The Diversity Pipeline

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

Awesome.  This is a really hard thing to get a handle on.  Since you say she is pretty young, she simply may not have had the experience yet to put together an authoritative toolbox.

Yeah I think I may be discounting the age a bit.  In general, she gets mad because so many people think she's younger than she is.  As someone that often gets mistaken for being older than I am, I think she should enjoy this, but I can see how both her actual age and the general perception have a strong effect on her classroom environment.

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

What she's having a hard time expressing may be tough for her to put a finger on.  The disrespect comes in the form of eye-rolling, "exasperated" sighing, argumentative statements and the like.  If it were as simple as the students calling her, "stupid b*****" she wouldn't be having a tough time speaking up for herself.  All of it is disrespectful and it undermines her subject matter expertise. 

This is exactly what I suspect the problem is.  I just feel like a jackass continuing to reiterate encouragement and it will get better with experience, when I can't really identify with the experience.  I've never gotten angry or felt a lack of confidence due to students, and the only thing remotely similar was when teaching at community college there were a handful of (much) older students that would tell me I'm wrong when bringing up past events/whatever because they were actually there.  Only at one point did I say to a student "that's interesting, but this is what you need to know for this class."  This may be partly because of my lax personality and general attitude that I know I know way more than any of my students about the subject matter.  The latter has always given me confidence, and I try to emphasize that with her.

1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

with regards to my College, it's the State that doesn't prioritize proper staffing.  The majority of my students work really hard and they deserve the best from me.  Allowing disrespectful students to continue their disruptive behavior in class hurts the students who are trying to succeed.  It will erode the entire class's confidence in the teacher and in their own mastery of the material. 

When I get sick and tired of fighting for myself, I fight for them.  Ask your new instructor to do the same.

I'm at a public university and the department has been hemorrhaging tenured faculty since I got here three years ago.  The funding to replace these positions is almost as frustrating as the department's ridiculously long decision-making process in actually making offers rather than a ceaseless line of job talks.  Anyway, the bolded is great advice.  Still, I'm just trying to get her on board with the idea of teaching rather than solely research (in part because I think a lot of younger colleagues in the program need to be more realistic about their career prospects if they stay in academia).  But thanks a bunch for your input, it's been incredibly helpful!

[TerraPrime]

13 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Well, yes.  I'm not convinced there is a problem.

I get the feeling you're closer to being convinced that there are no problems, save for the ones that the current laws are already adequately addressing. 

 

13 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

I doubt there are any studies about the impact of what we have not yet achieved (such as exceeding 20% female participation in S.T.E.M.), based on those new methods we have not tried yet, but will presumably need to resort to in order to exceed current results.

 

But aren't you moving the goalposts. The response I made was aimed at your statement that we shouldn't take it on faith that adding diversity will improve performance. I pointed out that on the contrary, we do have data showing that improving diversity improves performance. Now you say we need specific data to show that when STEM participation increases beyond 20%, we will see benefits. But, as you yourself pointed out, we can't possible do the study on that until we reach that mark. So you're moving the goalposts and setting them in the realm of impossibility. One might come across from the collection of your responses thinking that you don't really think diversity have any benefits but you just don't have the data to back it up so you're opting to set up impossible criteria of proof to disguise your unfounded disbelief with a veneer of objectivity. 

 

13 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

But okay.  Be that way.  Insult me.  Then tell me to read a 134 page document.  Assuming I find the time, I'll let you know what I think of it when and if I finished it.

The executive summary is up at the front, only 5 or 6 pages long. 

Incidentally, I've read thousands of pages on this type of thing. I've sat on panels discussing this. I've rated grants on this topic. I've trained educators on diversity issues. I've mentored students. I've taught classroom diversity. I've re-written curricula to be inclusive. You don't know that, of course. But if you're not familiar with the summarized landscape of the field described in the report (and it's a very mainstream report, by the way), and balk at educating yourself on the topic when someone provides a link to you, then perhaps you should re-evaluate the degree of certainty you have on your own grasp of the topic of diversity in STEM fields. We all hold beliefs, but not all beliefs are equally valid. Some beliefs are based on incomplete data, or even faulty data. 

 

13 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

But it's unclear if you believe that educators are discriminating against women and in favor of men, and that they should stop .... or if you think that they should start discriminating in favor of women and against men, in a never-ending ideologically-driven quest for equal outcomes .... or if you are merely suggesting that they just try to be better teachers overall.

I don't believe educators, as a group, are discriminating against women. Very rarely do you get a person saying "oh, you're a woman, I want you to fail, because you're a woman." That's not a problem we need to solve. What is more the reality is that we have cultural and institutional practices that make it more challenging for women who want to get into STEM field to get into it, and/or stay in it. It isn't malice against women; it's a lack of effort to remove barriers that already exist, as well as unconscious participation in cultural practices that reinforce current biases. It doesn't take someone to wish ill for women for their actions to carry such an impact. Volition for harm is unnecessary for harmful outcomes. 

Further, educators aren't the only one capable of mentoring or fostering positive interactions. Industry people, for instance, play critical roles in mentoring and offering immersive experience. Educators also don't work in a vacuum. We are products of our culture, too, and what shifts we can create in the culture on the issue of under-representation will enable educators to do our jobs better. 

It is also erroneous to frame remediating efforts addressing structural inequality for minority as harming the majority. It's a cheap trick to try to rephrase the fight for equality as itself an act seeking to impose inequality. Seeking to remove structural barriers against equality isn't the same as harming those currently benefitting from the inequality.

I also think your choice of language, "ideologically-driven quest," comes across as disparaging and dismissive. The ideology I follow on this issue is to strive for equality of _opportunities_ for all so that each person can live up to their full potentials if they so choose. So yes, my view and advocacy for inclusion and diversity is "ideologically-driven" in the sense that it wasn't motivated out of habits, customs, or divine revelations. You caught me. 

[zelticgar]

1 hour ago, TerraPrime said:

I don't believe educators, as a group, are discriminating against women. Very rarely do you get a person saying "oh, you're a woman, I want you to fail, because you're a woman." That's not a problem we need to solve. What is more the reality is that we have cultural and institutional practices that make it more challenging for women who want to get into STEM field to get into it, and/or stay in it. It isn't malice against women; it's a lack of effort to remove barriers that already exist, as well as unconscious participation in cultural practices that reinforce current biases. It doesn't take someone to wish ill for women for their actions to carry such an impact. Volition for harm is unnecessary for harmful outcomes. 

Further, educators aren't the only one capable of mentoring or fostering positive interactions. Industry people, for instance, play critical roles in mentoring and offering immersive experience. Educators also don't work in a vacuum. We are products of our culture, too, and what shifts we can create in the culture on the issue of under-representation will enable educators to do our jobs better. 

It is also erroneous to frame remediating efforts addressing structural inequality for minority as harming the majority. It's a cheap trick to try to rephrase the fight for equality as itself an act seeking to impose inequality. Seeking to remove structural barriers against equality isn't the same as harming those currently benefitting from the inequality.

I also think your choice of language, "ideologically-driven quest," comes across as disparaging and dismissive. The ideology I follow on this issue is to strive for equality of _opportunities_ for all so that each person can live up to their full potentials if they so choose. So yes, my view and advocacy for inclusion and diversity is "ideologically-driven" in the sense that it wasn't motivated out of habits, customs, or divine revelations. You caught me. 

I've witnessed a lot of unconscious bias in the hiring practices. When it comes to STEM related roles the perceived impact of making a hiring mistake can be significant.  This drives people to analyze risk around hiring much more deeply. Managers then seek to lessen risk in hiring. They look for the referral from current staff members, the known commodity from a competitor, the person who can walk in the door with limited training needs and make an impact... This causes them to miss candidates with the highest long term potential.  We are doing a lot better around identifying these behaviors and removing some of the feeling of risk around hiring. Sometime just letting managers know it is okay to bring someone onto the team that needs to ramp up is enough to remove some of those bias behaviors. Some of the best hires we have had in recent years are the ones that did not perform as well on technical assessments but we were able to measure behavioral impacts around decision quality, bias to action and passion. 

Regarding the second bolded point - given the current demands for STEM skills in industry the idea of a win/lose dynamic should not be a concern. At some point you could reach a scale where that could impact but right now you can easily expand the number technical employees without impacting anyone's opportunity. 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

28 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Your response was aimed at my statement that "I do not believe, as a matter of faith, that more 'diversity' is automatically and always better; that any relative degree of homogeneity or imbalance or outcome is always bad".  I made this statement in response to your claim that the benefits of diversity were something I needed to accept as a "first principle".  

All this was in the context of a discussion of the 20% in S.T.E.M. and what should be done about it.

Not at all.  The 20% in STEM was the subject of the discussion, when you joined in.

Oh, I've read the executive summary, and beyond.  But where in it is an answer to the question I asked you?  What are you proposing we do, that we are not doing already?  And please keep in mind that this report is already 7 years old.

Congratulations.  

Yes, yes, I get it.  You are in your own opinion, educated and wise; whereas I am, in your opinion, uneducated and ill informed.

Neither do I.

If you tell me what exactly you propose we do to fix this problem (that we are not already doing), then, and only then, will tell you if I support it or not, and whether I think it will do more harm than good.

Until you tell me what you propose, I'm not going to assume, for purely ideological reasons, that anything and everything we do to promote "diversity" is necessarily a good thing.

For women only?  Will these mentoring/fostering programs be discriminatory?  Will they violate (for employers) Title VII?  Or (for educators) Title IX?  

If you tell me what measures you mean to make, then perhaps I'll be able to tell you if I think they are harmful or not.  If you don't tell me, you will not be able to convince me that what you have in mind might not be harmful.  I won't take it on faith.  Sorry!

It merely referenced a hypothetical, to illustrate why I won't know whether I support your proposals, until I hear what they are.  

 

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/Lumpy67/media/Huckabee Sanders_zps0gemiyah.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

 

/Wasn't sure whether or not to go with Spicy or the Huck, so I went with Huck for greater diversity.

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/Lumpy67/media/Huckabee Sanders_zps0gemiyah.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

 

/Wasn't sure whether or not to go with Spicy or the Huck, so I went with Huck for greater diversity.

 Man, you went there? to third party hosting upgrades? That's low, man

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 Man, you went there? to third party hosting upgrades? That's low, man

No upgrades, no upgrades. Err you're the upgrade? Or something.

 

/I'm so cheap, I refuse to give Photobucket their 3 bucks a month, or whatever it is they're asking for. Does the pic appear when you click the link? I thought it only affected embedded images and the like.

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No upgrades, no upgrades. Err you're the upgrade? Or something.

 

/I'm so cheap, I refuse to give Photobucket their 3 bucks a month, or whatever it is they're asking for. Does the pic appear when you click the link? I thought it only affected embedded images and the like.

Nope, nothing appears save the 'please update your account' message.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

18 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Nope, nothing appears save the 'please update your account' message.

BOO. Thanks for the heads up. I guess it's time to swap image hosting services.

 

/Odd that it still works on my end. Oh well.

[Lily Valley]

4 hours ago, TerraPrime said:

I don't believe educators, as a group, are discriminating against women. Very rarely do you get a person saying "oh, you're a woman, I want you to fail, because you're a woman." That's not a problem we need to solve. What is more the reality is that we have cultural and institutional practices that make it more challenging for women who want to get into STEM field to get into it, and/or stay in it. It isn't malice against women; it's a lack of effort to remove barriers that already exist, as well as unconscious participation in cultural practices that reinforce current biases. It doesn't take someone to wish ill for women for their actions to carry such an impact. Volition for harm is unnecessary for harmful outcomes. 

 

You've never been an engineering major.  After re-arranging my entire life to take daytime classes and pay for day care, switch to night shifts so I could eat, I went to college.  A year into my program they started offering half the year at night.  Awesome for people who hadn't just done what I had done.  I needed a waiver to get into a class a semester ahead of schedule (co-req instead of pre-req).  Since I'd already had a bit of trouble* with the chair, I was armed.  I brought letters from the relevant professors from the previous courses and my shiny A transcripts.  

He not only refused to grant the over ride and when I asked him for a daytime section he said, "Sweetie, people have to work during the day."

Did he mean to be a complete asshole?  Maybe, doesn't matter.  I did NOT throw his desk at him, but I DID march over to the registrar and change my major.  Then I got real drunk.  

*Essentially I had to get a male translator to get my questions answered in his 8am class, which I attended three days a week, with no sleep, but that's another story.

6 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Really???  You're going to pursue the argument that no-one should be allowed to use the expression "tail wagging the dog", because Einstein????

The argument was that Einstein would say there was no difference between the tail wagging the dog and the dog wagging the tail.  He would not say that.  He would also not say that there was no difference between the Moon circling the Earth and the Earth circling the Moon.

Whether the tail can be said to wag the dog in some sense, or the Moon can be said to wag the Earth in some sense, is neither here nor there.  They are still different.  Different mass does indeed make a difference.   Einstein was a scientist, not a nihilist.

Next up:   Someone will tell me I cannot use the expression "throwing out the baby with the bath water" because some other famous scientist or philosopher would allegedly say there is no difference between the baby and the bathwater. 

Behold Exhibit C:  Posturing without any relevance.

Actually, I just wanted to pick a fight with you in order to prove my point.  Thanks for the opening. 

The moon DOES wag the Earth.  The interplay of gravity and the tides causes the moon to recede ever so slightly.  We will inevitably lose the moon someday.  Momentum must be conserved.  :cries:

Behold Exhibit D:   Nope, nobody is disrespectful or condescending to women in STEM fields, never happens. 

Are you guys watching this?   This guy is making my point about why there aren't more women in STEM.  I was an early programmer.  COMPUTE!  JUMPMAN and my C64!  Then I found bulletin boards with my super-sweet fast ass 2000 baud modem IBM machine.  Teenage boys are fucking awful.  I still keep a hand in, but it's just MatLab or PBasic for work these days.

[Lily Valley]

8 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah I think I may be discounting the age a bit.  In general, she gets mad because so many people think she's younger than she is.  As someone that often gets mistaken for being older than I am, I think she should enjoy this, but I can see how both her actual age and the general perception have a strong effect on her classroom environment.

This is exactly what I suspect the problem is.  I just feel like a jackass continuing to reiterate encouragement and it will get better with experience, when I can't really identify with the experience.  I've never gotten angry or felt a lack of confidence due to students, and the only thing remotely similar was when teaching at community college there were a handful of (much) older students that would tell me I'm wrong when bringing up past events/whatever because they were actually there.  Only at one point did I say to a student "that's interesting, but this is what you need to know for this class."  This may be partly because of my lax personality and general attitude that I know I know way more than any of my students about the subject matter.  The latter has always given me confidence, and I try to emphasize that with her.

I'm at a public university and the department has been hemorrhaging tenured faculty since I got here three years ago.  The funding to replace these positions is almost as frustrating as the department's ridiculously long decision-making process in actually making offers rather than a ceaseless line of job talks.  Anyway, the bolded is great advice.  Still, I'm just trying to get her on board with the idea of teaching rather than solely research (in part because I think a lot of younger colleagues in the program need to be more realistic about their career prospects if they stay in academia).  But thanks a bunch for your input, it's been incredibly helpful!

The youth thing is a really big deal.  My first year teaching I dressed very formally like most of our women Chemistry teachers.  Women Chem eat the most crap in our department.  Now that I have my sea legs and I'm also over the labs and our research extra-curricular anything other than casual or office makes no sense.  I have a 3 hour lab 5 days a week and sometimes 2.  I can't be scooting around under a desk or throwing things in a skirt or even dress slacks.  Plus both look stupid on me without heels.  I DO go formal the first 2 weeks.  Those are much easier days in the lab.  Intro, equipment list, recitation exercises.  After that, nerd tshirts and jeans that aren't too tight.  I look really young dressed like that.

Pass on from me that she'll need to formalize her language with them (omit the word "guys" from her vocabulary).  I call everyone by their last name only and expect to be called "Professor or Ms. Valley"  Every year someone tries to get cute and call me by my first name.  A GASP can be audibly heard.  I WILL bring out that FACE.  Then I have a conversation in private.  I NEVER use a student's first name.  Never.

I think if you can acknowledge that the behavior IS disrespectful would be a great first start.  I used to trade teaching stories with another boarder (WHERE ARE YOU SLOGGY?????) and even though he was much younger than I am when he taught, he never had to put up with any of that kind of shit.  Even more infuriating, he's a total goofball in person.   The struggle is real.

Finally, we have a job that not everyone can do.  Period.    Hang in there.

[DMC]

5 hours ago, Lily Valley said:

The youth thing is a really big deal.  My first year teaching I dressed very formally like most of our women Chemistry teachers.  Women Chem eat the most crap in our department.  Now that I have my sea legs and I'm also over the labs and our research extra-curricular anything other than casual or office makes no sense.  I have a 3 hour lab 5 days a week and sometimes 2.  I can't be scooting around under a desk or throwing things in a skirt or even dress slacks.  Plus both look stupid on me without heels.  I DO go formal the first 2 weeks.  Those are much easier days in the lab.  Intro, equipment list, recitation exercises.  After that, nerd tshirts and jeans that aren't too tight.  I look really young dressed like that.

Pass on from me that she'll need to formalize her language with them (omit the word "guys" from her vocabulary).  I call everyone by their last name only and expect to be called "Professor or Ms. Valley"  Every year someone tries to get cute and call me by my first name.  A GASP can be audibly heard.  I WILL bring out that FACE.  Then I have a conversation in private.  I NEVER use a student's first name.  Never.

I think if you can acknowledge that the behavior IS disrespectful would be a great first start.  I used to trade teaching stories with another boarder (WHERE ARE YOU SLOGGY?????) and even though he was much younger than I am when he taught, he never had to put up with any of that kind of shit.  Even more infuriating, he's a total goofball in person.   The struggle is real.

Finally, we have a job that not everyone can do.  Period.    Hang in there.

I'm pretty sure you're my favorite poster ever.  She's ready to kick some ass.  I know you didn't like the drinks and stuff, but she dressed down all the younger phuds.  It was awesome.  She's so not worried about the students' bullshit anymore.  I'm worried for them though.

If you ever wanna talk teaching lemme know, I'm totally there.   Indeed!!!

[Lily Valley]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

I'm pretty sure you're my favorite poster ever.  She's ready to kick some ass.  I know you didn't like the drinks and stuff, but she dressed down all the younger phuds.  It was awesome.  She's so not worried about the students' bullshit anymore.  I'm worried for them though.

If you ever wanna talk teaching lemme know, I'm totally there.   Indeed!!!

We have an Ed thread and also a STEM ed thread around here somewhere.  If you want to talk teaching, I'll show up for it.  Right now my gf and I are moving and it's midterm.  Stay in touch with me and we can shape the conversation when I can afford editing time.  It ain't this week.  I have 10 classes this semester.  Ten.  Fml.

Edit:  CONGRATS to your new teacher.  I'm in Louisiana and things are very formal as a general rule.  Protocol is king.  Whatever works for your students and your faculty is the best way to handle stuff.  Enjoy the win. 

 

[Lily Valley]

6 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

You're welcome.

Indeed it does.  And I never said otherwise.  I said there is a difference between the moon wagging the earth, and the earth wagging the moon.  It is NOT merely a different frame of reference.  And that was 100% correct.  

I did not say that one existed and the other did not.  I said that they were different.

LOL!  Did you see me not RESPECTING  HER AUTHORITY !!!

Okay.  Point made, Ms. Cartman.  I do not respect you.  You need to earn my respect, not demand it. 

You are trying (unsuccessfully) to be a bully, while demonstrating zero respect for others, and zero reading comprehension.  And if you think I'd tell you any different if you were a man, you are deluding yourself.

Do you think you are fisking me?  I am ABOUT TO DIE from flattery.  I have zero authority about shit around here.

Guys, "I can't read"  :dies of laughing":

:coughs:  "Conservation of momentum"  :coughs:  "I am giggling too hard to post"

I have peed my pants.

 

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Lily Valley said:

We have an Ed thread and also a STEM ed thread around here somewhere.  If you want to talk teaching, I'll show up for it.  Right now my gf and I are moving and it's midterm.  Stay in touch with me and we can shape the conversation when I can afford editing time.  It ain't this week.  I have 10 classes this semester.  Ten.  Fml.

 

Wait what, ten?  Most I ever encountered at Valencia was six.  Ten is not cool.  Way to dissuade me from that route.  My chair is unlikely to write a rec for community college anyway cuz he's an elitist bastard awesome person.  Good to know I don't have to convince him now.  Anyway, yeah, sorry I haven't looked at the other threads.  I'm lazy and I kinda suck in general.

[Lily Valley]

7 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Wait what, ten?  Most I ever encountered at Valencia was six.  Ten is not cool.  Way to dissuade me from that route.  My chair is unlikely to write a rec for community college anyway cuz he's an elitist bastard awesome person.  Good to know I don't have to convince him now.  Anyway, yeah, sorry I haven't looked at the other threads.  I'm lazy and I kinda suck in general.

Hahah.  My friend at River Parishes Community College teaches 14 every semester.  It's not unusual at Community Colleges in the Physical Sciences.  Every year the Chancellor makes some "argle-bargle nobody can teach more than 7 classes" speech.  We remind them that they offer the same money for teachers regardless of degree.  Physics and Chemistry are mandatory for just about everything.  We can't hire more people with what we're offering.  It's not as bad as it sounds.  We don't have research to support outside of voluntary educational research.  My classes are capped at 25, labs at 20 and I LOVE my students. They bust their asses for me.  The only thing that sucks is that we have no TA's for grading.  Midterm time is a real bitch.  

I called in on Monday because of the move.  Told the boss, "I AM SORRY YOU WORK WITH CRAZY PEOPLE BUT MAYBE YOU SHOULD PAY MORE!!!!!"  He is super, he reminded me that mental health was still health and told me to go have a beer.  He also teaches 10 and is the chair.  Many of his classes are online.  I do not teach online classes.  Ten is the most I can manage face to face and I really hate 10.  Eight is a cakewalk and I've never ever had as few as seven.

I'll see if I can pull up the old teaching thread.  There's a lot of us here and it's nice to trade new methodology or just have a place to rant.  I don't want to derail this thread further than I already have.

[kairparavel]

On 9/29/2017 at 10:32 AM, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Also Lily's.  Just saying.

This is absolutely my favorite thing about this thread.  It is so incredibly and completely meta.  There have been actual women in tech who have popped into this thread.  Only Lily has had the intestinal fortitude to really stay engaged (I view myself as an empathetic tourist who knows enough about math-type stuff to be completely and totally dangerous :))

You and Lily and Starkess have summed it all up, well. I've debated coming in all guns and rage but then I'd just be confirming Google guy's bias, you know? As opposed to being viewed as quite right in my frustration. Trying to provide a measured and accurate response seems exhausting (and quite frankly pointless given I doubt it would move the needle of its intended audience) given that most days work is exhausting. *For me* it doesn't suck to be a woman in a technical field every minute of every day, but it's far more trying on a regular basis than it should ever be, for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual work being performed.

 

 

[Altherion]

On 9/29/2017 at 10:32 AM, Mlle. Zabzie said:

This is absolutely my favorite thing about this thread.  It is so incredibly and completely meta.  There have been actual women in tech who have popped into this thread.  Only Lily has had the intestinal fortitude to really stay engaged (I view myself as an empathetic tourist who knows enough about math-type stuff to be completely and totally dangerous :))

There are two distinct issues here that make people angry and most people focus on either one or the other. On the one hand, there is the overt and official discrimination against certain groups (it is strongest against white men, but is not limited to them). On the other, there is the covert discrimination against and harassment of certain other groups (women, but also others). These are intended to cancel each other out, but the extent to which they do so is very limited and what the combination mostly accomplishes is the empowerment of incompetents and bullies. And of course there's no way to get rid of either one as long as the other exists so we're stuck being angry at each other.

[Lily Valley]

14 hours ago, kairparavel said:

 

[Lily Valley]

14 hours ago, kairparavel said:

You and Lily and Starkess have summed it all up, well. I've debated coming in all guns and rage but then I'd just be confirming Google guy's bias, you know? As opposed to being viewed as quite right in my frustration. Trying to provide a measured and accurate response seems exhausting (and quite frankly pointless given I doubt it would move the needle of its intended audience) given that most days work is exhausting. *For me* it doesn't suck to be a woman in a technical field every minute of every day, but it's far more trying on a regular basis than it should ever be, for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual work being performed.

I always want to converse with you.  

 

 

[Lily Valley]

It is obviously not going well. Sorrry.