Three-eyed crow before Bloodraven

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Makk said:

He doesn't answer in the affirmative. He is puzzled and almost seeks clarification about what Bran is talking about, then assumes he was thinking it was referring to him being in the nightswatch.

There was no clarification. He was telling bran that he has been many things over his very long life. 

6 hours ago, Makk said:

This was addressed in the post above.  When Bran is falling he is talking to the 3-eyed crow obviously the 3-eyed crow sees him, but there seems to be another presence watching...

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

The suggestion here is that Bloodraven is watching through the tree, not the 3E Crow.

Not at all.     "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams"   
While I am sure every greenseer that was ever in a tree cold watch, Bran was visited by one entity, the three eyed crow, who just told bran that the only way for them to make contact was in a dream. The other presence you speak about did not contact or interact with Bran.  

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He technically does, admitting that "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams."  

How does that prove he is the three-eyed crow, with the definite article?!

As I said to you before --  in light of your counterintuitive ability to take the leap from the equivocal into the 'yes' -- you are a romantic!  

Bran receives three types of dreams -- wolf dreams, tree dreams, and crow dreams.  They are not necessarily sent from the same source:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

"Some say yes, some no," the maester answered. "The dead themselves are silent on the matter."

"Do trees dream?"

"Trees? No . . ."

"They do," Bran said with sudden certainty. "They dream tree dreams. I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood."

Maester Luwin tugged at his chain where it chafed his neck. "If you would only spend more time with the other children—"

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Jojen sat on Bran's bed. "Tell me what you dream."

He was scared, even then, but he had sworn to trust them, and a Stark of Winterfell keeps his sworn word. "There's different kinds," he said slowly. "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." He looked down into the yard, feeling miserable. "I never used to fall before. When I climbed. I went everyplace, up on the roofs and along the walls, I used to feed the crows in the Burned Tower. Mother was afraid that I would fall but I knew I never would. Only I did, and now when I sleep I fall all the time."

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As others pointed out he did not answer in the affirmative.

He did, in a very specific way, that requires no leaps if literary interpretation. Se the quote in the last two posts 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, "The last greenseer" is pretty fucking suspicious if he's claiming to be training Bran to be the next greenseer.

He is at the end of his life. Until bran merges with the tree, he is the last. as bran is a mere skinchanger 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But to be clear, you think he's the three eyed crow because you trust Jojen's assessment, after all, he seems happy about the way things turned out? 

That and from words from the three eyed crow himself 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And never misinterprets dreams he has?

Correct. Jojen has never misinterpreted a dream. 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, fun fact, the phrase "the crow calling the raven black" or some veriant of it is in every book and even makes it into Dunk and Egg.

feel free to enlighten me with quotes

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

How much are we betting?

That depends on where you live.   

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

How does that prove he is the three-eyed crow, with the definite article?!

Because he specifically speaks of meeting bran in a dream. Who meets him in the dream? The three eyed crow. That is it really. 

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

As I said to you before --  in light of your counterintuitive ability to take the leap from the equivocal into the 'yes' -- you are a romantic!  

what can I say, you bring it out of me. Thank you 

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Bran receives three types of dreams -- wolf dreams, tree dreams, and crow dreams.  They are not necessarily sent from the same source:

I would think all of those dreams fall under greensight as bran has all three and his relatives/friends only get one 

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Because he specifically speaks of meeting bran in a dream. Who meets him in the dream? The three eyed crow. That is it really. 

I used to think as you do, but the more I consider it, the less convinced I am.

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

what can I say, you bring it out of me. Thank you 

Yes, of course. I bring it out of you...(haven't you heard, I'm 'heartless...devoid of heart,' so that must really turn you on...) 

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I would think all of those dreams fall under greensight as bran has all three and his relatives/friends only get one 

The catch here is in the second quote I referenced, together with the so-called 'coma dream,' in which the weirwood consciousness presents concurrently with the crow consciousness, implying that they are two separate consciousnesses, with two separate personalities -- unless you think it's one consciousness split over two modalities at the same time?

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I used to think as you do, but the more I consider it, the less convinced I am.

Well, if we see another book then maybe we will get a better answer. I doubt it though

7 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, of course. I bring it out of you...(haven't you heard, I'm 'heartless...devoid of heart,' so that must really turn you on...) 

Who said you were heartless?  would never wish to be spanked by someone who is heartless. That would be no fun 

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The catch here is in the second quote I referenced, together with the so-called 'coma dream,' in which the weirwood consciousness presents concurrently with the crow consciousness, implying that they are two separate consciousnesses, with two separate personalities -- unless you think it's one consciousness split over two modalities at the same time?

 One is the three eyed crow specifically, the other is the weirnet and every other greenseer in it after they died. The Old Gods if you will 

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Well, if we see another book then maybe we will get a better answer. I doubt it though

You doubt the book or the answer?

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Who said you were heartless?  

Oh, just another crow calling the raven(ous) black..!

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

would never wish to be spanked by someone who is heartless. That would be no fun 

I wouldn't know anything about that... 

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 One is the three eyed crow specifically, the other is the weirnet and every other greenseer in it after they died. The Old Gods if you will 

The whole of the weirnet looking out through the same eyes?  It's possible; after all, Bloodraven and Bran survey the visions together via the same tree, so why not?  Somehow I always thought the presence in the tree was Bran himself (although I know you'd object vehemently to this thesis, given the overlapping of time dimensions it would involve ); alternatively, I liked Voice's hypothesis that it's Lyanna in the tree.  The main problem I have in believing Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow besides Bloodraven's confusion is that the three-eyed crow just doesn't seem to have Bloodraven's personality.  I think the crow is either Bran himself or Jon!  Jon, I suppose, since GRRM has confirmed the three-eyed crow is related to the Targaryens.

[Dorian Martell's son]

29 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You doubt the book or the answer?

 I just do not think that this will receive any more text or attention than it already has. I personally do not see any possibility that anyone other than brynden rivers is the three eyed crow 

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh, just another crow calling the raven(ous) black..!

32 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I wouldn't know anything about that... 

I see, pure as the driven snow.....

33 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The whole of the weirnet looking out through the same eyes?  It's possible; after all, Bloodraven and Bran survey the visions together via the same tree, so why not?  

It would be the inverse of a greenseer looking out at any weirwood. 

46 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 Somehow I always thought the presence in the tree was Bran himself (although I know you'd object vehemently to this thesis, given the overlapping of time dimensions it would involve

 I see

48 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 alternatively, I liked Voice's hypothesis that it's Lyanna in the tree.  

I have not heard that one

49 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 The main problem I have in believing Bloodraven is the three-eyed crow besides Bloodraven's confusion is that the three-eyed crow just doesn't seem to have Bloodraven's personality.  I think the crow is either Bran himself or Jon!  Jon, I suppose, since GRRM has confirmed the three-eyed crow is related to the Targaryens.

I take it this would involve more time travel? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He did, in a very specific way, that requires no leaps if literary interpretation. Se the quote in the last two posts 

He is at the end of his life. Until bran merges with the tree, he is the last. as bran is a mere skinchanger 

That and from words from the three eyed crow himself 

Correct. Jojen has never misinterpreted a dream. 

feel free to enlighten me with quotes

That depends on where you live.   

He did not, I now question wether it's worth even trying to explain any more if you read that quote and take it as confirmation... Bloodraven clearly did not understand the question.

 

"The Night's Watch, yes." The fat man was still breathing like a bellows. "I'm a brother of the Watch." He had one cord under his chins, forcing his head up, and others digging deep into his cheeks. "I'm a crow, please. Let me out of this."

Bran was suddenly uncertain. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" He can't be the three-eyed crow. 

"I don't think so." The fat man rolled his eyes, but there were only two of them. "I'm only Sam. Samwell Tarly. Let me out, it's hurting me." He began to struggle again.

 

Look Sam thought he meant a member of the Nights Watch too...

 

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said. 

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

 

Coldhands gets asked two questions...

who sent you? the last greenseer. 

Who is the three eyed crow? Brandon Stark.

 

In case you didn't get the distinction... we get Leaf:

 

"No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera. 

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. 

 

She actually corrects Meera, he's not the three eyed crow, he's the greenseer, as Coldhands said.

 

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

 

He recognizes Jon in his dreams, and Jon recognizes him as a tree... but even after meeting Bloodraven, the three eyed crow is a seperate entity.

 

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

This is literally saying Bloodraven isn't he three eyed crow... 

 

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

 

Because the wise old sorcerer in the tree isn't the three eyed crow...

 

"He's being brave," said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.

"He's being stupid," Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came." 

For me, Bran thought. "His greendreams," he said.

 

But ok, I get it, you don't like double meanings... so let's talk about Jojen...

 

"The green dreams take strange shapes sometimes," Jojen admitted. "The truth of them is not always easy to understand."

 

Jojen saw a flood drowning people in Winterfell, but it was Theon who came over the walls.

 

Jojen saw Bran and Rickon dead and flayed, but it was the miller's boys.

 

He sees metaphorical visions of the future and reliably doesn't understand what is going to happen.

 

I find it highly doubtful that the three eyed crow is the one image he successfully interprets.

 

Also, I'm not convinced you know what "last" means... as in final, ultimate, that which none other follows.  If Bloodraven is the "last greenseer" then Bran can't follow him.

 

But anyway... my favorite is that crows and ravens are different birds, albeit of a feather.

 

 

Ho," said Pyp. "Listen to the crow call the raven black. You're certain to be a ranger, Toad. They'll want you as far from the castle as they can. If Mance Rayder attacks, lift your visor and show your face, and he'll run off screaming."

 

 "You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?

 

Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros

 

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

 

"Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

 

"You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess." Prince Doran sighed. "You disappoint me, Arianne."

"Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father." She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

 

"Go," the Reader had urged, as the captains were bearing her uncle Euron down Nagga's hill to don his driftwood crown.

"Said the raven to the crow. Come with me. I need you to raise the men of Harlaw." Back then, she'd meant to fight.

 

"I suppose that means I'll have to take the throne, then. I would much rather be teaching you to fiddle."

"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face. 

 

But just because Ravens and Crows are both black birds does not make them the same. The author draws a clear distinction between the two, and so the discrepancy between BloodRAVEN and three eyes CROW appears clearly intentional.

[Unchained]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But just because Ravens and Crows are both black birds does not make them the same. The author draws a clear distinction between the two, and so the discrepancy between BloodRAVEN and three eyes CROW appears clearly intentional.

I'm not fully convinced because I can see different interpretations to a few of your quotes, but definitely not all of them.  If Bloodraven is not the 3EC why does Coldhands take Bran to him?

 

I enjoyed the idea I read once that the chained wolf Jojen sees is the literally chained wolf Shaggydog, meaning he was supposed to take Rickon north.  If, as you say, Jojen also took Bran to the wrong person it makes Jojen a comically bad prophet.  Rickon would probably be easier to turn to the dark side, so maybe instead of taking a future villain to a dark lord, he accidentally takes Bran to someone who wants to do good.  Jojen  accidentally saves the world.  Not that I believe any of this, but I liked the thought.

 

Also the "last" greenseer is a reference to the last hero, who was definitely a greenseer and a parallel to both Bran and Bloodraven.  I can see either interpretation there.  

[Clegane'sPup]

@LiveFirstDieLater  You did a good job pulling this together. Interesting read.

I put the full post in the reveal tab to save space.

Spoiler

He did not, I now question wether it's worth even trying to explain any more if you read that quote and take it as confirmation... Bloodraven clearly did not understand the question.

 

"The Night's Watch, yes." The fat man was still breathing like a bellows. "I'm a brother of the Watch." He had one cord under his chins, forcing his head up, and others digging deep into his cheeks. "I'm a crow, please. Let me out of this."

Bran was suddenly uncertain. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" He can't be the three-eyed crow. 

"I don't think so." The fat man rolled his eyes, but there were only two of them. "I'm only Sam. Samwell Tarly. Let me out, it's hurting me." He began to struggle again.

 

Look Sam thought he meant a member of the Nights Watch too...

 

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said. 

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

 

Coldhands gets asked two questions...

who sent you? the last greenseer. 

Who is the three eyed crow? Brandon Stark.

 

In case you didn't get the distinction... we get Leaf:

 

"No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera. 

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. 

 

She actually corrects Meera, he's not the three eyed crow, he's the greenseer, as Coldhands said.

 

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

 

He recognizes Jon in his dreams, and Jon recognizes him as a tree... but even after meeting Bloodraven, the three eyed crow is a seperate entity.

 

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

This is literally saying Bloodraven isn't he three eyed crow... 

 

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

 

Because the wise old sorcerer in the tree isn't the three eyed crow...

 

"He's being brave," said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.

"He's being stupid," Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came." 

For me, Bran thought. "His greendreams," he said.

 

But ok, I get it, you don't like double meanings... so let's talk about Jojen...

 

"The green dreams take strange shapes sometimes," Jojen admitted. "The truth of them is not always easy to understand."

 

Jojen saw a flood drowning people in Winterfell, but it was Theon who came over the walls.

 

Jojen saw Bran and Rickon dead and flayed, but it was the miller's boys.

 

He sees metaphorical visions of the future and reliably doesn't understand what is going to happen.

 

I find it highly doubtful that the three eyed crow is the one image he successfully interprets.

 

Also, I'm not convinced you know what "last" means... as in final, ultimate, that which none other follows.  If Bloodraven is the "last greenseer" then Bran can't follow him.

 

But anyway... my favorite is that crows and ravens are different birds, albeit of a feather.

 

 

Ho," said Pyp. "Listen to the crow call the raven black. You're certain to be a ranger, Toad. They'll want you as far from the castle as they can. If Mance Rayder attacks, lift your visor and show your face, and he'll run off screaming."

 

 "You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?

 

Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros

 

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

 

"Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

 

"You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess." Prince Doran sighed. "You disappoint me, Arianne."

"Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father." She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

 

"Go," the Reader had urged, as the captains were bearing her uncle Euron down Nagga's hill to don his driftwood crown.

"Said the raven to the crow. Come with me. I need you to raise the men of Harlaw." Back then, she'd meant to fight.

 

"I suppose that means I'll have to take the throne, then. I would much rather be teaching you to fiddle."

"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face. 

 

But just because Ravens and Crows are both black birds does not make them the same. The author draws a clear distinction between the two, and so the discrepancy between BloodRAVEN and three eyes CROW appears clearly intentional.

I'm not sold.  Good work though.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He did not, I now question wether it's worth even trying to explain any more if you read that quote and take it as confirmation... Bloodraven clearly did not understand the question

He did, actually, and he confirmed. Why you can't see that seems to have more to do with your desires/expectations of the novels and the author than what is written. Let's look at what you said about Jojen

 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But ok, I get it, you don't like double meanings... so let's talk about Jojen...

 

"The green dreams take strange shapes sometimes," Jojen admitted. "The truth of them is not always easy to understand."

 

Jojen saw a flood drowning people in Winterfell, but it was Theon who came over the walls.

 

Jojen saw Bran and Rickon dead and flayed, but it was the miller's boys.

 

He sees metaphorical visions of the future and reliably doesn't understand what is going to happen.

 

I find it highly doubtful that the three eyed crow is the one image he successfully interprets.

Jojen sees a flood drowning people at winterfell. The Ironborn, lewd by Theon, who was blessed by a priest of the drowned god  shows up.  
He sees bran and Rickon dead.  He actually saw the miller boys that literally everyone else assumed was bran and rickon 
He sees a dream of a three eyed crow trying to break the chains of a winged wolf. He helps bran get to the cave of the three eyed crow and finds bloodraven, the man visiting bran in a dream. It all works great. Not literally, but it works 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, I'm not convinced you know what "last" means... as in final, ultimate, that which none other follows.  If Bloodraven is the "last greenseer" then Bran can't follow him.

 you forgot "most recent in time; latest" "after all others in order or sequence"  and "the last person or thing; the one occurring, mentioned, or acting after all others."
So, until bran gets to the cave and starts his training, Bloodraven is the last greenseer. 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But anyway... my favorite is that crows and ravens are different birds, albeit of a feather.
Ho," said Pyp. "Listen to the crow call the raven black. You're certain to be a ranger, Toad. They'll want you as far from the castle as they can. If Mance Rayder attacks, lift your visor and show your face, and he'll run off screaming."

  "You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?

 Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros

 Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

 "Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

 "You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess." Prince Doran sighed. "You disappoint me, Arianne."

"Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father." She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

 "Go," the Reader had urged, as the captains were bearing her uncle Euron down Nagga's hill to don his driftwood crown.

"Said the raven to the crow. Come with me. I need you to raise the men of Harlaw." Back then, she'd meant to fight.

 

"I suppose that means I'll have to take the throne, then. I would much rather be teaching you to fiddle."

"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face. 

 

But just because Ravens and Crows are both black birds does not make them the same. The author draws a clear distinction between the two, and so the discrepancy between BloodRAVEN and three eyes CROW appears clearly intentional.

thank you for the quotes.  My only criticism is how you intend to use them. Bloodraven was already a crow. He was lord commander of the watch at one point, so technically, BloodRAVEN is already a Crow. He appears to Bran as one with three eyes 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

25 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He did, actually, and he confirmed. Why you can't see that seems to have more to do with your desires/expectations of the novels and the author than what is written. Let's look at what you said about Jojen

No, he said he was ONCE a brother of the Nights watch clearly showing he did not understand the question.

 

Jojen sees a flood drowning people at winterfell. The Ironborn, lewd by Theon, who was blessed by a priest of the drowned god  shows up.  
He sees bran and Rickon dead.  He actually saw the miller boys that literally everyone else assumed was bran and rickon 
He sees a dream of a three eyed crow trying to break the chains of a winged wolf. He helps bran get to the cave of the three eyed crow and finds bloodraven, the man visiting bran in a dream. It all works great. Not literally, but it works 

But Jojen does not understand a single one of his dreams correctly until afterwords, that's the point. He has guards refusing to bathe and tells Bran he is going to be murdered...

 you forgot "most recent in time; latest" "after all others in order or sequence"  and "the last person or thing; the one occurring, mentioned, or acting after all others."
So, until bran gets to the cave and starts his training, Bloodraven is the last greenseer. 

Read that again... your definitions not mine... latest is not the same as last. Last: After ALL others... the LAST person... acting AFTER ALL OTHERS. None of these would apply to BloodRaven if Bran followed him. 

Unless you think BloodRaven is no longer a Greenseer, to say he was the "last greenseer" as in "previous greenseer" makes no sense since it implies the previous one has concluded it's term.

thank you for the quotes.

You're welcome!

 My only criticism is how you intend to use them.

Fair, mostly I wanted to demonstrate that crowd and ravens aren't the same and that the fact that they are different is something harped on repeatedly... I believe there is a reason for this. As it has been written to mislead on into mistaking BloodRaven as the three eyed crow.

Another great comparison you've probably seen is all the similarities between Bloodraven's lair and the House of the Undying, which of course concludes with them trying to eat Dany.

Bloodraven was already a crow. He was lord commander of the watch at one point, so technically, BloodRAVEN is already a Crow. He appears to Bran as one with three eyes 

The Nights King was ONCE a crow... lord commander even. 

Bloodraven is no longer a crow... by his own admission he WAS one ONCE. He no longer is, he broke his vow when he disappeared. 

 

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

crows and ravens are different birds, albeit of a feather.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Ho," said Pyp. "Listen to the crow call the raven black. You're certain to be a ranger, Toad. They'll want you as far from the castle as they can. If Mance Rayder attacks, lift your visor and show your face, and he'll run off screaming."

 

 "You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?

 

Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros

 

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

 

"Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

 

"You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess." Prince Doran sighed. "You disappoint me, Arianne."

"Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father." She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

 

"Go," the Reader had urged, as the captains were bearing her uncle Euron down Nagga's hill to don his driftwood crown.

"Said the raven to the crow. Come with me. I need you to raise the men of Harlaw." Back then, she'd meant to fight.

 

"I suppose that means I'll have to take the throne, then. I would much rather be teaching you to fiddle."

"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face.

 

 But just because Ravens and Crows are both black birds does not make them the same. The author draws a clear distinction between the two, and so the discrepancy between BloodRAVEN and three eyes CROW appears clearly intentional.

 

Hi LFDL, I found a quote which might amuse you:

Quote

ASOS -- Bran I

"Your maester said naught of Robb when he lay dying," Jojen reminded him. "Ironmen on the Stony Shore, he said, and, east, the Bastard of Bolton. Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte fallen, the heir to Cerwyn dead, and the castellan of Torrhen's Square. War everywhere, he said, each man against his neighbor."

"We have plowed this field before," his sister said. "You want to make for the Wall, and your three-eyed crow. That's well and good, but the Wall is a very long way and Bran has no legs but Hodor. If we were mounted . . . "

"If we were eagles we might fly," said Jojen sharply, "but we have no wings, no more than we have horses."

"There are horses to be had," said Meera. "Even in the deep of the wolfswood there are foresters, crofters, hunters. Some will have horses."

"And if they do, should we steal them? Are we thieves? The last thing we need is men hunting us."

"We could buy them," she said. "Trade for them."

(As an aside, I think this might be foreshadowing for Bran skinchanging a dragon...'dragon steal' = dragonsteel!) 

Quote

"Look at us, Meera. A crippled boy with a direwolf, a simpleminded giant, and two crannogmen a thousand leagues from the Neck. We will be known. And word will spread. So long as Bran remains dead, he is safe. Alive, he becomes prey for those who want him dead for good and true." Jojen went to the fire to prod the embers with a stick. "Somewhere to the north, the three-eyed crow awaits us. Bran has need of a teacher wiser than me."

"How, Jojen?" his sister asked. "How?"

"Afoot," he answered. "A step at a time."

"The road from Greywater to Winterfell went on forever, and we were mounted then. You want us to travel a longer road on foot, without even knowing where it ends. Beyond the Wall, you say. I haven't been there, no more than you, but I know that Beyond the Wall's a big place, Jojen. Are there many three-eyed crows, or only one? How do we find him?"

"Perhaps he will find us."

Before Meera could find a reply to that, they heard the sound; the distant howl of a wolf, drifting through the night. "Summer?" asked Jojen, listening.

"No." Bran knew the voice of his direwolf.

"Are you certain?" said the little grandfather.

"Certain." Summer had wandered far afield today, and would not be back till dawn. Maybe Jojen dreams green, but he can't tell a wolf from a direwolf. He wondered why they all listened to Jojen so much. He was not a prince like Bran, nor big and strong like Hodor, nor as good a hunter as Meera, yet somehow it was always Jojen telling them what to do.

 

Jojen 'can't tell a wolf from a direwolf'... which raises the question, can he tell a raven from a crow..?!  

This reminds me of that story 'Are you my Mother?' you pointed out on the poetry thread, about the bird who goes on a quest to find its mother, mistaking several other species for his mother, endangering himself along the way:

Quote

Are You My Mother? is the story about a hatchling bird. His mother, thinking her egg will stay in her nest where she left it, leaves her egg alone and flies off to find food. The baby bird hatches. He does not understand where his mother is so he goes to look for her. As he loses his ability to fly, he walks, and in his search, he asks a kitten, a hen, a dog, and a cow if they are his mother, but none of them are.

Refusing to give up, he sees an old car, which he realizes certainly cannot be his mother. In desperation, the hatchling calls out to a boat and a plane (neither responds), and at last, climbs onto the teeth of an enormous power shovel. It belches "SNORT" from its exhaust stack, prompting the bird to cry, "You are not my mother! You are a Snort!" As the machine shudders and grinds into motion, he cannot escape. "I want my mother!" he shouts.

At that moment, the Snort drops the hatchling into his nest, and his mother returns. The two are united, much to their delight, and the baby bird recounts to his mother the adventures he had looking for her.

The other discrepancy that bothers me is that no matter how you do the math, Bloodraven does not have three eyes.  Moreover, the answer to the question 'How many eyes does Bloodraven have?' is explicitly given for us again and again, as variously 'one', 'two', and mostly 'a thousand and one' -- but never 'three'!

Spoiler

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

 

The Sworn Sword

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? ran the riddle Egg had heard in Oldtown. A thousand eyes, and one.

Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul.

 

The Sworn Sword

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes, and one.

 

The Sworn Sword

"So close a thing . . . if Daemon had ridden over Gwayne Corbray and left him to his fate, he might have broken Maekar's left before Bloodraven could take the ridge. The day would have belonged to the black dragons then, with the Hand slain and the road to King's Landing open before them. Daemon might have been sitting on the Iron Throne by the time Prince Baelor could come up with his stormlords and his Dornishmen.

"The singers can go on about their hammer and their anvil, ser, but it was the kinslayer who turned the tide with a white arrow and a black spell. He rules us now as well, make no mistake. King Aerys is his creature. It would not surprise to learn that Bloodraven had ensorceled His Grace, to bend him to his will. Small wonder we are cursed." Ser Eustace shook his head and lapsed into a brooding silence. Dunk wondered how much Egg had overheard, but there was no way to ask him. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? he thought.

 

The Sworn Sword

"Or pretty eyes. Tell her that her gown brings out the color of her eyes." The lad reflected for a moment.

"Unless she only has the one eye, like Lord Bloodraven."

 

The Sworn Sword

Dunk shifted uncomfortably in his seat. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes, and one. He hoped the King's Hand did not have a thousand ears and one as well. 

 

The Mystery Knight

He remembered then. He was a holy man sworn to the Seven, even if he did preach treason.

"His hands are scarlet with a brother's blood, and the blood of his young nephews too," the hunchback had declared to the crowd that had gathered in the market square. "A shadow came at his command to strangle brave Prince Valarr's sons in their mother's womb. Where is our Young Prince now? Where is his brother, sweet Matarys? Where has Good King Daeron gone, and fearless Baelor Breakspear? The grave has claimed them, every one, yet he endures, this pale bird with bloody beak who perches on King Aerys's shoulder and caws into his ear. The mark of hell is on his face and in his empty eye, and he has brought us drought and pestilence and murder. Rise up, I say, and remember our true king across the water. Seven gods there are, and seven kingdoms, and the Black Dragon sired seven sons! Rise up, my lords and ladies. Rise up, you brave knights and sturdy yeomen, and cast down Bloodraven, that foul sorcerer, lest your children and your children's children be cursed forever-more." Every word was treason. Even so, it was a shock to see him here, with holes where his eyes had been. "That's him, aye," Dunk said, "and another good reason to put this town behind us." He gave Thunder a touch of the spur, and he and Egg rode through the gates of Stoney Sept, listening to the soft sound of the rain. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

He had seen the man once with his own two eyes, back in King's Landing. White as bone were the skin and hair of Brynden Rivers, and his eye—he had only the one, the other having been lost to his half brother Bittersteel on the Redgrass Field—was red as blood. On cheek and neck he bore the winestain birthmark that had given him his name.

 

The Mystery Knight

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle went. A thousand eyes, and one.

 

The Mystery Knight

Only then did the King's Hand turn to Dunk.

He was older than Dunk remembered him, with a lined hard face, but his skin was still as pale as bone, and his cheek and neck still bore the ugly winestain birthmark that some people thought looked like a raven. His boots were black, his tunic scarlet. Over it he wore a cloak the color of smoke, fastened with a brooch in the shape of an iron hand. His hair fell to his shoulders, long and white and straight, brushed forward so as to conceal his missing eye, the one that Bittersteel had plucked from him on the Redgrass Field. The eye that remained was very red. How many eyes has Bloodraven? A thousand eyes, and one.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Hi LFDL, I found a quote which might amuse you:

(As an aside, I think this might be foreshadowing for Bran skinchanging a dragon...'dragon steal' = dragonsteel!) 

Jojen 'can't tell a wolf from a direwolf'... which raises the question, can he tell a raven from a crow..?!  

This reminds me of that story 'Are you my Mother?' you pointed out on the poetry thread, about the bird who goes on a quest to find its mother, mistaking several other species for his mother, endangering himself along the way:

The other discrepancy that bothers me is that no matter how you do the math, Bloodraven does not have three eyes.  Moreover, the answer to the question 'How many eyes does Bloodraven have?' is explicitly given for us again and again, as variously 'one', 'two', and mostly 'a thousand and one' -- but never 'three'!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

"Bloodraven?" said Dareon. "I know a song about him. 'A Thousand Eyes, and One,' it's called. But I thought he lived a hundred years ago."

 

The Sworn Sword

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? ran the riddle Egg had heard in Oldtown. A thousand eyes, and one.

Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul.

 

The Sworn Sword

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes, and one.

 

The Sworn Sword

"So close a thing . . . if Daemon had ridden over Gwayne Corbray and left him to his fate, he might have broken Maekar's left before Bloodraven could take the ridge. The day would have belonged to the black dragons then, with the Hand slain and the road to King's Landing open before them. Daemon might have been sitting on the Iron Throne by the time Prince Baelor could come up with his stormlords and his Dornishmen.

"The singers can go on about their hammer and their anvil, ser, but it was the kinslayer who turned the tide with a white arrow and a black spell. He rules us now as well, make no mistake. King Aerys is his creature. It would not surprise to learn that Bloodraven had ensorceled His Grace, to bend him to his will. Small wonder we are cursed." Ser Eustace shook his head and lapsed into a brooding silence. Dunk wondered how much Egg had overheard, but there was no way to ask him. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? he thought.

 

The Sworn Sword

"Or pretty eyes. Tell her that her gown brings out the color of her eyes." The lad reflected for a moment.

"Unless she only has the one eye, like Lord Bloodraven."

 

The Sworn Sword

Dunk shifted uncomfortably in his seat. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes, and one. He hoped the King's Hand did not have a thousand ears and one as well. 

 

The Mystery Knight

He remembered then. He was a holy man sworn to the Seven, even if he did preach treason.

"His hands are scarlet with a brother's blood, and the blood of his young nephews too," the hunchback had declared to the crowd that had gathered in the market square. "A shadow came at his command to strangle brave Prince Valarr's sons in their mother's womb. Where is our Young Prince now? Where is his brother, sweet Matarys? Where has Good King Daeron gone, and fearless Baelor Breakspear? The grave has claimed them, every one, yet he endures, this pale bird with bloody beak who perches on King Aerys's shoulder and caws into his ear. The mark of hell is on his face and in his empty eye, and he has brought us drought and pestilence and murder. Rise up, I say, and remember our true king across the water. Seven gods there are, and seven kingdoms, and the Black Dragon sired seven sons! Rise up, my lords and ladies. Rise up, you brave knights and sturdy yeomen, and cast down Bloodraven, that foul sorcerer, lest your children and your children's children be cursed forever-more." Every word was treason. Even so, it was a shock to see him here, with holes where his eyes had been. "That's him, aye," Dunk said, "and another good reason to put this town behind us." He gave Thunder a touch of the spur, and he and Egg rode through the gates of Stoney Sept, listening to the soft sound of the rain. How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

He had seen the man once with his own two eyes, back in King's Landing. White as bone were the skin and hair of Brynden Rivers, and his eye—he had only the one, the other having been lost to his half brother Bittersteel on the Redgrass Field—was red as blood. On cheek and neck he bore the winestain birthmark that had given him his name.

 

The Mystery Knight

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle went. A thousand eyes, and one.

 

The Mystery Knight

Only then did the King's Hand turn to Dunk.

He was older than Dunk remembered him, with a lined hard face, but his skin was still as pale as bone, and his cheek and neck still bore the ugly winestain birthmark that some people thought looked like a raven. His boots were black, his tunic scarlet. Over it he wore a cloak the color of smoke, fastened with a brooch in the shape of an iron hand. His hair fell to his shoulders, long and white and straight, brushed forward so as to conceal his missing eye, the one that Bittersteel had plucked from him on the Redgrass Field. The eye that remained was very red. How many eyes has Bloodraven? A thousand eyes, and one.

 

Haha love that one, although honestly I expect it is a LotR shout out.

Why they need to make the secret journey into enemy territory. Of course in this case there is no ring to destroy, they're just going to make friends with the sourcerous undead being beyond the wall who is lives  with supernatural ancient enemies of mankind.

Good plan! And my Axe!

But really... "Fly you fools!"

 

The not telling a wolf from a dire wolf is a nice point though! 

I really like it! Not sure how I missed that, great find.

 

The number of Eyes is something that definitely bothers me... in addition check out that root coming out of his biter stolen eye, remind you of anything?

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

...

"Let us see." The priest lowered his cowl. Beneath he had no face; only a yellowed skull with a few scraps of skin still clinging to the cheeks, and a white wormwriggling from one empty eye socket. "Kiss me, child," he croaked, in a voice as dry and husky as a death rattle.

...

 

She walked away from him, to the door on the right.

"No," Pyat screeched. "No, to me, come to me, to meeeeeee." His face crumbled inward, changing to something pale and wormlike.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

@LiveFirstDieLater  You did a good job pulling this together. Interesting read.

I put the full post in the reveal tab to save space.

  Reveal hidden contents

He did not, I now question wether it's worth even trying to explain any more if you read that quote and take it as confirmation... Bloodraven clearly did not understand the question.

 

"The Night's Watch, yes." The fat man was still breathing like a bellows. "I'm a brother of the Watch." He had one cord under his chins, forcing his head up, and others digging deep into his cheeks. "I'm a crow, please. Let me out of this."

Bran was suddenly uncertain. "Are you the three-eyed crow?" He can't be the three-eyed crow. 

"I don't think so." The fat man rolled his eyes, but there were only two of them. "I'm only Sam. Samwell Tarly. Let me out, it's hurting me." He began to struggle again.

 

Look Sam thought he meant a member of the Nights Watch too...

 

"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said. 

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

 

Coldhands gets asked two questions...

who sent you? the last greenseer. 

Who is the three eyed crow? Brandon Stark.

 

In case you didn't get the distinction... we get Leaf:

 

"No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera. 

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. 

 

She actually corrects Meera, he's not the three eyed crow, he's the greenseer, as Coldhands said.

 

The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

 

He recognizes Jon in his dreams, and Jon recognizes him as a tree... but even after meeting Bloodraven, the three eyed crow is a seperate entity.

 

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

This is literally saying Bloodraven isn't he three eyed crow... 

 

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins. He had thought the three-eyed crow would be a sorcerer, a wise old wizard who could fix his legs, but that was some stupid child's dream, he realized now. I am too old for such fancies, he told himself. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. That was as good as being a knight. Almost as good, anyway.

 

Because the wise old sorcerer in the tree isn't the three eyed crow...

 

"He's being brave," said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.

"He's being stupid," Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came." 

For me, Bran thought. "His greendreams," he said.

 

But ok, I get it, you don't like double meanings... so let's talk about Jojen...

 

"The green dreams take strange shapes sometimes," Jojen admitted. "The truth of them is not always easy to understand."

 

Jojen saw a flood drowning people in Winterfell, but it was Theon who came over the walls.

 

Jojen saw Bran and Rickon dead and flayed, but it was the miller's boys.

 

He sees metaphorical visions of the future and reliably doesn't understand what is going to happen.

 

I find it highly doubtful that the three eyed crow is the one image he successfully interprets.

 

Also, I'm not convinced you know what "last" means... as in final, ultimate, that which none other follows.  If Bloodraven is the "last greenseer" then Bran can't follow him.

 

But anyway... my favorite is that crows and ravens are different birds, albeit of a feather.

 

 

Ho," said Pyp. "Listen to the crow call the raven black. You're certain to be a ranger, Toad. They'll want you as far from the castle as they can. If Mance Rayder attacks, lift your visor and show your face, and he'll run off screaming."

 

 "You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?

 

Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros

 

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

 

"Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

 

"You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess." Prince Doran sighed. "You disappoint me, Arianne."

"Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father." She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

 

"Go," the Reader had urged, as the captains were bearing her uncle Euron down Nagga's hill to don his driftwood crown.

"Said the raven to the crow. Come with me. I need you to raise the men of Harlaw." Back then, she'd meant to fight.

 

"I suppose that means I'll have to take the throne, then. I would much rather be teaching you to fiddle."

"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face. 

 

But just because Ravens and Crows are both black birds does not make them the same. The author draws a clear distinction between the two, and so the discrepancy between BloodRAVEN and three eyes CROW appears clearly intentional.

I'm not sold.  Good work though.

Hey, I can totally appreciate that, I've convinced myself of it, but I certainly don't have hard proof.

Thanks!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 hours ago, Unchained said:

I'm not fully convinced because I can see different interpretations to a few of your quotes, but definitely not all of them.  If Bloodraven is not the 3EC why does Coldhands take Bran to him?

 

I enjoyed the idea I read once that the chained wolf Jojen sees is the literally chained wolf Shaggydog, meaning he was supposed to take Rickon north.  If, as you say, Jojen also took Bran to the wrong person it makes Jojen a comically bad prophet.  Rickon would probably be easier to turn to the dark side, so maybe instead of taking a future villain to a dark lord, he accidentally takes Bran to someone who wants to do good.  Jojen  accidentally saves the world.  Not that I believe any of this, but I liked the thought.

 

Also the "last" greenseer is a reference to the last hero, who was definitely a greenseer and a parallel to both Bran and Bloodraven.  I can see either interpretation there.  

Interpreting quotes in multiple ways is for sure part of the beauty... and I don't blame anyone for doubting.

Clash of Kings:

"My brother dreams as other boys do, and those dreams might mean anything," Meera said, "but the green dreams are different."

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a wingedwolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them." 

"Did the crow have three eyes?"

...

"You are the winged wolf, Bran," said Jojen. "I wasn't sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains."

The chained winged wolf is one of the dreams Jojen sees with the three eyed crow trying to free it. I kinda like the idea it's Bran trying to free Summer who was litterally chained in the Godswood (as was Shaggydog, just like you point out).

 

This time the clink and scrape were followed by a slithering and the soft swift patter of skinfeet on stone. The wind brought the faintest whiff of a man-smell he did not know. Stranger. Danger. Death.

He ran toward the sound, his brother racing beside him. The stone dens rose before them, walls slick and wet. He bared his teeth, but the man-rock took no notice. A gate loomed up, a black iron snake coiled tight about bar and post. When he crashed against it, the gate shuddered and the snake clanked and slithered and held. Through the bars he could look down the long stone burrow that ran between the walls to the stony field beyond, but there was no way through. He could force his muzzle between the bars, but no more. Many a time his brother had tried to crack the black bones of the gate between his teeth, but they would not break. They had tried to dig under, but there were great flat stones beneath, half-covered by earth and blown leaves. 

Snarling, he paced back and forth in front of the gate, then threw himself at it once more. It moved a little and slammed him back. Locked, something whispered. Chained. The voice he did not hear, the scent without a smell. The other ways were closed as well. Where doors opened in the walls of man-rock, the wood was thick and strong. There was no way out.

 

Bran as the Three eyed crow trying unsuccessfully to free Summer, the winged wolf. 

 

Then in Storm of Swords:

"Winter is coming." Just saying it made Bran feel cold.

Jojen gave a solemn nod. "I dreamed of a wingedwolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly." 

"Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly

 

To be completely honest the biggest reason I don't think it's about Shaggydog is that I once followed another's advise and googled what a "shaggydog story" is... from the bottom of my heart I'm deeply sorry for any tears doing the same might cause anyone.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No, he said he was ONCE a brother of the Nights watch clearly showing he did not understand the question.

Yes, he clearly understood it, and spoke a truth.  He then speaks of coming to bran in a dream. Who, other than the three eyed crow visited bran in a dream? 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But Jojen does not understand a single one of his dreams correctly until afterwords, that's the point. He has guards refusing to bathe and tells Bran he is going to be murdered...

His dream are symbolic. It works perfectly. Did a wave wash over winterfell? No the iron born did. Did he meet a crow with three eyes? No, he met an old greenseer in a tree, who was a crow, and not only that, he was the head crow, despite his name being "bloodraven" 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Read that again... your definitions not mine... latest is not the same as last. Last: After ALL others... the LAST person... acting AFTER ALL OTHERS. None of these would apply to BloodRaven if Bran followed him. 

Unless you think BloodRaven is no longer a Greenseer, to say he was the "last greenseer" as in "previous greenseer" makes no sense since it implies the previous one has concluded it's term.

Until bran got to the cave and trained, Bloodraven was the last, and if bran had not made it, he still would have been the last.  

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You're welcome!

 My only criticism is how you intend to use them.

Fair, mostly I wanted to demonstrate that crowd and ravens aren't the same and that the fact that they are different is something harped on repeatedly... I believe there is a reason for this. As it has been written to mislead on into mistaking BloodRaven as the three eyed crow.

I can see that.  I'm not sold but it is a good argument 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Another great comparison you've probably seen is all the similarities between Bloodraven's lair and the House of the Undying, which of course concludes with them trying to eat Dany.

I agree, but since weirwoods are very much alive and thriving I find it similar but opposite. The trees, children or bloodraven won't try to eat bran like the undying tried  do with dany,  But I also do not see bran leaving the cave. At some point Bran will go into a tree permanently. That will be the bittersweet ending, watching (what's left of) his family grow old, have children and grandchildren yet never being able to be with them in person 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Nights King was ONCE a crow... lord commander even. 

Bloodraven is no longer a crow... by his own admission he WAS one ONCE. He no longer is, he broke his vow when he disappeared. 

The nights king is neither here nor there.  The point being is that a raven can be a crow

[LiveFirstDieLater]

25 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, he clearly understood it, and spoke a truth.  He then speaks of coming to bran in a dream. Who, other than the three eyed crow visited bran in a dream? 

The Weirwood he dreams of distinctly from the three eyed crow, who was brooding over the pool during his first falling dream, and which seems to be trying to call out to him. Remember BloodRaven says he cannot speak to the people he sees and has Bran look out of a weirwood as well.

His dream are symbolic. It works perfectly. Did a wave wash over winterfell? No the iron born did. Did he meet a crow with three eyes? No, he met an old greenseer in a tree, who was a crow, and not only that, he was the head crow, despite his name being "bloodraven" .

But he only understands the symbolism after the fact, that's the point. He is like Melisandre in that they do not  now what they are seeing... speaking which, Mel sees Bloodraven as a wooden face in her dreams too:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled

Quote

Until bran got to the cave and trained, Bloodraven was the last, and if bran had not made it, he still would have been the last.  

So does that make every greenseer the "last"? I don't think that makes sense just from a language perspective.

Quote

I can see that.  I'm not sold but it is a good argument 

I agree, but since weirwoods are very much alive and thriving I find it similar but opposite. The trees, children or bloodraven won't try to eat bran like the undying tried  do with dany,  But I also do not see bran leaving the cave. At some point Bran will go into a tree permanently. That will be the bittersweet ending, watching (what's left of) his family grow old, have children and grandchildren yet never being able to be with them in person 

The nights king is neither here nor there.  The point being is that a raven can be a crow

What makes you think the Trees around the House of the Undying aren't alive and thriving? Seems like maybe they are just trees of a different color... 

 

The Nights King was supposedly named Brandon Stark and "flew" down from the Wall giving his "seed" and soul to a woman with stars for eyes... personally I think it's relevant.

[Dorian Martell's son]

7 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But he only understands the symbolism after the fact, that's the point. He is like Melisandre in that they do not  now what they are seeing... speaking which, Mel sees Bloodraven as a wooden face in her dreams too:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled

that could be the case if he hadn't specifically mentioned coming to Bran in a dream.  

11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So does that make every greenseer the "last"? I don't think that makes sense just from a language perspective.

Until the next trainee shows up, Yes. It makes perfect sense linguistically 

13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What makes you think the Trees around the House of the Undying aren't alive and thriving? Seems like maybe they are just trees of a different color... 

Evening shade trees are not mentioned (At least I don't remember them being) anywhere in the books outside of Qarth.  There is many a mention of weirwoods and how they are starting to return. Sam sees one at the wall. There is the brotherhood cave full of weirwood roots. there are weirwood saplings growing in the rainwood as Arianne and her crew head to storms end. The Black barked blue leaf trees symbolize death. The weirwoods symbolize life. 

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Nights King was supposedly named Brandon Stark and "flew" down from the Wall giving his "seed" and soul to a woman with stars for eyes... personally I think it's relevant.

How so?