why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Oh, and just for reference so that I don't have to repost them all the time, all quotes concerning the legitimacy of Renly's claim: 

Only Olenna says he does not have a claim, though in the same conversation she points out that Mace supported him because of his claim. Neither Edmure or Robb say that Renly, the brother of the King, has no claim. They point out that he is jumping the queue. 

I think you are confusing being an heir with having a claim. There can be multiple claimants to the Throne, some with better claims than others. 

Quote

At this council, nine lesser claimants were heard and dismissed, leaving only two primary claimants to the throne: Laenor Velaryon, son of Princess Rhaenys—who was the eldest daughter of Jaehaerys's eldest son, Aemon—and Prince Viserys, eldest son of Baelon the Brave and Princess Alyssa.

Renly, as brother to the King, has a clear claim.

[Darkstream]

29 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he did not. He claimed that he was King and their nephes were bastards. Nothing more. 

Uh yeah, what did you think I was referring to? Those are his accusations.

Quote

Of Stannis' letter? Yes, he was aware of the tale Stannis was telling the realm.He was also aware of the story of Patchface cuckolding Stannis. One is as believable as the other. 

Really? I think not. Renly knows the truth of the matter. Do you think he's an idiot? You don't think he's aware of Jaimie and Cercei's relationship?

He just doesn't care.

Quote

Yes. In his mind he failed in his duty to Joffrey, not Stannis. 

 

Either way, his claim is weaker than Stannis'. 

Even if Joff is legit, Stannis come before Renly in the line of succession.

[John Doe]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Only Olenna says he does not have a claim, though in the same conversation she points out that Mace supported him because of his claim. Neither Edmure or Robb say that Renly, the brother of the King, has no claim. They point out that he is jumping the queue. 

I think you are confusing being an heir with having a claim. There can be multiple claimants to the Throne, some with better claims than others. 

Renly, as brother to the King, has a clear claim.

Either way, his claim is weaker than Stannis, so your argument does not excuse his actions against him. You can't jump the queue and not expect retribution from the people further ahead. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

Uh yeah, what did you think I was referring to? Those are his accusations.

I have no idea which point you replied to here. Sorry. 

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

Really? I think not. Renly knows the truth of the matter. Do you think he's an idiot? You don't think he's aware of Jaimie and Cercei's relationship?

He claims that he does not and when Robert was on his deathbed and he tells Ned that they are in danger if Cersei gets power he fails to bring it up. 

Renly claims to not know and his actions of wanting to crown Joffrey as a puppet King with Ned as Regent back this up. 

 

In fact there is no reason for Renly as usurping Robert's children and Stannis is much worse than just usurping Stannis. 

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

 

Either way, his claim is weaker than Stannis'. 

Who claimed otherwise in this thread? Certainly not I. 

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

Even if Joff is legit, Stannis come before Renly in the line of succession.

Which I have pointed out multiple times in this thread. Thanks for finally getting it. 

 

4 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Either way, his claim is weaker than Stannis, so your argument does not excuse his actions against him. You can't jump the queue and not expect retribution from the people in front of you.

Stannis attacked Renly first. Stannis is the attacker. Had Tommen landed on Dragonstone and started cutting down Stannis' forests to build siege weapons to attack Dragonstone then Tommen would have struck first. 

Stannis instigated the attack. 

[Darkstream]

10 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Change all the times we used the word claim to whatever you want, who fucking cares, the context provides the meaning. Jesus christ.

And why would I do that? If you say Renly has the better claim, I'm going to dispute your argument based on what you say.

Say what you mean. Jesus Christ.

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

And why would I do that? If you say Renly has the better claim, I'm going to dispute your argument based on what you say.

Say what you mean. Jesus Christ.

Can you quote people in this thread who have actually said that Renly has the better claim? People have said that he has a claim (which he does) and that he more support (which he did) and had more chance of succeeding. I don't recall anyone saying he has a superior claim to Stannis. 

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can you quote people in this thread who have actually said that Renly has the better claim? People have said that he has a claim (which he does) and that he more support (which he did) and had more chance of succeeding. I don't recall anyone saying he has a superior claim to Stannis. 

I'm sure I could, however I'm not going to waste my time going through the previous posts.

Then what are you arguing? Can you quote people denying what you've just stated?

[Lord Varys]

45 minutes ago, John Doe said:

That's because your points (with some I agree, with some I disagree) don't really adress the debate of who was justified in their conflict, Renly or Stannis, which is as I understand the central question of this thread.  No matter how convincing you find the evidence of Robert's children being bastards, that does not justify Renly crowning himself before him.

Neither is justified. Joffrey was the Heir Apparent and the legal son of his father, King Robert. Renly intended to kill the rightful king and two siblings, and Stannis did the same thing. And both were perfectly fine with killing each other.

And younger siblings sure as hell have claims, too. But insisting that your claim is worth more than your brother's even if you as unpopular as Stannis when you also have actually helped your older brother to steal a throne over the dead bodies of innocent children (your own cousins) the man had no right to is just not exactly something anybody should take seriously.

That's how Stannis sounds if you break the man down:

'Brother Robert stole himself a throne, sinning against gods and men in the process. But now he is an anointed king, too, and since he left no trueborn children (in my opinion) I now claim his throne by right of primogeniture. Nobody is supposed to ignore or suspend the law that I, Stannis Baratheon, lay claim to the throne. It was perfectly well and good when my brother Robert stole himself a crown but my brother Renly is now not allowed to repeat that thing. No. That's cheating. I want my throne because it is the law.'

Is that how an honest man sounds?

What claim did Robert have to the Iron Throne? And how hypocritical is it to insist on 'the law' if the king you want to succeed is the usurper Robert Baratheon? Renly was more honest than Stannis in that regard. Stannis can't even openly admit that he wants the throne.

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Darkstream said:

Then what are you arguing? Can you quote people denying what you've just stated?

lol Read the thread and people's actual posts if you want to understand what the discussion is about rather than getting angry with what you think people have said.

 

If you are confused about anything I have posted, please quote it and I will gladly explain it to you. 

 

 

[Darkstream]

As far as I've seen, nobody is making the claim that Renly has a claim based on his actual claim; they are making a false assertion, by claiming he has a better claim, because he has an army. That's just factually incorrect, according to what a claim actually is.

[Darkstream]

2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

lol Read the thread and people's actual posts if you want to understand what the discussion is about rather than getting angry with what you think people have said.

 

If you are confused about anything I have posted, please quote it and I will gladly explain it to you. 

 

 

Who's angry? Who's confused? Not I.

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, Darkstream said:

As far as I've seen, nobody is making the claim that Renly has a claim based on his actual claim;

I have made that very point, so you are wrong. 

Just now, Darkstream said:

 

they are making a false assertion, by claiming he has a better claim, because he has an army. That's just factually incorrect, according to what a claim actually is.

It is not an either/or situation. Renly can both have a claim and a superior shot at getting the Crown thanks to the large amount of support he has. 

Renly has a claim, like Robert did, he also had more support in Westeos than any other of the Five Kings. 

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

As far as I've seen, nobody is making the claim that Renly has a claim based on his actual claim; they are making a false assertion, by claiming he has a better claim, because he has an army. That's just factually incorrect, according to what a claim actually is.

An army means popular support. Do you think Laenor Velaryon had the better claim despite the fact that Prince Viserys won the support of the lords at the Great Council (another measure of popular support) 20:1 against Laenor?

If a succession or kingship is contested then blood claims can (and usually) are important in Westeros. But they are not everything. Popular support counts, too, as does victory in battle and war if it comes to that. Daemon Blackfyre had a crappy blood claim (based on rumors, lies, and legitimization decrees) yet he would have been king had he won on the Redgrass Field and gotten around to kill Daeron II and all his sons and grandsons.

Renly has the worst blood claim of the Baratheons claiming the throne after Robert's death. But he still has a blood claim. And he has a lot of popular support, meaning that very few people actually care all that much about the strength of blood claims assuming you have a blood claim (which Renly did). And that tells us a lot about the importance of blood claims and or a proper line of succession (nobody cares about that).

Especially not with the Baratheons. Robert spat on all that when he stole the throne. He may have had a right to fight against Aerys and Rhaegar, but he had no right to ascend the throne over the dead bodies of Rhaegar's children nor had he any right to dismiss the claims of Viserys, Rhaella, and later Daenerys.

But if people can ignore all that, they can sure as hell ignore the claim of Stannis the Unpopular. And the claims of Cersei's brats. The Lannisters are nearly as unpopular in the Realm as Stannis is.

This isn't just true for the Baratheons, by the way. Who is Robb's heir right now? Technically Brandon, but nobody in the North wants a cripple as liege, meaning that Rickon has a much better chance at becoming Lord of Winterfell than Bran ever has.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, John Doe said:

Words of his own mouth aren't worth much when we see him lying about his strenght in the same book. But sure he expected him to side with him. That's why every other lord expected word from Stannis instead of from Renly, and that's why renly said this: 

and while Stannis has a reputation like this: 

If you think Renly was taken aback by all of this, he must have been stupid. And it doesn't fit what he's saying about his brother anyway,

Lying about his strength in the face of a man who attacked his holdings, wants to kill him (or him dead), and razed his forest is somehow the same as expecting a brother who protected him during wartime to join his overwhelming force?

Man I must have missed the chapters where Renly ordered a naval blockade of DS and sent a raven demanding he turn himself over for execution.

[Universal Sword Donor]

32 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Who's angry? Who's confused? Not I.

I'd dispute the confused aspect. Maybe failing to understand is a better turn of phrase. 

[Darkstream]

Alright, let's put it this way. For argument's sake, I'll accept the used meaning of 'claim' on this thread.

Stannis is alive and contending for the throne. Renly is dead. Despite Renly's support and huge ass army, Stannis still was more powerful and defeated Renly. 

So on both counts, legal, and by strength, Stannis had the stronger claim.

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Alright, let's put it this way. For argument's sake, I'll accept the used meaning of 'claim' on this thread.

Stannis is alive and contending for the throne. Renly is dead. Despite Renly's support and huge ass army, Stannis still was more powerful and defeated Renly. 

So on both counts, legal, and by strength, Stannis had the stronger claim.

Robert is dead along with Joffrey. I guess their claims are weaker as well. Amazing how that works out.

[Darkstream]

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I have made that very point, so you are wrong. 

Well Renly's claim on this basis is weaker than Stannis'. Nobody is denying that he has a claim, the question at hand is who has the stronger claim, so no, I'm not wrong.

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is not an either/or situation. Renly can both have a claim and a superior shot at getting the Crown thanks to the large amount of support he has. 

Sure, agreed.

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Renly has a claim, like Robert did, he also had more support in Westeos than any other of the Five Kings. 

Again, I agree.

[Darkstream]

11 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robert is dead along with Joffrey. I guess their claims are weaker as well. Amazing how that works out.

Hey, these are the rules you are making, not me.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

Hey, these are the rules you are making, not me.

Did I dictate the death vs life with respect to their claim? I do not believe I did.