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Agent 326

The Tyrell Conspiracy

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

BTW, you haven't answered my question: ever eaten blueberries in cream, noticed what the juice does to the cream? Ever tried dissolving hypermanganium in a liquid?

No I personally don't like Blueberries

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9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

She is not, or else Tyrion would have mentioned that they were seated at the very end of the table, which would have been a huge insult. Since he does mention that they are seated farther away from the centre of the table than appropriate, he wouldn't fail to mention such an outrage.

You might want to look up what a hairnet looks like. The stones couldn't have been particularly lose, or else they would start falling out as the hairnet was being handled, and then Sansa wouldn't wear it because, come on! a damaged accessory to the king's wedding? What a display of poor taste, and what a risk if it was noticed.

Well Tyrion never mentions anyone further than them, also those two are Joffrey's two favorite people to torture. Also your biggest criticism about the poison being in Tyrion's pie theory is that the server wouldn't be able to do that. Keep in mind that based what we are told then Olenna managed to do the exact same thing with everyone watching. Also keep in mind that the chalice was getting refilled, kicked around emptied without the contents being fully consumed and it was Margery was drinking from it to, why put your own granddaughter at risk like that.

I never said all of them, just one. Did we see everything in the Purple Wedding? It has been a bit since I last read the chapters but I do still remember some of the key things, such as what Joffrey could do after drinking the wine. Also remember that one thought Tyrion has about Joffrey's throat working. Also remember the Strangler immediately takes effect by causing the throat to constrict until you suffocate. I'm surprised that you haven't brought up when Littlefinger confronts Sansa. He likely is just bull shitting his way through that scene. He know's Joffrey is dead by the bells ringing and he asks Sansa if someone adjusted her hairnet, she responds with Olenna did and then Littlefinger makes up a story. How on Earth would Olenna even start a conversation like that with Littlefinger. And on top of that Olenna then needs to ask about Joffrey, and keep in mind that the plans for the Purple Wedding where being made by Littlefinger in ACOK. If Sansa says that Joffrey is the gallant prince that the public eye sees, then she would've murdered a child and undermined the entire plan.

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17 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

that is establishing that Catelyn has done some bad actions.

Whether she has made some bad choices or not, is irrelevant to the concept of an "unreliable narrator".

An unreliable narrator is someone who either

  • leaves observations out, and thereby failing to give the reader certain information. 
  • outright lies to themselves and simultaneously the reader about what they did or saw or heard
  • alters memories and what they saw or heard

Catelyn's POV does not leave out what Cressen or Walder Frey tell her about Jon Arryn intending to foster Sweetrobin to Stannis. She hears it, and so we read it, but she ends up dismissing it as a mistake. That is the POV of a reliable narrator. She gives us the information to help us make our own conclusions, even though they differ from hers. Only at the end, as she starts to claw at her tears, after Robb died, does the metaphorical descripton of her experience become a literal one.

Nowhere does Catelyn create a false memory or lies about what happened to the reader, even if she made a mistake.

Unrealiable or reliable narration has nothing to do with whether the character is likeable or not, smart or not. It's about how truthful their POV is to the reader.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Whether she has made some bad choices or not, is irrelevant to the concept of an "unreliable narrator".

An unreliable narrator is someone who either

  • leaves observations out, and thereby failing to give the reader certain information. 
  • outright lies to themselves and simultaneously the reader about what they did or saw or heard
  • alters memories and what they saw or heard

Catelyn's POV does not leave out what Cressen or Walder Frey tell her about Jon Arryn intending to foster Sweetrobin to Stannis. She hears it, and so we read it, but she ends up dismissing it as a mistake. That is the POV of a reliable narrator. She gives us the information to help us make our own conclusions, even though they differ from hers. Only at the end, as she starts to claw at her tears, after Robb died, does the metaphorical descripton of her experience become a literal one.

Nowhere does Catelyn create a false memory or lies about what happened to the reader, even if she made a mistake.

Unrealiable or reliable narration has nothing to do with whether the character is likeable or not, smart or not. It's about how truthful their POV is to the reader.

She's an unreliable narrator because she is a lunatic, keep watching the rest of the series and you will see one piece of info thrown at you after another that screams insane bitch. Just reread the chapter when she takes Tyrion captive, she thinks about doing what Ned told her to, then she thinks how the North isn't ready for war and then she starts a war right away afterwards and didn't think to make sure that those 50 men all were going with her because we all know that you need a big group to go through the Mountains of the Moon or don't go at all. Tyrion even did all he could to not bust out laughing.

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6 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

She's an unreliable narrator because she is a lunatic, keep watching the rest of the series and you will see one piece of info thrown at you after another that screams insane bitch. Just reread the chapter when she takes Tyrion captive, she thinks about doing what Ned told her to, then she thinks how the North isn't ready for war and then she starts a war right away afterwards and didn't think to make sure that those 50 men all were going with her because we all know that you need a big group to go through the Mountains of the Moon or don't go at all. Tyrion even did all he could to not bust out laughing.

No, she is not an unreliable narrator.

The fact that she arrests him after first thinking how the North is not ready does not make her an "unreliable narrator", but a character who changes her mind. She might be unreliable, as in unpredictable, but then you need to drop the "narrator", because her narration is not misinforming the reader. The "narrator" part of the term says nothing about the reliability of that character in relation to her fellow in world characters, but how truthful the POV is to the reader.

If you do not even try to comprehend the basic meaning of a literary term, then stop using it.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

No, she is not an unreliable narrator.

The fact that she arrests him after first thinking how the North is not ready does not make her an "unreliable narrator", but a character who changes her mind. She might be unreliable, as in unpredictable, but then you need to drop the "narrator", because her narration is not misinforming the reader. 

If you do not even try to comprehend the basic meaning of a literary term, then stop using it.

She isn't misinforming us, she's an insane bitch. Like I said keep watching the rest of the videos in the series. Also what the fuck this is about the Tyrells why are we talking so much about Cat and Littlefinger.

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1 minute ago, Agent 326 said:

 

She isn't misinforming us,

And thus she is a reliable narrator.

I actually don't care about the video. The little arguments you gave to support that she's a lunatic or insane alraedy convinced me it's not worth my trouble.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also what the fuck this is about the Tyrells why are we talking so much about Cat and Littlefinger.

You brought it up.

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20 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Sorry for the wrong no, also you have a typo to.

Ya know, it's funny you call me out on a typo and make one in that very sentence.

20 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also watch the rest of the videos in the series, that is establishing that Catelyn has done some bad actions.

No, thanks, I'm not watching it even if they happen to get something right for a change. If I want a well-done character depiction, I go to Radio Westeros, e.g. here: https://radiowesteros.com/2015/01/19/episode-10-catelyn-a-mothers-madness/

19 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

No I personally don't like Blueberries

Well, that explains a lot. Try putting something leaking a prominently coloured juice in a light-coloured cream, and watch what it does when you take a spoon.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Well Tyrion never mentions anyone further than them, also those two are Joffrey's two favorite people to torture.

The passage goes:

He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey, which a pricklier man might have taken for a slight, given that he had been the King’s Hand only a short time past.

See? The queen's brother and a former Hand: he should have been seated closer. The very end of the table would make it indeed a huge insult, and that would have had to be mentioned.

 

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also your biggest criticism about the poison being in Tyrion's pie theory is that the server wouldn't be able to do that. Keep in mind that based what we are told then Olenna managed to do the exact same thing with everyone watching.

Sigh. No. We are told explicitely that no-one was paying attention to the chalice:

That late in the feast, we had people standing and moving about, changing places, slipping off to the privy, servants were coming and going... the king and queen had just opened the wedding pie, every eye was on them or those thrice-damned doves. No one was watching the wine cup

 

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also keep in mind that the chalice was getting refilled, kicked around emptied without the contents being fully consumed

Honestly, what are you talking about here? It's pretty obvious that the poison was not in the chalice from the very beginning. It was kicked around, refilled, and left on the table while Joff and Marge went to cut the pie.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

and it was Margery was drinking from it to, why put your own granddaughter at risk like that.

Because nobody would ever suspect? All it took was for Margaery to be in (and remember: Margaery was present when Olenna was asking Sansa about Joffrey, yet later was strangely unperturbed by the idea of a psycho husband and a potential conflict that might put her brother in danger) and be given a signal not to drink from a particular moment on. If the circumstances would require Margaery to drink, as well, Olenna could pull a brief distraction

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

I never said all of them, just one.

Huh? So you say that a particular stone had to be picked, out of something like this or this? Or that the poisoning scheme relied on a single stone falling out right on the table (and not on the floor)? That would be an even greater feat than the attraction between Sam, stairs and lembas.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Did we see everything in the Purple Wedding? It has been a bit since I last read the chapters

Then I most respectfully suggest that you go and re-read it, you are making factual mistakes.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

but I do still remember some of the key things, such as what Joffrey could do after drinking the wine.

A couple of seconds of eating and speaking.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also remember that one thought Tyrion has about Joffrey's throat working.

Yep, as he is drinking. Or else he wouldn't be able to swallow the poison.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also remember the Strangler immediately takes effect by causing the throat to constrict until you suffocate.

Yep. That's why a few lines later, Joffrey's throat muscles are hard as stone.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

I'm surprised that you haven't brought up when Littlefinger confronts Sansa. He likely is just bull shitting his way through that scene. He know's Joffrey is dead by the bells ringing and he asks Sansa if someone adjusted her hairnet, she responds with Olenna did and then Littlefinger makes up a story.

Honestly, I fail to see what exactly it is that I should see in the scene that I should bring up, care to elaborate?

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

How on Earth would Olenna even start a conversation like that with Littlefinger.

Lol, and who says she did? That it wasn't LF who started the conversation?

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

And on top of that Olenna then needs to ask about Joffrey, and keep in mind that the plans for the Purple Wedding where being made by Littlefinger in ACOK.

Isn't it clear? She even says that much herself - she heard peculiar rumours and she wants them denied or verified.

3 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

If Sansa says that Joffrey is the gallant prince that the public eye sees, then she would've murdered a child and undermined the entire plan.

Except that at this time, Sansa is not a proficient liar yet. She's a scared little girl, and when she lies, Olenna and Margaery can immediately see her fear and anxiety.

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8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I actually don't care about the video. The little arguments you gave to support that she's a lunatic or insane alraedy convinced me it's not worth my trouble.

Lol, that channel seems to be the latest fad, it gets brought up every now and then. I tried watching something, and I wish I could unwatch it. 

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3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey, which a pricklier man might have taken for a slight, given that he had been the King’s Hand only a short time past.

See? The queen's brother and a former Hand: he should have been seated closer. The very end of the table would make it indeed a huge insult, and that would have had to be mentioned.

 

Sigh. No. We are told explicitely that no-one was paying attention to the chalice:

That late in the feast, we had people standing and moving about, changing places, slipping off to the privy, servants were coming and going... the king and queen had just opened the wedding pie, every eye was on them or those thrice-damned doves. No one was watching the wine cup

 

Honestly, what are you talking about here? It's pretty obvious that the poison was not in the chalice from the very beginning. It was kicked around, refilled, and left on the table while Joff and Marge went to cut the pie.

 

With the kicking around part of it I was talking about right before Joffrey "drank" the poison, because of this one couldn't be sure if Joffrey would even drink it or pour its contents onto the floor. I never implied that the poison was in the chalice.

Also last I checked Tyrion and Sansa would want to be as far away as possible from Joffrey.

Also you where questioning about Olenna doing something in front of everyone that the server couldn't do sorry if I wasn't clear but I was talking about removing the stones. Also why use the hairnet to begin with and not have Olenna and some point take some poison and slip it into the wine, it makes a lot more sense like that.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, that channel seems to be the latest fad, it gets brought up every now and then. I tried watching something, and I wish I could unwatch it. 

Well, I watched a little part, where they conclude the start of Catelyn II proves what she's thinking of during sex. George and sex scenes :rolleyes: It's the one thing he's not good at. And nowhere does it say that those are Catelyn's thoughts while having sex. It simply describes her room, creates the setting and her general feelings about the place, so George can avoid writing a sex scene.

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I don't understand why the only two Strangler poisonings in the books have to be exactly the same. There are so many factors which would go into the timing from consumption to death. Why do they have to line up perfectly?

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23 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't understand why the only two Strangler poisonings in the books have to be exactly the same. There are so many factors which would go into the timing from consumption to death. Why do they have to line up perfectly?

Agreed that they don't need to. Different victims, and each compound of poison will not be a copy of the previous, nor is the wine in which it's mixed or the volume of the wine. It's actually very realistic imo, especially given the source and how they're made. One plant or leaf may have more toxins than the other, or more sizable than the other, and it's plants the poison is made of. The stuff they add to the leaves can vary. 1 gr seems like nothing to us, but on molecular and particle levels it may mean a great deal. The whole manufacturing technique is not as precise as can be done with modern chemical equipment either. This is typical for manufacturing medicine from plant material: it's imprecise to begin with. 

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4 hours ago, Chebyshov said:

Oh my god with this pet theory again. I know we've explained it to you, but the plan wasn't to have Tyrion framed; it was to claim Joffrey choked. The main focus wasn't about Sansa, but protecting Margaery from a situation in which she'd be hurt. Sansa would have been a nice side-benefit, sure, but she was actually there with that damn hairnet to be the Tyrells scapegoat if the choking excuse didn't pan. It's not a wild thought that "hey we're going to poison the cup we know Joff will drink out of, and because we're the fucking Tyrells who are standing right there, we'll probably be in a position to do so at some point" without having perfect cup logistics planned.

I'll admit there's elements of how it played out that are a bit Batman's Gambit-ish, what with Littlefinger trying to incite a fight between Tyrion and Joffrey, knowing how explosive that dynamic could be and how helpful it would personally be to him getting Sansa to safety, but I have to think it just worked far far better than he could have expected (basically got rid of her husband without him doing anything). 

Olenna had no way of knowing Joffrey would eat Tyrion's pie. If Tyrion was the target, surely they would have picked a more opportune time to poison him than a well-attended wedding, as has also been explained to you ad nauseam. Most importantly, this does absolutely nothing on a thematic or character level. It's just pedantry at this point, seriously.

How could they possibly claim Joffrey choked by drinking wine? You can't choke on liquid unless you literally drown yourself in it. The only way this works is if Joffrey is eating and drinking at the same time, which was unlikely to happen the moment he placed the chalice on the table and walked away from it. His wine was way off to the side while his pie was at his place at table.

Also, how would they expect anyone to believe that Joffrey just choked when Sansa suddenly goes missing? And what value is Sansa to Littlefinger or anyone as long as she is still married to Tyrion?

Why wait until the very last minute to free Margaery from her peril, and in such a high-risk way as poisoning the chalice that can be seen by literally everyone in the room, and at a time when virtually the entire Tyrell family is surrounded by Lannister guards? If they were this worried about Margy's safety, they would never had agreed to the wedding until they were sure about Joffrey.

The Sansa-as-scapegoat theory is equally ludicrous. Even in the unlikely event that someone would connect a missing crystal in a hairnet to a dead king on the floor, that trail leads right back to Lady Olenna. Long before the hot poker gets anywhere near Sansa's pretty eyes, she'll give up the story of how she got it, why she was supposed to wear it and who fiddled with it at the beginning of the feast.

The wine plan needs far more than just luck. Littlefinger has to know the exact spot that Joffrey will randomly choose to place the chalice. A foot to the left or to the right and it is out of Garlan's, or anyone's, reach, and now they really have to scramble to rescue poor Margy because the evening is getting late and the bedding is coming.

Yes, they do have to plan the logistics out to the very last detail. This plan is months in the making and is the key point on which years if not decades of plotting and manipulation have come to. To think that after getting the poison, crafting the hairnet, setting up Ser Dontos, making contact with Sansa and all the rest to get the poison in Lady O's hand at the last minute that they would decide from there to just wing it is silly.

Honestly, you think killing Tyrion at the wedding is too risky but killing Joffrey is no big deal? Yes, Olenna had no way of knowing that Joffrey would eat Tyrion's pie. That's the big difference between the wine and the pie: the pie needed only one completely random, utterly unpredictable event to ruin it, while the wine needs an entire string of completely random, utterly unpredictable events in order to succeed.

The truth is on the page. Neither Littlefinger nor Lady O had any reason to kill Joff and every reason to kill Tyrion. The logistics of the wine are impossible while the pie is, well, easy as pie, and the physical/physiological evidence from the two poisonings, taken directly from the text, rules out the wine.

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2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I don't understand why the only two Strangler poisonings in the books have to be exactly the same. There are so many factors which would go into the timing from consumption to death. Why do they have to line up perfectly?

Because in one case we have an old man taking a "half swallow" of wine the does not appear darker or unusual in any way, and on the other we have a young, healthy boy drinking multiple chugs of wine that is so thoroughly poisoned it has turned deep purple. If anyone was to drop sooner, it should have been Joffrey.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed that they don't need to. Different victims, and each compound of poison will not be a copy of the previous, nor is the wine in which it's mixed or the volume of the wine. It's actually very realistic imo, especially given the source and how they're made. One plant or leaf may have more toxins than the other, or more sizable than the other, and it's plants the poison is made of. The stuff they add to the leaves can vary. 1 gr seems like nothing to us, but on molecular and particle levels it may mean a great deal. The whole manufacturing technique is not as precise as can be done with modern chemical equipment either. This is typical for manufacturing medicine from plant material: it's imprecise to begin with. 

Not true. The text makes clear that this is a very old, highly refined process that has been perfected through the ages and requires precise ingredients mixed in precise amounts and put through a very precise, laborious process. The idea that one batch of poison would be significantly stronger or weaker than another -- particularly by five or six orders of magnitude -- is not reasonable. And it is even more unlikely that Littlefinger would waste money on anything that was not the real deal.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Sigh. No. We are told explicitely that no-one was paying attention to the chalice:

That late in the feast, we had people standing and moving about, changing places, slipping off to the privy, servants were coming and going... the king and queen had just opened the wedding pie, every eye was on them or those thrice-damned doves. No one was watching the wine cup

This is irrelevant, even if Tyrion's recollection is accurate, which is doubtful. The mere fact that the chalice is in plain view of upwards of a thousand people produces a very high likelihood of being seen. All it takes is one person. Add the fact that the entire Tyrell family, save one, is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards and you have a plan that has an extraordinarily high risk of failure and the consequences imperil virtually everyone that Lady O holds dear, including Margaery.

So even on the one-in-a-million chance that this does succeed, we have to somehow fathom Lady O's mindset during the entire planning phase:

First, Littlefinger sings Joffrey's praises while his men spread tales about the truth. After the marriage is agreed to, he then goes to Lady O and tells her that he lied and Margaery's life is now in jeopardy from this insane little psycho. So instead of simply going to Mace and telling him what she's learned, she enters a plot with this known liar and double-dealer to commit the most serious crime on the books: regicide. And then, as the plan unfolds, she never once questions the fact that the target for poisoning is a giant, golden chalice that the Tyrells themselves gave as a gift and will somehow find its way right to where one Tyrell or another can reach over the lid and drop the poison with not one of the thousand people catching sight, all while the Tyrell family is under Lannister guard and Littlefinger himself is safely aboard his boat way out in the bay waiting to split for Braavos at the first sign of trouble. Honestly, I wish someone would show me some text that explains how Lady Olenna could have gotten to where she is in life while being such an gullible fool.

 

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Because nobody would ever suspect? All it took was for Margaery to be in (and remember: Margaery was present when Olenna was asking Sansa about Joffrey, yet later was strangely unperturbed by the idea of a psycho husband and a potential conflict that might put her brother in danger) and be given a signal not to drink from a particular moment on. If the circumstances would require Margaery to drink, as well, Olenna could pull a brief distraction

So we're at the pie ceremony where toasts are being called to the bride and groom (remember Lord Buckler?), and in a chivalrous society, ladies go first. So now Margy has her signal and knows she can't drink the wine, so she breaks with long-standing tradition at her own wedding and allows Joffrey to drink first, only to stand there and claim innocence when he drops dead a few minutes later? And even then, we have this thirty-second delay between drinking and choking: plenty of time for Joffrey to drink and then hand it to Margaery, who know has to stand there in awkward silence until the king starts gagging, and then claim "my, how lucky it was that I didn't drink the wine!"

What kind of "brief distraction" is Lady O going to cause that isn't going to raise suspicion when the king falls? She would first have to have Margaery pass the chalice to Joffrey, breaking custom, then wait until he drinks and then cause some kind of commotion at a time when everybody should be standing still while the king and queen receive their toast, and then end the commotion when Joff start's choking. Nothing suspicious about that?

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A couple of seconds of eating and speaking.

Yep, as he is drinking. Or else he wouldn't be able to swallow the poison.

Yep. That's why a few lines later, Joffrey's throat muscles are hard as stone.

It isn't just a couple of seconds or a few lines later. It's about half-a-minute and several p

 

aragraphs --  five or six times longer than Cressen who took one small sip of normal-looking wine compared to Joffrey's multiple chugs of "deep purple." If anyone should have dropped first it should have been Joffrey.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Isn't it clear? She even says that much herself - she heard peculiar rumours and she wants them denied or verified.

Except that at this time, Sansa is not a proficient liar yet. She's a scared little girl, and when she lies, Olenna and Margaery can immediately see her fear and anxiety.

There is nothing that Sansa tells Lady O about Joffrey that isn't known by virtually everybody at this point. Joffrey declared in open court that if Ned confessed, he would get mercy. Than he declared publicly on the Sept of Baelor that despite the pleadings of his betrothed and his mother that he was taking Ned's head anyway. No big secret there.

Afterward, Sansa is seen at court with black eyes and bloody lips. There is no one in the world who could do this and live except the king. And even if there was any doubt, the final beating after the Battle at Oxcross was done publicly in the bailey in front of numerous high lords and ladies, including Lady Olenna's own grandsons.

So none of this is news to Lady O, and she most certainly got an earful about Joffrey from both Loras and Renley long before Littlefinger showed up at Highgarden with his tales.

If you look closely, however, you will see what the purpose of that conversation was. Lady O already knows much and more about Joffrey, but she knows next to nothing about Sansa. Sansa was raised in the North where the Tyrells have no eyes and ears to learn anything about her but what is publicly shared or what they hear third- or fourth-hand. Then she shows up at the capital and presents herself at court as a charming young lady with her septa in tow all full of practiced courtesies and proper manners. But Lady O knows how easy it is to pretend to be someone you're not at court. What is the real Sansa like? Is she smart? Stupid? Willful? Conniving? Will she make a good addition to Highgarden or a major PotA?

That look that Margaery and Lady O shared came right at the moment when Sansa revealed her true self: an honest girl who would risk her own future to warn a virtual stranger about the danger she was in. And it was right after that that the Willas offer was made.

3 hours ago, Agent 326 said:

snip

This is one of the sillier arguments in favor of the wine: that poisoning a three-foot chalice that is in plain view of virtually everybody in the room is the easiest thing in the world, but tucking it into a piece of pie that can be seen by virtually no one is utterly impossible. But when you reject the text, science, logic and common sense, I guess anything is possible.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Honestly, you think killing Tyrion at the wedding is too risky but killing Joffrey is no big deal?

The one point worth clarifying for others here (I've long since learned everything else is an exercise in futility with you): Joff had to be killed specifically at the wedding after the ceremony and not before Marg's valuable hymen was punctured because that is what would have given her some legitimacy as a queen and the Tyrells more political power, while still putting themselves in a position where if shit goes toe-up with the Lannisters, they can get out. Sort of like how she was Renly's queen but never tied to that cause.

Their reasons for acting are quite well-established, and once again, this pet theory does nothing for the story in terms of meaning or character arcs. 

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38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This is one of the sillier arguments in favor of the wine: that poisoning a three-foot chalice that is in plain view of virtually everybody in the room is the easiest thing in the world, but tucking it into a piece of pie that can be seen by virtually no one is utterly impossible. But when you reject the text, science, logic and common sense, I guess anything is possible.

I agree, anything can be possible here. This is like the Pink Letter or Bran's Catspaw, personally I think it was Mance for both, wait I figured it out, it was Mance...

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Not true. The text makes clear that this is a very old, highly refined process that has been perfected through the ages and requires precise ingredients mixed in precise amounts and put through a very precise, laborious process. The idea that one batch of poison would be significantly stronger or weaker than another -- particularly by five or six orders of magnitude -- is not reasonable. And it is even more unlikely that Littlefinger would waste money on anything that was not the real deal.

Horseshit.

They don't know molecular processes. They don't have "mol" unity. They can't measure a particle. They don't even know there are such things as atoms and molecules. And thus they cannot write a chemical cristallizing reaction. And there is no way they can regulate the toxin levels in the leaves themselves. That's impossible.

Even modern labs that make medicine from plant material can't make a similar dosage in each compound. That's one of the reasons that labs study the plant material and then prefer to replicate it artificially, because that's the sole way you can control the level of how active it will be to the T, and make the dosage a copy in each compound. 

All the makers can do in aSoIaF is make experimental notations and use measurements where they are sure that each compound will always be active enough to kill, but it will vary from a few sentences still being said to a mere second reaction. Someone who wants to get someone else poisoned doesn't really care whether it's 30 secs or 10 secs difference - dead is dead. The guarantee you have with a crystal is that it will suffocate the victim for sure within a minute, once dissolved. It's dissolved in wine to mask the color and it cannot be ingested and won't have effect unless dissolved. The color alone makes it impossible to use the cream or the pie - neither is purple. And in order to have a sollution worked into the pie, the poison would have needed to be used in the process of making the dough, and then more people would be reaching for their throats.

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