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Col Cinders

Tyrion - Sansa reunion

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5 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Not so sure... okay, call it survival but she started to undress for Tyrion...to me that was both survival and duty; more duty in fact because before hand he had saved her from Joffrey's wrath despite possible consequences for himself...

Sure, but a sense of duty didn't imbue Book Sansa with any sense of loyalty to her husband, and she responded to her marriage by doubling down on her escape plan (and in the show, ditching him at the PW when shit hit the fan). Not that Tyrion deserved her loyalty given that he was an enemy of her family who married her against her will and all, but the contrast with how Catelyn dealt with marrying a man she didn't love--and who promptly fathered a bastard on another woman as far as she knew--is, well, stark.  Book Sansa also balked at the idea of marrying Sweetrobin for duty. Nor did a sense of duty stop Sansa from tattling on Ned to Cersei in AGOT; she did it because she wanted Joffrey, even though her duty to her father required obedience. She was immediately entranced with the idea of marrying a Tyrell, even though the Tyrells had helped the Lannisters crush her family; a sense of duty didn't stop her there, either. Sansa wants what Sansa wants, and duty doesn't enter into it.

As I said, Sansa's never been much for duty when it comes to something or someone she wants (or, as with her marriage to Tyrion, something she doesn't want). So why would duty lead her to marry if she has no interest in doing so otherwise? Sansa doesn't care and has never cared about duty first and foremost, either in the books or the show; TV Sansa got back Winterfell because it's what she wanted, not because she felt a sense of obligation. If Sansa remarries, which to me is looking unlikely, it will be because it's what she wants, not out of a sense of duty to anyone or anything. 

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1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I could pm you both; I was orally raped (made to do a blow job by fear of a knife whilst walking back from my ex-husbands place),  You will never believe this because I didn't either, at the time.  I was a little drunk after a gathering and a complete stranger, who didn't even attempt to talk to me took me from behind with a knife!!!  I always thought I would have just submitted so I didn't get killed... I didn't!  I shouted my lungs out!!!  Like in HBO, the right guys came to save me!!!  Seriously, reality is way better than fiction lol!  I shouted so hard a neighbour call the police.  When the police arrived, the abuser wanted me to say I was his girlfirend!  Fuck no!!! He made stories up, like I was a prostitute.  Futile since I am a lawyer, picked on the wrong victim lol and I pointed out to the Jury that even if that had been the case, it is irrelevant since the issue is consent lol

Okay, where I am going from here.  Okay, no way that my ordeal was anything like Ramsay to Sansa but no way that has put me off men or sex, simply off people who use sexual violence as a weapon to make themselves feel better...

My story was on the local paper and can provide evidence if anyone, not saying, but in case, thinks I am being a drama queen or something.

Rape, even lower level rape is horrible and very different from, say, someone kissing you in a club tentatively or something and you telling them to fuck off, not remotely the same!

To me, wishing for and fancying is no crime at all if you don't act upon it...

BTW, since he was so intent on denying medical evidence, he got originally 14 years for his troubles!!!  Lol way too much; even I could see that. used more tax-payers money and got it down to 7 eventually lol but I would have liked to see his face when he was told of the first sentence.  He pissed the Judge well and truly by his lies and overall misogyny (judge was male by the way) :)

lol almost forgot the point I was making; okay nothing like what Sansa in the show went through but after all that, although not in a hurry to meet anyone, if the right person comes alone...  If I were never to have sex again, people like the rapist would have won!!!

I'm really sorry that you had to experience that but I'm glad it ended well!

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26 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Sure, but a sense of duty didn't imbue Book Sansa with any sense of loyalty to her husband, and she responded to her marriage by doubling down on her escape plan (and in the show, ditching him at the PW when shit hit the fan). Not that Tyrion deserved her loyalty given that he was an enemy of her family who married her against her will and all, but the contrast with how Catelyn dealt with marrying a man she didn't love--and who promptly fathered a bastard on another woman as far as she knew--is, well, stark.  Book Sansa also balked at the idea of marrying Sweetrobin for duty. Nor did a sense of duty stop Sansa from tattling on Ned to Cersei in AGOT; she did it because she wanted Joffrey, even though her duty to her father required obedience. She was immediately entranced with the idea of marrying a Tyrell, even though the Tyrells had helped the Lannisters crush her family; a sense of duty didn't stop her there, either. Sansa wants what Sansa wants, and duty doesn't enter into it.

As I said, Sansa's never been much for duty when it comes to something or someone she wants (or, as with her marriage to Tyrion, something she doesn't want). So why would duty lead her to marry if she has no interest in doing so otherwise? Sansa doesn't care and has never cared about duty first and foremost, either in the books or the show; TV Sansa got back Winterfell because it's what she wanted, not because she felt a sense of obligation. If Sansa remarries, which to me is looking unlikely, it will be because it's what she wants, not out of a sense of duty to anyone or anything. 

I view all these events differently but not saying I am right or you are lol.  Yes, she escaped but soon realised her own words "possibly to come to worse" or something of that ilk when LF killed Dontos.  Now, my premise is that the circumstances are very, very different now and she is almost as powerful as Tyrion in her own right, so no one is going to make her do anything.  Still digressing somewhat lol

Tyrion was not undeserving but she couldn't know that; she didn't know he was ignorant re Red Wedding and that was the fundamental deal breaker, not that anyone could blame her lol!

Sansa in the books is acting as a sort of nanny for Robin, but yes in the TWOW chapter she said she much rather be with Tyrion that him! (and that wasn't really a compliment to Tyrion either lol, although she thought fondly of him at times).  When she wanted Joffrey and being Queen was like a 10 year old self who could not see past handsome princes and castles.  She has come a long way from that, hence I sometimes get frustrated when people (not saying you) keep bringing up Lady and the butcher boy etc.  Yes, she was wrong and it was horrible but she is not that person any more...  With the Tyrells, yeah, she fancied Loras like mad just by the looks, had never interacted much with him.  Wyllas sounds like a decent enough guy and hey anywhere away from KL???  I don't see how you can honestly want someone you haven't met.  Okay, in today's days, one you have met online say, to me is one you have met the personality of, in that universe, no internet, no letters passed between them, to her he was just a better prospect presented by marketing director, Margaery lol

Not sure where that leaves us in this conversation but must go to bed lol  Very enjoyable chat though :)

 

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1 hour ago, Jane99 said:

I tend to think that duty will be the only thing to get her to marry again. She's certainly got no personal inclination for it at the moment - who can blame her - and the very thoughtful costuming is an indication of that, as I think someone already pointed out.

But one of Sansa's consistent desires throughout the series is for children. And to be blunt, assuming Westeros survives the winter, the Starks need children. There's only three of them left! If they don't start reproducing this is the last generation of House Stark.

Bran can't have kids. Arya has shown no desire for marriage or motherhood and there's no guarantee she'll ever be in a position to have them. That leaves Sansa, who not only wants kids but, as she's Lady of Winterfell, has the responsibility of getting and training an heir resting primarily on her.  

I think if she could find a suitable husband she'd grit her teeth and marry for the survival of her House - but he would have to be suitable. Someone she could control. Someone kind, because she'd not open herself up to that sort of risk again. Someone who's lower than her on the political hierarchy so she retains her name and the control of Winterfell and never has to leave it. That rules out Tyrion and the young Lord Arryn, but surely there's a Northern lord with an appropriate sort of younger son out there.  

What I meant with no marrying out of duty is that she could marry someone she loves, and not someone arranging the marriage for her again. That way, she could have both things, duty but freedom. I don't think that anyone will snatch her freedom from now onon this matter. I agree she would like to have children, but I don't think she has expressed that desire since season 1.

If Bran survives and is able to control his powers like the other 3 eyed, he could also end up being Lord of Winterfell. I don't know if he could have children, but if he couldn't her sisters chldren would be his heirs.

As for Arya, it's true that she is not very into marriage now, I think the most likely thing is that she won't marry, but I wouldn't discard it completely, even having children.

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10 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'm really sorry that you had to experience that but I'm glad it ended well!

Thank you sweet!!! <3 I shouldn't have posted this here but I just had to say something when something, even if not directly connected, made me go back to that :)

 

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Could be, but the showrunners and writers when discussing that scene didn't talk about Nymeria as a leader; it was all about her wildness (and Arya's wildness), and how Nymeria is not cut out to be domesticated (no more than Arya is).

It's weird, Cogman says that Nymeria is doing the work of the Old Golds, and that both Nymeria and Arya are lone wolves (alhough Nymeria is leading a pack and says no to Arya to stay with her pack even if that is the contradiction of being a lone wolf) and they can't go back to what things were......and that this MIGHT be foreshadowing for Arya, while the showrunners say that Nymeria has her own life and that both of them are not domesticated.

Not sure what to think about that. I see the whole picture and Nymeria is being herself with a pack of her own that she chooses to protect. Arya will do the same, wherever it is. So the foreshadowing thing is that lone wolf is in the sense of being herself, (probably in an unconventional way) and she can't be the Arya of s1. There's a wide interpretation for that, but I think that these are the core elements considering what the three writers say and the foreshadowing line.

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18 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Thank you sweet!!! <3 I shouldn't have posted this here but I just had to say something when something, even if not directly connected, made me go back to that :)

 

Don't worry! Thank you for sharing it. It's normal that these things come up when discussing things that are related :) so don't apologise. It's not your fault. I'm glad it ended up well.

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2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Don't worry! Thank you for sharing it. It's normal that these things come up when discussing things that are related :) so don't apologise. It's not your fault. I'm glad it ended up well.

<3

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's weird, Cogman says that Nymeria is doing the work of the Old Golds, and that both Nymeria and Arya are lone wolves (alhough Nymeria is leading a pack and says no to Arya to stay with her pack even if that is the contradiction of being a lone wolf) and they can't go back to what things were......and that this MIGHT be foreshadowing for Arya, while the showrunners say that Nymeria has her own life and that both of them are not domesticated.

Not sure what to think about that. I see the whole picture and Nymeria is being herself with a pack of her own that she chooses to protect. Arya will do the same, wherever it is. So the foreshadowing thing is that lone wolf is in the sense of being herself, (probably in an unconventional way) and she can't be the Arya of s1. There's a wide interpretation for that, but I think that these are the core elements considering what the three writers say and the foreshadowing line.

lol super tired so will leave it for tomorrow but I reckon Nymeria is going to play a part with UnCat...

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1 hour ago, greensleeves said:

From Clapton's Making game of Thrones article:

I don't interpret this statement as her not wanting touch... just that she wants to control it. I wonder if her clothing will change at all when Littlefinger is no longer around. 

Ah, so yeah then iff it's a message to Litlefingerit would make sense that her costumes change for s8. Thanks for the quote.

I suspected it had to do with him, as I had explained before knowing this. 

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40 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Ah, so yeah then iff it's a message to Litlefingerit would make sense that her costumes change for s8. Thanks for the quote.

I suspected it had to do with him, as I had explained before knowing this. 

I suspect Sansa won't change her wardrobe for something Margery-sque. It's winter up there;)

But probably her fashion choices would give a signal *Bad Company's Ready for Love plays in the background*

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12 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I suspect Sansa won't change her wardrobe for something Margery-sque. It's winter up there;)

But probably her fashion choices would give a signal *Bad Company's Ready for Love plays in the background*

hahaha yes not like Margaery, winter collection definitely!

yes, now that LF is not around she will wear whatever she prefers!

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I think Sansa is pretty much done with romance. She is the character I expect will just say fck romance. Maybe she'll do what Sophie wants and start dating girls

The Hound is out because the season finale pretty much foreshadowed his endgame is Cleganebowl, not any romance

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22 minutes ago, Commander Jon Snow said:

I think Sansa is pretty much done with romance. She is the character I expect will just say fck romance. Maybe she'll do what Sophie wants and start dating girls

Couldn't work out any worse than her heterosexuality has, that's for sure.

 

Quote

The Hound is out because the season finale pretty much foreshadowed his endgame is Cleganebowl, not any romance

I think some fans have asked "Why was Sandor brought back in the show if NOT to end up with Sansa?" The answer is, apparently, Cleganebowl. 

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6 minutes ago, Newstar said:

 

I think some fans have asked "Why was Sandor brought back in the show if NOT to end up with Sansa?" The answer is, apparently, Cleganebowl. 

or both things, episodes will be longer

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I think that Sansan could happen not because it was hinted recently, but because this was obviously avoided. 

Brienne refered to The Hound as "a man" when she told Sansa about Arya. Why? Sansa asked no further questions, though knowing whom her sister was traveling with is an important piece of information! And why would Brienne not tell her?

The BwB doesn't go to WF, though it would be reasonable. They could come there to pledge allegiance to Jon, who wants to defend the North and join his forces.

Brienne and The Hound never mentioned Sansa in their exchange. I even expected she would say "I'm here representing... a woman":D

So I think this reunion was deliberately postponed to s8 and would be significant.

The same thing is with Arya and Gendry. 

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15 hours ago, greensleeves said:

I'm trying to figure out who you mean here.

I assume Tyrion, Ramsay, and Littlefinger? But then which two of those count as "unattractive to put it mildly"?   Show!Tyrion isn't nearly as bad as Book!Tyrion. Aiden Gillan ain't that bad. Ramsay's actor is downright hot.

Joffrey was older but I wouldn't think he counts as an "older guy".

Dontos used to make her kiss him in the books (which isn't dissimilar to Little Fingers game). And then there was that singer that tried to rape her in the books.

Also she was briefly engaged to SweetRobin (but he's younger). Then there's Harrold Hardyng who ain't a peach but at least he's not Ramsay.

Sansa hasn't had romantic pairings so much as a series of awful men assaulting her.

 

Sansa's emotional/sexual development going through puberty into adolescence is probably rather messed up.  At a time when young girls in stable situations could negotiate the balance between propriety and their changing bodies and new sexual feelings, Sansa was being stripped and beaten for Robb's victories, protected then stalked by Sandor, pawed by Dontos, married to a much older man who she could not respond to, and taken and kissed by Littlefinger (which Sansa doesn't seem to have enjoyed so much as tolerated).  Then, when she was still in her teens, Sansa was badly abused and raped by Ramsay from her wedding night onward.  It's no wonder she's no longer the starry-eyed young girl dreaming of a prince charming, or even, perhaps, of any man giving her some degree of pleasure or children.  (it's interesting that in the books, Sandor seems to have been a catalyst for the limited sexual awakening Sansa did experience)

I could see Sansa eventually marrying as long as she gets a major (or the only) voice in the choice of the bridegroom.  Tyrion would, in my opinion, be a very long shot for that honor, but it's not totally impossible.

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Just now, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I think that Sansan could happen not because it was hinted recently, but because this was obviously avoided. 

Brienne refered to The Hound as "a man" when she told Sansa about Arya. Why? Sansa asked no further questions, though knowing whom her sister was traveling with is an important piece of information! And why would Brienne not tell her?

The BwB doesn't go to WF, though it would be reasonable. They would come there to pledge allegiance to Jon, who wants to defend the North.

Brienne and The Hound never mentioned Sansa in their exchange. I even thought she would say "I'm here representing a woman":D

So I think this reunion was deliberately postponed to s8 and would be significant.

The same thing is with Arya and Gendry. 

I think that the hints are there this season but they are subtle on purpose. Even contradictory if you take them literally like "I don't like gingers".

I agree with you. They postponed the reunion on purpose, so that LF was not there anymore. Whatever it happens, the meeting will be significant. Same with Arya/Gendry. As for this case a poster convinced me that there could also be extremely subtle hints in the dialogue (one in episode 6 and I found another in episode 7) that maybe were not on purpose but if you are a book reader and fan of Arya (like you have reread her chapters a lot) will come to your mind once you are told about them (and they are also about the "contrary" but in another way).

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14 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think that the hints are there this season but they are extremely subtle on purpose. Even contradictory if you take them literally like "I don't like gingers".

I agree with you. They postponed the reunion on purpose, so that LF was not there anymore. Whatever it happens, the meeting will be significant. Same with Arya/Gendrya. As for this case a poster convinced me that there are cold also also be extremely subtle hints in the dialogue (one in episode 6 and I found another in episode 7) that maybe were not on purpose but if you are a book reader and fan of Arya (like you have reread her chapters a lot) will come to your mind once you are told about them (and they are also about the "contrary" but in another way).

Interesting. What other hints on both reunions did you catch? 
I'm a book reader, but I haven't reread Arya's chapters for a while. 

And "I don like gingers" is a perfect example of Sandorspeak. No doubts. Especially that a trackable list of gingers in his life isn't long:D

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