Do you believe Preston Jacobs' explanation for dragon riding?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 minutes ago, WilliamDhalgren said:

Ah, I really add litte further science that PJ's theory isn't already invoking; PJ has a sex-linked recessive trait as the centerpiece of the theory, and considers how such a trait would manifest in males, and how in females.

I just note that in real life, it always fully manifests in males just like in females with 2 copies, as opposed to what PJ thinks, that it manifests in males like in females with 1 copy.

Yet that basically footnote to this construction is a step too far? Hasn't a writer writing about sex-linked genes and their dominance and their inheritance already invited readers to consider such science?

Rest is just me struggling to nevertheless construct PJ's result as close as I can. And its not too far away actually; just make your dragonhatching females have one and not two copies. Wouldn't a writer be able to construct the family tree correctly under that constraint too?

I'd submit that, if you'd go into this nerdy topic as an experienced SF writer in the first place, at the very least you could do it right.

I think instead of "doing it right" in your view, was outweighed by GRRM's desire to have a matriarchal power structure that stands in contrast to the patriarchal feudalism of Westeros. For instance, when Rhaenyra had 3 brown-haired children, it's pretty clear they were bastards from her affair. But characters don't question their parentage too much because they all ride dragons. We the reader think "well of course, they got the gene from their mother", but then we should also ask, can males actually pass the genes to their sons? Ironically, the answer appears to be no.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

12 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This isn't really an argument, but I wholeheartedly disagree. I give it a 99% chance of being a clue and a 1% chance of being a GRRM mistake. That's just my opinion. But if you want to take evidence from the text and say "that's not evidence, it's probably author error" I have no way argue against that, and I think it's kind of a silly assumption. Yes he has made little slip ups before, but nothing similar to this, in my opinion. And you said the lie serves zero purpose right after I gave you a potential purpose. But I guess just go ahead and ignore everything I say.

Unless you buy his explanation considering Jeyne Westerling's hips... There he made a (far more) major slip up.

[WilliamDhalgren]

I think instead of "doing it right" in your view, was outweighed by GRRM's desire to have a matriarchal power structure that stands in contrast to the patriarchal feudalism of Westeros. For instance, when Rhaenyra had 3 brown-haired children, it's pretty clear they were bastards from her affair. But characters don't question their parentage too much because they all ride dragons. We the reader think "well of course, they got the gene from their mother", but then we should also ask, can males actually pass the genes to their sons? Ironically, the answer appears to be no.

that's an interesting point, but I don't understand the example; males can't pass an X-linked gene to their sons regardless of whether dragonhatching females in the family have 1 or 2 copies of it, because males just can't pass an X-linked anything to their sons. EDIT: So this is true for a "correct" genetics as far as I understand it as it is for PJ's theory. /EDIT

Obv, males pass plenty of genes to their sons; just not the ones on the X chromosome.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

16 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Unless you buy his explanation considering Jeyne Westerling's hips... There he made a (far more) major slip up.

That's a really good point. I honestly think he lied about the hips. I do think it was her little sister. I think George got called out and didn't want to reveal stuff so he lied. I could be wrong.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

18 minutes ago, WilliamDhalgren said:

 

that's an interesting point, but I don't understand the example; males can't pass an X-linked gene to their sons regardless of whether dragonhatching females in the family have 1 or 2 copies of it, because males just can't pass an X-linked anything to their sons. EDIT: So this is true for a "correct" genetics as far as I understand it as it is for PJ's theory. /EDIT

Obv, males pass plenty of genes to their sons; just not the ones on the X chromosome.

 

My example wasn't really to address the science aspect, just to show that GRRM may be leaving us hints that a matriarchal genetic power structure exists. Another hint is the maiden vault. Why lock your sisters in a vault? It seems extreme. Unless you are trying to prevent them passing on their genes.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

1 minute ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

That's a really good point. I honestly think he lied about the hips. I do think it was her little sister. I think George got called out and didn't want to reveal stuff so he lied. I could be wrong.

I think so too. I guess we'll see in the Prologue when TWOW comes out...

[Gertrude]

Lord, I want the next book to come out so badly. We are spinning our wheels here in theory land and it's exhausting. (For the record, I don't think GRRM lied and the hips were just a slip up, like the horse's eye color)

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

I think so too. I guess we'll see in the Prologue when TWOW comes out...

Exactly! I would be less confident he lied if he didn't also tell us we would see Jeyne in the prologue. I subscribe to the theory that Jeyne was unwittingly taking moon tea from her mother but figured it out at the last minute and stopped taking it and got pregnant. So we should see her, her baby, and the Blackfish popping up. I wouldn't be surprised if the prologue is a Blackfish pov.

[Gertrude]

3 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 Another hint is the maiden vault. Why lock your sisters in a vault? It seems extreme. Unless you are trying to prevent them passing on their genes.

And Baelor wasn't an extreme zealot?

And I forget, why wouldn't Baelor want dragon genes to be passed on. And are they even aware of the specifics of the supposed Dragon X gene and how it works?

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

4 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Exactly! I would be less confident he lied if he didn't also tell us we would see Jeyne in the prologue. I subscribe to the theory that Jeyne was unwittingly taking moon tea from her mother but figured it out at the last minute and stopped taking it and got pregnant. So we should see her, her baby, and the Blackfish popping up. I wouldn't be surprised if the prologue is a Blackfish pov.

I hope it isn't the Blackfish though, unless he's stopped killing off Prologue characters.

I also hope he hasn't stopped killing off Prologue characters, unless it's the Blackfish.

[WalkinDude]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

 

[joluoto2]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So you are 100% sure he's wrong because you are 100% sure the Dragonseeds couldn't have gotten the gene from their mothers and you are 100% sure the Hightowers, who are hinted to have Valyrian features like the Daynes, also couldn't possibly have the gene. Your argument is weak, in my opinion.

But Preston is missing his own point by giving the "Hightowers are descendants of Valyrians" explanation because he need to fit Alicent in. But the Hightower name like any other House outside of Dorne pass patrilinearly. So Alicent could have gotten the "dragon x gene" from Ser Otto (or alternately her mother, but let's say ser Otto, because of the Hightower theory), but Otto must have gotten it from his mother, not his father. And there we have Preston in another self made trap. We need to know who Alicent's grandmother is to test the theory, we know her granfdfather is a Hightower, but if dragonriding goes down with the x chromosome that doesn't matter at all.

[Lord Lyman]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Like I mentioned above, we have Bran's pov from the last time Mors was in WF, and the pie was venison, not steak and kidney.

Bran also mentions being at the King's Feast in Winterfell, despite the fact that he never mentioned as being there in Jon's POV. Mistakes by the author can happen.

[Pain killer Jane]

 

On 10/12/2016 at 3:33 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

On 10/12/2016 at 3:18 PM, Dex drako said:

tryed to watch the videos but couldn't make it throught the first video for how wrong it is.....

it only takes a quick wiki dive to see the whole theory is wrong. I mean there have been males targs that have hatched dragon eggs so it can't be a female only thing. a bigger in world problem for this is Jon will ride a dragon but if you believe this theory there is zero chance of that because he could only get that gene from having a targ mother. but Preston Jacobs doesn't believe Jon to be Rhaegars son he believes Dany is which why this theory doesn't work.

this theory is design around that one flawed idea

a dany that is the mad kings daughter is the product of at least 4 generatoins of in breeding, she shares something like 75 to 80+ persent of her genes with her parents. there's nothing new in her make up to make her a speaicl egge hatcher but a Dany born of R+L she woulf have the warg x gene. but would mean no male stark would be a warg but to fix this he makes Cat family have the warg x gene too.......   the whole thing gives me a headache... it honestly could only work if you completely rewrite the story.

in the end I can tell you GRRM is not sitting there doing punnett squares or thinking about genetics when he comes up with characters. he writes a story that is interesting even his sci-fi have little to do with any real world genetics understanding so I don't see him doing that for a magic filled world.

Frankly, and I really don't mean to sound rude, but you have a lot of certainty and little evidence.

Males apparently hatching dragons can be explained by twin sisters or mothers hatching the eggs. there are a couple points in the theory that directly support this, e.g. eggs that are not around hatchers not hatching.

"Jon will ride a dragon" --- that sounds great, I can't wait to see it.

"the whole thing gives me a headache..." --- sorry to hear that

He is obviously thinking about genetics with at least one major character, Tyrion, who has 2 different colored eyes. And again, the entire main plot thread of AGOT, Joffrey's parentage, is fundamentally about genetics.

So I haven't viewed the videos nor finished reading this thread to see if anyone else suggested this but irl there are double XX chromosome male syndromes called Klinefelter syndrome and de la Chapelle syndrome. So a phemenon like this could explain male dragon riders. However, these syndromes are characterized with sterility unless magic........ 

[Lord Lyman]

1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

Lord, I want the next book to come out so badly. We are spinning our wheels here in theory land and it's exhausting. (For the record, I don't think GRRM lied and the hips were just a slip up, like the horse's eye color)

I thought the horse had a gender swap, and Renly's eyes mysteriously changed.

[Gertrude]

Probably that. I just know that there are documented minor discrepancies. I classify steak and kidney/venison in that category. Jeyne's hips are a larger one, but I still lean towards slip up there too.

[Pain killer Jane]

2 hours ago, WilliamDhalgren said:

 

that's an interesting point, but I don't understand the example; males can't pass an X-linked gene to their sons regardless of whether dragonhatching females in the family have 1 or 2 copies of it, because males just can't pass an X-linked anything to their sons. EDIT: So this is true for a "correct" genetics as far as I understand it as it is for PJ's theory. /EDIT

Obv, males pass plenty of genes to their sons; just not the ones on the X chromosome.

 

This is from the wiki on XX male syndrome which is possible in real life. 

 

Quote

XX male syndrome (also called de la Chapelle syndrome, for Albert de la Chapelle, who characterized it in 1972[) is a rare sex chromosomal disorder. Usually, it is caused by unequal crossing over between X and Y chromosomes during meiosis in the father, which results in the X chromosome containing the normally-male SRY gene. 

SRY by the way is the sex-determining region Y protein. In this scenerio, a male isn't XXY, he is XX but one of his X chromosomes contains the gene determining sex. 

 

Klienfelter syndrome is XXY and is

Quote

one of the most common chromosomal disorders, occurring in 1:500 to 1:1000 live male births

There is also the existence of XYY males as well. Single X females and XXX females. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

I hope it isn't the Blackfish though, unless he's stopped killing off Prologue characters.

I also hope he hasn't stopped killing off Prologue characters, unless it's the Blackfish.

Lol I completely agree

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

33 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Probably that. I just know that there are documented minor discrepancies. I classify steak and kidney/venison in that category. Jeyne's hips are a larger one, but I still lean towards slip up there too.

But it makes so much more sense to make a mistake with horse sex or eye color than with the pie. The horse and the eyes, from GRRM's point of view, are just part of the standard "time to describe the things the character can see in this scene" type of context. The pie is part of the dialogue. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that George wouldn't take 2 seconds to check his notes on the pie before writing a line of dialogue talking about the pie.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

45 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

 

So I haven't viewed the videos nor finished reading this thread to see if anyone else suggested this but irl there are double XX chromosome male syndromes called Klinefelter syndrome and de la Chapelle syndrome. So a phemenon like this could explain male dragon riders. However, these syndromes are characterized with sterility unless magic........ 

True, PJ mentions this toward the end of the last video. But like you said, because the conditions cause sterility, it doesn't change much