Three-eyed crow before Bloodraven

[kissdbyfire]

On 02/07/2017 at 5:34 PM, Grazdan zo Azer said:

Do you have any guess without textural proof?

Edit: Three-eyed crow in the books.

I thank the Old Gods you changed your avi!

[Makk]

Brynden Rivers was rumored  to have significant powers before he even went north. He could have simply developed and become more powerful (or simply different) and knowledgeable once he plugged himself into the tree and started seeing everything that Bran is seeing. Since they can see forward and backwards through time to some extent, Bloodravens teacher might be Bran 

There was a good point raised above though. We don't actually know for certain that Bloodraven aka Brynden Rivers is the three-eyed crow that has appeared to Bran in some dreams.

[kissdbyfire]

51 minutes ago, Makk said:

Brynden Rivers was rumored  to have significant powers before he even went north. He could have simply developed and become more powerful (or simply different) and knowledgeable once he plugged himself into the tree and started seeing everything that Bran is seeing. Since they can see forward and backwards through time to some extent, Bloodravens teacher might be Bran 

There was a good point raised above though. We don't actually know for certain that Bloodraven aka Brynden Rivers is the three-eyed crow that has appeared to Bran in some dreams.

Every so often I see this idea popping up. Imo there's absolutely nothing to it and I have zero doubts that Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is the 3EC. 

[Makk]

16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Every so often I see this idea popping up. Imo there's absolutely nothing to it and I have zero doubts that Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is the 3EC. 

You are probably correct. Although I do like LiveFirstDieLater's thread on it. I think it does raise a lot of interesting points, perhaps unlikely but I feel it is possible. I also hope that it is onto something. I don't really like the young kid trains up and becomes a powerful mystic to help save the realm storyline. I think it would be much more interesting if he was trained up... and then his body stolen by Boodraven the Abomination.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Makk said:

You are probably correct. Although I do like LiveFirstDieLater's thread on it. I think it does raise a lot of interesting points, perhaps unlikely but I feel it is possible. I also hope that it is onto something. I don't really like the young kid trains up and becomes a powerful mystic to help save the realm storyline. I think it would be much more interesting if he was trained up... and then his body stolen by Boodraven the Abomination.

I should have said, "I have zero doubts but acknowledge I could be totally wrong". 

I mean, I honestly do not have doubts, but I know it's possible I'm just very wrong.

[Lord Wraith]

On 7/2/2017 at 5:37 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't think there is any textural proof for a three-eyed Raven. 

Indeed. Bloodraven doesn't seem to react to the name in the books. Makes you wonder if a third party is at play.

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed. Bloodraven doesn't seem to react to the name in the books. Makes you wonder if a third party is at play.

I think @The Fattest Leech was talking about the change in moniker from 3EC to 3ER...

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 7/3/2017 at 10:09 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Every so often I see this idea popping up. Imo there's absolutely nothing to it and I have zero doubts that Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is the 3EC. 

This 

20 hours ago, Makk said:

You are probably correct. Although I do like LiveFirstDieLater's thread on it. I think it does raise a lot of interesting points, perhaps unlikely but I feel it is possible. I also hope that it is onto something. I don't really like the young kid trains up and becomes a powerful mystic to help save the realm storyline. I think it would be much more interesting if he was trained up... and then his body stolen by Boodraven the Abomination.

If you don't like the story as written, stop reading and write your own 

14 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed. Bloodraven doesn't seem to react to the name in the books. Makes you wonder if a third party is at play.

Who would it be and what purpose would it serve in the story? 

[Makk]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

If you don't like the story as written, stop reading and write your own 

Wow. Where did this come from? I wasn't even commenting on his work, I was commenting on speculation over where the plot might go.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 minutes ago, Makk said:

Wow. Where did this come from? I wasn't even commenting on his work, I was commenting on speculation over where the plot might go.

See quote below \/

22 hours ago, Makk said:

I also hope that it is onto something. I don't really like the young kid trains up and becomes a powerful mystic to help save the realm storyline. I think it would be much more interesting if he was trained up... and then his body stolen by Boodraven the Abomination.

 

[Makk]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

See quote below \/

 

I saw what you quoted. I just think your assertion that I should stop complaining about his work is utterly ridiculous to begin with and doubly so when I wasn't actually even doing that. I was talking about forum speculation over where the story could go.

[Dorian Martell's son]

Just now, Makk said:

I saw what you quoted. I just think your assertion that I should stop complaining about his work is utterly ridiculous to begin with and doubly so when I wasn't actually even doing that. I was talking about forum speculation over where the story could go.

It sounded more like you, and almost everyone else on the forum knows where the story will be going, and you do not like it.  Much like Ned being alive, Arthur Dayne being alive, Euron, Benjen and Dario being everyone else, or the CTOF being super evil and creating a weapon and waiting 8000 years to use it again after showing humans how to defeat it, the idea that Bloodraven is manipulating  Bran to somehow steal his broken body is an interesting exercise, but highly unlikely, to the point that I will bet money that it's  going to happen. 

[Ser Dood]

20 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It sounded more like you, and almost everyone else on the forum knows where the story will be going, and you do not like it.  Much like Ned being alive, Arthur Dayne being alive, Euron, Benjen and Dario being everyone else, or the CTOF being super evil and creating a weapon and waiting 8000 years to use it again after showing humans how to defeat it, the idea that Bloodraven is manipulating  Bran to somehow steal his broken body is an interesting exercise, but highly unlikely, to the point that I will bet money that it's  going to happen. 

You sound like you are having a bad day and you are projecting that onto Others.  Maybe you are the Great Other, or just the Great Jerk? 

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 minutes ago, Ser Dood said:

You sound like you are having a bad day and you are projecting that onto Others.  Maybe you are the Great Other, or just the Great Jerk? 

So, did you have to work on that one, or did it just come to you? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On 7/5/2017 at 1:35 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

This 

If you don't like the story as written, stop reading and write your own 

Who would it be and what purpose would it serve in the story? 

Howland Reed? The Green Men on the Isle of Faces? Bran himself finding a way to reach back through the Weirwoods to try and warn himself?

Setting aside the fact that asking what "purpose" something would serve is beginning a meaningless discussion based on opinion and preference... The purpose of course would depend on who the three eyed crow is...

Maybe Bran was heading north when he should have been heading south? (Of course SOME people need to go north to go south...)

Maybe the Children of the Forrest aren't as unified as we are lead to believe... perhaps the Isle of Faces has the "friendly" children who made a pact with men and helped raise the Wall, where the "death to mankind" Children live north of the Wall and somehow are related to the return of the White Walkers. So the Three Eyed Crow is being projected from the God's Eye.

Maybe Bloodraven was wrong about being able to reach back in time... maybe Bran is more powerful.

Maybe not...

but it's ridiculously suspicious that Bloodraven doesn't know what Bran is talking about when he asks him straight up (just like he asked Sam to a similar response) if he's the three eyed crow. The crow in the dream clearly knows it's flying, and likes corn... I find it impossible to believe Bloodraven would respond like this if it was really him.

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. 

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

Instead of remembering the chapter long conversation he had with Bran, and repeated other visits to his dreams, Bloodraven (just like Sam) assumes he means the Nights Watch. In addition, he "watched", "saw", "heard", but never spoke or pecked face.

 

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

-from Bran's Fall

 

of course this Weirwood appears repeatedly in dreams to Bran.

 

But on a more philosophical level I'm suspicious of the man who says this (in a voice described nothing like the 3 eyed crow's):

 

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 

When Bran's dad, Honorable Ned, says:

 

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" 

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

 

And Old Nan tells us:

 

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

...

Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

 

Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the Nights Watch for 13 years before flying down from the wall (abandoning his post). He was sent there for violating his oath and maybe guest right by betraying a Blackfyre. He slept with his half sister. He killed members of his own blood...

 

Did I miss any sins against the Old Gods?

 

In conclusion, I don't know who exactly the Three Eyed Crow is, but if we're betting on wether or not it's BloodRaven then no question I'll take that bet...

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

51 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Howland Reed? The Green Men on the Isle of Faces? Bran himself finding a way to reach back through the Weirwoods to try and warn himself?

Setting aside the fact that asking what "purpose" something would serve is beginning a meaningless discussion based on opinion and preference... The purpose of course would depend on who the three eyed crow is...

Maybe Bran was heading north when he should have been heading south? (Of course SOME people need to go north to go south...)

Maybe the Children of the Forrest aren't as unified as we are lead to believe... perhaps the Isle of Faces has the "friendly" children who made a pact with men and helped raise the Wall, where the "death to mankind" Children live north of the Wall and somehow are related to the return of the White Walkers. So the Three Eyed Crow is being projected from the God's Eye.

Maybe Bloodraven was wrong about being able to reach back in time... maybe Bran is more powerful.

Maybe not...

but it's ridiculously suspicious that Bloodraven doesn't know what Bran is talking about when he asks him straight up (just like he asked Sam to a similar response) if he's the three eyed crow. The crow in the dream clearly knows it's flying, and likes corn... I find it impossible to believe Bloodraven would respond like this if it was really him.

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck. 

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

Instead of remembering the chapter long conversation he had with Bran, and repeated other visits to his dreams, Bloodraven (just like Sam) assumes he means the Nights Watch. In addition, he "watched", "saw", "heard", but never spoke or pecked face.

 

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

-from Bran's Fall

 

of course this Weirwood appears repeatedly in dreams to Bran.

 

But on a more philosophical level I'm suspicious of the man who says this (in a voice described nothing like the 3 eyed crow's):

 

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

 

When Bran's dad, Honorable Ned, says:

 

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" 

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

 

And Old Nan tells us:

 

The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

...

Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

 

Bloodraven was Lord Commander of the Nights Watch for 13 years before flying down from the wall (abandoning his post). He was sent there for violating his oath and maybe guest right by betraying a Blackfyre. He slept with his half sister. He killed members of his own blood...

 

Did I miss any sins against the Old Gods?

 

In conclusion, I don't know who exactly the Three Eyed Crow is, but if we're betting on wether or not it's BloodRaven then no question I'll take that bet...

 

 

So, to be sure I have this straight, Someone, not Bloodraven sent the three eyed crow visions to Bran and dreams to Jojen. The Three eyed crow helps bran open his third eye and greensight. Jojen then leads his sister and Bran to the cave where the three eyed crow lives. They are met by children of the forest who are expecting them. They are introduced to a man in a tree, the last greenseer who, when asked if he is the three eyed crow, he answers in the affirmative,  speaks about watching Bran's family from his grandparents and how he visited bran in a dream and could not meet him so the three young people must make a perilous journey north, and therefore that means Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow because bloodraven did not specifically mention pecking at bran's head? 
 

[ravenous reader]

20 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

when asked if he is the three eyed crow, he answers in the affirmative

No, he doesn't technically, despite the hesitantly-given 'aye'.  Bran asks him if he is the three-eyed crow, to which he, after one of GRRM's favorite cagey literary devices, the ellipsis (DOT, DOT, DOT...so stew on that, folks..!), finally says, rather unconvincingly, that he is -- or at least was 'once' (with the implication that this is no longer the case)-- a crow, not the crow.  The difference between the definite vs. indefinite articles ('the' vs. 'a') is significant, as is the discrepancy between the present vs. past tense of the question posed vs. answer given, respectively; together with the fact that, as @LiveFirstDieLater has pointed out, Bloodraven doesn't have three eyes; if anything, he is a one-eyed crow, or only one of the crow's three eyes.  Besides all that, he is a 'raven' not a crow!

[Makk]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

They are introduced to a man in a tree, the last greenseer who, when asked if he is the three eyed crow, he answers in the affirmative,

He doesn't answer in the affirmative. He is puzzled and almost seeks clarification about what Bran is talking about, then assumes he was thinking it was referring to him being in the nightswatch.

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

speaks about watching Bran's family from his grandparents and how he visited bran in a dream and could not meet him so the three young people must make a perilous journey north, and therefore that means Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow because bloodraven did not specifically mention pecking at bran's head?

This was addressed in the post above.  When Bran is falling he is talking to the 3-eyed crow obviously the 3-eyed crow sees him, but there seems to be another presence watching...

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

The suggestion here is that Bloodraven is watching through the tree, not the 3E Crow.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, to be sure I have this straight (you don't), Someone, not Bloodraven sent the three eyed crow visions to Bran and dreams to Jojen. The Three eyed crow helps bran open his third eye and greensight (does it? Seems to me when the three eyed crow pecks Bran he forgets or loses his sight) Jojen then leads his sister and Bran to the cave where the three eyed crow lives (Jojen misinterprets everything, almost literally) . They are met by children of the forest who are expecting them (I don't deny that Blood Raven has "the sight", he can see the past for sure and maybe the future) . They are introduced to a man in a tree, the last greenseer who, when asked if he is the three eyed crow, he answers in the affirmative,  speaks about watching Bran's family from his grandparents and how he visited bran in a dream and could not meet him so the three young people must make a perilous journey north, and therefore that means Bloodraven is not the three eyed crow because bloodraven did not specifically mention pecking at bran's head? 
 

As others pointed out he did not answer in the affirmative.

Also, "The last greenseer" is pretty fucking suspicious if he's claiming to be training Bran to be the next greenseer.

But to be clear, you think he's the three eyed crow because you trust Jojen's assessment, after all, he seems happy about the way things turned out? And never misinterprets dreams he has? I'm doubtful at best.

Also, fun fact, the phrase "the crow calling the raven black" or some veriant of it is in every book and even makes it into Dunk and Egg.

How much are we betting?

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

No, he doesn't technically, despite the hesitantly-given 'aye'.  Bran asks him if he is the three-eyed crow, to which he, after one of GRRM's favorite cagey literary devices, the ellipsis (DOT, DOT, DOT...so stew on that, folks..!), finally says, rather unconvincingly, that he is -- or at least was 'once' (with the implication that this is no longer the case)-- a crow, not the crow.  The difference between the definite vs. indefinite articles ('the' vs. 'a') is significant, as is the discrepancy between the present vs. past tense of the question posed vs. answer given, respectively; together with the fact that, as @LiveFirstDieLater has pointed out, Bloodraven doesn't have three eyes; if anything, he is a one-eyed crow, or only one of the crow's three eyes.  Besides all that, he is a 'raven' not a crow!

He technically does, admitting that "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams."