Bolton rebellion against Stark's and related stuff.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I can't find the Bran-quote this quickly, but I did find the quote by Lord Borrell. Interesting. He's being rather precise, but he would differ 400 years with the account given by the Manderly's themselves. 

As well, the Manderly-quote, Yandel-quote, and Borrell-quote all refer to the moment the Manderly's came north, not the moment White Harbor was build. So if the Bran-quote refers to the rise of the city (again, I couldn't find it this quickly, so I'm not entirely sure about the exact phrasing), the others alone given enough discrepancy on the arrival date of the Manderly's.

 

Edit:

How do you feel about the proposed solution for the wiki?

 

I like it. It will immediately correct some major discrepancies on the current Wiki page, which has the likes of Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner living shortly after Brandon the Builder, which is very misleading. Then, once the obvious ones are corrected, maybe we can isolate some of the remaining unknowns by the best clues available - which will mostly be based on crypt placings.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

Seven hells, this is really starting to mess with the pre c.700BC part of the timeline I'm working on

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

First, the Red Kings knelt to the Starks just as the "first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships". That means, before the Andals conquered the Vale. So, since the Arryns were already long established rulers of the Vale by the time of the Rape of the Three Sisters, clearly this event happened many centuries after the Boltons first knelt to the Starks.

Does it mean the very first Andals to invade Westeros at all though? I'm not so sure. As has been previously discussed in this thread (& elsewhere) it took the Andals a couple of generations from their first landings (I think roughly 2200BC) to conquer the Vale under Artys Arryn, forming the Arryn dynasty over the Vale. Elsewhere:

• It also took at least 2 generations (from Erich VII to Qarlton II) for the Andals to start invading the Stormlands after they first do the Vale, & the at least is if say it took a generation or so after the first landings in the Vale for the threat to be great enough that Erich should've taken more note. At the very minimum, the Storm Kings were fighting against Andals for 5 generations (Qarlton I to Cleoden I) & took 8 generations to assimilate fully with them (Qarlton I to Ormund III).
• The Andals seemingly started invading the Riverlands some time after Artys won the Battle of Seven Stars against Robar & by the time his grandson, Roland I, was a young boy to be fostered with an Andal king in the Riverlands. It then took some 4 generations for House Mudd to finally fall as the last (at the very significant) First Men Kingdom of the Trident. Side-note: Imagine if Tristifer IV ruled when the Andals were only beginning to invade ... It's possible he may have been successful where Robar wasn't.
• IIRC, we can only say with certainty that the Andals had begun invading Dorne by the time of Cleoden I Durrandon, but nothing about how long it took.
• The Westerlands may have begun being attacked before the fall of Tristifer IV, but I'm more inclined to believe it only really started to en masse afterwards there. So let's assume Tybolt Thunderbolt was around the time of Tristifer IV's death (or V's), but whatever the case, there was at least one generation before assimilation started & at least 2-3 before it finished in full.
• Assuming Theon was the Stark King for the Rape (c.1700BC), then Argos was repelled (c.1720BC). I think this fits in well with the Andals only looking this far north (the Weeping Water - not even the White Knife, though they may have been unsuccessful earlier here, mayhaps hence the more northerly attempt - but only within the same generation) after the Vale, Riverlands, likely Stormlands & Dorne & Westerlands had already fallen; not before with such better (& closer) pickings a/v.
• I think the Reach was only invaded after the Scouring of Lorath (c.1540BC - 1436BC or 1422BC modern Lorath was first settled & founded, +100 years after the isles had been uninhabited since the Scouring) because there was obviously a mass Andal migration to Westeros in the aftermath of - sometime by c.1500BC I'm guessing. As we know with the Rape timing, it couldn't have been the already (if not long) united Vale, Stormlands or Westerlands kingdoms, & likely not even the more divided Riverlands or Dornish ones. The Iron Islands were later, far smaller than what the Scouring migration likely was, far more likely undertaken by already Westeros-assimilated Andals &/or "blooded by necessity"(pirates, sellswords, etc) Essosi Andals. So the un-Andalised Reach is the logical migration point for the post-Scouring exiles. Also it works with the Starry Sept only being the seat of the High Septon of the Faith (in all of Westeros) since c.1000BC - even though it had been built by Lord Triston Hightower only the generation before the first was built in Oldtown by his father & 3 before his great-grandfather had been among the first Reachmen to marry an Andal (princess) - it's fair to say it would take a few centuries for the Starry Sept to actually be recognised officially by the other kingdoms as the centre of the Faith for all of them (however the hell that was achieved - one weakness of GRRM's worldbuilding). Anyway, it took at least 6 generations (Gwayne IV to Gwayne V) for the (Scouring) Andals to fully assimilate into the Reach.

The point of all this, like I said in my previous post, is that there was many different waves of the Andal invasions/migrations over the ~1k it took from the 1st Vale landings to the fall of House Greyiron - one (Vale, Stormlands, Riverlands, Dorne, Westerlands), two (Reach), & three (Iron Islands) at the highest end of combining them. I 100% think Theon was a "Raper", so either these "first Andals" were the first ones to come to the North or the Red Kings had bent the knee already but seceded (at least once) sometime before Rogar. Definitely the former imo, possibly the latter too in conjunction.

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Secondly, and corroborating the above, the text says Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den before the Andals came. Again, proving that it was built before Theon's time, not after it, since Theon was fighting Andal warlords in his time.

I'll start this by saying I messed up with the Greystark timing (even after you had posted the quote in your very first post on pg 1, IIRC) due to misreading that the Flints, etc all only came after their fall. So this of course does make Jon being Theon's son less likely & admittedly, my headcanon (of such) was blurring my judgement on such. Still, it could still be possible within the ~1k years of the Worthless War (still assuming Theon did the Rape & Jon was his son). Though I'm definitely leaning far more to Jon being before Theon, particularly considering the order of kings quotes from AGoT & ACoK (I could've sworn that Theon's in ADwD - "my namesake" - were more detailed like Bran's - & backing up the Jon after Theon argument - but I was mistaken). Thanks for the info. Nevertheless, there does remain the possibility that Jon raised the Wolf's Den after the Andals first started landing in the Vale:

Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf's Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea (some scholars suggest these were early Andal incursions, whilst others argue they were the forebears of the men of Ib, or even slavers out of Valyria and Volantis). (The World of Ice & Fire, The Kings of Winter)

If this is your only source for the timing of the Wolf's Den being built before any Andal invasion, then I don't think it can be taken as concrete because Yandel mentions the (at least) possibility that it was specifically to guard against Andals. If that is actually the case, then Jon presumably must have only done so after the Andals' first landings on the Fingers (not every king need be as heedless as Erich VII Durrandon - though I do wonder if his self-styled "the Conqueror" grandson was actually the one to call Erich "Unready" after his own defeat by Togarion Bar Emmon, but that's besides the point - particularly as the mouth of the White Knife was closer than even the northern reaches of the Kingdom of the Storm at that time). Just to skip ahead a bit:

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

4000 years ago - Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den

I have difficulty believing it was so long ago tbh, particularly if Volantenes &/or Valyrians had already raided the area prior. Even with (often rather-very inflated for those so long) in-universe timelines only putting the rise of the Valyrian Freehold at c.4700BC, I think it was likely rather later than this. Though all we know is Volantis was only founded after Valyria destroyed Old Ghis & that the Valyrians rose by say c.1800BC (though I think it's safe to say at least 2000BC) as they went "fuck this shit" with Zamettar c.1700BC. A (rough) date for the founding of the Valyrian Freehold is going to be one of the biggest bitches for the timeline, but I'm feeling it was only between c.4000BC & c.3000BC (mayhaps even later) ...

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Thirdly, Ser Bartimus's chronology makes it quite clear that many centuries passed between Jon Stark's building of the Wolf's Den, and the start of the War Across the Water. A host of Houses held the Wolf's Den in this intervening period.

Specific quote please.

As I said earlier in this, I'm almost turned from Jon being after Theon (so now thinking he was before too), but the timeline (if not perhaps what we know - vague as it is - about the order of Stark kings) could still be possible. And if you're meaning "many centuries" as +1k years, like with your 4k (though to a lesser extent of course), I'm not so sure about that. Actually, why are you saying c.3700BC for Jon & the WD?

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Fourthly, the Boltons were the last kings to kneel to the Starks. And yet, the Marsh Kings only knelt to Jon Stark's son. Meaning they knelt AFTER the Wolf's Den was built. Which in turn means that the Boltons only knelt AFTER Jon Stark's son's time.

True. Though are we certain that the Neck (domains of the Marsh King) were even considered part of the North (at least the idea of the geographical area that the Starks wanted to control as kings) before Rickard & Jon. Whilst it likely was, unless we have clear evidence it was, I don't think the possibility can be ruled out. Perhaps I was too influenced for my headcanon for it (& perhaps still am in thinking it still possible, however unlikely), but still. As has been said by myself (& I think others in this thread too), Rogar may not have been the last Bolton to bend the knee (before the Rape anyway) with House Bolton perhaps seceding away from Winterfell at least once before, as we see them later (c.700BC, Roose, perhaps more) do.

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Fifthly, Argos Sevenstar is mentioned as the "greatest" Andal threat to the North. Not the only one, or the first one. Just the greatest one. So there would have been Andal invaders in the North before Argos, and Andal invaders after him. Just none that matched his strength ... So, every bit of evidence in the published books combines to create a chronology roughly as follows

Not to be snarky, but I don't think you (or anyone) should be absolute when the evidence isn't there for such (if I have done such myself well then that was a mistake & I apologise for such). There's nothing in that passage that explicitly (or even strongly) suggests that other Andals had come before Argos. In fact I think Argos was the first (on top of the timings & reasoning I did above about the Vale, Stormlands, Riverlands, Dorne & Westerlands seemingly being invaded first) & the "greatest" - Theon Stark's campaign of terror in Andalos showed them that the North isn't to be fucked with (plus whether Rogar bent the knee to Theon or not, the Starks had already unified the North under their kingdom at/by the time of Argos). Daemon I's rebellon was the 1st & "greatest" BfR, after that they generally weakened gradually. Memory of the Hungry Wolf's campaign in Andalos perhaps even influenced post-Scouring Essosi Andals to look to the Reach instead of the North.

19 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

2500 years ago  - The Andal migration starts, the Greystark rebellion is crushed and Rogar Bolton kneels to Winterfell

Anything specifically as to why you think Rogar was with the Greystarks?

16 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Rodrik (won Bear Island)

And @Rhaenys_Targaryen ... Why does the Kings in the North/Kings of Winter page have Rodrik as the son of Rickard & so grandson of Jon? Because such familial connections aren't on his own page or House Stark's. Is it because someone assumed it given the first quote of this? Sigh, I thought I was really getting somewhere with actually (roughly) pinpointing when some of the Ironborn kings were (e.g. I had Loron invading Bear Island c.1666BC with Rodrik "wrestling" it back c.1655BC).

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

If we consider that Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den centuries before the Andal invasion started, and that Theon Stark lived after the Vale had already been ruled by the Andal Arryns for centuries, then it is clear that more than a thousand years seperate Jon Stark and Theon Stark.

Again, I think this is only an assumption you're stating as absolute (from, however likely, assumptions themselves). Sure, Theon seemingly ruled some ~500 years after the Andals first began landing in the Vale, but that doesn't mean (unless you provided that specific explicit quote I asked for earlier - & if so, my bad) it was at least as much for Jon beforehand.

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Maybe there were more Theons. Some even named the Hungry Wolf too, for all we know.

I personally don't like this possibility, but it admittedly is one, particularly with how much of a mess the Ironborn timeline (connected to Theon through Harrag & Ravos) - even if we assume that the Hoares had consolidated their hereditary rule before c.1740BC. Which in itself goes against Harrag being a king chosen by kingsmoot & although far closer to the conquest; I flat out think the c.4700BC = end of House Greyiron date is untrue & have trouble believing that the Hoares ruled near enough continuously for anything more than say 1500 years.

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Another point that proves the recent placing of Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner, is that Manderly says the North hadn't had a fleet since Brandon the Burner burned his father's ships. Well, we know Theon had a fleet. He built it himself, and it was a large one, given that he invaded Andalos, the Three Sisters and the Fingers with it. So Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner had to have lived after him ... Brandon the Shipwright - circa 600 years ago

100% agreed. Particularly as c.300BC was likely the time of the Harmunds or the century or two afterwards when the Ironborn basically weren't a threat. I don't care how much grief Brandon the Burner felt, you don't burn your fucking western fleet if the Ironborn are a threat (if not outright raiding/conquering your coastlines & rivers) & neither would the ships' captains, crews & the Sunset Sea Houses sit for it. Unless the Starks have been manipulating the stories of their history to even a much greater degree than we thought & say one or both of those Brandons just got rekt with their fleet by the Ironborn (Blazewater Bay? Though that's almost certainly just because Sunset Sea, & even if referring to some Ironborn victory too, quite unlikely it would be either or both of those Brandons just factoring in the length of the timeline), this is the logical conclusion.

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In fact, if Theon indeed conducted the Rape of the Three Sisters 2000 years ago, and if the War Across the Water indeed continued for 1000 years after that, then the North must have had a fleet throughout this war.

Certainly at least for parts of it. They would still need to make new ships to replace old/missing/destroyed ones & I'd be a bit surprised if at least one Stark fleet wasn't effectively obliterated at least once during the WatW.

14 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Well, we know roughly when the Andal Invasion was occuring. Urron Redhand lived "five thousand years ago", placing the establishment of is rule circa 4700 BC. His line ruled for a thousand years until the Andals arrived at the Iron Islands and ended the reign of his descendants (so circa. 3700 BC).

Do you really believe these timings, even if roughly? The Andal invasion begun c.5700BC? Or just looking at it from what's said in-universe? Even then there are differing accounts - particularly with the Andal invasion date (4k years ago, 2k years ago, c.1540BC - Scouring of Lorath) ...

14 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Rogar Bolton kneeled to the King of Winter when the Andals were first arriving, so ~4700 BC. However, according to Theon, it happened "a thousand years ago". According to Theon's quote, this would place Rogar Bolton kneeling to the King of Winter near 700 BC. I have more faith in Yandel's historical sources on this matter, than on Theon's recollection, so I am going to assume that Theon is being imprecise here.

There's nothing specifically stating that Rogar was the Bolton who rebelled c.700BC, though I do think Harlon & Karlon were the Starks that dealt with that one ~1k years ago. It seems like Rogar was from Theon's time (assuming he was the "Raper" c.1700BC, which seems very likely) or before.

16 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Then Reavers from the Sisters capture it (which presumably leads to the Rape of the Three Sisters around 2000 years ago) Theon Stark can be placed here

That does make a lot of sense to be what could've killed one of the many Houses or Starks that held it & also be large enough a catalyst for the Rape (even Theon).

14 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Theon and the Rape. Since Theon had to build a fleet before he could invade Andalos, it appears that the North did not have a fleet before he did so, so it would seem that they could not have conquered the Three Sisters before his time. Similarly, the fact that he landed in the Fingers shortly thereafter makes it clear that this must have been part of the War Across the Water.

As Rhaenys basically said, fleets do need to be updated with new ships &/or completely rebuilt. So there could've been what we'd call a fleet on the Shivering Sea side of the North before Theon. Also I'd be very surprised if there was no Sunset Sea fleet/s at all before Theon (whether built himself or not, he did take Bear Island from Ravos & his Ironborn, & even the Hungry Wolf is unlikely to be able to do that with a few fishing boats). But yes, agreed.

13 hours ago, Nittanian said:

So, a possible list of Stark kings: ...

Brilliant!

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Also, if this places him at around 500 years ago, it would tie in with another nice little factoid. Namely the date when House Mormont received Longclaw. Since Rodrik gave Bear Island to the Mormonts, it would make sense that the acquisition of Longclaw would coincide with this elevation in status. Either because they were awarded the sword for deeds of valour that also earned them Bear Island, or because Bear Island was in truth not won by wrestling match, but by conquest, with one of the leading theories being that a Mormont took Longclaw from the body of a dead Ironborn hero. The discrepancy of course is the reference to Loren Greyjoy's kingsmoot. But this must almost certainly be a mistake, given the order of statues in the crypts and other evidence mentioned above.

Great points! Sure the Mormonts seemingly didn't have the cash to buy their own VS sword, but all the Longclaw = Blackfyre or Dark Sister/some other secret blade specifically set aside for Jon (because Benjen would be stupid enough to blab RLJ to even Aemon & Jeor, & gods know who else) theories are frankly retarded. The logical solution is they took it off a dead Ironborn who had done the same to a fallen Westerosi or foreigner (they were reaving in the Stepstones & beyond at least during the reigns of the later Hoare kings, if not early ones, & perhaps even before those), or (though less likely) were say awarded it by the Starks for their services. Yeah, I'd been following the KitN/KoW wiki page that (seemingly incorrectly) had Rodrik as the son of Rickard & so grandson of Jon) & so Loron was around c.1666BC, but that of course seems wrong now. Perhaps Loron was just the commander who took Bear Island. Though unlikely, but it may be (especially after the three Harmunds) there was a period where the Hoares didn't hold their kingship of the Iron Islands before having to take it back. Perhaps Loren & others tried to form a secessionist state from the Iron Islands or something (hence him still perhaps being able to be chosen by Kingsmoot) ... But yes, it was very likely just a mistake. Placing Rodrik after Brandon the Burner (seemingly correctly) also helps to explain how Loron was able to take Bear Island (& Cape Kraken) in the first place if the Starks had no (at least Summer Sea) fleet.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Catelyn dating Alyssa Arryn's lifetime six thousand years ago is most likely wrong despite the fact that it is rather precise.

I think the Alyssa Arryn legend was added on to/reinforced by the Stark wife (whether she was named the same - there's perhaps a case for this with Alyssa Velaryon born in 7AC, some of the early Targaryens & Velaryons had great heads for politics & this may be a result of such - or similar, or completely different) of Ronnel Arryn. Ronnel was Moon Door'ed first IIRC then his children, & we don't even know if she was too (however fucking stupid he was, it wouldn't be a leap that Jonos would keep her as a hostage), so she may have had a tear-free reaction (initially at least anyway) in trying to be defiant (whatever you want to call it). Hell, I wonder if she may have been the only Alyssa & the Arryns just co-opted it for their own propaganda later ...

On all of the Manderly arrival speculation, I agree with @Free Northman Reborn(mainly I think the one stating such anyway) that Borrell's c.600BC is likely made more recent to suit his own propaganda (not only what you said, but also it would make it look like the Three Sisters actually fought off the Northerners one time too many that made the Starks give up on them, not the Manderlys' arrival). I also think Wylla's is made longer to suit the Manderlys' own propaganda. c.1000BC is a possibility (perhaps more so with 2 sources & I can't back this up atm with a ridiculously long search, but there's a few dubious "years/centuries before the Conquest" remarks he makes that don't match what the timings actually are &/or should be), though 300 years for the Manderlys to actually found White Harbor seems like far too long imo. I think at first they focused on patching up the Wolf's Den & securing the immediate areas around for their people that couldn't live within & then within a couple of generations had the New Keep (which looks very like Dunstonbury supposedly - hard to imagine would be able to do so hundreds of years later unless they brought very specific plans/drawings from the Reach or those who actually fled did afterwards) built & effectively White Harbor itself founded. Of course my opinion is coloured by my own headcanon, but I think c.700BC is best as something of a midpoint.

[Free Northman Reborn]

24 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Seven hells, this is really starting to mess with the pre c.700BC part of the timeline I'm working on

Does it mean the very first Andals to invade Westeros at all though? I'm not so sure. As has been previously discussed in this thread (& elsewhere) it took the Andals a couple of generations from their first landings (I think roughly 2200BC) to conquer the Vale under Artys Arryn, forming the Arryn dynasty over the Vale. Elsewhere:

• It also took at least 2 generations (from Erich VII to Qarlton II) for the Andals to start invading the Stormlands after they first do the Vale, & the at least is if say it took a generation or so after the first landings in the Vale for the threat to be great enough that Erich should've taken more note. At the very minimum, the Storm Kings were fighting against Andals for 5 generations (Qarlton I to Cleoden I) & took 8 generations to assimilate fully with them (Qarlton I to Ormund III).
• The Andals seemingly started invading the Riverlands some time after Artys won the Battle of Seven Stars against Robar & by the time his grandson, Roland I, was a young boy to be fostered with an Andal king in the Riverlands. It then took some 4 generations for House Mudd to finally fall as the last (at the very significant) First Men Kingdom of the Trident. Side-note: Imagine if Tristifer IV ruled when the Andals were only beginning to invade ... It's possible he may have been successful where Robar wasn't.
• IIRC, we can only say with certainty that the Andals had begun invading Dorne by the time of Cleoden I Durrandon, but nothing about how long it took.
• The Westerlands may have begun being attacked before the fall of Tristifer IV, but I'm more inclined to believe it only really started to en masse afterwards there. So let's assume Tybolt Thunderbolt was around the time of Tristifer IV's death (or V's), but whatever the case, there was at least one generation before assimilation started & at least 2-3 before it finished in full.
• Assuming Theon was the Stark King for the Rape (c.1700BC), then Argos was repelled (c.1720BC). I think this fits in well with the Andals only looking this far north (the Weeping Water - not even the White Knife, though they may have been unsuccessful earlier here, mayhaps hence the more northerly attempt - but only within the same generation) after the Vale, Riverlands, likely Stormlands & Dorne & Westerlands had already fallen; not before with such better (& closer) pickings a/v.
• I think the Reach was only invaded after the Scouring of Lorath (c.1540BC - 1436BC or 1422BC modern Lorath was first settled & founded, +100 years after the isles had been uninhabited since the Scouring) because there was obviously a mass Andal migration to Westeros in the aftermath of - sometime by c.1500BC I'm guessing. As we know with the Rape timing, it couldn't have been the already (if not long) united Vale, Stormlands or Westerlands kingdoms, & likely not even the more divided Riverlands or Dornish ones. The Iron Islands were later, far smaller than what the Scouring migration likely was, far more likely undertaken by already Westeros-assimilated Andals &/or "blooded by necessity"(pirates, sellswords, etc) Essosi Andals. So the un-Andalised Reach is the logical migration point for the post-Scouring exiles. Also it works with the Starry Sept only being the seat of the High Septon of the Faith (in all of Westeros) since c.1000BC - even though it had been built by Lord Triston Hightower only the generation before the first was built in Oldtown by his father & 3 before his great-grandfather had been among the first Reachmen to marry an Andal (princess) - it's fair to say it would take a few centuries for the Starry Sept to actually be recognised officially by the other kingdoms as the centre of the Faith for all of them (however the hell that was achieved - one weakness of GRRM's worldbuilding). Anyway, it took at least 6 generations (Gwayne IV to Gwayne V) for the (Scouring) Andals to fully assimilate into the Reach.

The point of all this, like I said in my previous post, is that there was many different waves of the Andal invasions/migrations over the ~1k it took from the 1st Vale landings to the fall of House Greyiron - one (Vale, Stormlands, Riverlands, Dorne, Westerlands), two (Reach), & three (Iron Islands) at the highest end of combining them. I 100% think Theon was a "Raper", so either these "first Andals" were the first ones to come to the North or the Red Kings had bent the knee already but seceded (at least once) sometime before Rogar. Definitely the former imo, possibly the latter too in conjunction.

I'll start this by saying I messed up with the Greystark timing (even after you had posted the quote in your very first post on pg 1, IIRC) due to misreading that the Flints, etc all only came after their fall. So this of course does make Jon being Theon's son less likely & admittedly, my headcanon (of such) was blurring my judgement on such. Still, it could still be possible within the ~1k years of the Worthless War (still assuming Theon did the Rape & Jon was his son). Though I'm definitely leaning far more to Jon being before Theon, particularly considering the order of kings quotes from AGoT & ACoK (I could've sworn that Theon's in ADwD - "my namesake" - were more detailed like Bran's - & backing up the Jon after Theon argument - but I was mistaken). Thanks for the info. Nevertheless, there does remain the possibility that Jon raised the Wolf's Den after the Andals first started landing in the Vale:

Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf's Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea (some scholars suggest these were early Andal incursions, whilst others argue they were the forebears of the men of Ib, or even slavers out of Valyria and Volantis). (The World of Ice & Fire, The Kings of Winter)

If this is your only source for the timing of the Wolf's Den being built before any Andal invasion, then I don't think it can be taken as concrete because Yandel mentions the (at least) possibility that it was specifically to guard against Andals. If that is actually the case, then Jon presumably must have only done so after the Andals' first landings on the Fingers (not every king need be as heedless as Erich VII Durrandon - though I do wonder if his self-styled "the Conqueror" grandson was actually the one to call Erich "Unready" after his own defeat by Togarion Bar Emmon, but that's besides the point - particularly as the mouth of the White Knife was closer than even the northern reaches of the Kingdom of the Storm at that time). Just to skip ahead a bit:

I have difficulty believing it was so long ago tbh, particularly if Volantenes &/or Valyrians had already raided the area prior. Even with (often rather-very inflated for those so long) in-universe timelines only putting the rise of the Valyrian Freehold at c.4700BC, I think it was likely rather later than this. Though all we know is Volantis was only founded after Valyria destroyed Old Ghis & that the Valyrians rose by say c.1800BC (though I think it's safe to say at least 2000BC) as they went "fuck this shit" with Zamettar c.1700BC. A (rough) date for the founding of the Valyrian Freehold is going to be one of the biggest bitches for the timeline, but I'm feeling it was only between c.4000BC & c.3000BC (mayhaps even later) ...

Specific quote please.

As I said earlier in this, I'm almost turned from Jon being after Theon (so now thinking he was before too), but the timeline (if not perhaps what we know - vague as it is - about the order of Stark kings) could still be possible. And if you're meaning "many centuries" as +1k years, like with your 4k (though to a lesser extent of course), I'm not so sure about that. Actually, why are you saying c.3700BC for Jon & the WD?

True. Though are we certain that the Neck (domains of the Marsh King) were even considered part of the North (at least the idea of the geographical area that the Starks wanted to control as kings) before Rickard & Jon. Whilst it likely was, unless we have clear evidence it was, I don't think the possibility can be ruled out. Perhaps I was too influenced for my headcanon for it (& perhaps still am in thinking it still possible, however unlikely), but still. As has been said by myself (& I think others in this thread too), Rogar may not have been the last Bolton to bend the knee (before the Rape anyway) with House Bolton perhaps seceding away from Winterfell at least once before, as we see them later (c.700BC, Roose, perhaps more) do.

Not to be snarky, but I don't think you (or anyone) should be absolute when the evidence isn't there for such (if I have done such myself well then that was a mistake & I apologise for such). There's nothing in that passage that explicitly (or even strongly) suggests that other Andals had come before Argos. In fact I think Argos was the first (on top of the timings & reasoning I did above about the Vale, Stormlands, Riverlands, Dorne & Westerlands seemingly being invaded first) & the "greatest" - Theon Stark's campaign of terror in Andalos showed them that the North isn't to be fucked with (plus whether Rogar bent the knee to Theon or not, the Starks had already unified the North under their kingdom at/by the time of Argos). Daemon I's rebellon was the 1st & "greatest" BfR, after that they generally weakened gradually. Memory of the Hungry Wolf's campaign in Andalos perhaps even influenced post-Scouring Essosi Andals to look to the Reach instead of the North.

Anything specifically as to why you think Rogar was with the Greystarks?

And @Rhaenys_Targaryen ... Why does the Kings in the North/Kings of Winter page have Rodrik as the son of Rickard & so grandson of Jon? Because such familial connections aren't on his own page or House Stark's. Is it because someone assumed it given the first quote of this? Sigh, I thought I was really getting somewhere with actually (roughly) pinpointing when some of the Ironborn kings were (e.g. I had Loron invading Bear Island c.1666BC with Rodrik "wrestling" it back c.1655BC).

Again, I think this is only an assumption you're stating as absolute (from, however likely, assumptions themselves). Sure, Theon seemingly ruled some ~500 years after the Andals first began landing in the Vale, but that doesn't mean (unless you provided that specific explicit quote I asked for earlier - & if so, my bad) it was at least as much for Jon beforehand.

I personally don't like this possibility, but it admittedly is one, particularly with how much of a mess the Ironborn timeline (connected to Theon through Harrag & Ravos) - even if we assume that the Hoares had consolidated their hereditary rule before c.1740BC. Which in itself goes against Harrag being a king chosen by kingsmoot & although far closer to the conquest; I flat out think the c.4700BC = end of House Greyiron date is untrue & have trouble believing that the Hoares ruled near enough continuously for anything more than say 1500 years.

100% agreed. Particularly as c.300BC was likely the time of the Harmunds or the century or two afterwards when the Ironborn basically weren't a threat. I don't care how much grief Brandon the Burner felt, you don't burn your fucking western fleet if the Ironborn are a threat (if not outright raiding/conquering your coastlines & rivers) & neither would the ships' captains, crews & the Sunset Sea Houses sit for it. Unless the Starks have been manipulating the stories of their history to even a much greater degree than we thought & say one or both of those Brandons just got rekt with their fleet by the Ironborn (Blazewater Bay? Though that's almost certainly just because Sunset Sea, & even if referring to some Ironborn victory too, quite unlikely it would be either or both of those Brandons just factoring in the length of the timeline), this is the logical conclusion.

Certainly at least for parts of it. They would still need to make new ships to replace old/missing/destroyed ones & I'd be a bit surprised if at least one Stark fleet wasn't effectively obliterated at least once during the WatW.

Do you really believe these timings, even if roughly? The Andal invasion begun c.5700BC? Or just looking at it from what's said in-universe? Even then there are differing accounts - particularly with the Andal invasion date (4k years ago, 2k years ago, c.1540BC - Scouring of Lorath) ...

There's nothing specifically stating that Rogar was the Bolton who rebelled c.700BC, though I do think Harlon & Karlon were the Starks that dealt with that one ~1k years ago. It seems like Rogar was from Theon's time (assuming he was the "Raper" c.1700BC, which seems very likely) or before.

That does make a lot of sense to be what could've killed one of the many Houses or Starks that held it & also be large enough a catalyst for the Rape (even Theon).

As Rhaenys basically said, fleets do need to be updated with new ships &/or completely rebuilt. So there could've been what we'd call a fleet on the Shivering Sea side of the North before Theon. Also I'd be very surprised if there was no Sunset Sea fleet/s at all before Theon (whether built himself or not, he did take Bear Island from Ravos & his Ironborn, & even the Hungry Wolf is unlikely to be able to do that with a few fishing boats). But yes, agreed.

Brilliant!

Great points! Sure the Mormonts seemingly didn't have the cash to buy their own VS sword, but all the Longclaw = Blackfyre or Dark Sister/some other secret blade specifically set aside for Jon (because Benjen would be stupid enough to blab RLJ to even Aemon & Jeor, & gods know who else) theories are frankly retarded. The logical solution is they took it off a dead Ironborn who had done the same to a fallen Westerosi or foreigner (they were reaving in the Stepstones & beyond at least during the reigns of the later Hoare kings, if not early ones, & perhaps even before those), or (though less likely) were say awarded it by the Starks for their services. Yeah, I'd been following the KitN/KoW wiki page that (seemingly incorrectly) had Rodrik as the son of Rickard & so grandson of Jon) & so Loron was around c.1666BC, but that of course seems wrong now. Perhaps Loron was just the commander who took Bear Island. Though unlikely, but it may be (especially after the three Harmunds) there was a period where the Hoares didn't hold their kingship of the Iron Islands before having to take it back. Perhaps Loren & others tried to form a secessionist state from the Iron Islands or something (hence him still perhaps being able to be chosen by Kingsmoot) ... But yes, it was very likely just a mistake. Placing Rodrik after Brandon the Burner (seemingly correctly) also helps to explain how Loron was able to take Bear Island (& Cape Kraken) in the first place if the Starks had no (at least Summer Sea) fleet.

I think the Alyssa Arryn legend was added on to/reinforced by the Stark wife (whether she was named the same - there's perhaps a case for this with Alyssa Velaryon born in 7AC, some of the early Targaryens & Velaryons had great heads for politics & this may be a result of such - or similar, or completely different) of Ronnel Arryn. Ronnel was Moon Door'ed first IIRC then his children, & we don't even know if she was too (however fucking stupid he was, it wouldn't be a leap that Jonos would keep her as a hostage), so she may have had a tear-free reaction (initially at least anyway) in trying to be defiant (whatever you want to call it). Hell, I wonder if she may have been the only Alyssa & the Arryns just co-opted it for their own propaganda later ...

On all of the Manderly arrival speculation, I agree with @Free Northman Reborn(mainly I think the one stating such anyway) that Borrell's c.600BC is likely made more recent to suit his own propaganda (not only what you said, but also it would make it look like the Three Sisters actually fought off the Northerners one time too many that made the Starks give up on them, not the Manderlys' arrival). I also think Wylla's is made longer to suit the Manderlys' own propaganda. c.1000BC is a possibility (perhaps more so with 2 sources & I can't back this up atm with a ridiculously long search, but there's a few dubious "years/centuries before the Conquest" remarks he makes that don't match what the timings actually are &/or should be), though 300 years for the Manderlys to actually found White Harbor seems like far too long imo. I think at first they focused on patching up the Wolf's Den & securing the immediate areas around for their people that couldn't live within & then within a couple of generations had the New Keep (which looks very like Dunstonbury supposedly - hard to imagine would be able to do so hundreds of years later unless they brought very specific plans/drawings from the Reach or those who actually fled did afterwards) built & effectively White Harbor itself founded. Of course my opinion is coloured by my own headcanon, but I think c.700BC is best as something of a midpoint.

There are separate quotes relating to the timing of the Andals, the building of the Wolf's Den and the Boltons.

The Wolf's Den entry itself says it was built "even before the coming of the Andals".

But the North's history section in the WOIAF, also says that the last Red Kings knelt "just as the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships". Not landing in the North, or, moving into the Reach or the Iron Islands. No, when they were "first crossing the Narrow Sea". This pretty clearly dates the kneeling of the Boltons to the first Andal crossings of the Narrow Sea, no matter where they landed. So in other words, before they had conquered the Vale, let alone moved into the Riverlands, Reach or Iron Isles.

So, the kneeling of the Boltons can be placed that far back. The creation of the Wolf's Den then can be pushed even further back, as at that time the Marsh Kings had not knelt yet, and they knelt before the Boltons did. The Boltons were the last kings to be conquered by the Starks.

This all ties together very nicely. Particularly when you start applying the chronology in Ser Bartimus's tale to the Wolfs Den. Ser Bartimus says:

King Jon Stark raised the Wolf's Den to defend the mouth of the White Knife from raiders from the sea. It was the seat of younger sons, brothers, uncles and cousins to the King in the North. Some passed the castle to their sons and grandsons, and cadet branches of House Stark had arisen. The Greystarks lasted the longest, holding the Wolf's Den for five centuries, until they joined the Dreadfort in rebellion against the Starks of Winterfell.

After the Greystarks, the castle switched many hands. House Flint held it for century, and House Locke for almost two. Slates, Longs, Holts and Ashwoods held the Wolf's Den, charged by Winterfell to keep the river safe. Reavers from the Three Sisters took the castle once, and made it their toehold in the north. During the wars between the North and the Vale, it was besieged by Osgood Arryn, the Old Falcon, and burned by his son, called the Talon.

The Wolf's Den was captured by slavers from the Stepstones when Edrick Stark had grown too feeble to defend his realm. A long, cruel winter came that froze the White Knife, when the slavers were huddled around their fires, Edrick's great-grandson, the new king called "Ice Eyes", took back the Wolf's Den. He stripped the slavers naked and gave them to the slaves chained up in the dungeon. They, among those Ser Bartimus's ancestors, hung the slavers' entrails in the branches of the heart tree as an offering to the old gods.

A thousand years before the War of Conquest, the Manderlys received the Wolf's Den from the Starks

So, according to Ser Bartimus you had many generations pass after the construction of the Wolf's Den, before the Greystarks come to power. Then another 5 centuries pass before the Greystarks' fall. Then 3 centuries pass while the Flints and Lockes occupy the Wolfs Den. Then many more generations pass while various other Houses occupy it.

Then at some point the Wolfs Den is taken by Sistermen, which marks the start of the War Across the Water. And then a thousand years pass before you get to the Manderlys. And their arrival in itself appears to have been as much as 1300 years ago.

So work it all back, and you see that the construction of the Wolf's Den has to happen very long before Theon's time, since he lived during the War Across the Water. (Most likely at its very beginning).

It just all makes sense. It requires no convoluted reasoning, just a simple ordering of the evidence at hand.

[Nittanian]

Here is some of what we know of Rodrik, Bear Island, and Loron Greyjoy.

Quote

That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. (AGOT Bran VII)

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The histories of the North claim that Rodrik Stark won Bear Island back from the ironborn in a wrestling match, and perhaps there is truth to this tale; the kings of the Iron Isles were often moved to prove their prowess and their right to wear the driftwood crown with feats of strength. More sober scholars call this into question, suggesting that if there was "wrestling," it was with words. (TWOIAF The North: The Mountain Clans)

Quote

King Theon also fought the ironborn in the west, driving them from Cape Kraken and Bear Island, put down a rebellion in the Rills, and joined the Night's Watch in an incursion beyond the Wall that broke the power of the wildlings for a generation. (TWOIAF The North: The Kings of Winter)

Quote

The west coast of the North has also oft been beset by reavers, and several of the Hungry Wolf's wars were forced upon him when longships out of Great Wyk, Old Wyk, Pyke, and Orkmont descended upon his western coasts beneath the banners of Harrag Hoare, King of the Iron Islands. For a time the Stony Shore did fealty to Harrag and his ironmen, swathes of the wolfswood were nothing but ashes, and Bear Island was a base for reaving, ruled by Harrag's black-hearted son, Ravos the Raper. Though Theon Stark slew Ravos with his own hand, and expelled the ironmen from his shores, they would return under Harrag's grandson, Erich the Eagle, and again under the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy, who retook both Bear Island and Cape Kraken (King Rodrik Stark reclaimed the first of those after the Old Kraken's death, whilst his sons and grandsons battled for the latter). The wars between the North and the ironborn would continue thereafter, but less decisively. (TWOIAF The North: The Kings of Winter)

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In the century that followed, a succession of weaker kings lost the Arbor, Bear Island, Flint's Finger, and most of the ironborn enclaves along the Sunset Sea, until only a handful remained. (TWOIAF The Iron Islands: Driftwood Crowns)

Quote

"It was a kingsmoot that chose Urras Ironfoot for High King, and placed a driftwood crown upon his brows. Sylas Flatnose, Harrag Hoare, the Old Kraken, the kingsmoot raised them all." (AFFC The Prophet)

Quote

"IRONMEN," said Euron Greyjoy, "you have heard my horn. Now hear my words. I am Balon's brother, Quellon's eldest living son. Lord Vickon's blood is in my veins, and the blood of the Old Kraken." (AFFC The Drowned Men)

So, the island has been contested by ironborn and northmen many times. AGOT states Rodrik won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts, and mentions Rodrik in proximity to Torrhen and Brandon the Burner (who are more recent kings). TWOIAF Theon the Hungry Wolf won Bear Island during his reign and also that Rodrik reclaimed Bear Island after the death of the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy. AFFC states the Old Kraken was raised by a kingsmoot (so a High King chosen prior to the Greyiron and Hoare dynasties). TWOIAF states Bear Island was lost by weaker driftwood high kings (although this doesn't necessarily mean the Rodrik instance). TWOIAF also states that the driftwood kings were willing to engage in feats of strength, indicating that the Bear Island wrestling story is from the driftwood era and not more recent times (even if the wrestling never actually occurred).

Regarding inconsistencies between the novels and the world book, GRRM stated, "The novels always trump."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

And @Rhaenys_Targaryen ... Why does the Kings in the North/Kings of Winter page have Rodrik as the son of Rickard & so grandson of Jon? Because such familial connections aren't on his own page or House Stark's. Is it because someone assumed it given the first quote of this? Sigh, I thought I was really getting somewhere with actually (roughly) pinpointing when some of the Ironborn kings were (e.g. I had Loron invading Bear Island c.1666BC with Rodrik "wrestling" it back c.1655BC).

I have no idea! I don't see how the quote you linked could be taken to mean that Rodrik was Rickard's son. Since I couldn't find a reference anywhere, I've removed the mentioning form the Kings of Winter page.

The Loron discrepancy as noted by Nittanean makes it questionable as to when Loron lived. AFFC places him as living during the times of the Kingsmoot (as oppposed to TWOIAF, but when that book disagrees with the main books, we've been told to go with the info from the main books). Balon places the last Kingsmoot as dating back 5000 years, while Archmaester Haereg claims 4000 years, and Maester Denestan says 2000.

9 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Do you really believe these timings, even if roughly? The Andal invasion begun c.5700BC? Or just looking at it from what's said in-universe? Even then there are differing accounts - particularly with the Andal invasion date (4k years ago, 2k years ago, c.1540BC - Scouring of Lorath) ...

I wrote 4700 BC, not 5700 BC  That was based on Theon's  Balon's statement, placing Urron Redhand as having lived 5000 years ago. Other historians disagree (as I wrote above). I doubt that Maester Denestans date of 2000 years is correct. The Andal invasion has been stated to be 6000 years ago, 4000 years ago, or 2000 years ago, depending on the source. It is thought that the Andals fled west due to the expanding Valyrian Freehold. Following the destruction of Old Ghis, the Valyrian Freehold made a truce with the Rhoynar, build Volantis, and began to expand into the area's where the Andals were living (as told by maester Yandel). 

As Old Ghis fell five thousand years ago, according to Daenerys (i.e., ~4700 BC), that would make it highly unlikely that the Andal invasion was 6000 years ago.

Because the truce between the Rhoynar and Valyrians is described as "in the centuries after the fall of Ghis", I would interpret this as meaning that the Valyrians turning towards the lands of the Andals relatively quickly after the fall of Old Ghis. Perhaps it was only a matter of a few hundred years between the defeat of Old Ghis, and the start of the Andal invasion, causing both to be described as having been 5000 years ago.

Haereg's 4000 years ago (i.e., 3700 BC) is another possibility. In that case, the Andals arrived around 3700 BC instead of 4700 BC, and Urron's line would then have ruled from ~3700 BC until 2700 BC (as his line was ended a thousand years after the Andals first arrived at the Vale). Which would make Theon incorrect by a thousand years (but so be it!). 

 

It is, however, interesting to see the suggestions of the dates for the last Kingsmoot date (Urron Redhand) being so similar to the date of the Andal invasion (4000 years ago, 2000 years ago). The suggestion of the last Kingsmoot as well as the suggestion of the Andal invasion as having been 2000 years ago both come from maester Denestan, possibly implying that those two dates are, as the information provided by Yandel states that 1) Urron's line ended after a thousand years of rule, 2) it took the Andals a thousand year to reach the Iron Islands).

 

That there were Andals in Lorath more than 1800 years ago does not necessarily mean that the main group of Andals had not yet migrated to Westeros, I think. The Andals took the islands, and ruled for more than a thousand years (so they arrived more than 2800 years ago). Did this group of Andals flee the expansion of the Valyrian Freehold as well, turning north instead of west? I'd call it possible. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

16 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Here is some of what we know of Rodrik, Bear Island, and Loron Greyjoy.

So, the island has been contested by ironborn and northmen many times. AGOT states Rodrik won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts, and mentions Rodrik in proximity to Torrhen and Brandon the Burner (who are more recent kings). TWOIAF Theon the Hungry Wolf won Bear Island during his reign and also that Rodrik reclaimed Bear Island after the death of the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy. AFFC states the Old Kraken was raised by a kingsmoot (so a High King chosen prior to the Greyiron and Hoare dynasties). TWOIAF states Bear Island was lost by weaker driftwood high kings (although this doesn't necessarily mean the Rodrik instance). TWOIAF also states that the driftwood kings were willing to engage in feats of strength, indicating that the Bear Island wrestling story is from the driftwood era and not more recent times (even if the wrestling never actually occurred).

Regarding inconsistencies between the novels and the world book, GRRM stated, "The novels always trump."

But the novels also place the Bear Island wrestling recently, given that it places Rodrik virtually next to Torhenn Stark in the crypts.