Bolton rebellion against Stark's and related stuff.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

@direpupy Thanks! And apologies for being so late to the party. Well, here goes ...

Only really the Peakes (geez, I have some tinfoil about some of the history of these guys!) & Manderlys stuff is truly mine own (& hence their resettlement at the Wolf's Den perhaps being the catalyst to end the War Across the Water), though I have of course seen others state things similar. The rest came from hints or outright mapping from others - particularly the RftIT essay that sold me on Theon = Stark king for Rape of the Three Sisters.

• c.1721BC: Rogar bends the knee to Theon & his sons (one being Belthasar) are fostered in Winterfell to ensure his loyalty & to improve the Houses' relationship. This is instigated by the Boltons allying with Theon to defeat Argos (the first, & only, Andal invader from across the Narrow Sea we know of on the North - fitting with Rogar sending his sons to Winterfell at the start of the invasion - the North specifically), though perhaps Rogar had initially pulled a Jon Brightstone/Dywen Shell/Osgood Shett (heh) before thinking better of it & turning against Argos. Though that not need be the case because of the preceding bloody Stark-Bolton history, it's common practice for kings to take wards of new vassals (& certainly we know the Starks do & have), & of course the Hungry Wolf wasn't just a mindless warmonger - he knew things would go at lot smoother if he has leverage.
• c.1720BC-c.1702BC: Theon does his thing against Andalos, the Ironborn, wildlings & rebellious bannermen (in the Rills - so the possible extinction of House Ryder, once kings long before, & the rise of House Ryswell?).
• c.1700BC: Sick of the Sistermen being fucktards, Theon & now Lord Belthasar bring some Northern "joy" to the Three Sisters. Sunderlands, etc go to the Eyrie. House Arryn accepts their fealty & begin the Worthless War.
• c.1698BC: Theon lands an army on the Fingers, perhaps as an attempt at further conquest given the Vale's now involvement (had this been a few centuries earlier, it's possible the likes of the Royces, Hunters, Redforts, etc would've rebelled to take the Vale back for the First Men), though I'm guessing more likely to draw the Eyrie's power away from the Three Sisters for a time so the Northerners could reconsolidate there after the initial counterattack by Mathos II.

Although we only know for certain that flaying was only banned by Harlon/his eldest son some centuries later, Theon is exactly the kind of historical Stark to have let Belthasar's atrocities slide (if not outright approve, perhaps even something of a Tywin to Gregor order), particularly if there was a strong foster bond there. Idk why Theon would invade the Fingers if he wasn't the Stark who oversaw the Rape - all of his other military actions were essentially defensive (if very proactive in some cases), besides Andalos where he was sending a message to the Andals not to fuck with the North - makes far more sense if he did the Rape, to do the same kind of thing again to the Arryns & the Vale. I should say on this & the c.700BC timings, these are the kinds of things I think work well meshed together to make the timeline more cohesive & understandable.

Whitegrove certainly could've been the Peakes already, but I do lean towards the Manderlys - it may have been able to act as a temporary buffer against the power of Highgarden & Starpike to allow them enough time to escape. Also it would further explain the Manderlys' wealth & power. Of course there's also the possibility that some other House had Whitegrove & the Peakes earned it then if it was a Manderly vassal/ally or just sometime later for something else (though I'm certain Lorimar was the first Peake to have all 3 castles). Nor would the Peakes be weak only holding Starpike - even so weakened then by failed Blackfyre loyalties, the Storming of Starpike took the lives of Maekar, Lord Robert Reyne (whose House fought with the Peakes in the 1st BfR, possibly the 3rd too) & Ser Tywald Lannister (heir to Casterly Rock) - & possibly necessitated troops from the Crownlands & Westerlands at least. Starpike's (historical) lands are likely among some of the most fertile in the Reach imo being towards the south of it, so close to the Mander & nutrients running down from the Red Mountains. There's also the possibility that Lorimar had long had manipulable Perceon III's ear to enrich his House even before the ousting of the Manderlys.

I'm not sure if the Last River itself was the actual northern border of the Bolton lands - it may mean more upriver between themselves & the Umbers, & then perhaps cutting back east to the Bay of Seals/Grey Cliffs. And can we truly say that the "domains from the Last River to the White Knife & to the Sheepshead Hills was that of their kingdom at the height of its power or just those direct of House Bolton themselves? If the latter, they could've had vassals whose lands extended to surround that of the Umbers' in the east (& so now the Karstarks') & perhaps even all the way down mouth of the White Knife itself (so possibly everything east of that river & then the Lonely Hills). Unlikely, but the mouth of White Knife may have been part of the lands of Rogar (via a vassal) handed over to (Theon) Stark, especially if Jon Stark was Theon's son & only built the Wolf's Den after the start of the war with the Vale (makes the greatest sense for its conception imo). It's fitting imo if Theon was both the last King of Winter of a non-unified North, but also the first King in the North of the unified "region" when the Boltons finally bend the knee. Then Jon sets out holding & fortifying it with the Wolf's Den. And then his son, Rickon, adds the Neck to the North to bolster that with Moat Cailin which will go on to stop Andal invasions just as it had stopped FM Riverlander ones in earlier times (when the Starks, Marsh Kings, Barrow Kings, &/or Red Kings had only allied for such).

But anyway, yeah I agree that the now Karstarks' lands was presumably that of a Bolton vassal &/or ally instead - thanks for the clarification. And nice work, that Greenwood solution is a fair possibility too. And although TWoIaF says that they ended like, among others, the Warg King (i.e. Blackwoods imo); that doesn't necessarily mean it was so far in the past too. IIRC, there doesn't seem to be any other named extinct (or possibly for those with unknown fates) House that would fit the bill for the such forested Karstark lands. The Greenwoods were once kings & if located there, presumably they were only brought down after the Umbers had bent the knee to Winterfell. Mayhaps the Umbers first truly proved their loyalty to the Starks in helping to bring the Greenwoods down to vassals too ...

On the Hornwoods & whom the Karstarks lands came from, I remember I also speculated similar a while back. Nevertheless, I think that the Hornwoods/their founder being part of the same conflict is fitting

On 11/27/2016 at 1:32 PM, Seams said:

As an event, I suppose the arrival of Nymeria in Dorne might be comparable, except she married a Martell and became princess.

Especially if the timings are pretty accurate (seems like things were getting far more so by this time, if not earlier, with the Andal permeation all across Westeros, likely even in the North with maesters), Nymeria got to Dorne only 4-5 years after the Manderlys got to the North (supposedly about the same time as the Second Spice War). The Manderlys of course couldn't go to the Westerlands, Dorne or Stormlands being historical enemies as Gardener vassals (plus none had the large rivers like the Reach had, or the mouths of such not already taken), the Riverlands were a clusterfuck for the most part ever since the Andal invasions (I estimate House Justman had just ended the year before too), & the Vale was already long established with stability.

On 11/27/2016 at 1:32 PM, Seams said:

This is one of those places where GRRM is explicit about the differences in the history as told in the Vale and as told in the North. The Vale stories make it sound as if the Northmen were horrible monsters, cannibalizing children among other atrocities. It doesn't say anything about this behavior coming only from the Bolton bannermen from the North. I think we are getting a hint here that there is a hidden, nasty side to the Starks.

I don't think they were eating children, but I'm 100% sure that their would've been civilian casualties, including children - perhaps even mass genocide (the Northerners really did hate the raiding Sistermen, which could be further explain if Theon was the Stark king for it with the amount of warring he had to do against the Ironborn - the Sistermen basically being the poorer, because only the Bite compared to the Sunset Sea, cousins of them). The "entrails on spits & execution of 3k warriors in one day" sounds like mass weirwood sacrifices imo considering what we learn about it in ADwD from almost all the PoVs in the North.

On 11/27/2016 at 1:32 PM, Seams said:

(And it fits with another possible theory of mine if this nasty side has something to do with raping a sister, so I admit I might be bending this narrative to fit with a preconceived notion.)

Interesting (if disturbing), care to elaborate? ... Something somewhat similar may have happened with House Durrandon, perhaps twice!

On 11/27/2016 at 1:32 PM, Seams said:

land in The Gift for the Night's Watch ... I've always been suspicious of Good Queen Alysanne's "two estrangements" from King Jaehaerys I, and whether she had an affair and gave birth to an illegitimate child during those estrangements. She spent time in the north, building or taking possession of the tower called the Queenscrown, befriending the Night's Watch and convincing the Starks to give over a large swath of land to the Night's Watch to generate income to support the group.

Well, that was some beautiful tinfoil, but Jaehaerys & Alysanne's progress to the North (& what they did there) was master politics against belligerent Starks & other Northerners starting to get a little too keen on secession. TWoIaF details that the Second Quarrel was from 92-94AC (Alysanne was nearing 60 so she wasn't having a kid then) was about Jaehaerys choosing Baelon as his heir (after the death of the previous, Aemon) instead of Baelon's niece, Rhaenys, who should've come before him by normal Andal inheritance. Eventually a daughter of theirs, Septa Maegelle, reconciled them somehow (Maegelle was a fucking boss, but I think she simply just told them about her greyscale diagnosis, which killed her 2 years later). The First we know nothing about, but after some of @Lord Varys comments in the other thread which brought about this one, I have a headcanon for it:

• Prince Aegon, J&A's eldest son, dies around 14 & had been betrothed to the eldest of his sisters, Princess Alyssa, & the next eldest son, Prince Aemon, had long been betrothed to his half-aunt, Jocelyn Baratheon.
• Jaehaerys wants to break the Aemon-Jocelyn betrothal for him to take his elder brother's place for Alyssa. Alysanne disagrees, reminding her husband of the blood, political & personal ties they have to the Baratheons. Jaehaerys, remembering their traumatic childhood as hostages of Maegor & Visenya & then hiding at Storm's End after escaping, is pissed that his wife would bring up such & doesn't budge.
• Alysanne now pissed at him too, packs her bags, & takes their younger children (to Princess Daella) to Storm's End in a show of support for them & defiance against Jaehaerys.
• 1-2 years later, Jaehaerys finally relents & allows the Aemon-Jocelyn match to stand & a compromise is made with the next eldest son after Aemon, Prince Baelon, being matched to Alyssa instead. If he himself had been betrothed to Daella, that has to be broken, but perhaps a compromise is made again when she is betrothed to Rodrik Arryn to reward his House for the loyalty & also as bit of sorry for what happened to Ronnel & his kids (& perhaps his Stark wife - who I wonder if she may be a part of, or the, Alyssa Arryn legend).

On 11/27/2016 at 2:04 PM, Isobel Harper said:

The Starks lost interest in The Three Sisters after the Manderlys settled in White Harbor, right?  (Not sure if I understood the OP.)  The explanation could be rather simple: the Starks wanted lands that brought in better trade.  The Three Sisters would do so.  However, White Harbor flourished under the Manderlys and trade increased.  Therefore, the Starks lost interest in the Sisters because they didn't need it anymore.

Yes, that's my assumption. All of this of course is based on the several c.700BC timings. If they actually aren't quite so accurate, then certainly your alternative is a fair possibility at least, good point.

On 11/27/2016 at 2:04 PM, Isobel Harper said:

Hmm, so Ramsey's attack on Lady Hornwood wasn't just simple, random viciousness.  He wanted "Bolton" lands back.

See my 2nd link in this (sprawl of a reply) - just above the first quote off Seams.

On 11/27/2016 at 7:48 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

What's more, the War Across the Water appears only to have broken out centuries after the Greystarks' departure ... 4000 years ago - Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den ...

Evidence for the first? ... I subscribe to the wiki's order of succession for the Stark kings - that Jon (& so Rickard) came after Theon (in fact, I think Jon was his son). To protect the White Knife from an even greater threat than the Sistermen (& various other essentially pirates from further abroad) in the power of the Vale itself is most fitting imo for Jon having the Wolf's Den built. Even with the Greystarks holding it for ~500 years (the way timelines are exaggerated this could easily be only 300-400 years too), & another ~290 between the Flints & the Lockes, & the other Houses & Starks that hold it; it's bloody history during the Worthless War can easily account for all those keepers within a millennium ... O/w, I completely agree.

On 11/28/2016 at 11:13 PM, direpupy said:

Even before the coming of the Andals, the Wolf's Den had been raised by King Jon Stark, built to defend the mouth of the White Knife against raiders and slavers from across the narrow sea (some scholars suggest these were early Andal incursions, whilst others argue they were the forebears of the men of Ib, or even slavers out of Valyria and Volantis).

Which coming of the Andals though? It took them ~1k years to conquer all of Westeros south of the Neck, in effectively many waves. Even being general there was the one for the longest (though again this definitely has distinct waves) where the Vale & Riverlands fell, & the Stormlands & Dorne to a lesser extent, & then the Westerlands really started getting the assimilation through peace instead of war down well. Then there's what I think was another which migrated to the Reach c.1500BC due to the Scouring of Lorath after the fall of Qarlon. Then there's the last (c.1200BC? I've yet to map this part out properly, but those timings you suggest for the very first wave from Essos sound pretty good & so extrapolates to about this) which overruns the Iron Islands & installs the Hoares over the extinguished Greyirons - being already long "Westeros Andals" &/or lingering Essosi Andals that had to assimilate with the Valyrian expansions (&/or turn to things like piracy).

A lot of what Yandel mentions as timings associated with/extrapolated or interpolated from the Andal "invasion" seems to be taking into consideration the Reach one imo (makes sense given the Citadel's location & the Starry Sept & the Hightowers). "Early Andal incursions" (if my timeline is right & this is only ~2 decades after Argos) could perhaps fall under the Arryns themselves. Even Essosi Andals & Ibbenese/hairy men are fair possibilities to have taken advantage of the War Across the Water to raid both parties (but the North easier with its sheer size over the Vale & less geographically hostile coastline for the most part) after they've bled each other for that generation or so. If it was before the coming of the Andals though (particularly taking the clearly ridiculous ~6k years ago timeline for that), Valyria & Volantis don't make much sense considering the far better targets closer to home & the First Daughter may not have even existed yet, perhaps even the Valyrian Freehold itself.

[Free Northman Reborn]

49 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@direpupy Thanks! And apologies for being so late to the party. Well, here goes ...

Only really the Peakes (geez, I have some tinfoil about some of the history of these guys!) & Manderlys stuff is truly mine own (& hence their resettlement at the Wolf's Den perhaps being the catalyst to end the War Across the Water), though I have of course seen others state things similar. The rest came from hints or outright mapping from others - particularly the RftIT essay that sold me on Theon = Stark king for Rape of the Three Sisters.

• c.1721BC: Rogar bends the knee to Theon & his sons (one being Belthasar) are fostered in Winterfell to ensure his loyalty & to improve the Houses' relationship. This is instigated by the Boltons allying with Theon to defeat Argos (the first, & only, Andal invader from across the Narrow Sea we know of on the North - fitting with Rogar sending his sons to Winterfell at the start of the invasion - the North specifically), though perhaps Rogar had initially pulled a Jon Brightstone/Dywen Shell/Osgood Shett (heh) before thinking better of it & turning against Argos. Though that not need be the case because of the preceding bloody Stark-Bolton history, it's common practice for kings to take wards of new vassals (& certainly we know the Starks do & have), & of course the Hungry Wolf wasn't just a mindless warmonger - he knew things would go at lot smoother if he has leverage.
• c.1720BC-c.1702BC: Theon does his thing against Andalos, the Ironborn, wildlings & rebellious bannermen (in the Rills - so the possible extinction of House Ryder, once kings long before, & the rise of House Ryswell?).
• c.1700BC: Sick of the Sistermen being fucktards, Theon & now Lord Belthasar bring some Northern "joy" to the Three Sisters. Sunderlands, etc go to the Eyrie. House Arryn accepts their fealty & begin the Worthless War.
• c.1698BC: Theon lands an army on the Fingers, perhaps as an attempt at further conquest given the Vale's now involvement (had this been a few centuries earlier, it's possible the likes of the Royces, Hunters, Redforts, etc would've rebelled to take the Vale back for the First Men), though I'm guessing more likely to draw the Eyrie's power away from the Three Sisters for a time so the Northerners could reconsolidate there after the initial counterattack by Mathos II.

Although we only know for certain that flaying was only banned by Harlon/his eldest son some centuries later, Theon is exactly the kind of historical Stark to have let Belthasar's atrocities slide (if not outright approve, perhaps even something of a Tywin to Gregor order), particularly if there was a strong foster bond there. Idk why Theon would invade the Fingers if he wasn't the Stark who oversaw the Rape - all of his other military actions were essentially defensive (if very proactive in some cases), besides Andalos where he was sending a message to the Andals not to fuck with the North - makes far more sense if he did the Rape, to do the same kind of thing again to the Arryns & the Vale. I should say on this & the c.700BC timings, these are the kinds of things I think work well meshed together to make the timeline more cohesive & understandable.

Whitegrove certainly could've been the Peakes already, but I do lean towards the Manderlys - it may have been able to act as a temporary buffer against the power of Highgarden & Starpike to allow them enough time to escape. Also it would further explain the Manderlys' wealth & power. Of course there's also the possibility that some other House had Whitegrove & the Peakes earned it then if it was a Manderly vassal/ally or just sometime later for something else (though I'm certain Lorimar was the first Peake to have all 3 castles). Nor would the Peakes be weak only holding Starpike - even so weakened then by failed Blackfyre loyalties, the Storming of Starpike took the lives of Maekar, Lord Robert Reyne (whose House fought with the Peakes in the 1st BfR, possibly the 3rd too) & Ser Tywald Lannister (heir to Casterly Rock) - & possibly necessitated troops from the Crownlands & Westerlands at least. Starpike's (historical) lands are likely among some of the most fertile in the Reach imo being towards the south of it, so close to the Mander & nutrients running down from the Red Mountains. There's also the possibility that Lorimar had long had manipulable Perceon III's ear to enrich his House even before the ousting of the Manderlys.

I'm not sure if the Last River itself was the actual northern border of the Bolton lands - it may mean more upriver between themselves & the Umbers, & then perhaps cutting back east to the Bay of Seals/Grey Cliffs. And can we truly say that the "domains from the Last River to the White Knife & to the Sheepshead Hills was that of their kingdom at the height of its power or just those direct of House Bolton themselves? If the latter, they could've had vassals whose lands extended to surround that of the Umbers' in the east (& so now the Karstarks') & perhaps even all the way down mouth of the White Knife itself (so possibly everything east of that river & then the Lonely Hills). Unlikely, but the mouth of White Knife may have been part of the lands of Rogar (via a vassal) handed over to (Theon) Stark, especially if Jon Stark was Theon's son & only built the Wolf's Den after the start of the war with the Vale (makes the greatest sense for its conception imo). It's fitting imo if Theon was both the last King of Winter of a non-unified North, but also the first King in the North of the unified "region" when the Boltons finally bend the knee. Then Jon sets out holding & fortifying it with the Wolf's Den. And then his son, Rickon, adds the Neck to the North to bolster that with Moat Cailin which will go on to stop Andal invasions just as it had stopped FM Riverlander ones in earlier times (when the Starks, Marsh Kings, Barrow Kings, &/or Red Kings had only allied for such).

But anyway, yeah I agree that the now Karstarks' lands was presumably that of a Bolton vassal &/or ally instead - thanks for the clarification. And nice work, that Greenwood solution is a fair possibility too. And although TWoIaF says that they ended like, among others, the Warg King (i.e. Blackwoods imo); that doesn't necessarily mean it was so far in the past too. IIRC, there doesn't seem to be any other named extinct (or possibly for those with unknown fates) House that would fit the bill for the such forested Karstark lands. The Greenwoods were once kings & if located there, presumably they were only brought down after the Umbers had bent the knee to Winterfell. Mayhaps the Umbers first truly proved their loyalty to the Starks in helping to bring the Greenwoods down to vassals too ...

On the Hornwoods & whom the Karstarks lands came from, I remember I also speculated similar a while back. Nevertheless, I think that the Hornwoods/their founder being part of the same conflict is fitting

Especially if the timings are pretty accurate (seems like things were getting far more so by this time, if not earlier, with the Andal permeation all across Westeros, likely even in the North with maesters), Nymeria got to Dorne only 4-5 years after the Manderlys got to the North (supposedly about the same time as the Second Spice War). The Manderlys of course couldn't go to the Westerlands, Dorne or Stormlands being historical enemies as Gardener vassals (plus none had the large rivers like the Reach had, or the mouths of such not already taken), the Riverlands were a clusterfuck for the most part ever since the Andal invasions (I estimate House Justman had just ended the year before too), & the Vale was already long established with stability.

I don't think they were eating children, but I'm 100% sure that their would've been civilian casualties, including children - perhaps even mass genocide (the Northerners really did hate the raiding Sistermen, which could be further explain if Theon was the Stark king for it with the amount of warring he had to do against the Ironborn - the Sistermen basically being the poorer, because only the Bite compared to the Sunset Sea, cousins of them). The "entrails on spits & execution of 3k warriors in one day" sounds like mass weirwood sacrifices imo considering what we learn about it in ADwD from almost all the PoVs in the North.

Interesting (if disturbing), care to elaborate? ... Something somewhat similar may have happened with House Durrandon, perhaps twice!

Well, that was some beautiful tinfoil, but Jaehaerys & Alysanne's progress to the North (& what they did there) was master politics against belligerent Starks & other Northerners starting to get a little too keen on secession. TWoIaF details that the Second Quarrel was from 92-94AC (Alysanne was nearing 60 so she wasn't having a kid then) was about Jaehaerys choosing Baelon as his heir (after the death of the previous, Aemon) instead of Baelon's niece, Rhaenys, who should've come before him by normal Andal inheritance. Eventually a daughter of theirs, Septa Maegelle, reconciled them somehow (Maegelle was a fucking boss, but I think she simply just told them about her greyscale diagnosis, which killed her 2 years later). The First we know nothing about, but after some of @Lord Varys comments in the other thread which brought about this one, I have a headcanon for it:

• Prince Aegon, J&A's eldest son, dies around 14 & had been betrothed to the eldest of his sisters, Princess Alyssa, & the next eldest son, Prince Aemon, had long been betrothed to his half-aunt, Jocelyn Baratheon.
• Jaehaerys wants to break the Aemon-Jocelyn betrothal for him to take his elder brother's place for Alyssa. Alysanne disagrees, reminding her husband of the blood, political & personal ties they have to the Baratheons. Jaehaerys, remembering their traumatic childhood as hostages of Maegor & Visenya & then hiding at Storm's End after escaping, is pissed that his wife would bring up such & doesn't budge.
• Alysanne now pissed at him too, packs her bags, & takes their younger children (to Princess Daella) to Storm's End in a show of support for them & defiance against Jaehaerys.
• 1-2 years later, Jaehaerys finally relents & allows the Aemon-Jocelyn match to stand & a compromise is made with the next eldest son after Aemon, Prince Baelon, being matched to Alyssa instead. If he himself had been betrothed to Daella, that has to be broken, but perhaps a compromise is made again when she is betrothed to Rodrik Arryn to reward his House for the loyalty & also as bit of sorry for what happened to Ronnel & his kids (& perhaps his Stark wife - who I wonder if she may be a part of, or the, Alyssa Arryn legend).

Yes, that's my assumption. All of this of course is based on the several c.700BC timings. If they actually aren't quite so accurate, then certainly your alternative is a fair possibility at least, good point.

See my first link in this (sprawl of a reply) - just above the first quote off Seams.

Evidence for the first? ... I subscribe to the wiki's order of succession for the Stark kings - that Jon (& so Rickard) came after Theon (in fact, I think Jon was his son). To protect the White Knife from an even greater threat than the Sistermen (& various other essentially pirates from further abroad) in the power of the Vale itself is most fitting imo for Jon having the Wolf's Den built. Even with the Greystarks holding it for ~500 years (the way timelines are exaggerated this could easily be only 300-400 years too), & another ~290 between the Flints & the Lockes, & the other Houses & Starks that hold it; it's bloody history during the Worthless War can easily account for all those keepers within a millennium ... O/w, I completely agree.

Which coming of the Andals though? It took them ~1k years to conquer all of Westeros south of the Neck, in effectively many waves. Even being general there was the one for the longest (though again this definitely has distinct waves) where the Vale & Riverlands fell, & the Stormlands & Dorne to a lesser extent, & then the Westerlands really started getting the assimilation through peace instead of war down well. Then there's what I think was another which migrated to the Reach c.1500BC due to the Scouring of Lorath after the fall of Qarlon. Then there's the last (c.1200BC? I've yet to map this part out properly, but those timings you suggest for the very first wave from Essos sound pretty good & so extrapolates to about this) which overruns the Iron Islands & installs the Hoares over the extinguished Greyirons - being already long "Westeros Andals" &/or lingering Essosi Andals that had to assimilate with the Valyrian expansions (&/or turn to things like piracy).

A lot of what Yandel mentions as timings associated with/extrapolated or interpolated from the Andal "invasion" seems to be taking into consideration the Reach one imo (makes sense given the Citadel's location & the Starry Sept & the Hightowers). "Early Andal incursions" (if my timeline is right & this is only ~2 decades after Argos) could perhaps fall under the Arryns themselves. Even Essosi Andals & Ibbenese/hairy men are fair possibilities to have taken advantage of the War Across the Water to raid both parties (but the North easier with its sheer size over the Vale & less geographically hostile coastline for the most part) after they've bled each other for that generation or so. If it was before the coming of the Andals though (particularly taking the clearly ridiculous ~6k years ago timeline for that), Valyria & Volantis don't make much sense considering the far better targets closer to home & the First Daughter may not have even existed yet, perhaps even the Valyrian Freehold itself.

I like some of what you said above, but your timeline is way off with respect to some of your other points. The creators of the Wiki don't have access to any information that didn't come from published sources. The Wiki is simply wrong with their placement of Theon and Jon Stark in the chronology of Stark Kings, as they are with the placing of Brandon the Shipwright and his son Brandon the Burner. I have in fact raised this point many times before in the forum, but the Wiki hasn't been updated yet as far as I can see.

The text we have from the published books is quite clear.

First, the Red Kings knelt to the Starks just as the "first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships". That means, before the Andals conquered the Vale. So, since the Arryns were already long established rulers of the Vale by the time of the Rape of the Three Sisters, clearly this event happened many centuries after the Boltons first knelt to the Starks.

Secondly, and corroborating the above, the text says Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den before the Andals came. Again, proving that it was built before Theon's time, not after it, since Theon was fighting Andal warlords in his time.

Thirdly, Ser Bartimus's chronology makes it quite clear that many centuries passed between Jon Stark's building of the Wolf's Den, and the start of the War Across the Water. A host of Houses held the Wolf's Den in this intervening period.

Fourthly, the Boltons were the last kings to kneel to the Starks. And yet, the Marsh Kings only knelt to Jon Stark's son. Meaning they knelt AFTER the Wolf's Den was built. Which in turn means that the Boltons only knelt AFTER Jon Stark's son's time.

Fifthly, Argos Sevenstar is mentioned as the "greatest" Andal threat to the North. Not the only one, or the first one. Just the greatest one. So there would have been Andal invaders in the North before Argos, and Andal invaders after him. Just none that matched his strength.

So, every bit of evidence in the published books combines to create a chronology roughly as follows:

4000 years ago - Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den

3980 years ago - Jon's son Rickard conquers the Neck

3980-2500 years ago - Various Houses hold the Wolf's Den, until the Greystarks join with the Boltons against the Starks and are cast down.

2500 years ago  - The Andal migration starts, the Greystark rebellion is crushed and Rogar Bolton kneels to Winterfell

2500-2000 years ago - Various Andal invasions of the North are crushed, while the Vale falls and the Arryns become Kings.

2000 years ago - Theon Stark defeats Argos Sevenstar, invades Andalos, and leads the Rape of the Three Sisters. The War Across the Water commences.

1000 years ago - The Manderlys arrive and the War Across the Water soon ends.

 

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I like some of what you said above, but your timeline is way off with respect to some of your other points. The creators of the Wiki don't have access to any information that didn't come from published sources. The Wiki is simply wrong with their placement of Theon and Jon Stark in the chronology of Stark Kings, as they are with the placing of Brandon the Shipwright and his son Brandon the Burner. I have in fact raised this point many times before in the forum, but the Wiki hasn't been updated yet as far as I can see.

If you notice inaccuracies please bring them to our attention in the wiki forum! We can update the King in the North article, but what do you think is the best listing? @Rhaenys_Targaryen, any thoughts?

AGOT Bran VII (chronological)

Quote

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. "That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father's father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark's the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the 'Hungry Wolf,' because he was always at war. That's a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father's ships in grief. There's Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that's Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt."

ACOK Bran VII (reverse chronological)

Quote

The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. 

AGOT and ACOK flip the placement of Theon in relation to the Burner and the Shipwright. Based on these excerpts, maybe:

Bran the Builder

Brandon the Breaker (defeated the Night's King)

 

Jon (built the Wolf's Den)

Rickard (Jon's son, took the Neck)

Edrick Snowbeard (lost the Wolf's Den to slavers, also threatened by Boltons)

Brandon "Ice Eyes" (Edrick's great-grandson)

Benjen the Bitter

Benjen the Sweet

Eyron

Edderion the Bridegroom

Walton the Moon King

Brandon the Bad

Jonos

Jorah

Theon the Hungry Wolf

Brandon the Shipwright

Brandon the Burner

Rodrik (won Bear Island)

Torrhen, the King Who Knelt

Robb, the Young Wolf

 

unknown placement:

Dorren (ruled when the NW fought giants and traded with COTF, so probably ancient)

Brandon IX (broke the Skagosi)

Harlon (defeated Boltons hundreds of years ago)

Edwyn the Spring King (before or after Rodrik)

[Free Northman Reborn]

47 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

If you notice inaccuracies please bring them to our attention in the wiki forum! We can update the King in the North article, but what do you think is the best listing? @Rhaenys_Targaryen, any thoughts?

AGOT Bran VII (chronological)

ACOK Bran VII (reverse chronological)

AGOT and ACOK flip the placement of Theon in relation to the Burner and the Shipwright. Based on these excerpts, maybe:

Bran the Builder

Brandon the Breaker (defeated the Night's King)

 

Jon (built the Wolf's Den)

Rickard (Jon's son, took the Neck)

Edrick Snowbeard (lost the Wolf's Den to slavers, also threatened by Boltons)

Brandon "Ice Eyes" (Edrick's great-grandson)

Benjen the Bitter

Benjen the Sweet

Eyron

Edderion the Bridegroom

Walton the Moon King

Brandon the Bad

Jonos

Jorah

Theon the Hungry Wolf

Brandon the Shipwright

Brandon the Burner

Rodrik (won Bear Island)

Torrhen, the King Who Knelt

Robb, the Young Wolf

 

unknown placement:

Dorren (ruled when the NW fought giants and traded with COTF, so probably ancient)

Brandon IX (broke the Skagosi)

Harlon (defeated Boltons hundreds of years ago)

Edwyn the Spring King (before or after Rodrik)

Hi Nittanian

Thanks for your reply. This is a topic I have had a lot of interest in, and would love the Wiki to update. The first Bran chapter you reference has the clearest chronology. In that one, Theon Stark is the intermediate King between Rickard Stark who conquered the Neck and Brandon the Shipwright. We must of course remember that Bran is just picking out random Kings, and is clearly skipping a heck of a lot of them inbetween some named Kings.

If we consider that Jon Stark built the Wolf's Den centuries before the Andal invasion started, and that Theon Stark lived after the Vale had already been ruled by the Andal Arryns for centuries, then it is clear that more than a thousand years seperate Jon Stark and Theon Stark.

At the same time, we know that Theon Stark lived close to 2000 years ago, if he led the Rape of the Three Sisters. Even if he didn't lead the Rape of the Three Sisters, he clearly lived during the height of the Andal invasion, which was millenia ago. So clearly, the 2nd Bran chapter, where he places Theon quite close behind Torhenn Stark's time, is a clear error on Martin's part. Theon the Hungry Wolf (the original one) lived much earlier than that. Maybe there were more Theons. Some even named the Hungry Wolf too, for all we know.

Another point that proves the recent placing of Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner, is that Manderly says the North hadn't had a fleet since Brandon the Burner burned his father's ships. Well, we know Theon had a fleet. He built it himself, and it was a large one, given that he invaded Andalos, the Three Sisters and the Fingers with it. So Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner had to have lived after him.

In fact, if Theon indeed conducted the Rape of the Three Sisters 2000 years ago, and if the War Across the Water indeed continued for 1000 years after that, then the North must have had a fleet throughout this war. So that puts Brandon the Shipwright and his son more recently than 1000 years ago. Meaning AFTER the Manderly arrival. Which would make sense, given that Manderly's reference to them not having a fleet since Brandon the Burner strongly implied that this burning happened AFTER the Manderlys had settled in the North.

Next, we have Ser Bartimus's history of the Wolfsden which seems to follow a chronological order. And in his chronology, it goes as follows:

Jon Stark builds the Wolf's Den - Jon Stark and his son Rickard can be placed here

The Greystark rebellion happens centuries/millenia later

Various lords hold the Wolfsden for more centuries

Then Reavers from the Sisters capture it (which presumably leads to the Rape of the Three Sisters around 2000 years ago) Theon Stark can be placed here

Then the War Across the Water breaks out (leading nicely from the preceding event above)

Then Edrick Snowbeard grows too feeble to defend his realm and Brandon Ice Eyes his grandson/great grandson hangs Slaver entrails form the Wolfsden Hearttree (Edrick Snowbeard and Brandon Ice Eyes can be placed here)

Then the Manderlys arrive 1000 years ago

And based on the earlier points above, Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner can be placed some centuries after the Manderly arrival.

So it seems pretty clear that the order of Kings has to go:

Jon Stark -circa 4000 years ago

Rickard Stark, his son

Theon Stark - circa 2000 years ago

Edric Snowbeard - circa 1500 years ago

Brandon Ice Eyes, his grandson/great grandson, can't quite remember which

The Manderlys arrive 1000 years ago

Brandon the Shipwright - circa 600 years ago

Brandon the Burner, his son

Torhenn Stark - 300 years ago.

The less noteworthy kings inbetween will probably go according to Bran's original chapter. But I can't quite recall their names. Moonkings, Bridegrooms, the Good the Bad and the Ugly etc.

 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Nittanian said:

If you notice inaccuracies please bring them to our attention in the wiki forum! We can update the King in the North article, but what do you think is the best listing? @Rhaenys_Targaryen, any thoughts?

Well, we know roughly when the Andal Invasion was occuring. Urron Redhand lived "five thousand years ago", placing the establishment of is rule circa 4700 BC. His line ruled for a thousand years until the Andals arrived at the Iron Islands and ended the reign of his descendants (so circa. 3700 BC). 

The Wolf's Den was build by Jon Stark before the Andals came to the north, though we do not know when the Andals first came north, IIRC.

Rogar Bolton kneeled to the King of Winter when the Andals were first arriving, so ~4700 BC. However, according to Theon, it happened "a thousand years ago".

The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past, certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that had stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell. Or so they say, but old ways die hard, as well I know.

According to Theon's quote, this would place Rogar Bolton kneeling to the King of Winter near 700 BC. I have more faith in Yandel's historical sources on this matter, than on Theon's recollection, so I am going to assume that Theon is being imprecise here.

 

The Rape of the Sisters occured 2000 years ago

The maesters say the Rape of the Three Sisters was two thousand years ago, but Sisterton has not forgotten. 

I take this to mean that the war ended two thousand years ago, and as it lasted a thousand, according to Yandel, the start of this war would have been near ~2700 BC.

While I'm not sure if we can use the fact that Theon once conquered the Three Sisters as proof that he lived during this war and was the leader of one of the three times the Starks landed on the Fingers, it certainly is possible that it refers to this war. If so, Theon would have lived between  ~2700 BC and ~1700 BC (the duration of the war). 

 

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Another point that proves the recent placing of Brandon the Shipwright and his son the Burner, is that Manderly says the North hadn't had a fleet since Brandon the Burner burned his father's ships. Well, we know Theon had a fleet. He built it himself, and it was a large one, given that he invaded Andalos, the Three Sisters and the Fingers with it. So Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner had to have lived after him.

I completely agree with this point. And this fits with the list from AGOT Bran VII.

 

(BTW, the Manderly's arrived a thousand years before the Conquest, i.e., 1000 BC.)

 

So, I would think that Jon Stark should be moved up. It is difficult to say how high, as we know so little of several of these Stark Kings. I think switching Theon Stark and Jon Stark (and his son Rickard), is a good idea, so at least their order is correct.

We know that Lord Karlon Stark lived ~700 BC (was granted Karhold "a thousand years ago"), so Theon Stark should definitly be placed above him on the list, given that he might have lived between ~2700 BC and ~1700 BC, or even earlier). Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner should be moved as well (as they lived after Theon due to the loss of a northern fleet after the two Brandons'), but I would suggest moving them down a bit further. While I wouldn't call it a 100% certain, it might indeed even be that the Manderly's arrived from the Reach before the time of Brandon the Burner. Manderly states that it has been "hundreds of years" (implying it has been less than a thousand years?) since the north had strength at sea, and if the Manderly's indeed arrived before the northern fleet was set afire, that would mean that Brandon the Shipright and Brandon the Burner lived after 1000 BC. So I think it would be a good idea, based on the fact that the Manderly's arrived around ~1000 BC, Lord Karlon lived ~700 BC, and Manderly refers to the lack of a fleet as "hundreds of years", to move Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner to either just above or just below Lord Harlan Stark.

[Free Northman Reborn]

23 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Well, we know roughly when the Andal Invasion was occuring. Urron Redhand lived "five thousand years ago", placing the establishment of is rule circa 4700 BC. His line ruled for a thousand years until the Andals arrived at the Iron Islands and ended the reign of his descendants (so circa. 3700 BC). 

The Wolf's Den was build by Jon Stark before the Andals came to the north, though we do not know when the Andals first came north, IIRC.

Rogar Bolton kneeled to the King of Winter when the Andals were first arriving, so ~4700 BC. However, according to Theon, it happened "a thousand years ago".

The flayed man was the sigil of House Bolton, Theon knew; ages past, certain of their lords had gone so far as to cloak themselves in the skins of dead enemies. A number of Starks had ended thus. Supposedly all that had stopped a thousand years ago, when the Boltons had bent their knees to Winterfell. Or so they say, but old ways die hard, as well I know.

According to Theon's quote, this would place Rogar Bolton kneeling to the King of Winter near 700 BC. I have more faith in Yandel's historical sources on this matter, than on Theon's recollection, so I am going to assume that Theon is being imprecise here.

 

The Rape of the Sisters occured 2000 years ago

The maesters say the Rape of the Three Sisters was two thousand years ago, but Sisterton has not forgotten. 

I take this to mean that the war ended two thousand years ago, and as it lasted a thousand, according to Yandel, the start of this war would have been near ~2700 BC.

While I'm not sure if we can use the fact that Theon once conquered the Three Sisters as proof that he lived during this war and was the leader of one of the three times the Starks landed on the Fingers, it certainly is possible that it refers to this war. If so, Theon would have lived between  ~2700 BC and ~1700 BC (the duration of the war). 

 

I completely agree with this point. And fitting with AGOT Bran VII.

 

(BTW, the Manderly's arrived a thousand years before the Conquest, i.e., 1000 BC.)

 

So, I would think that Jon Stark should be moved up. It is difficult to say how high, as we know so little of several of these Stark Kings. We know that Lord Karlon Stark lived ~700 BC (was granted Karhold "a thousand years ago"), so Theon Stark should definitly be placed above him on the list. Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner should be moved with him (as they lived after Theon due to the loss of a northern fleet after the two Brandons'). While I wouldn't call it a 100% certain, it might indeed even be that the Manderly's arrived from the Reach before the time of Brandon the Burner. Manderly states that it has been "hundreds of years" (meaning less than a thousand?) since the north had strength at sea, and if the Manderly's indeed arrived before the northern fleet was set afire, that would mean that Brandon the Shipright and Brandon the Burner lived after 1000 BC.

 

So I think moving switching Theon Stark and Jon Stark (and his son Rickard), so at least their order is correct, and placing Brandon the Shipwright and Brandon the Burner either before or after Lord Harlon Stark (~700 BC), due to Manderly's phrasing of "hundreds of years". 

Leaving aside the likely exxagerated antiquity of the Andal invasion in the Urron Redhand legend, what is clearly incorrect above is the dating of the War Across the Water. The Rape of the Three Sisters did not end that war. It started it. The records are pretty clear on that. It was as a result of the Rape of the Sisters that the Sistermen had to bow to the Vale, which brought them into the conflict, starting the 1000 year long war.

So since the Rape took place 2000 years ago, according to the Maesters, the War Across the Water would then have taken place from 2000 years to 1000 years ago.

And since Ser Bartimus's tale follows a very clear chronology, it pretty clearly places the existence of Edrick Snowbeard and Brandon Ice Eyes after the Rape of the Three Sisters, and just before the arrival of the Manderlys. So Edrick and Brandon Ice Eyes need to move to after Theon Stark, but before Brandon the Shipwright.

As for Theon and the Rape. Since Theon had to build a fleet before he could invade Andalos, it appears that the North did not have a fleet before he did so, so it would seem that they could not have conquered the Three Sisters before his time. Similarly, the fact that he landed in the Fingers shortly thereafter makes it clear that this must have been part of the War Across the Water.

Also, the Rape of the Sisters is presented as the first invasion of the Sisters by the Northmen, after they had grown tired of their Reaving. So Theon's conquest of the Sisters must either have been this original invasion, or a subsequent one. However, if Theon was not the Stark who led this "Rape", but in fact led a subsequent conquest of the Sisters instead, then it means he lived more recently than 2000 years ago. Which becomes problematic from an Andal invasion point of view, as we know Theon lived during the height of the Andal invasion. The greatest Andal invasion of the North in fact occurred during his lifetime.

So it makes sense to push his existence back as far as possible. Meaning that the very first invasion of the Sisters must then be associated with him. And that happened 2000 years ago.

So we have;

Jon Stark - millenia ago

Rickard Stark, his son who conquered the Neck

Theon Stark - 2000 years ago at the most, as that is the date of the first conquest of the Three Sisters and the start of the War Across the Water

Edrick Snowbeard

Brandon Ice Eyes

Manderlys arrive between 900 and 1300 years ago, depending on the source.

Brandon the Shipwright maybe 600 years ago

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Leaving aside the likely exxagerated antiquity of the Andal invasion in the Urron Redhand legend, what is clearly incorrect above is the dating of the War Across the Water. The Rape of the Three Sisters did not end that war. It started it. The records are pretty clear on that. It was as a result of the Rape of the Sisters that the Sistermen had to bow to the Vale, which brought them into the conflict, starting the 1000 year long war.

So since the Rape took place 2000 years ago, according to the Maesters, the War Across the Water would then have taken place from 2000 years to 1000 years ago.

Ah, sorry, I thought that the Rape of the Three Sisters was the name for the entire war. My mistake!

In that case, yes, the war lasted from ~1700 BC until ~700 BC

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And since Ser Bartimus's tale follows a very clear chronology, it pretty clearly places the existence of Edrick Snowbeard and Brandon Ice Eyes after the Rape of the Three Sisters, and just before the arrival of the Manderlys. So Edrick and Brandon Ice Eyes need to move to after Theon Stark, but before Brandon the Shipwright.

I had only been looking at Theon, Jon, and the two Brandons (Shipwright and the Burner) which is why I didn't mention Edrick and Brandon. But I agree that they should be after Theon and before the Shipwright.

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Theon and the Rape. Since Theon had to build a fleet before he could invade Andalos, it appears that the North did not have a fleet before he did so, so it would seem that they could not have conquered the Three Sisters before his time. Similarly, the fact that he landed in the Fingers shortly thereafter makes it clear that this must have been part of the War Across the Water.

Fleets can be destroyed during battle. Especially during a thousand year war which is being fought over islands. So certainly, the Three Sisters could have been conquered before Theon's day. And subsequently have been lost. That Theon had to build a (new) fleet says little about which conquest this was.

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Also, the Rape of the Sisters is presented as the first invasion of the Sisters by the Northmen, after they had grown tired of their Reaving. So Theon's conquest of the Sisters must either have been this original invasion, or a subsequent one. However, if Theon was not the Stark who led this "Rape", but in fact led a subsequent conquest of the Sisters instead, then it means he lived more recently than 2000 years ago. Which becomes problematic from an Andal invasion point of view, as we know Theon lived during the height of the Andal invasion. The greatest Andal invasion of the North in fact occurred during his lifetime.

Do you have a quote that states that the Rape was the first invasion of the Sisters by the northmen, ever? Isn't it technically speaking possible that one or two Kings of Winter had tried to do so before, but lost the Sisters relatively soon thereafter?

I agree that Theon is more likely to have lived near the start of this war (if indeed he lived during this war) than towards its end.

 

[Nittanian]

4 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Ah, sorry, I thought that the Rape of the Three Sisters was the name for the entire war. My mistake!

 

To clarify, the Rape of the Three Sisters which occurred two thousand years ago was the invasion of the islands by northmen in response to reaving. The Sistermen sought help from the Arryns, beginning a thousand years of warfare called the War Across the Water (or Worthless War).

 

So, a possible list of Stark kings:

ancient kings:

Bran the Builder

Brandon the Breaker

possibly Dorren (contemporaneous with giants and COTF)

 

roughly Andal era

*Jon, built the Wolf's Den before the Andals

*Rickard , Jon's son, took the Neck

*Theon the Hungry Wolf, fended off the great Andal warlordArgos Sevenstar, conquered the Three Sisters, and invaded the Fingers

*Edrick Snowbeard, after the Stark/Arryn wars, he lost the Wolf's Den to Stepstones slavers and was also threatened by Boltons. These Boltons were presumably rebel lords instead of Red Kings, since the Boltons had already submitted to the Starks by the time Andals began attacking the north.

*Brandon "Ice Eyes", Edrick's great-grandson, retook the Wolf's Den from slavers

 

more recent centuries

*Brandon the Shipwright

*Brandon the Burner

*Torrhen, the King Who Knelt

*Robb, the Young Wolf

 

unknown

*Rodrik - won Bear Island in a wrestling match and is listed in-between the Burner and Torrhen in AGOT. TWOIAF states Rodrik reclaimed Bear Island after the death of the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy. AFFC The Prophet states the Old Kraken was chosen in a kingsmoot, and therefore a High King of the Iron Islands from before the Greyiron dynasty. GRRM has indicated that the novels take precedence over the world book.

*Harlon, presumably a king, besieged the Dreadfort for two years centuries ago.

*Karlon, a younger son and not a king, built Karhold after defeating rebels—presumably Boltons—a thousand years ago. He is a different person than Harlon, unless there was a spelling mistake/change between ASOS and ADWD.

*Brandon IX - broke the Skagosi

 

unknown and mentioned in ACOK Bran VII

*Edwyn the Spring King (mentioned between Torrhen and Theon)

*Jorah

*Jonos

*Brandon the Bad

*Walton the Moon King

*Edderion the Bridegroom

*Eyron

*Benjen the Sweet

*Benjen the Bitter

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

*Karlon, a younger son and not a king, built Karhold after defeating rebels—presumably Boltons—a thousand years ago. He is a different person than Harlon, unless there was a spelling mistake/change between ASOS and ADWD.

 

That was a typo from me at the end of my post (now corrected). I referred to him correctly as Karlon at the start of the paragraph.

So since Karlon is given a date, I wouldn't call him "unknown".

7 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

 

To clarify, the Rape of the Three Sisters which occurred two thousand years ago was the invasion of the islands by northmen in response to reaving. The Sistermen sought help from the Arryns, beginning a thousand years of warfare called the War Across the Water (or Worthless War).

Yeah, I was completely misremembering this! Sorry!

7 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

So, a possible list of Stark kings:

ancient kings:

Bran the Builder

Brandon the Breaker

possibly Dorren (contemporaneous with giants and COTF)

 

roughly Andal era

*Jon, built the Wolf's Den before the Andals

*Rickard , Jon's son, took the Neck

*Theon the Hungry Wolf, fended off the great Andal warlordArgos Sevenstar, conquered the Three Sisters, and invaded the Fingers

*Edrick Snowbeard, after the Stark/Arryn wars, he lost the Wolf's Den to Stepstones slavers and was also threatened by Boltons. These Boltons were presumably rebel lords instead of Red Kings, since the Boltons had already submitted to the Starks by the time Andals began attacking the north.

*Brandon "Ice Eyes", Edrick's great-grandson, retook the Wolf's Den from slavers

 

more recent centuries

*Brandon the Shipwright

*Brandon the Burner

*Torrhen, the King Who Knelt

*Robb, the Young Wolf

 

unknown

*Rodrik - won Bear Island in a wrestling match and is listed in-between the Burner and Torrhen in AGOT. TWOIAF states Rodrik reclaimed Bear Island after the death of the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy. AFFC The Prophet states the Old Kraken was chosen in a kingsmoot, and therefore a High King of the Iron Islands from before the Greyiron dynasty. GRRM has indicated that the novels take precedence over the world book.

*Harlon, presumably a king, besieged the Dreadfort for two years centuries ago.

*Karlon, a younger son and not a king, built Karhold after defeating rebels—presumably Boltons—a thousand years ago. He is a different person than Harlon, unless there was a spelling mistake/change between ASOS and ADWD.

*Brandon IX - broke the Skagosi

 

unknown and mentioned in ACOK Bran VII

*Edwyn the Spring King (mentioned between Torrhen and Theon)

*Jorah

*Jonos

*Brandon the Bad

*Walton the Moon King

*Edderion the Bridegroom

*Eyron

*Benjen the Sweet

*Benjen the Bitter

Perhaps this division is a way to proceed for the wiki, however. 

List in chronological order the kings that we do know a rough order for (the ones you list under "ancient kings", "Andal era", "more recent centuries", and Karlon), and the remainder in a list stating that for them their exact order and timing is unknown (though a note could be made stating that they are listed as closely as possible to the list Bran gives in ACOK).

[Lord Varys]

Just a quick deliberation on numbers:

The casual 'a thousand years ago' should not be taken literally. It is so often used just to signify that it happened a long time ago in the past. If historians (either Yandel or Gyldayn or anybody in the books) gives concrete numbers (and we have reason to believe they know what they are talking about) can we use those to date an event or a reign precisely.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

That was a typo from me at the end of my post (now corrected). I referred to him correctly as Karlon at the start of the paragraph.

So since Karlon is given a date, I wouldn't call him "unknown".

Yeah, I was completely misremembering this! Sorry!

Perhaps this division is a way to proceed for the wiki, however. 

List in chronological order the kings that we do know a rough order for (the ones you list under "ancient kings", "Andal era", "more recent centuries", and Karlon), and the remainder in a list stating that for them their exact order and timing is unknown (though a note could be made stating that they are listed as closely as possible to the list Bran gives in ACOK).

Just on Rodrik Stark's placing. He is shown quite close to Torhenn Stark's statue in the crypts. Closer than Brandon the Ship Burner in fact.

Also, if this places him at around 500 years ago, it would tie in with another nice little factoid. Namely the date when House Mormont received Longclaw. Since Rodrik gave Bear Island to the Mormonts, it would make sense that the acquisition of Longclaw would coincide with this elevation in status.

Either because they were awarded the sword for deeds of valour that also earned them Bear Island, or because Bear Island was in truth not won by wrestling match, but by conquest, with one of the leading theories being that a Mormont took Longclaw from the body of a dead Ironborn hero.

The discrepancy of course is the reference to Loren Greyjoy's kingsmoot. But this must almost certainly be a mistake, given the order of statues in the crypts and other evidence mentioned above.

[Free Northman Reborn]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just a quick deliberation on numbers:

The casual 'a thousand years ago' should not be taken literally. It is so often used just to signify that it happened a long time ago in the past. If historians (either Yandel or Gyldayn or anybody in the books) gives concrete numbers (and we have reason to believe they know what they are talking about) can we use those to date an event or a reign precisely.

I agree.

The Manderly arrival is a perfect example of this. The first reference we get to the establishment of White Harbor is early in the series, and it is said to have happened "a thousand years ago". I recall how much this perplexed me for many years, because in the first book Bran also says Jon Stark was the king who built a castle at White Harbor to protect the White Knife from raiders. I could not fathom how the 8000 year old Starks could only have secured the mouth of the White Knife 1000 years ago. Just like it always bothered me that the 8000 year old Starks only conquered the Boltons 1000 years ago.

My "concerns" were justified by the time of Dance, when Ser Bartimus clarified for us that Jon Stark's castle was not in fact White Harbor itself, but the much older Wolfsden, which is easily 4000 years old. Or more. We have no upper limit to its age, just a lower limit of around 3500 years, based on the quite detailed chronology we get surrounding events after its construction.

And similarly, the WOIAF then clarifies that the Boltons did not kneel for the first time 1000 years ago, that was just their last rebellion. They in fact knelt for the first time before the Andals arrived. Which again, made everything fit together a lot more coherently in terms of the North's backstory.

In any case, the timelines are meant to be rough. We don't know when the Manderlys precisely arrived. We know that the guys who have reason to see them as rivals - the Sistermen - try to disparagingly shorten their presence to a mere 900 years, while their own lore - which obviously tries to maximise the length of their presence - puts it at 1300 years. I'm happy to go with the original rough timespan, provided back in Book 1, which was 1000 years. I suspect we won't get anything more specific in this case.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Regarding the arrival of the Manderly's, IIRC there are three quotes. One by Rohanne from TSS (stating "a thousand"), one made by Wylla Manderly from ADWD ("a thousand years before the Conquest"), and one by Yandel ("some thousand years before the Conquest"). 

From these three, I would conclude that Rohanne was generalizing by stating "a thousand", but the fact that both Wylla and Yandel take the time to specify "before the Conquest", as well as the use of "some" by Yandel, implies imo that we are indeed talking about roughly 1000 years before the Conquest, i.e., ~1000 BC.

"As the river is called the Mander, though the Manderlys were driven from its banks a thousand years ago. 

 

It was not until some thousand years before the Conquest, when the fugitive Manderlys came to the North and swore their oaths at the Wolf's Den, that the problem of the defense of the White Knife—the river that provides access into the very heart of the North—was resolved with the creation of White Harbor.

 

"I know about the promise," insisted the girl. "Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. 

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

26 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Regarding the arrival of the Manderly's, IIRC there are three quotes. One by Rohanne from TSS (stating "a thousand"), one made by Wylla Manderly from ADWD ("a thousand years before the Conquest"), and one by Yandel ("some thousand years before the Conquest"). 

From these three, I would conclude that Rohanne was generalizing by stating "a thousand", but the fact that both Wylla and Yandel take the time to specify "before the Conquest", as well as the use of "some" by Yandel, implies imo that we are indeed talking about roughly 1000 years before the Conquest, i.e., ~1000 BC.

"As the river is called the Mander, though the Manderlys were driven from its banks a thousand years ago. 

 

It was not until some thousand years before the Conquest, when the fugitive Manderlys came to the North and swore their oaths at the Wolf's Den, that the problem of the defense of the White Knife—the river that provides access into the very heart of the North—was resolved with the creation of White Harbor.

 

"I know about the promise," insisted the girl. "Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. 

 

Personally I prefer the older date, yes. Meaning 1300 years ago.

However, there is a reference in Book 1 or Book 2 - from Maester Luwin possibly, or maybe from Bran recalling his history lessons, which also refers to the Manderlys building White Harbor 1000 years ago, (implying 700BC).

And then Lord Borrell from Sisterton tells Davos in Dance that the Manderlys arrived a mere 900 years ago. But he has reason to disparage their presence as "newcomers" because the Manderlys probably had quite a negative impact on the Sisters control of the Bite. So he is not without bias in the matter.

That's why there is some dispute over the date. However, 1300 years ago is the one that has my personal preference, as I said.

[direpupy]

7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Personally I prefer the older date, yes. Meaning 1300 years ago.

However, there is a reference in Book 1 or Book 2 - from Maester Luwin possibly, or maybe from Bran recalling his history lessons, which also refers to the Manderlys building White Harbor 1000 years ago, (implying 700BC).

And then Lord Borrell from Sisterton tells Davos in Dance that the Manderlys arrived a mere 900 years ago. But he has reason to disparage their presence as "newcomers" because the Manderlys probably had quite a negative impact on the Sisters control of the Bite. So he is not without bias in the matter.

That's why there is some dispute over the date. However, 1300 years ago is the one that has my personal preference, as I said.

Wel you don't build a city in one day so even if they arrived 1300 years ago and build they initial harbor and its defences then, they actual building of the city around it may have been gradual and the actual city walls on the land side may only have been finished about a 1000 years ago. Or perhaps the New Castle was finished then completing the transition from the Wolfs Den being the principal defensif structure to the Manderly build White Harbor no longer needing it do to the newly build defences.

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Wel you don't build a city in one day so even if they arrived 1300 years ago and build they initial harbor and its defences then, they actual building of the city around it may have been gradual and the actual city walls on the land side may only have been finished about a 1000 years ago.

I like that. Makes it all fit together.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

28 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Personally I prefer the older date, yes. Meaning 1300 years ago.

However, there is a reference in Book 1 or Book 2 - from Maester Luwin possibly, or maybe from Bran recalling his history lessons, which also refers to the Manderlys building White Harbor 1000 years ago, (implying 700BC).

And then Lord Borrell from Sisterton tells Davos in Dance that the Manderlys arrived a mere 900 years ago. But he has reason to disparage their presence as "newcomers" because the Manderlys probably had quite a negative impact on the Sisters control of the Bite. So he is not without bias in the matter.

That's why there is some dispute over the date. However, 1300 years ago is the one that has my personal preference, as I said.

I can't find the Bran-quote this quickly, but I did find the quote by Lord Borrell. Interesting. He's being rather precise, but he would differ 400 years with the account given by the Manderly's themselves. 

As well, the Manderly-quote, Yandel-quote, and Borrell-quote all refer to the moment the Manderly's came north, not the moment White Harbor was build. So if the Bran-quote refers to the rise of the city (again, I couldn't find it this quickly, so I'm not entirely sure about the exact phrasing), the others alone given enough discrepancy on the arrival date of the Manderly's.

 

Edit:

How do you feel about the proposed solution for the wiki?

11 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

List in chronological order the kings that we do know a rough order for (the ones you list under "ancient kings", "Andal era", "more recent centuries", and Karlon), and the remainder in a list stating that for them their exact order and timing is unknown (though a note could be made stating that they are listed as closely as possible to the list Bran gives in ACOK).

 

[Lord Varys]

I'd prefer the Borrell quote there because it is the most precise while Wylla and Yandel are more generalizing. Lord Borrell seemed to be an educated and interested man while Wylla might still be too young to care all that much about such details. She was not trying to debate a historical topic, after all.

But we see this in many other instances when events in the past are discussed. Catelyn dating Alyssa Arryn's lifetime six thousand years ago is most likely wrong despite the fact that it is rather precise. And Arianne stating that there were still Children of the Forest in those caves a thousand years ago, or that there were still Mudds a thousand years ago in the Riverlands simply is not likely to be true.

I'm also not sure that we have to interconnect Theon Stark and the first attack of the Andals and the beginning of the war with the Vale. I doubt the Andals targeted the North early on in their migrating days. It was cold and pretty far away in comparison to the Vale, the Riverlands, and the Stormlands.

There is no reason to believe that the Starks united the North decades or even centuries before the reign of Theon Stark simply because Yandel is talking about the first Andals crossing the Narrow in their longships by the time the last Bolton king submitted. That doesn't mean those first Andal ships actually attacked the North. It might have been the first Andals to settle in the Vale or even the first Andals to raid the coasts of Westeros without the intention to settle there yet.

That way the chronology gets much broader and much more confusing which I prefer.

The idea that the Hungry Wolf could take on everybody at once so shortly after uniting the North and subduing the Boltons is not very convincing to me.

[direpupy]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd prefer the Borrell quote there because it is the most precise while Wylla and Yandel are more generalizing. Lord Borrell seemed to be an educated and interested man while Wylla might still be too young to care all that much about such details. She was not trying to debate a historical topic, after all.

But we see this in many other instances when events in the past are discussed. Catelyn dating Alyssa Arryn's lifetime six thousand years ago is most likely wrong despite the fact that it is rather precise. And Arianne stating that there were still Children of the Forest in those caves a thousand years ago, or that there were still Mudds a thousand years ago in the Riverlands simply is not likely to be true.

I'm also not sure that we have to interconnect Theon Stark and the first attack of the Andals and the beginning of the war with the Vale. I doubt the Andals targeted the North early on in their migrating days. It was cold and pretty far away in comparison to the Vale, the Riverlands, and the Stormlands.

There is no reason to believe that the Starks united the North decades or even centuries before the reign of Theon Stark simply because Yandel is talking about the first Andals crossing the Narrow in their longships by the time the last Bolton king submitted. That doesn't mean those first Andal ships actually attacked the North. It might have been the first Andals to settle in the Vale or even the first Andals to raid the coasts of Westeros without the intention to settle there yet.

That way the chronology gets much broader and much more confusing which I prefer.

The idea that the Hungry Wolf could take on everybody at once so shortly after uniting the North and subduing the Boltons is not very convincing to me.

I don't think Argos sevenstar was the first Andal to attack the North, like Free Northman Reorn has said he is called the greatest treat, not the first not the last, the greatest. So there does seem to be some time between the unification of the North and the time of Theon perhaps as much as a few century's.

As to the war with the Vale this is most certainly century's after the Andals first started coming to the Vale, because King Mathos Arryn who the sistermen asked for help was already living in the Eyrie and the construction of the Eyrie was only finished under the twelfth Arryn king. So the Arryns must have been ruling the Vale for between 250~300 years and with the conquest of the Vale taking at least 4 generations if not more the first Andals crossing the Narrow Sea is at least 400 years before the Rape of the Three Sisters, and possibly longer depending on how many kings there are between Mathos and the twelfth Arryn king.

[Free Northman Reborn]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd prefer the Borrell quote there because it is the most precise while Wylla and Yandel are more generalizing. Lord Borrell seemed to be an educated and interested man while Wylla might still be too young to care all that much about such details. She was not trying to debate a historical topic, after all.

But we see this in many other instances when events in the past are discussed. Catelyn dating Alyssa Arryn's lifetime six thousand years ago is most likely wrong despite the fact that it is rather precise. And Arianne stating that there were still Children of the Forest in those caves a thousand years ago, or that there were still Mudds a thousand years ago in the Riverlands simply is not likely to be true.

I'm also not sure that we have to interconnect Theon Stark and the first attack of the Andals and the beginning of the war with the Vale. I doubt the Andals targeted the North early on in their migrating days. It was cold and pretty far away in comparison to the Vale, the Riverlands, and the Stormlands.

There is no reason to believe that the Starks united the North decades or even centuries before the reign of Theon Stark simply because Yandel is talking about the first Andals crossing the Narrow in their longships by the time the last Bolton king submitted. That doesn't mean those first Andal ships actually attacked the North. It might have been the first Andals to settle in the Vale or even the first Andals to raid the coasts of Westeros without the intention to settle there yet.

That way the chronology gets much broader and much more confusing which I prefer.

The idea that the Hungry Wolf could take on everybody at once so shortly after uniting the North and subduing the Boltons is not very convincing to me.

The bolded section in your post above refers. It is self contradictory.

The very fact that the first Andals crossed the Narrow Sea long before Argos Sevenstar invaded the North, validates the idea that the Starks united the North many centuries before Theon's time.

As Direpuppy says, by the time of the Rape of the Three Sisters,  the Arryns had been ruling the Vale for centuries, placing this  event centuries after the first Andal crossings. So Theon HAD to have lived long after the Boltons first bent the knee. Yandel after all states that the Boltons knelt just as the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea, not as the first Andals arrived in the North. Either way, the first Andals would have arrived in the North long before Argos Sevenstar.  They likely landed all over the Westerosi east coast. The histories said as much.

If I recall, Yandel said that the Andals tried to invade  the North just like they tried to invade the South, but were repelled by the Northmen.

So Theon clearly lived centuries after the unification of the North.

As for the Borrell quote, is it more valid than that of a Maester? If it was just Wylla Manderly, then I would say both are biased to either under or overstate the length of the Manderlys' presence in the North. But since the WOIAF also says 1300 years ago, I tend to side with the 1300 years ago date.