Do you believe Preston Jacobs' explanation for dragon riding?

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

4 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

I find PJ's way of trying to understand the text much more intriguing than the 99% of posts that revolve around "What would have happened if Ned stubbed his toe before...."  The guy is making an informed attempt to solve the alleged puzzles put before us.  Granted, I'll be the first to say I think most fans overestimate the level of hidden motives in this story, and Preston takes this to the extreme.  But his opinions are a lot more interesting than the complete nonsense some fans post about Mance being Rhaegar or Tyrion being a secret Targaryen.  Not a shred of evidence to support either of those (BUT TYRION HAS DIFFERENT COLORED EYES!  HE MUST BE A TARGARYEN), yet how many people waste time discussing those.

I agree with you on the first part, though others seem to like those threads (why else would there be so many?) and I think that's fine, why bother?

Which is why the latter part of your post annoyed me: "Not a shred of evidence to support...". I don't subscribe to these theories (I would dislike it if either turned out to be true), but there is evidence for both of them. Especially for Tyrion is a Targ there is plenty of evidence: his hair being more Targ-like in colour, his black eye possibly being purple, his dragon-dreams, Aerys having a crush on Joanna, Aerys and Tywin having a falling out, the timeline fits. Saying there is no evidence is a simple way out of discussing a theory, one that should not be used. Rather, try to refute the evidence (like Aerys envying and fearing Tywin causing the break between them) or bring up counter-arguments (like Tyrion being a lot like Tywin in personality). And if you don't want to discuss it, ignore it and let everyone else have fun exploring it, but don't just say "there is no evidence" if the theory doesn't suit you.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

17 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

I find PJ's way of trying to understand the text much more intriguing than the 99% of posts that revolve around "What would have happened if Ned stubbed his toe before...."  The guy is making an informed attempt to solve the alleged puzzles put before us.  Granted, I'll be the first to say I think most fans overestimate the level of hidden motives in this story, and Preston takes this to the extreme.  But his opinions are a lot more interesting than the complete nonsense some fans post about Mance being Rhaegar or Tyrion being a secret Targaryen.  Not a shred of evidence to support either of those (BUT TYRION HAS DIFFERENT COLORED EYES!  HE MUST BE A TARGARYEN), yet how many people waste time discussing those.

I actually somewhat agree with you,  I find him entertaining and amusing. 

But you have to remember that he's entertaining the same way a stage magician is entertaining. By all means enjoy the show, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that the magician's stage tricks are real.

 

[WalkinDude]

14 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

I agree with you on the first part, though others seem to like those threads (why else would there be so many?) and I think that's fine, why bother?

Which is why the latter part of your post annoyed me: "Not a shred of evidence to support...". I don't subscribe to these theories (I would dislike it if either turned out to be true), but there is evidence for both of them. Especially for Tyrion is a Targ there is plenty of evidence: his hair being more Targ-like in colour, his black eye possibly being purple, his dragon-dreams, Aerys having a crush on Joanna, Aerys and Tywin having a falling out, the timeline fits. Saying there is no evidence is a simple way out of discussing a theory, one that should not be used. Rather, try to refute the evidence (like Aerys envying and fearing Tywin causing the break between them) or bring up counter-arguments (like Tyrion being a lot like Tywin in personality). And if you don't want to discuss it, ignore it and let everyone else have fun exploring it, but don't just say "there is no evidence" if the theory doesn't suit you.

Fair enough.  I didn't do a very good job articulating what I meant.  It's a fantasy series.  Enjoy exploring it and thinking about it in any way that makes you happy.  I'm just acknowledging that PJ is "shunned" by the majority of posters.  I personally think it's due from jealousy as Preston is no more informed than a lot of the people here.  Just a lot more people listen to his ideas, and some resent that.  I personally appreciate what I consider his more intellectual review and consideration of the series compared to the fan fiction posts.  That's all I was trying to say.  We all have our crazy beliefs that may be at odds with the majority of others.  

To your points about Tyrion, I stand corrected.  I had never looked up at that Johanna was in King's Landing the year before Tyrion was born, so never understood how Aerys could have magically impregnated her in CR.  I still find it a hard pill to swallow as Aerys went out of his way to offend Tywin, so why not brag that he slept with Johanna to further shame him.  Though there are a million reasons why he may have hid that if it were true.  But your comment actually reinforced my original point, in that I appreciate a more scholarly approach (your very brief argument for Tyrion's paternity being a good example) to reviewing the text and precedent versus just pitching whatever random idea enters our head.

 

Apologies.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 10/26/2016 at 11:39 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

To me this would be as stupid as the midichlorians pseudo-science in the Phantom Menace. In a fantasy there are some things that should simply be explained by “because magic". Adding some half-baked scientific explanation is just bad story telling.

According to the theories of PJ, asoiaf is sci-fi, not fantasy.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

I actually somewhat agree with you,  I find him entertaining and amusing. 

But you have to remember that he's entertaining the same way a stage magician is entertaining. By all means enjoy the show, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that the magician's stage tricks are real.

 

That is a completely unjustified criticism of PJ. His videos are great mostly because he points out tons of connections that we otherwise miss. To say it's all bull shit implies you haven't actually watched many of his videos or given him a fair chance.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 10/26/2016 at 11:42 AM, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Honestly, if you think Preston Jacobs is right about "95%" of the time there is not much to discuss. 

I'd say he right about 5% of time.  

Ok, you don't have follow this thread then. Take comfort in the fact that you're right and I'm wrong, and ignore the crazy things I'm talking about. If PJ is only right 5% of the time, and you are 100% sure of that, then this thread is a waste of your time.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

7 hours ago, WalkinDude said:

Fair enough.  I didn't do a very good job articulating what I meant.  It's a fantasy series.  Enjoy exploring it and thinking about it in any way that makes you happy.  I'm just acknowledging that PJ is "shunned" by the majority of posters.  I personally think it's due from jealousy as Preston is no more informed than a lot of the people here.  Just a lot more people listen to his ideas, and some resent that.  I personally appreciate what I consider his more intellectual review and consideration of the series compared to the fan fiction posts.  That's all I was trying to say.  We all have our crazy beliefs that may be at odds with the majority of others.  

To your points about Tyrion, I stand corrected.  I had never looked up at that Johanna was in King's Landing the year before Tyrion was born, so never understood how Aerys could have magically impregnated her in CR.  I still find it a hard pill to swallow as Aerys went out of his way to offend Tywin, so why not brag that he slept with Johanna to further shame him.  Though there are a million reasons why he may have hid that if it were true.  But your comment actually reinforced my original point, in that I appreciate a more scholarly approach (your very brief argument for Tyrion's paternity being a good example) to reviewing the text and precedent versus just pitching whatever random idea enters our head.

 

Apologies.

In that case, I hope I wasn't too harsh. 

I also think a lot of people on this forum have an unfair resentment towards PJ and his theories. While I myself buy little of them, I find the way he presents them highly entertaining, and I do admire the way he finds and links the information he uses for his theories (for example, I never noticed the Braavosi ships popping up all over Westeros).

[WilliamDhalgren]

According to the theories of PJ, asoiaf is sci-fi, not fantasy.

Though I didn't end up agreeing with PJ much, his stressing of this idea is the proximate cause of why I started reading other Martin's works, and I'm rather grateful for that; Dying of the Light in particular is a masterpiece imho. Reminds me of LeGuin...

[myhalfgroat]

Preston's stuff is entertaining for sure. he puts the Great Northern Conspiracy together really well and his Dornish Master Plan is a great series of videos. having said that, I think he's mostly wrong. as others have pointed out, when you start to dissect his videos you notice that he throws in a lot of phrases like "we already know that..." for things that we absolutely DO NOT know. he infers certain information and then states it as fact to bind his theories together.

I love watching them though and the level of detail is really incredible. that's why I found this

19 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

But you have to remember that he's entertaining the same way a stage magician is entertaining. By all means enjoy the show, but don't fall into the trap of thinking that the magician's stage tricks are real.

to be right on point with my own personal opinion.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

16 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

According to the theories of PJ, asoiaf is sci-fi, not fantasy.

According to GRRM it's fantasy, I honestly don't think Preston Jacobs knows better, and I don't really think it's up for discussion. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

16 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

His videos are great mostly because he points out tons of connections that we otherwise miss.

I don't think people miss them, I think they're simply not there. To be honest, Preston Jacobs' stuff is little more than fan fiction as far as I'm concerned. I really don't understand why some people swallow it. 

[Jon Fossoway]

17 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

According to the theories of PJ, asoiaf is sci-fi, not fantasy.

If I remember correctly, he claims ASOIAF is sci-fi after linking several parts of the story to GRRM's older sci-fi books, an exercise which I find interesting. It's obviously not the first time a sci-fi -or fantasy- writer knits his works together putting a grand narrative on the back. George is a sci fi writer anyways. I have only read the Dying of the light and the parallels with ASOIAF jump to your face several times (and that was gurms first novel). I'm sure PJ read almost every book of his and found even more connections. For me, his 1000 world series is his strongest work and I haven't seen it replicated anywhere else.

--

As a side note, I recently finished reading some volumes with all the stories and novelettes by Lovecraft (another writer who does the mythos thing). In the worldbook (on the main saga too, but the worldbook is much more evident), the hovering influence of Lovecraft is more than a homage, and I hope someone can work this in a manner similar as PJ's 1000 worlds series. Deep Ones (even in the main saga, the ironborn, in a lovecraftian read, are connected to the Deep Ones), Old Ones, Leng, Kadath, Ulthos (Ulthar), etc.

[joluoto2]

No he's wrong. We have dragon riders without his dragon x cromosome. Alot of them actually. During the Dance we had the Dragonseed, bastards of male Targaryens (and Preston has never given an answer to this deapite being called out on it several times) as well as the children of Queen Alicent (Prestpn's explanation: The Hightowers must be Valyrian! pathetic).

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

19 minutes ago, joluoto2 said:

No he's wrong. We have dragon riders without his dragon x cromosome. Alot of them actually. During the Dance we had the Dragonseed, bastards of male Targaryens (and Preston has never given an answer to this deapite being called out on it several times) as well as the children of Queen Alicent (Prestpn's explanation: The Hightowers must be Valyrian! pathetic).

So you are 100% sure he's wrong because you are 100% sure the Dragonseeds couldn't have gotten the gene from their mothers and you are 100% sure the Hightowers, who are hinted to have Valyrian features like the Daynes, also couldn't possibly have the gene. Your argument is weak, in my opinion.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't think people miss them, I think they're simply not there. To be honest, Preston Jacobs' stuff is little more than fan fiction as far as I'm concerned. I really don't understand why some people swallow it. 

There are so many things PJ points out that I personally miss, let me list a couple off the top of my head:

The Braavosi ships keep popping up in Westeros, presumably to collect for the Iron Bank.

Mors Umber lied about the kind of pie he ate at the Harvest Festival when questioning Jeyne Poole. He asks "who is the cook in WF, and who is the smith in WF" claiming to know the cook because of the great steak and kidney pie and the smith because he was good at his work. But if he lied about the pie, then that's not why he knows those 2 names. He likely has Osha captive, as Osha was having sex with the cook and took one of Mikken's swords with her. This implies that Davos has succeeded in retrieving Osha and Rickon, and the Umber and Manderly are working together.

The chef at Sunspear couldn't have possibly had time to make the spun-sugar skulls dessert as a joke when the Lannister envoy came to Dorne with the skull of Gregor. It would potentially take days to make dozens of intricate spun-sugar skulls. The chef must have known ahead of time that a skull was coming. This is one of a million pieces of evidence that Qyburn is working with Doran, something that has a huge impact on the story and that I wouldn't have noticed.

Theon may have killed his own son.

There are seriously like a thousand more connections I could list. Saying they are "not there" is total bullshit

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

According to GRRM it's fantasy, I honestly don't think Preston Jacobs knows better, and I don't really think it's up for discussion. 

If you don't think it's up for discussion, then you are probably wasting your time in this thread.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, myhalfgroat said:

Preston's stuff is entertaining for sure. he puts the Great Northern Conspiracy together really well and his Dornish Master Plan is a great series of videos. having said that, I think he's mostly wrong. as others have pointed out, when you start to dissect his videos you notice that he throws in a lot of phrases like "we already know that..." for things that we absolutely DO NOT know. he infers certain information and then states it as fact to bind his theories together.

I love watching them though and the level of detail is really incredible. that's why I found this

to be right on point with my own personal opinion.

I'll grant you he does that sometimes. I think it is mostly in an effort to be concise. But I personally think he is mostly right about stuff, when you really dissect the theories. Like, for instance, what do you think he got wrong about the Dornish Master plan specifically? Because it seems to me that he got it mostly correct. The Brave Companions and Qyburn and Marwyn are working with Doran and Oberyn? Check. Doran cleverly forced Cersei to have to use a zombie in a trial by combat? Check. Doran manipulated his own children into doing what he needs them to do? Check.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I also want to mention, on the topic of Tyrion, it is possible he has 3 dragon-X genes. We know Tyrion is literally 2 people fused together in the womb because of his eyes. That's how it works in real life. Hypothetically, if Tyrion is a combination of Tywin's son and the Mad King's daughter, and if Rohanne Webber had a dragon-X gene (or equivalent warg-X gene whatever you want to call it), then Tyrion could have potentially taken one dragon-X from the Mad King and two from his mother, and a normal Y chromosome from Tywin. This could mean Tyrion has special powers that no one else has.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

18 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

If you don't think it's up for discussion, then you are probably wasting your time in this thread.

Sorry, didn't realise the title of the OP was “ASOIAF is actually sci-fi. Discuss.

All that stuff actually proves my point. There are a myriad of reasons why Mors, a bannerman of the Starks, would know the staff of Winterfell, he’s probably been there multiple times. Probably eaten many kinds of pie there too. But PJ decides that this is proof that he’s lying, therefore he must hold Osha captive…etc. Leap after leap to get where he wants to go.

The meal the cook in Dorne made would take some time…therefore he must have been informed by Qyburn. Huge leaps there. Doran will have his own informers, may have been told in advance by Cersei or Tywin that the skull was on it’s way… Again, assumptions and conjecture.

He does what many people do, which is to decide what he thinks is happening or should happening, and then search for things that can in some way be used to confirm it. Like I said, it’s not unusual for people to do that, but it can be frustrating when people cite such things as “proof” that no-one else noticed. The reason others didn’t notice is because it’s not proof at all.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

31 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So you are 100% sure he's wrong because you are 100% sure the Dragonseeds couldn't have gotten the gene from their mothers and you are 100% sure the Hightowers, who are hinted to have Valyrian features like the Daynes, also couldn't possibly have the gene. Your argument is weak, in my opinion.

Let me recapitulate.

Let's invent, with no proof, "dragonseeds" inheriting the (similarly invented) "dragon-riding gene" from their mothers, even though the "dragonseed" was just an euphemism for a male Targ screwing a common woman as a variant of "law of the first night".

Furthermore, let's take "Lynesse Hightower is a pretty blonde" and extrapolate that into "the Hightowers have Valyrian features".

I'm afraid that it's Preston, and by extension you as his disciple, who present a weak argument.