Question for show watchers and book readers.

[snow is the man]

On 4/30/2017 at 3:40 PM, RevaM said:

how is show arya better???...They worsened her arc to a point where it makes 0% sense now...they turned her into a misogynistic psychopath....She has done wayyy more kindness in books and imho she is more humane in books

wait how is she more humane in the books? in the show the people she kills are either horrible or she needs to. Also what do you mean it makes zero sense. 

[snow is the man]

On 4/17/2017 at 8:50 PM, dsug said:

Hitler murdered 11 million people and was very efficient and strategic about it. Stalin was even worse. But that's not really the point.

Besides, you are making Ramsay out to be this rash, compulsive lunatic running around cackling like the Joker. He was cruel and sadistic, indeed, but he was also very calculating. Him killing Roose was a knee-jerk response, apparently, but even then, it was very efficient, and he strategically handled the aftermath when tying up the loose ends of Walda and his baby brother. 

Yes, he got pleasure from hurting people, but that wasn't the only aspect of his personality. He was also very cold and calculating, and had a good mind for military strategy. Even his cruelty towards Rickon was clearly a tactic to throw Jon off his game. 

Hitler and stalin are not good examples. Both did stupid things in tactical situations. That said throughout history there have been sadistic people who have been great strategist.  He enjoyed what he did and often used it to help his cause. the scene where he takes theon out in an "escape" was smart because he got real answers where as torture will often get people to say whatever you want just so the pain will end.  He did kill his father in what I think was impulsive but besides that I agree his decisions were very tactical. And psycopaths like ramsey who have an outlet can be great strategist. That said I don't think he would hold a candle to rob who destroyed the lannister armies whenever he fought them. But he was more then a psycho which made him dangerous

[crowcrow]

16 hours ago, snow is the man said:

wait how is she more humane in the books? in the show the people she kills are either horrible or she needs to. Also what do you mean it makes zero sense. 

first of all yes, she is way more humane in the books(and I'm assuming you have only watched the show):

• She has PTSD

•   She was a slave

•   And threatened with rape multiple times

•   Also beaten bloody

•   She used to play with lowborn kids in Winterfell

•   And talk with the smallfolk

•   And people loved her

•   She likes flowers

•   She is a polyglot

•   She knows a lot about poison

•   Because she had to taste it till her stomach hurt

•   She is too caring for her own good

•   She gave water to dying people

•   She dgaf about social status

•   She has low self-esteem

•   So much that she thought her family wouldn’t want her back

•   She is good at math

•   Also history

•   She is an extrovert

•   She makes friends with anybody

•   She has a strong pack sense

•   She’s an incredible warg and she doesn’t even know it

•   She’s good at climbing

•   She is an amazing rider

•   She never totally forgets who she is

•   No matter how many names she takes

•   The old gods are casually giving her pep talks 

•   She isn’t a psychopath

•   She was a war prisoner

•   Also a child soldier

•   She can cook

•   She has a strong sense of justice

•   JUSTICE

•   She could pretend she is a singing goat and you’d believe her, that’s how good she is at pretending to be things she is not

•   She cares about people who are suffering

•   She doesn’t like killing

•   She has nightmares about it

•   She likes songs

•   She is a girl, she acknowledges it and she is proud of it (UNLIKE OF THE SHITTY SHOW VERSION OF HER, WHERE SHE  OUTRIGHTLY SAYS THAT "ALL GIRLS ARE IDIOTS" AND THAT SHE IS A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE™)

•   she’s a powerful skinchanger+warg+she sees wolf dreams

•   she walked for miles and miles for days on end WITHOUT SHOES and learns to like it because she can feel the earth underfoot when she walked

•   she risks her life for others on a consistent basis

•   she is a leader in every sense of the word

•   she didn’t want anyone else dying for her, so she stepped up to armed Lannister men 

•   she takes to heart Ned’s lessons more than anyone else (getting to know the people fighting for you, doling out northern justice, hating those who would do her or her family harm, etc.) 

•   she suffers from depression

•   she’s witnessed rape, torture, and murder on many occasions

•   she wanted to save both of her parents but was prevented from doing so by others (Yoren and Sandor)

•   she thinks about and misses her family more than anyone else

•   she does not hate her sister: she wanted to make amends when they reunited, beg her pardons like a proper lady because she would like that

•   she idolizes women like Queen Nymeria, respects women like Lady Smallwood (basically you just have to be the tiniest bit decent to Arya to get her to like you, it’s not that hard) 

•   she comforts hot pie when he’s scared

•   she tries to comfort sansa when they’re told they have to leave Kings Landing

•   she’s compassionate and loyal (remember when she went back and risked her life to save Weasel?? when she wanted to free the northmen in Harrenhal because they were her father’s men, her men???) 

•   she’s both prideful and has low self-esteem from years of being called horseface and being told she wasn’t pretty (only her father and Jon Snow ever called her that)

((source:http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/104164269415/things-you-may-have-forgotten-about-arya-stark))

IMHO arya is very compassionate, loyal, sensitive and has a heart made of gold. She hides it bc she is scared that people will use her/take advantage of her. I also think she is completely underrated and is stereotyped by the fans as a "psychopath" and that the only valid ending for her is "death" :/

Also this:

“Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.”

i love, LOVE this scene so much bc its obvious how much needle means to arya. But D&D explains in an interview that the only reason why arya didn't want to throw needle away is bc of "revenge" and that needle=revenge, which is complete BULLSHIT and this quote just proves it. Its not about revenge. Needle, is the last remaining thing left from her home, its the only thing left from her family+the north+the real arya+jon snow. 

Also about Arya's arc, yeah it makes 0% sense. i just feel like they gave Arya a boring storyline in Braavos so that Sansa would have her "epic"(not) arc. How? by jeyne poole/sansa switch of course. 

Another thing that pissed me off is that her Bravoos storyline is super boring. and just less realistic. Arya, an apprentice who was part of the faceless gang for like several months SOMEHOW was able to kill the waif who was like part of it for 30+ years? NOT TO MENTION THAT SHE LITERALLY GOT STABBED MULTIPLE TIMES AND YET SOMEHOW SHE WAS ABLE TO KILL HER DEPITE THAT!!? I SWEAR TO GOD IF ARYA WAS ABLE TO WALK IT OFF AFTER GETTING STABBED THEN ROBB SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALIVE BY NOW!!! 

Also..lady crane? really? lady crane is literally what makes arya want to quit???LAMMmeee.

she also didnt learn any languages there???+some how D&D decided that arya's skinchanger/warg powers are not necessary??? and why on earth were the faceless men O.K with arya leaving/abandoning HoBaW???? AND How did Arya get to riverrun so fast???

 

 

[snow is the man]

6 hours ago, RevaM said:

first of all yes, she is way more humane in the books(and I'm assuming you have only watched the show):

• She has PTSD

•   She was a slave

•   And threatened with rape multiple times

•   Also beaten bloody

•   She used to play with lowborn kids in Winterfell

•   And talk with the smallfolk

•   And people loved her

•   She likes flowers

•   She is a polyglot

•   She knows a lot about poison

•   Because she had to taste it till her stomach hurt

•   She is too caring for her own good

•   She gave water to dying people

•   She dgaf about social status

•   She has low self-esteem

•   So much that she thought her family wouldn’t want her back

•   She is good at math

•   Also history

•   She is an extrovert

•   She makes friends with anybody

•   She has a strong pack sense

•   She’s an incredible warg and she doesn’t even know it

•   She’s good at climbing

•   She is an amazing rider

•   She never totally forgets who she is

•   No matter how many names she takes

•   The old gods are casually giving her pep talks 

•   She isn’t a psychopath

•   She was a war prisoner

•   Also a child soldier

•   She can cook

•   She has a strong sense of justice

•   JUSTICE

•   She could pretend she is a singing goat and you’d believe her, that’s how good she is at pretending to be things she is not

•   She cares about people who are suffering

•   She doesn’t like killing

•   She has nightmares about it

•   She likes songs

•   She is a girl, she acknowledges it and she is proud of it (UNLIKE OF THE SHITTY SHOW VERSION OF HER, WHERE SHE  OUTRIGHTLY SAYS THAT "ALL GIRLS ARE IDIOTS" AND THAT SHE IS A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE™)

•   she’s a powerful skinchanger+warg+she sees wolf dreams

•   she walked for miles and miles for days on end WITHOUT SHOES and learns to like it because she can feel the earth underfoot when she walked

•   she risks her life for others on a consistent basis

•   she is a leader in every sense of the word

•   she didn’t want anyone else dying for her, so she stepped up to armed Lannister men 

•   she takes to heart Ned’s lessons more than anyone else (getting to know the people fighting for you, doling out northern justice, hating those who would do her or her family harm, etc.) 

•   she suffers from depression

•   she’s witnessed rape, torture, and murder on many occasions

•   she wanted to save both of her parents but was prevented from doing so by others (Yoren and Sandor)

•   she thinks about and misses her family more than anyone else

•   she does not hate her sister: she wanted to make amends when they reunited, beg her pardons like a proper lady because she would like that

•   she idolizes women like Queen Nymeria, respects women like Lady Smallwood (basically you just have to be the tiniest bit decent to Arya to get her to like you, it’s not that hard) 

•   she comforts hot pie when he’s scared

•   she tries to comfort sansa when they’re told they have to leave Kings Landing

•   she’s compassionate and loyal (remember when she went back and risked her life to save Weasel?? when she wanted to free the northmen in Harrenhal because they were her father’s men, her men???) 

•   she’s both prideful and has low self-esteem from years of being called horseface and being told she wasn’t pretty (only her father and Jon Snow ever called her that)

((source:http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/104164269415/things-you-may-have-forgotten-about-arya-stark))

IMHO arya is very compassionate, loyal, sensitive and has a heart made of gold. She hides it bc she is scared that people will use her/take advantage of her. I also think she is completely underrated and is stereotyped by the fans as a "psychopath" and that the only valid ending for her is "death" :/

Also this:

“Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile. He used to mess my hair and call me "little sister," she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.”

i love, LOVE this scene so much bc its obvious how much needle means to arya. But D&D explains in an interview that the only reason why arya didn't want to throw needle away is bc of "revenge" and that needle=revenge, which is complete BULLSHIT and this quote just proves it. Its not about revenge. Needle, is the last remaining thing left from her home, its the only thing left from her family+the north+the real arya+jon snow. 

Also about Arya's arc, yeah it makes 0% sense. i just feel like they gave Arya a boring storyline in Braavos so that Sansa would have her "epic"(not) arc. How? by jeyne poole/sansa switch of course. 

Another thing that pissed me off is that her Bravoos storyline is super boring. and just less realistic. Arya, an apprentice who was part of the faceless gang for like several months SOMEHOW was able to kill the waif who was like part of it for 30+ years? NOT TO MENTION THAT SHE LITERALLY GOT STABBED MULTIPLE TIMES AND YET SOMEHOW SHE WAS ABLE TO KILL HER DEPITE THAT!!? I SWEAR TO GOD IF ARYA WAS ABLE TO WALK IT OFF AFTER GETTING STABBED THEN ROBB SHOULD HAVE BEEN ALIVE BY NOW!!! 

Also..lady crane? really? lady crane is literally what makes arya want to quit???LAMMmeee.

she also didnt learn any languages there???+some how D&D decided that arya's skinchanger/warg powers are not necessary??? and why on earth were the faceless men O.K with arya leaving/abandoning HoBaW???? AND How did Arya get to riverrun so fast???

 

 

she was a slave in the show too. and some of the things in the book couldn't be put in the show because they were what she was thinking. That bit about missing jon snow mussing her hair couldn't just be randomly said. And you don't have to talk down to me. I have read the books several times.

[crowcrow]

12 hours ago, snow is the man said:

she was a slave in the show too. and some of the things in the book couldn't be put in the show because they were what she was thinking. That bit about missing jon snow mussing her hair couldn't just be randomly said. And you don't have to talk down to me. I have read the books several times.

she didn't suffer the same way she did in the books. in the show she was a cupbearer of tywin and she ate his leftover foods which is more than book!arya could ever wish for. 

what do you mean some things couldn't be put in the show????couldnt they show that she has low self-esteem so we can relate???couldn't they show how she was threatened with rape several times?couldn't they show how much of a good leader she was??couldn't jon muss her hair back in winterfell for several time to let us know that its their thing??couldn't arya and jon remember each other fondly for several times at least?or couldn't she talk with gendry about her bastard brother and how much he reminded her of him, and couldn't jon talk with ygritte or about arya and how she reminded him of her???was a few lines of remembering each other to emphasise their relationship that hard for D&D?? was saying "all girls are idiots" easier for them???couldn't she learn several languages in HoBoW??couldn't her bravoos plotline make more sense???couldn't they show that she is a warg+a skin changer???was saying that "all girls are idiot" EVEN necessary??? 

When you say "some things couldn't be put in the show", you mean literally every single damn good quality Arya has. Literally the only thing that they did put in the show was that she was a "slave" and that is not even a quality. (note that her being a slave didn't last for long, right after twin came she became a cupbearer) every single point i have mentioned in my previous post didn't make it to the show. and that just proves how much D&D just doesn't give a fuck about arya as a character and how much they prefer sansa more bc for a petty reason as: sansa is prettier.

And talking down on you??? by the way you were talking i thought you haven't read the books, so sorry if i misinterpreted you. 

On May 8, 2017 at 8:21 AM, snow is the man said:

wait how is she more humane in the books? in the show the people she kills are either horrible or she needs to. Also what do you mean it makes zero sense

 

you're the one who said that show arya is better...i proved you that she is not. you also asked how is book arya more humane/kinder, i gave you all the proofs for that.

in the show she is just portrayed as some misogynistic psychopath. and i also explained why i think her plot makes 0% sense. you either didn't read the books several times as you claim you did, or you didn't read the books attentively to notice the details, or you just simply ignored everything i wrote.

Because show arya is NOT in any way BETTER than book arya and that is just a gospel truth.

[StepStark]

4 hours ago, RevaM said:

you either didn't read the books several times as you claim you did, or you didn't read the books attentively to notice the details, or you just simply ignored everything i wrote.

You Sir perfectly explained the background of D&D worshiping. Only people that didn't read the books attentively or didn't read at all, can say that any of the characters is "better" in the show (by "better" they usually mean "more screen time", which is partially true because some characters did get more time in the show than in the books, but NONE of those characters is actually better off because of it - quite the opposite, they were thrown from one inconsistency to another by D&D).

[RhaenysBee]

2 hours ago, StepStark said:

You Sir perfectly explained the background of D&D worshiping. Only people that didn't read the books attentively or didn't read at all, can say that any of the characters is "better" in the show (by "better" they usually mean "more screen time", which is partially true because some characters did get more time in the show than in the books, but NONE of those characters is actually better off because of it - quite the opposite, they were thrown from one inconsistency to another by D&D).

While this is hard to argue with, D&D didn't give certain characters more screentime to present their consistent and in depth psychological character profile, but to provide comic relief and let the actors / dynamic between actors shine. 

And yes, the writing of the show gets more atrocious every season, there's no doubt. And yes, it's baffling to hear people say seasons 6 was the best season so far when in fact it was the worst. But: bad plot > no plot. So as long as I don't have two novels falling into my lap, I must stand with D&D, who at least do their job, even if not particularly well. 

[crowcrow]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

You Sir perfectly explained the background of D&D worshiping. Only people that didn't read the books attentively or didn't read at all, can say that any of the characters is "better" in the show (by "better" they usually mean "more screen time", which is partially true because some characters did get more time in the show than in the books, but NONE of those characters is actually better off because of it - quite the opposite, they were thrown from one inconsistency to another by D&D).

I'm a lady actually.

[crowcrow]

Just now, RhaenysB said:

While this is hard to argue with, D&D didn't give certain characters more screentime to present their consistent and in depth psychological character profile, but to provide comic relief and let the actors / dynamic between actors shine. 

And yes, the writing of the show gets more atrocious every season, there's no doubt. And yes, it's baffling to hear people say seasons 6 was the best season so far when in fact it was the worst. But: bad plot > no plot. So as long as I don't have two novels falling into my lap, I must stand with D&D, who at least do their job, even if not particularly well. 

I understand where you and the other show supporters are coming from, and i agree that despite the show worsening by each season, it is still better than what grrm has given us so far: nothing.

But IMO, i personally would rather quit watching GoT altogether and find some other good shows (there are a lot of them: Stranger things, walking dead, sherlock and etc) to be obsessed with until TWOW and ADOS is out. And there is no way in gazillion years will i ever stand for D&D nor forgive them for screwing martin's characters so much. It must have not been easy to get an amazingly complex character like doran martell to be played by the fantastic alexander siddig and then somehow fuck him up so badly. I just can't bare D&D screwing up my faves like arya, jon, bran, sansa, and etc. if I list all the things that D&D did that screwed up the show in every sense of word & made it the way it is today, I don't think i would be done tomorrow.

if it means i have to wait for like 10+ yrs till grrm will publish his last 2 books, then be it. i'd rather occupy myself with my life, other tv shows (that is not GoT) & other book series till TWOW+ADOS gets published.

[RhaenysBee]

5 minutes ago, RevaM said:

I understand where you and the other show supporters are coming from, and i agree that despite the show worsening by each season, it is still better than what grrm has given us so far: nothing.

But IMO, i personally would rather quit watching GoT altogether and find some other good shows (there are a lot of them: Stranger things, walking dead, sherlock and etc) to be obsessed with until TWOW and ADOS is out. And there is no way in gazillion years will i ever stand for D&D nor forgive them for screwing martin's characters so much. It must have not been easy to get an amazingly complex character like doran martell to be played by the fantastic alexander siddig and then somehow fuck him up so badly. I just can't bare D&D screwing up my faves like arya, jon, sansa, and etc. if I list all the things that D&D did that screwed up the show in every sense of word & made it the way it is today, I don't think i would be done tomorrow.

if it means i have to wait for like 10+ yrs till grrm will publish his last 2 books, then be it. i'd rather occupy myself with my life, other tv shows (that is not GoT) & other book series till TWOW+ADOS gets published.

I understand that. I personally find it more unforgivable that a new novel hasn't been published for 6 years. And I only found this series in 2011 when the show came out. I can't imagine how someone who's been a reader from the start feels. I wouldn't call myself a show supporter, I mostly resent both the books and the show these days, I just don't think it's fair when people vigorously attack d&d and pretend that Martin is above criticism. D&D worked their ass off for a decade to bring a story to life and they did a decent enough job to make it the cult drama series of the 2010s in spite of all the screw ups, while Martin has been on paid vacation for 6 years and continued to miss potential release dates (yes this is deliberate exaggeration in both cases). I would enjoy other better made series until the last two books come out, if I weren't 99% sure that they will never come out. at this point, I want to see the conclusion of the story I've been following for 6 years and my best chance for that is d&d. 

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I understand that. I personally find it more unforgivable that a new novel hasn't been published for 6 years. And I only found this series in 2011 when the show came out. I can't imagine how someone who's been a reader from the start feels. I wouldn't call myself a show supporter, I mostly resent both the books and the show these days, I just don't think it's fair when people vigorously attack d&d and pretend that Martin is above criticism. D&D worked their ass off for a decade to bring a story to life and they did a decent enough job to make it the cult drama series of the 2010s in spite of all the screw ups, while Martin has been on paid vacation for 6 years and continued to miss potential release dates (yes this is deliberate exaggeration in both cases). I would enjoy other better made series until the last two books come out, if I weren't 99% sure that they will never come out. at this point, I want to see the conclusion of the story I've been following for 6 years and my best chance for that is d&d. 

I think a lot of people quite honestly, just think that the last thing they watched is the best....that is the only reason anyone would put season 6 as the best, it was better than season 5, but that isn't saying much, LOL.

I would have enjoyed a better series that paid more attention to details and avoided the easy to fix errors the show has been making forever....but I will most enjoy, or at least can cross it off my list, an end to the story and a resolution for the main characters, and sadly, that is coming only from GOT at this point, the author I believe will be lucky to get one more book out, he will never get two or three finished, and since I don't think he can finish the series in two books.......

[crowcrow]

Just now, RhaenysB said:

I understand that. I personally find it more unforgivable that a new novel hasn't been published for 6 years. And I only found this series in 2011 when the show came out. I can't imagine how someone who's been a reader from the start feels. I wouldn't call myself a show supporter, I mostly resent both the books and the show these days, I just don't think it's fair when people vigorously attack d&d and pretend that Martin is above criticism. D&D worked their ass off for a decade to bring a story to life and they did a decent enough job to make it the cult drama series of the 2010s in spite of all the screw ups, while Martin has been on paid vacation for 6 years and continued to miss potential release dates (yes this is deliberate exaggeration in both cases). I would enjoy other better made series until the last two books come out, if I weren't 99% sure that they will never come out. at this point, I want to see the conclusion of the story I've been following for 6 years and my best chance for that is d&d. 

i wouldn't count on them if i were you tbh. yes, grrm has told them the ending but by the look of the show we can tell that grrm was pretty vague about it, so D&D decided to improvise. and by that i can predict that the endings of the books AND the show will be very different. And yes, some points like Jon being a product of Ice and fire, and yada yada will be the same with the books but i have a feeling that the details (e.g:relationships and etc) will be different. And for me tbh, the only valid ending will be GRRM's and not D&D's.

Also about GRRM, i agree. i mean, it cannot possibly take him 6 years to finish ONE book. And I've concluded that there can only be several reasons for this: he is loosing interest, or maybe his age plays a big role on it (that guy is 70, lets just hope that he will live a bit longer), orrrrrr the books are super long and complicated for him to finish.

And TBH, while D&D did work their ass off, they could've at least stayed a bit true to martin's story (which they didn't, they ruined many character's arc and portrayed them wrong) maybe then i wouldn't have hated them so much. And i feel like both D&D and GRRM are loosing interest and they just want to be done with ASOIAF for good. but that's just me, i could be wrong.

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

I think a lot of people quite honestly, just think that the last thing they watched is the best....that is the only reason anyone would put season 6 as the best, it was better than season 5, but that isn't saying much, LOL.

I would have enjoyed a better series that paid more attention to details and avoided the easy to fix errors the show has been making forever....but I will most enjoy, or at least can cross it off my list, an end to the story and a resolution for the main characters, and sadly, that is coming only from GOT at this point, the author I believe will be lucky to get one more book out, he will never get two or three finished, and since I don't think he can finish the series in two books.......

I agree with most of the things you have said. 

For some people, its good bc it's "hollywood" type good (ya know...the cliche endings, good guys win trope and etc. +and some things don't really make any sense but the audience decides to bat an eye to that.) but its not ASOIAF good, many things D&D made just didnt make any sense, and they turned GoT to yet another "hollywood" type blockbuster. Some people just don't like complicated stuff like ASOIAF, so they prefer the show more. While as interesting asoiaf is, because of its length the audience tends to just get bored the hell out of it easily. I have many friends who said that they stopped reading half way through the books bc its too tiring, and long, and just so fucking complicated; and then they ask me how i made it all the way to the 5th book and then had the strength to reread the entire book series twice. I've made a conclusion, that many people are just not as much of a geek as i am (and that they have better things to do than overanalyse the entire book series on online forums lmao), soooo they prefer the "simpler" version of it. and D&D's version is way simpler. and despite it being bad, people would bat an eye to it like they always do with any other hollywood blockbusters. 

I don't think i will enjoy the ending D&D will produce bc of how the show is already different from the books. the show has taken a new direction to hell knows where, and I'm sure I'm going to be really disappointed with some aspects of it.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, RevaM said:

I agree with everything you said. 

For some people, its good bc it's "hollywood" type good (ya know...the cliche endings, good guys win trope and etc. +and some things don't really make any sense but the audience decides to bat an eye to that.) but its not ASOIAF good, many things D&D made just didnt make any sense, and they turned GoT to yet another "hollywood" type blockbuster. Some people just don't like complicated stuff like ASOIAF, so they prefer the show more. While as interesting as asoiaf is, because of its length the audience tends to just get bored the hell out of it easily. I have many friends who said that they stopped reading half way through the books bc its too tiring, and long, and just so fucking complicated; and then they ask me how i made it all the way to the 5th book and then reread the entire book series twice. Ive made a conclusion, that many people are just not as much of a geek as i am (and they better things to do than overanalyse the entire book series on internet lmao), soooo they prefer the "simpler" version of it. and D&D's version is way simpler. and despite it being bad, people would bat an eye to it like they always do with any other hollywood blockbusters. 

I don't think i will enjoy the ending D&D will produce bc of how the show is already different from the books. the show has taken a new direction to hell knows where, and I'm sure I'm going to be really disappointed with some aspects of it.

I actually think the books are pretty readable, even if you are just reading them for plot/story, at least until Feast and Dance when the meandering begins...but they are of a certain taste that isn't for everyone.

The show absolutely does not make sense from a plot perspective any more, it has made less sense each season, but went fully off the rails in season 5, the characters actions, things that happen, do not make any sense at all...and I am always amused at how hard some show fans try to compensate for the terrible continuity and bad plotting.  But GOT isn't about that anymore, it rests now on the characterization from seasons 1-3....and those characters now simply do stuff, big grand spectacle stuff, and they go from spectacle to spectacle.  If you are just watching it for spectacle and don't care to pay attention to the why/how any of this happens then the show is still great.

However, I do think the end...the final end, of how the main characters die or end up...is going to be the same, it will certainly be what GRRM told them, and presumably he is enough of a professional that he wouldn't change those things he gave HBO after the fact.  I also think that a lot of the end of the books at this point can be inferred from what the show does....e.g. Dorne is going to be irrelevant to the final, Aegon is a fake, Doran's plans come to nothing, Euron will be important, etc. etc. 

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

However, I do think the end...the final end, of how the main characters die or end up...is going to be the same, it will certainly be what GRRM told them, and presumably he is enough of a professional that he wouldn't change those things he gave HBO after the fact.  I also think that a lot of the end of the books at this point can be inferred from what the show does....e.g. Dorne is going to be irrelevant to the final, Aegon is a fake, Doran's plans come to nothing, Euron will be important, etc. etc. 

I agree on the part about character's fate. i know that the main ones will survive in both books and the show BUT how and where will they end up will be different IMHO. they changed the characters qualities (e.g:arya, they literally stripped all the qualities she had) so i doubt it will mirror the books. and yeah i completely agree with the bolded lines. the show can't afford many useless plot lines (too much time, effort and money would be spent on something so useless), so it kind of just gives us the idea that none of the things you have mentioned as an example will be relevant to the ending. 

And i think i already mentioned about grrm telling D&D about the ending. yes, while he did tell him the ending, i doubt it was concise bc by the look of the show we can tell that D&D improvised. if GRRM was more concise about the ending then maybe..just maybe, the show wouldn't have fucked up so badly. and personally, if i were in GRRM's shoes, i wouldn't have told them the ending in details either. i would just leave them do stuff they want so that they wouldn't spoil the books' ending. too many things already got spoiled, e.g: hodor, R+L=J, aegon is fake and etc. and if grrm told him everything in nitty gritty details then we can consider that grrm and his books have...well...lost.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, RevaM said:

I agree on the part about character's fate. i know that the main ones will survive in both books and the show BUT how and where will they end up will be different IMHO. they changed the characters qualities (e.g:arya, they literally stripped all the qualities she had) so i doubt it will mirror the books. and yeah i completely agree with the bolded lines. the show can't afford many useless plot lines (too much time, effort and money would be spent on something so useless), so it kind of just gives us the idea that none of the things you have mentioned as an example will be relevant to the ending. 

And i think i already mentioned about grrm telling D&D about the ending. yes, while he did tell him the ending, i doubt it was concise bc by the look of the show we can tell that D&D improvised. if GRRM was more concise about the ending then maybe..just maybe, the show wouldn't have fucked up so badly. and personally, if i were in GRRM's shoes, i wouldn't have told them the ending in details either. i would just leave them do stuff they want so that they wouldn't spoil the books' ending. too many things already got spoiled, e.g: hodor, R+L=J, aegon is fake and etc. and if grrm told him everything in nitty gritty details then we can consider that grrm and his books have...well...lost.

That is the author's fault.  He sold HBO the rights in 2007.  Dance came out in 2011.  He still had plenty of time to get the books out and the series finished before the show wrapped.  The fact that he has not even got Winds out and we are half way through 2017 is on him.  If he had gotten Winds out even in 2014 or early 2015 he could have feasibly gotten the last book out before the show finished.  I have no sympathy for him at this point, he sold the rights to an unfinished story and then continues to leave it unfinished year after year.

[crowcrow]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

That is the author's fault.  He sold HBO the rights in 2007.  Dance came out in 2011.  He still had plenty of time to get the books out and the series finished before the show wrapped.  The fact that he has not even got Winds out and we are half way through 2017 is on him.  If he had gotten Winds out even in 2014 or early 2015 he could have feasibly gotten the last book out before the show finished.  I have no sympathy for him at this point, he sold the rights to an unfinished story and then continues to leave it unfinished year after year.

hey I'm not defending him either, I'm still salty from the very fact that he makes the readers wait for so long.

i can't possibly imagine what its like for the people who has been reading his books since 1991.

But at this point, i have no sympathy for both sides. both of them fucked up badly: grrm with his damned procrastination and D&D with what they have created so far (or as a i like to call it:crap)

Either way, the books belong solely to Martin and only him, and idk about other people, but i will wait as long as it takes for him to finish the books bc D&D's version is not a valid ending for me. At this point, what D&D has made so far is equivalent to a poorly written fan fiction. the only difference is that D&D had enough cha-ching to make a tv series on small screen+have grrm's consent/blessing.

I see we have different views on this topic, so i don't think its really worth it to bicker about this...cause I'm sure neither of us will change our minds in the end & and this convo will amount pretty much to nothing. All i gotta say is that you do you, and me do me. if you wanna watch the show then its fine by me, but its been for like 2 years now since i stopped considering the show as a reliable source.

[StepStark]

2 hours ago, RevaM said:

I'm a lady actually.

Please excuse me, my lady.

2 hours ago, RevaM said:

It must have not been easy to get an amazingly complex character like doran martell to be played by the fantastic alexander siddig and then somehow fuck him up so badly. I just can't bare D&D screwing up my faves like arya, jon, bran, sansa, and etc. if I list all the things that D&D did that screwed up the show in every sense of word & made it the way it is today, I don't think i would be done tomorrow.

if it means i have to wait for like 10+ yrs till grrm will publish his last 2 books, then be it. i'd rather occupy myself with my life, other tv shows (that is not GoT) & other book series till TWOW+ADOS gets published.

And again I have to congratulate you for making a brilliant point.

[crowcrow]

Just now, StepStark said:

Please excuse me, my lady.

You have been pardoned, good sir/lady?

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, RhaenysB said:

I would enjoy other better made series until the last two books come out, if I weren't 99% sure that they will never come out. at this point, I want to see the conclusion of the story I've been following for 6 years and my best chance for that is d&d.

Sorry to say but this would be like waiting for a 10 years old kid to deliver the next installment in The Godfather saga (I'm using Godfather not as something that is unfinished, because it obviously is finished, but as something that could be continued with characters that were alive at the end). D&D simply don't have the talent to tell a coherent, layered, meaningful story. Whether it's Martin's story or some of their own, it makes no difference. As RevaM proved time and again in this thread, D&D managed to screw any number of characters and any number of plots, when all they had to do is just put them on screen without any significant change (only changes due to budget or time constrains). They are not capable of delivering a good story, period.

And last season actually proved this without a doubt. Do you really think that Jon's "death" in the books will be resolved as in the show? Do you really think that in the books Tyrells silent overtaking of power in KL will end with Cersei blowing them up in the Sept? Or that Rickon will die like in the show? Or Ramsay, or Meereen? Even if I never read the books, all those "conclusions" would be highly unsatisfying for me.

What I'm trying to say is that you may enjoy the show, but you'd be advised not to take anything in the show as the conclusion of the original story.