Lordy Lordy Lordy

[estermonty python]

2 hours ago, fellow reader said:

I think lord/lady is used with two different meanings

1)social rank: all members of lordly houses are lords/ladies because of their high status in society---->Lord/Lady [NAME]

  but if they get knighted, they are called Ser(perhaps because that title belongs to themselves instead of just signifying their belonging to a lordly family), unless they are/become the ruling lord, then see below

2)marking him/her as ruler/owner of castles/lands--->([NAME],) Lord/Lady of [CASTLE/LANDS]

e.g.: Tyrion was called Lord Lannister as Tywin still lived, but only Tywin was the Lord of Casterly Rock

Cersei has the social rank of a queen, but with Tywin's death, Jaime in the Kingsguard and Tyrion a condemned king&kinslayer on the run, she is now also the Lady of Casterly Rock   

Sansa has always been Lady Sansa Stark since her birth(like Arya has always been Lady Arya Stark), but as all before her in the line of inheritance to Winterfell were officially dead, she became the Lady of Winterfell. After her disappearance(&alleged murder of King Joffrey), 'Arya Stark'(Jeyne Poole) became this.      

This is mostly correct, but a little overly simplistic.  Younger sons of the highest houses are given the "Lord" honorific (so Lannister, Stark, Tyrell, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon), with a small possibility that the honor could be extended to a handful of powerful but non-paramount houses (though I can't think of any examples); this is in line with the sons of Dukes or Marquesses being styled "Lord" in England.  For these sons, a knighthood supersedes the purely honorary title (which is why we only ever know Loras as Ser and not Lord, and why Jamie was a Ser and not a Lord even before his appointment to the Kingsguard).  I don't remember why, but this is how it is IRL.  

Those who are Lords based on their landholdings hold that title over a knighthood, so someone like Randyll Tarly, who was presumably knighted at some point, is styled as Lord Tarly. The "Lord" honorific does not extend to their younger sons or heirs, however (unless part of one of the most elite families); so, for instance, in the Riverlands, Edmure would be styled Lord even while Hoster was alive, but the sons of Walder Frey would not be.  

 

[bent branch]

5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I think it has to do with both whether they own lands and courtesy.

Stannis is Lord of Dragonstone and Renly is (kind of) Lord of Storm's End, but Varys is not lord of anything, but he is still referred to as Lord Varys because of his position in the Small Council. I can't remember if he said anything about in the books, but in the show he said that no one was obliged to call him 'lord', as he wasn't one.

Also, Duncan the Small was Aegon V's oldest son and was set to inherit the Iron Throne, but was disowned and still held the title of prince because he was part of the royal family, and Jenny of Oldstones was called Lady Jenny after she married Duncan, even though she had no lands and was the wife of a disowned prince.

Why do you say kind of? Is there something I missed? I thought he was the Lord of Storm's End.

[Trigger Warning]

1 hour ago, bent branch said:

Why do you say kind of? Is there something I missed? I thought he was the Lord of Storm's End.

He is, there's no kind of about it. 

In regards to the thread it may be that they're just courtesy titles. For example a member of the peerage of the UK that has more than one title may have their oldest son use a lesser title of the father and in turn have their son use an even lesser title of their grandfather. 

And I think here lies the issue with GRRM's world is that lord is a generic courtesy title for nobility whilst also being the only official title besides the princes of Dorne that we see, I don't think GRRM has thought about this enough for any real consistency, especially without different styles to help us differentiate. 

The Martells may style themselves princes as they are princes of the blood, despite Doran holding the hereditary title. I would think this is a courtesy title as well. Prince was often used as such as a dynastic style so that's probably it.  

It could be that the sons of lords could style themselves as lords as a courtesy but choose not to when they gain a knighthood as that isn't a courtesy title but a granted honorary title, especially in the chivalric South. 

Basically the sons/daughters of lords that hold a substantive title may also be referred to as such as a courtesy, but will be referred to as a different title should they be granted one. 

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

Made me think of this: 

 

So 'my Lord' is a term used when adressing the family member of a Lord, but that family member isn't called Lord <insert name> usually. The only exception I can think of is Varys, who is called Lord merely out of... is it respect? I wouldn't call it that, but it's something like it...

I think that in Dorne, like with royal families both in Westeros and in real life, all sons of princes are called 'prince' as well. So Oberyn is a prince. However, since Dorne is a Principality, its ruler is also called 'prince'. I think Doran is the only one ever referred to as 'the prince of Dorne' though, creating a distinction between 'a prince' and 'the prince'. Such a distinction is also seen in the Mountain Clans, on the Iron Islands, and beyond the wall as well. House Liddle's current ruler is called 'the Liddle', for example, Rodrik Harlaw is 'the Harlaw of Harlaw' (quite a mouthful) and Mance is called 'the Mance'.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

It actually made me think of this

 

[Jon Fossoway]

Lord Loras sounds awefully bad though...