the longsword out. Steel scraped against wood and leather, and radiance filled the solar; shimmering, shifting, a dance of gold and orange and red light, all the bright colors of fire. “Tell me, Samwell.” Maester Aemon touched his arm. “It glows,” said Sam, in a hushed voice. “As if it were on fire. There are no flames, but the steel is yellow and red and orange, all flashing and glimmering, like sunshine on water, but prettier. I wish you could see it, Maester.” “I see it now, Sam. A sword full of sunlight. So lovely to behold.” The old man bowed stiffly. “Your Grace. My lady. This was most kind of you.” When King Stannis sheathed the shining sword, the room seemed to grow very dark, despite the sunlight streaming through the window. “Very well, you’ve seen it. You may return to your duties now. And remember what I said. Your brothers will chose a Lord Commander tonight, or I shall make them wish they had.” Maester Aemon was lost in thought as Sam helped him down the narrow turnpike stair. But as they were crossing the yard, he said, “I felt no heat. Did you, Sam?” “Heat? From the sword?” He thought back. “The air around it was shimmering, the way it does above a hot brazier.” “Yet you felt no heat, did you? And the scabbard that held this sword, it is wood and leather, yes? I heard the sound when His Grace drew out the blade. Was the leather scorched, Sam? Did the wood seem burnt or blackened?” (ASoS, Samwell V) Aemon seems to understand that real fire with heat is a necessary quality of Lightbringer, so Stannis must therefore be a pretender and not the real prince that was promised. Interestingly, Bran's first mention of a solar used this line: "The Walders would break lances with the squires of Lord Manderly's escort, but Bran would have no part of it. He must play the prince in his father's solar." (ACoK, Bran II) I really thought Bran was Horus if Ned was Osiris, but maybe he has not yet taken on that symbolism at this point if he is just "playing" the prince. (Maybe we have to wait for Robb to die.) After the scene with Stannis and Maester Aemon, interestingly, the next reference to a solar is Jon in his own solar, no longer referring to "the Old Bear's" solar. Returning to the list: Lysa (now seen through Sansa's pov) Prince Doran Cersei (Jaime pov) Eyrie (Alayne no longer sees this as Lysa's solar) Riverrun (Jaime pov) - Edmure refers to "this was my father's solar." Stannis (Jon pov) Winterfell (Theon pov, The Prince of Winterfell) Blackwood (Jaime pov). This seems significant to me, since it's the first apparently "minor" character who has a solar. There is a symbolic Thorren/Aegon bending-of-the-knee moment that Jaime says can take place in private, in the solar, as a way of saving Lord Blackwood from humiliation. I know I haven't emphasized this with cited passages but, if I'm right about fathers passing power to sons with the passing of a solar, then it seem Jaime becomes something of an "heir" to Lord Blackwood here, and that could have major Bloodraven symbolism, I would think, as Bloodraven's mother was a Blackwood. Jon Connington (taking possession of Griffin's Roost again) Quentyn Martell (The Dragontamer pov) Kevan Lannister (epilogue) This was a longer list than I thought it would be. If this is too far off the hollow hills topic, I apologize. I will start a new thread if I find more to say about solars. To really understand the comparison/contrast between hollow hills and solars, I think we would have to examine food and fires associated with each kind of space. Possibly also weapons unsheathed in them and deaths that occur in them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 On 27/10/2016 at 1:22 AM, Pain killer Jane said: Those are awesome places. Braavos of the Hundred Isles is an excellent one as well and connects to Lorath via the Faceless Men parallel you pointed out as it is home to House of Black and White Thanks. Good point about the hundred isles of Braavos, the House of Black and White is indeed on an island, as is the temple of the Moonsingers among others. And also the HoBaW is built atop a hollow hill just as the First Men/greenseers built their castles, most likely in an attempt to harness the magic of the caverns. The magical Hall of Faces is on the third level below the temple, and is probably another one of these caverns. On 27/10/2016 at 1:22 AM, Pain killer Jane said: The Summer Isles and Goldenheart bows and Talking trees.....I have long speculated that Goldenheart trees/Talking Trees are also variations of Weirwood trees or Weirwood trees are variations on those trees through the golden tree with silver leaves in the Garden of Gelenei in Braavos mentioned in an Arya chapter and combined with the Rowan Gold-Tree myth. Nice. Add the black barked trees that the Shade of the Evening is made from as well. Dani had to drink that to fully appreciate the visions within the House of the Undying, again something akin to Bran's weirwood paste and opening the mind [or third eye] to further enlightenment. [Think Euron as well] And you've thrown the Summer Isles into the mix, good work. Here's a few more islands worthy of consideration....... Three Sisters: The people of Three Sisters are said to have webbed feet and hands and worship different gods. [Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies] And the early Sistermen used to practise human sacrifice by throwing dwarves into the sea as an offering to their gods. Isle of Toads: One of the Basilik Isles and home to the Toad Stone. The inhabitants are said to be the descendants of an ancient forgotten race and are described as having webbed hands and feet, much like the Sistermen. Misty Isle: Home to House Fisher, the ancient River Kings of whom we've already identified as possible greenseers. The exact location of Misty Isle is unknown as yet, although we know it's in the Riverland's. Shield Islands: Once known as the Misty Islands thousands of years ago, the early Kings of the Reach and Iron Isles would clash over these isles. Eventually re-named, one of them is called 'Green'shield, and another Oakenshield which sounds very much like the Throne the Kings of the Reach sat, the Oakenseat. Tarth: House Tarth claim descent from the dawn of days, and is another place with a legend attached. The ruins of Morne and the legendry perfect knight Ser Galladon of Morne with his seemingly magic sword, the Just Maid. Tarth is called 'The Sapphire Isle' and I have mentioned the history and legend around the sapphire in the OP. But it also fits here........ ‘The History and Legend of Sapphire’ website tells us that…In Greek mythology the sapphire was often worn during the consultation of oracles as it was reputed to tap into the powers of the ‘third eye’. Sapphires were also thought to have the ability to influence spirits and make clear those oracular sources that were most difficult to hear and understand. Interestingly, the sapphire was thought to aid in healing, and by the Middle Ages this healing power was ascribed especially for the eyes. [Think Symeon Star Eyes] Tapping into the powers of the third eye, and understanding what is difficult to comprehend [wind and rustling leaves] sounds very much like greenseeing. On 27/10/2016 at 1:22 AM, Pain killer Jane said: I speculated that as well. I think that the Boash religion could be akin to the shadowbinders eating the blind fish in the Ash River and both of those could parallel Bran eating the weirwood paste and thus be third eye opening rituals. I like it. It's interesting that a sect of religious dissidents left the Valyrian Freehold to build their Boash'i Temple in Lorath. This means that we can associate Valyria as well as Lorath with this 'Blind God' that seems akin to greenseeing. And being there is a continents distance between the two one wonders where else they took their preaching of this Blind God on their way north. While not so obvious as to mention the Third Eye link, I think Naath is interesting too...... Naath: The island of Naath is synonymous with its butterflies and a look into the mythical symbolism of the butterfly is interesting. Butterflies have thousands of individual lenses in each eye [Thousands of eyes in one ] yet they can see a single image and are able to perceive ultraviolet wavelengths of light which would apparently suggest clairvoyant abilities. Furthermore, the butterfly represents the process of transformation and shape shifting. I couldn't ignore the thousands of eyes in one, the clairvoyant abilities, and shape shifting references to the symbolism of the butterfly and therefore the island of Naath. Plus the islanders have golden eyes, much like some of the CotF and Direwolves do. I haven't done the research yet, but I like the idea that golden eyes signify some sort of magic ability, a telepathic ability is the best idea I have seen within the small amount of the fandom talking about this. Talking of golden eyes....... Leng: The Lovecraft laden Leng. The Lengii have large golden eyes which some say grant them superior vision over other races. Perhaps it's the size of their eyes, or maybe it's because they're golden in colour, or perhaps a mixture of the two? Whatever the facts of the matter, we have golden eyes associated with people able of superior sight. The Lengii are also said to have worked and lived alongside the Old Ones who lived in their subterranean cities on the island. And to bring this post full circle and link it to my OP, to find these massive underground labyrinths and caverns on Leng you must first gain access via the many ruins to be found within the jungles. It seems the Lengii did the same thing as the First Men Kings/greenseers of Westeros, and built their homes atop the cave systems and caverns, most likely in an attempt to harness the magic that lay in the darkness to be found below. Thanks PKJ, some cool ideas in your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted October 29, 2016 Author Share Posted October 29, 2016 On 27/10/2016 at 2:34 PM, Seams said: If this is too far off the hollow hills topic, I apologize. I will start a new thread if I find more to say about solars. To really understand the comparison/contrast between hollow hills and solars, I think we would have to examine food and fires associated with each kind of space. Possibly also weapons unsheathed in them and deaths that occur in them as well. Hi Seams. I enjoyed your tour of the solars, thank you, that was very interesting. Don't worry about the topic straying a little if you think there may be a link to the hollow hills. If a new thread is necessary then that's cool too, we could tag team on anything that seems relevant. And having posted about the various islands in consideration, I tip my cap to you having [to my knowledge] brought this up first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 20 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Nice. Add the black barked trees that the Shade of the Evening is made from as well. Dani had to drink that to fully appreciate the visions within the House of the Undying, again something akin to Bran's weirwood paste and opening the mind [or third eye] to further enlightenment. [Think Euron as well] And you've thrown the Summer Isles into the mix, good work. Awesome, I forgot to include them. Oh and also the Ironwoods that exist around which I am not sure is the same as the black barked trees yet. 21 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Three Sisters: The people of Three Sisters are said to have webbed feet and hands and worship different gods. [Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies] And the early Sistermen used to practise human sacrifice by throwing dwarves into the sea as an offering to their gods. If I remember correctly the Three Sisters also represent the fates.......I think that was on Sweetsunray's Valkyri/Arya thread. And there we go again with sacrificing for power. 21 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Isle of Toads: One of the Basilik Isles and home to the Toad Stone. The inhabitants are said to be the descendants of an ancient forgotten race and are described as having webbed hands and feet, much like the Sistermen. Misty Isle: Home to House Fisher, the ancient River Kings of whom we've already identified as possible greenseers. The exact location of Misty Isle is unknown as yet, although we know it's in the Riverland's. Shield Islands: Once known as the Misty Islands thousands of years ago, the early Kings of the Reach and Iron Isles would clash over these isles. Eventually re-named, one of them is called 'Green'shield, and another Oakenshield which sounds very much like the Throne the Kings of the Reach sat, the Oakenseat. These are awesome as well. The Isle of Toads is also the place where the pirates from Howling Mountain and Axe Isle were going to allow Nymeria and her Rhyonar to settle if they gave them thirty boys and girls each year. That seems very similar to the Labyrinth myth irl. Skull Island as well in relation to Gogossos, the place where the skull is located. I keep wondering which skull it was referring....... Misty Isle......House Fisher and thus would be the Fisher Kings and the Misty Isle would be Avalon......not terribly original. Shield islands: Oakenshield could also be in relation to Alyn Velaryon, the oaken fist and he fought Dalton Greyjoy ancestor of Euron, the current ruler of the shield islands. You know Euron appointing new lords to these islands could be significant. 21 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Tarth: House Tarth claim descent from the dawn of days, and is another place with a legend attached. The ruins of Morne and the legendry perfect knight Ser Galladon of Morne with his seemingly magic sword, the Just Maid. Tarth is called 'The Sapphire Isle' and I have mentioned the history and legend around the sapphire in the OP. But it also fits here........ ‘The History and Legend of Sapphire’ website tells us that…In Greek mythology the sapphire was often worn during the consultation of oracles as it was reputed to tap into the powers of the ‘third eye’. Sapphires were also thought to have the ability to influence spirits and make clear those oracular sources that were most difficult to hear and understand. Interestingly, the sapphire was thought to aid in healing, and by the Middle Ages this healing power was ascribed especially for the eyes. [Think Symeon Star Eyes] Tapping into the powers of the third eye, and understanding what is difficult to comprehend [wind and rustling leaves] sounds very much like greenseeing. You know in relation to this the Hebrew word sapphir "sapphire" is cited as the root word for the Sephirot which are the ten secret emanations imparted by the Infinite through Kabalah mysticism. This may seem crazy but if greenseeing is a secret art symbolized by putting sapphires in eye sockets which you identified and is the interpretation of Arya as the blind girl using her warging abilities to warg the cat and succeed in her training then this may have some relation. By the way, I mentioned that Asshai could be a spelling of the Kabalah spiritual world Assiah, described as the world of action and is described as "the seat of the dark and impure powers", sounds like Asshai to me. 22 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: On 10/26/2016 at 5:22 PM, Pain killer Jane said: I speculated that as well. I think that the Boash religion could be akin to the shadowbinders eating the blind fish in the Ash River and both of those could parallel Bran eating the weirwood paste and thus be third eye opening rituals. I like it. It's interesting that a sect of religious dissidents left the Valyrian Freehold to build their Boash'i Temple in Lorath. This means that we can associate Valyria as well as Lorath with this 'Blind God' that seems akin to greenseeing. And being there is a continents distance between the two one wonders where else they took their preaching of this Blind God on their way north. We can also add Blind Sybassion the eaters of eyes being able to see again after the dragons were born. We can parallel Sybassion to Symeon, the Weeper and this theme of eating for power (usually cannibalism). I have to wonder what kind of eyes Sybassion was actually eating. 22 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: While not so obvious as to mention the Third Eye link, I think Naath is interesting too...... Naath: The island of Naath is synonymous with its butterflies and a look into the mythical symbolism of the butterfly is interesting. Butterflies have thousands of individual lenses in each eye [Thousands of eyes in one ] yet they can see a single image and are able to perceive ultraviolet wavelengths of light which would apparently suggest clairvoyant abilities. Furthermore, the butterfly represents the process of transformation and shape shifting. I couldn't ignore the thousands of eyes in one, the clairvoyant abilities, and shape shifting references to the symbolism of the butterfly and therefore the island of Naath. Plus the islanders have golden eyes, much like some of the CotF and Direwolves do. I haven't done the research yet, but I like the idea that golden eyes signify some sort of magic ability, a telepathic ability is the best idea I have seen within the small amount of the fandom talking about this. Talking of golden eyes....... Nice!!!!!! I never realized the connection was through the eyes of the butterflies. I always thought it could be the Lord Harmony having a life aspect and a death aspect especially if we consider the black and white butterflies as looking like the doors of the House of Black and White. In humans the ability to see ultraviolet wavelengths is tetrachromacy. There is one confirmed case of this existing in humans and more people are being tested for it. Apparently it is another manifestation of the color blindness gene which is an X choromosome gene. And yes I agree with this ability to see ultraviolet wavelengths being linked with clairvoyant abilities because I am a huge fan of Terry Pratchett and his Discworld series and the first book in that series is "The Colour of Magic" which is described as being the 8th color of the rainbow which only those that are magically inclined can see what is really there. 22 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said: Leng: The Lovecraft laden Leng. The Lengii have large golden eyes which some say grant them superior vision over other races. Perhaps it's the size of their eyes, or maybe it's because they're golden in colour, or perhaps a mixture of the two? Whatever the facts of the matter, we have golden eyes associated with people able of superior sight. The Lengii are also said to have worked and lived alongside the Old Ones who lived in their subterranean cities on the island. And to bring this post full circle and link it to my OP, to find these massive underground labyrinths and caverns on Leng you must first gain access via the many ruins to be found within the jungles. It seems the Lengii did the same thing as the First Men Kings/greenseers of Westeros, and built their homes atop the cave systems and caverns, most likely in an attempt to harness the magic that lay in the darkness to be found below. And since the Tiger men of Leng are associated as well and cats in Egyptian mythology were considered to be guardians of the underworld, then I can agree that the Lengii were greenseers. And isn't there an urban myth that Cats are able to see the spirits of the dead? Or am I remembering that wrong. You know that the prologue the opening conversation in aGoT Quote "We should start back," Gared urged as the woods began to grow dark around them. "The wildlings are dead." "Do the dead frighten you?" Ser Waymar Royce asked with just the hint of a smile. Gared did not rise to the bait. He was an old man, past fifty, and he had seen the lordlings come and go. "Dead is dead," he said. "We have no business with the dead." And if the hollow hills are sidhe in the aspect of burial mounds then the magic that is being harnessed is necromancy. And per this conversation, the meaning is that the dead have no power but as we keep seeing, the dead do have power especially when wielded through the living....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 By the way, as per your OP, my mind keeps going back to Artys Arryn growing up in shadow of the Giant's Lance, him being conflated with the Winged Knight, a skin changer, and then his descendants building the Eyrie but weirwoods being unable to take root in the Gods wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 @Wizz-The-Smith We should also add Witch Isle. Ursula Upcliff was a famous sorceress that called herself the Bride of the Merling King. And not to mention that Ursula will always refer me back to the sea witch in Disney's The Little Mermaid and Poor Unfortunate Souls. And not to mention that the island was brought under Arryn control when Alester II (think Aleister Crowley) Arryn married Arwen (lotr- magic using half-elf princess) Upcliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 On 30/10/2016 at 6:48 PM, Pain killer Jane said: You know in relation to this the Hebrew word sapphir "sapphire" is cited as the root word for the Sephirot which are the ten secret emanations imparted by the Infinite through Kabalah mysticism. This may seem crazy but if greenseeing is a secret art symbolized by putting sapphires in eye sockets which you identified and is the interpretation of Arya as the blind girl using her warging abilities to warg the cat and succeed in her training then this may have some relation. By the way, I mentioned that Asshai could be a spelling of the Kabalah spiritual world Assiah, described as the world of action and is described as "the seat of the dark and impure powers", sounds like Asshai to me. Hey PKJ, sorry for the delayed reply. Cool info on the sapphire, and yes, I agree this could relate to others 'sight' like the Arya example. And since reading about the sapphire I've been thinking on Jon's description of Othor's eyes as a Wight, he says.....''Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.'' Potentially another link to greenseeing and the Others. I plan to look at the different uses of sapphire in the text at some point, but this one I think is particularly interesting. Love the Asshai/Assiah connection, I agree "the seat of the dark and impure powers", sounds like Asshai. Asshai is actually another place openly associated with magic that has caves nearby. And they sound likely to hold magic power of some sort.... In the caves that pockmark the cliffs, demons and dragons and worse make their lairs. The farther from the city one goes, the more hideous and twisted these creatures become … until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow’s heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. On 30/10/2016 at 6:48 PM, Pain killer Jane said: We can also add Blind Sybassion the eaters of eyes being able to see again after the dragons were born. We can parallel Sybassion to Symeon, the Weeper and this theme of eating for power (usually cannibalism). I have to wonder what kind of eyes Sybassion was actually eating. Nice! It was Xaro Xhoan Daxos who told Dani about that, I wonder if he was wearing any sapphires at the time? Probably not. On 30/10/2016 at 6:48 PM, Pain killer Jane said: Nice!!!!!! I never realized the connection was through the eyes of the butterflies. I always thought it could be the Lord Harmony having a life aspect and a death aspect especially if we consider the black and white butterflies as looking like the doors of the House of Black and White. In humans the ability to see ultraviolet wavelengths is tetrachromacy. There is one confirmed case of this existing in humans and more people are being tested for it. Apparently it is another manifestation of the color blindness gene which is an X choromosome gene. And yes I agree with this ability to see ultraviolet wavelengths being linked with clairvoyant abilities because I am a huge fan of Terry Pratchett and his Discworld series and the first book in that series is "The Colour of Magic" which is described as being the 8th color of the rainbow which only those that are magically inclined can see what is really there. Awesome! I'm loving your additions to some of my thoughts. And that's great that there is one confirmed case in humans of being able to see ultraviolet wavelengths. I'm actually colour blind, I did a test at school, they said I was colour blind, and it hasn't ever bothered me since. I have no funny stories, I just see different numbers/images to most when presented with the test. Maybe I'm clairvoya.... nah. It's also cool that Terry Pratchett has written about this, it does seem an interesting subject for a writer to get their teeth into. On 30/10/2016 at 6:48 PM, Pain killer Jane said: And if the hollow hills are sidhe in the aspect of burial mounds then the magic that is being harnessed is necromancy. And per this conversation, the meaning is that the dead have no power but as we keep seeing, the dead do have power especially when wielded through the living....... Indeed. 'Dead men sing no songs'. As you point out, George is playing with us as far back as the AGOT prologue. The burial mounds or barrows of the north are interesting as well, the Dustin's seat of Barrow Hall sits atop the 'Great Barrow' which is reputedly where the King of the First Men is buried. [Or perhaps a King of the Giants] Another interesting castle built atop a potentially important hill. On 30/10/2016 at 6:53 PM, Pain killer Jane said: By the way, as per your OP, my mind keeps going back to Artys Arryn growing up in shadow of the Giant's Lance, him being conflated with the Winged Knight, a skin changer, and then his descendants building the Eyrie but weirwoods being unable to take root in the Gods wood. Same here, I didn't include the Eyrie in my OP as it is not a First Man castle, but yes, Artys Arryn and the Winged Knight are very interesting characters. The Giant's Lance is an obvious candidate for caves/caverns as well, and we see this in the waycastle's defending the Eyrie.... Sky was no more than a crescent shaped-shaped wall of old un-mortared stone, enclosing a stony ledge and the yawning mouth of a cavern. Inside were storehouses and stables, a long natural hall.... The Andal history and their castles are fascinating as well, what did they think of all these greenseers and skinchangers when arriving in Westeros, and how did they defeat such powerful foes? Were they wary of such magic, or familiar with it? I want to look at that soon. On 02/11/2016 at 0:32 AM, Pain killer Jane said: We should also add Witch Isle. Ursula Upcliff was a famous sorceress that called herself the Bride of the Merling King. And not to mention that Ursula will always refer me back to the sea witch in Disney's The Little Mermaid and Poor Unfortunate Souls. And not to mention that the island was brought under Arryn control when Alester II (think Aleister Crowley) Arryn married Arwen (lotr- magic using half-elf princess) Upcliff. Good work, the list grows. I love the Alester/Arwen catch, if we're looking at magic associated sites then this links the Arryn's, an Andal house, directly to this sorcery. And of course the Eyrie has the weirwood throne and Moon Door etc... The first Andal king was called 'Hugor of the Hill' after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pain killer Jane Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 5:28 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said: Good work, the list grows. I love the Alester/Arwen catch, if we're looking at magic associated sites then this links the Arryn's, an Andal house, directly to this sorcery. And of course the Eyrie has the weirwood throne and Moon Door etc... The first Andal king was called 'Hugor of the Hill' after all. And the dwarf that was impersonating Hugor used to run around the bowels of Casterly Rock, lighting fires in those bowels. So I think the Andals were familiar with those powers. We have two Andal families that may be bird skinchangers; the Arryns through Artys Arryn and the Tyrells.....I know that last one seems weird but Luthor is specifically said by Olenna to have Quote managed to ride off a cliff whilst hawking. They say he was looking up at the sky and paying no mind to where his horse was taking him. Sansa I, aSoS and Varamyr says Quote Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue." Prologue, aDwD Seems far-fetched I know but it is nagging at me. But again with the Tyrells we can say this trait came in with Gardener women that married into the Tyrells because Garth had at least one daughter who could skin change birds so that could be that situation. But something tells me that Arryn prides itself on the purity of their Andal blood but......they are not nearly completely crazy as the Targaryens due to that. For me, Jon Arryn is like an English Bulldog that was just at the end of his genetic line. Anyway I will look forward to you delving into Andal Magic. On 11/3/2016 at 5:28 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said: Awesome! I'm loving your additions to some of my thoughts. And that's great that there is one confirmed case in humans of being able to see ultraviolet wavelengths. I'm actually colour blind, I did a test at school, they said I was colour blind, and it hasn't ever bothered me since. I have no funny stories, I just see different numbers/images to most when presented with the test. Maybe I'm clairvoya.... nah. It's also cool that Terry Pratchett has written about this, it does seem an interesting subject for a writer to get their teeth into Yeah Terry Pratchett is super great and I try to recommend him to others all the time. Just be prepared for a ton of English humor. One of my favorite characters is the anthropomorphic personification of Death. Read The Hogfather. And that is interesting. I am glad that it hasn't hindered you in any way. On 11/3/2016 at 5:28 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said: Nice! It was Xaro Xhoan Daxos who told Dani about that, I wonder if he was wearing any sapphires at the time? Probably not. I wish he was. But he does call the Warlock liars but then Jorah says that is the crow calling the raven black. A lying merchant calling lying warlocks liars......I feel like that is important somewhere. On 11/3/2016 at 5:28 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said: I plan to look at the different uses of sapphire in the text at some point, but this one I think is particularly interesting. I will look forward to that. On 11/3/2016 at 5:28 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said: Love the Asshai/Assiah connection, I agree "the seat of the dark and impure powers", sounds like Asshai. Asshai is actually another place openly associated with magic that has caves nearby. And they sound likely to hold magic power of some sort.... In the caves that pockmark the cliffs, demons and dragons and worse make their lairs. The farther from the city one goes, the more hideous and twisted these creatures become … until at last one stands before the doors of the Stygai, the corpse city at the Shadow’s heart, where even the shadowbinders fear to tread. Quite terrifying power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LmL Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 On 10/27/2016 at 6:34 AM, Seams said: The first reference to a solar in the books is in Arya II of AGoT, when Arya, Sansa and Ned eat a meal in Ned's solar as Hand of the King in King's Landing. We learn later that Ned had a solar at Winterfell, but we never see him in it. The next ten solar mentions in a row refer to Ned's solar, interrupted by one mention of Lysa's solar at the Eyrie in a Catelyn POV. I'm pondering whether GRRM wants to establish that Ned is in charge of the "sun" and the power it represents at King's Landing by closely associating him with control of the solar in its earliest presence in the text. If so, it seems significant that Arya and Sansa are often in the solar, but that Littlefinger is admitted for some meetings with Ned. It seems likely that this is an Osiris / Set symbol, with Set insinuating himself into the solar for the purpose of stealing the sun. Cool, I like this @Seams, obviously the solars have my attention as obvious fodder for mythical astronomy symbols. Ned is a moon character, and when he goes to King's Landing, where the solar king lives, that is akin to the moon wandering too close to the sun before it is killed by the sun. Robert the Cerrunos-like stag man is the solar king, and his 'son' (ha ha) is the one who kills Ned, fulfilling the stag antler-in-the-direwolf ting at the beginning of the book. Needs sword Ice is of course directly compared to the red comet by Arya, so what we have is a moon character wondering too close to the sun and cracking form the heat, so to speak. He was even fevered when he died, like so many moon maidens who die in childbirth. I actually had never realized that is what is happening with ned going to KL but it makes perfect sense - KL was not his place, as was said many times, and his wandering too close was the death of him. And in fact, right after he dies is the first time we see the red comet - Luwin sees it in the scene where the raven brings news of his death. Dragons are supposed to be born when the moon dies, and so we have the red comet appearing right after Ned's death. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.