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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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15 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

"You have to remember that I started writing this story in 1991 and I first met David Benioff and Dan Weiss in 2007. I was living with these characters and this world for 16 years before we even started working on the show. They’re pretty fixed in my mind and I’m not going to change anything because of the show, or reaction to the show, or what fans think. I’m just still writing the story that I set out to write in the early 1990s." - George 

"In the case of any of my novels, I know where I’m starting from, I know where I want to end up, more or less. I know some of the big turning points along the way, the stuff I’m building for, but you discover an awful lot along the way." - George

"Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don't know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I've known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who's going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who's gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who's gonna die and how they're gonna die, and who's gonna get married and all that. The major characters. Of course along the way I made up a lot of minor characters, you know, did I know in 1991 how Bronn, what was gonna happen to Bronn? No, I didn't even know there'd be a guy named Bronn." - George

“Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be," Benioff says in the April issue of Vanity Fair. "If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.” - D&D

Thanks. I take it the D&D quote is from a long while ago. So it will be interesting to see how their ending is compared to GRRM's, when he finishes the books.

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16 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

Thanks. I take it the D&D quote is from a long while ago. So it will be interesting to see how their ending is compared to GRRM's, when he finishes the books.

They've talked about it. 

Basically, they said that part of the endgame is GRRM's and part of it they have to make up because GRRM isn't sure about it or because they can't replicate it. 

So it won't be the exact same. We can only guess how similar it'll be but the gist of the main character's end points would be similarish.

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Maisie has done a number of interviews recently, so I couldn't tell you. The vibe I got from her talking about how she needed to get her brain around Arya's S8 arc, how she had to go back to the first season, etc. was that the ending was a WTF moment for her, and she had to view the series as a whole to make sense of it.

Eh, if a female character is killed off in a way that's an organic end to her arc, is it fridging? Sansa dying at Winterfell, the place she was once so desperate to escape in S1, would be the natural conclusion to her story. That it would fit nicely into a revenge mission to KL is a bonus.

 

True, but LOTR had a leisurely, long epilogue, so I think ASOIAF will as well.

 

Not only is Kit in Croatia, Emilia is not. She's heading to London, where she has an event on Thursday. Start your "Dany dies!!!!!" tinfoil now.

But is it organic to Sansa? I mean she's a main POV with an arc. You can't just kill her off because the WW came. I think Sansa rebuilding Winterfell after the war makes for a far more logical conclusion to her arc than her dying at home because of the ice zombies. Like Sansa's growth is all wasted if it's just to end there. This is why I don't put any stock in Arya dying either anymore. 

(It's different for Jon and Daenerys because their growth is preparation to be leaders during the War for the Dawn whereas Sansa feels like she's meant to be a leader after the War is done)

Jon Snow's chances went up and Daenerys' chances just went down. But I expect Emillia Clarke to show up to KL eventually considering the leaks about dragonfire going off in KL.

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58 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

But is it organic to Sansa? I mean she's a main POV with an arc. You can't just kill her off because the WW came. I think Sansa rebuilding Winterfell after the war makes for a far more logical conclusion to her arc than her dying at home because of the ice zombies. Like Sansa's growth is all wasted if it's just to end there. This is why I don't put any stock in Arya dying either anymore. 

(It's different for Jon and Daenerys because their growth is preparation to be leaders during the War for the Dawn whereas Sansa feels like she's meant to be a leader after the War is done)

Totally agree.  I don't put stock of either sister dying either.  I think Sansa will stay North and rebuild it while Arya will go South.  Its the opposite of what they expected or wanted at the start of the series.  I think that is where their endings are heading.

I have a crackship where I think Sansa won't marry again.  I think in both books and show she is tired of marriage and the fantasies relating to that.  I do think that she will have children though and find love.  I just don't see marriage in the cards for her anymore.  That the sibling who was the coolest against Jon will be the sibling that would have bastards. 

She is probably the only character who can get away with this.  The only other heirs of Winterfell and the North are Arya and Bran.  Neither will take it away from her.  Neither will care if her children are bastards since both love Jon. 

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14 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I've heard that the dragons were spotted strolling and window shopping in Belfast recently…

So jealous.  I wish I can mingle with dragons. :)

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1 hour ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

But is it organic to Sansa? I mean she's a main POV with an arc. You can't just kill her off because the WW came. I think Sansa rebuilding Winterfell after the war makes for a far more logical conclusion to her arc than her dying at home because of the ice zombies. Like Sansa's growth is all wasted if it's just to end there. This is why I don't put any stock in Arya dying either anymore. 

I suspect GRRM is sticking to his original ending, which going off the outline didn't include Sansa getting Winterfell. So either she winds up with something other than Winterfell (the Vale, say, although that's unlikely given what the show has done with the Vale), or she dies. I think the latter is more likely.

Arya on the other hand has a number of plot protections that Sansa doesn't: she's GRRM's fave female character, she's his wife's favourite character, and she's one of the "main five" the original outline stated would live through all three books. None of that applies to Sansa. 

12 minutes ago, goldenmaps said:

I have a crackship where I think Sansa won't marry again.  I think in both books and show she is tired of marriage and the fantasies relating to that.  I do think that she will have children though and find love.  I just don't see marriage in the cards for her anymore. 

If Sansa is in love and ruling the North in this scenario, why wouldn't she marry? As long as she marries down (even a minor lord), the children will bear the Stark name. Also, in the books, Sansa is now aware of just what it means to be a bastard; I'm guessing she wouldn't force that status on her kids if she could possibly avoid it.

ETA: The Twitter user who claimed to have spotted Kit was likely lying. Doesn't mean Kit won't show up in Dubrovnik, but this user, like Mirri Maaz Duur, is not a reliable source of information. Emilia's still heading back to London, though.

Edited by Newstar

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3 hours ago, Newstar said:

I suspect GRRM is sticking to his original ending, which going off the outline didn't include Sansa getting Winterfell. So either she winds up with something other than Winterfell (the Vale, say, although that's unlikely given what the show has done with the Vale), or she dies. I think the latter is more likely.

Arya on the other hand has a number of plot protections that Sansa doesn't: she's GRRM's fave female character, she's his wife's favourite character, and she's one of the "main five" the original outline stated would live through all three books. None of that applies to Sansa. 

If Sansa is in love and ruling the North in this scenario, why wouldn't she marry? As long as she marries down (even a minor lord), the children will bear the Stark name. Also, in the books, Sansa is now aware of just what it means to be a bastard; I'm guessing she wouldn't force that status on her kids if she could possibly avoid it.

ETA: The Twitter user who claimed to have spotted Kit was likely lying. Doesn't mean Kit won't show up in Dubrovnik, but this user, like Mirri Maaz Duur, is not a reliable source of information. Emilia's still heading back to London, though.

We don't know what his intentions were for the outline Sansa though so Sansa could very well have ended up with Winterfell by the end.

Although, I have a suspicion that the original intention was for her and Joffrey's baby to end up king with her as Queen-Regent which could've been adjusted to her ending up as queen. Maybe she even marries a legitimized Edric Storm.

Also the idea that GRRM didn't adjust for endpoints is incongruent with Arya being Jon's love interest in the outline unless it doesn't end up mattering because Jon ends up dying in the end or she dies or they decide not to get together.

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8 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

[snip]

I would also add these two quotes into the mix:

Quote

Luckily, we’ve been talking about this with George for a long time, ever since we saw this could happen, and we know where things are heading. And so we’ll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we’re heading towards the same destination. I kind of wish that there were some things we didn’t have to spoil, but we’re kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The show must go on. . .and that’s what we’re going to do.

-David Benioff, March 22, 2015

Quote

And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

-GRRM, May 18, 2015

Edited by Shmedricko

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David Nutter has been seen in Dubrovnik. So the scene is from episode 1, 2 or 4.

No Tycho Nestoris for this scene, though: Mark Gatiss is in London.

Filming started today, but no cast members have been spotted yet. Stay tuned.

 

13 hours ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

We don't know what his intentions were for the outline Sansa though so Sansa could very well have ended up with Winterfell by the end.

We have a pretty good idea of what was supposed to happen to Sansa. Outline Sansa bears Joffrey's child, and it's later mentioned that after Outline Joffrey's death, Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne. This would include Joffrey's child. Now, Sansa wouldn't be in the line of succession, but Outline Jaime would probably bump her off just to be sure on the off-chance she was pregnant, too. Nor is Sansa mentioned in the outline after the statement about Outline Jaime murdering everyone ahead of him in the line of succession. It points pretty strongly to Outline Sansa dying, which would of course mean that Winterfell was destined to go to someone else, and if GRRM is keeping to his original Sansa-less ending, well...

 

Quote

Although, I have a suspicion that the original intention was for her and Joffrey's baby to end up king with her as Queen-Regent which could've been adjusted to her ending up as queen.

Outline Joffrey's baby is murdered by Outline Jaime, so no, that was never the plan.

 

Quote

Also the idea that GRRM didn't adjust for endpoints is incongruent with Arya being Jon's love interest in the outline unless it doesn't end up mattering because Jon ends up dying in the end or she dies or they decide not to get together.

The outline never said that Jon and Arya end up together, only that their torment over their mutual passion is resolved by the revelation of Jon's true parentage. Dany and Jon were supposed to survive in the outline, though, so if Jon/Dany is endgame--and indications are strong right now that it is--and GRRM sticks with his original ending--which he has always claimed to be the case--then Jon/Dany was always endgame.

Edited by Newstar

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I think there's little to no chance of Sansa dying in Season 8. Sansa isn't going to do any fighting, so it makes sense that Sophie wouldn't film as much as characters that would. Also Sophie has been spotted filming in Belfast countless times over the past few months. 

I just don't get this huge hoopla about Sansa's death since Season 5. It's just not going to happen imo.

I think if a "big" character is going to die in the Winterfell set piece for Season 8.....Jorah, Davos, Melisandre, Brienne, Varys are much more likely to die than Sansa. 

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3 hours ago, Newstar said:

David Nutter has been seen in Dubrovnik. So the scene is from episode 1, 2 or 4.

No Tycho Nestoris for this scene, though: Mark Gatiss is in London.

Filming started today, but no cast members have been spotted yet. Stay tuned.

 

We have a pretty good idea of what was supposed to happen to Sansa. Outline Sansa bears Joffrey's child, and it's later mentioned that after Outline Joffrey's death, Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne. This would include Joffrey's child. Now, Sansa wouldn't be in the line of succession, but Outline Jaime would probably bump her off just to be sure on the off-chance she was pregnant, too. Nor is Sansa mentioned in the outline after the statement about Outline Jaime murdering everyone ahead of him in the line of succession. It points pretty strongly to Outline Sansa dying, which would of course mean that Winterfell was destined to go to someone else, and if GRRM is keeping to his original Sansa-less ending, well...

 

Outline Joffrey's baby is murdered by Outline Jaime, so no, that was never the plan.

 

The outline never said that Jon and Arya end up together, only that their torment over their mutual passion is resolved by the revelation of Jon's true parentage. Dany and Jon were supposed to survive in the outline, though, so if Jon/Dany is endgame--and indications are strong right now that it is--and GRRM sticks with his original ending--which he has always claimed to be the case--then Jon/Dany was always endgame.

for all we know, Outline Sansa escaped King's Landing just like the actual Sansa ended up doing so. 

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4 hours ago, Newstar said:

 

We have a pretty good idea of what was supposed to happen to Sansa. Outline Sansa bears Joffrey's child, and it's later mentioned that after Outline Joffrey's death, Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to gain the throne. This would include Joffrey's child. Now, Sansa wouldn't be in the line of succession, but Outline Jaime would probably bump her off just to be sure on the off-chance she was pregnant, too. Nor is Sansa mentioned in the outline after the statement about Outline Jaime murdering everyone ahead of him in the line of succession. It points pretty strongly to Outline Sansa dying, which would of course mean that Winterfell was destined to go to someone else, and if GRRM is keeping to his original Sansa-less ending, well...

 

Outline Joffrey's baby is murdered by Outline Jaime, so no, that was never the plan.

 

The outline never said that Jon and Arya end up together, only that their torment over their mutual passion is resolved by the revelation of Jon's true parentage. Dany and Jon were supposed to survive in the outline, though, so if Jon/Dany is endgame--and indications are strong right now that it is--and GRRM sticks with his original ending--which he has always claimed to be the case--then Jon/Dany was always endgame.

That's taking a leap though. You're making a big assumption that Jaime would kill Sansa on the off-chance that she were pregnant. For all we know, he could've married Sansa himself or even just force fed her an abortive herb.

 

The revelation of Jon's true parentage resolving Arya and Jon's relationship kind of proves that they were meant to end up together even if one of them were to die in the end. Like how would Jon's true parentage push Jon and Arya away from each other?

Arya: Ohhh, I liked you when I thought we were siblings but we're cousins instead. There goes all my attraction.

Jon: Yep, but there's someone even more closely related to me and you know I got that dragon blood. Gonna go bang my aunt now, cuz.

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The Dubrovnik Times reports that filming in Dubrovnik began earlier this morning “under a veil of secrecy,” so much so that we have no idea which actors are involved, but according to Dulist, Kit and Isaac were spotted there. We know today’s shoot involved one or more scenes from episodes one, two and/or four, as those are the ones David Nutter is directing, and that Cersei is still in charge of the capital. The locations turned into sets are Dubrovnik’s West Harbor, a familiar site between the Bokar and Lovrijenac fortresses, and the Bokar fortress itself, which has also been used often in the show, most recently when Cersei and Jaime awaited Euron’s fleet in the premiere of season seven. According to The Dubrovnik Times, other locations are rumored to be involved in the following days. It's possible that there will be night shoots. [Source: X, X]

5 hours ago, Newstar said:

David Nutter has been seen in Dubrovnik. So the scene is from episode 1, 2 or 4.

No Tycho Nestoris for this scene, though: Mark Gatiss is in London.

Filming started today, but no cast members have been spotted yet. Stay tuned.

Episode 4 is a good bet, and sometimes they use footage by one director for another episode. 

King's Landing is still under construction. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

That's taking a leap though. You're making a big assumption that Jaime would kill Sansa on the off-chance that she were pregnant. For all we know, he could've married Sansa himself or even just force fed her an abortive herb.

 

The revelation of Jon's true parentage resolving Arya and Jon's relationship kind of proves that they were meant to end up together even if one of them were to die in the end. Like how would Jon's true parentage push Jon and Arya away from each other?

Arya: Ohhh, I liked you when I thought we were siblings but we're cousins instead. There goes all my attraction.

Jon: Yep, but there's someone even more closely related to me and you know I got that dragon blood. Gonna go bang my aunt now, cuz.

Very strong political reasons to unite two competing targ claims to avoid civil war. Especually following the targ civil war that would have taken place in the second volume.

Not saying it is definite as both possibilities exist in the original outline and first time i read i lept to jon marrying arya conclusion, but jon finding out he is aegon targaryen would create political reasons to marry his aunt out of duty

Edited by jcmontea

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43 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

That's taking a leap though. You're making a big assumption that Jaime would kill Sansa on the off-chance that she were pregnant. For all we know, he could've married Sansa himself or even just force fed her an abortive herb.

The revelation of Jon's true parentage resolving Arya and Jon's relationship kind of proves that they were meant to end up together even if one of them were to die in the end. Like how would Jon's true parentage push Jon and Arya away from each other?

If it wasn't a tipoff to Sansa's death, the outline would have specified. We're meant to read between the lines, because that's the last time the outline mentions anything in reference to Sansa. If she escapes or is forcibly married to Jaime, why not mention it? Instead, Outline Jaime murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession, which would certainly include Sansa's son, and murders Sansa as well. 

The bit about Outline Jaime murdering everyone ahead of him in the line of succession has been discussed to death. However, there's another clue that Outline Sansa dies.

The outline also says that Outline Tyrion goes into exile after being framed for the murders by Jaime, making common cause with the "surviving Starks" against Outline Jaime, and falls hopelessly in love with Arya. The phrase "[making] common cause with the surviving Starks" implies that all the surviving Starks are in one place to plot, plan and unite against Jaime. That can't be true if Outline Sansa is still trapped in KL with Jaime; she wouldn't be in any position to make common cause with Tyrion, but all the "surviving Starks" do. Therefore, Outline Sansa's not one of the surviving Starks. Therefore, Outline Sansa was murdered by Jaime.

(It also seems odd that Outline Tyrion would fall for Arya and not Sansa, assuming GRRM always planned on making Sansa the more beautiful sister and always planned on making Tyrion as shallow as ASOIAF Tyrion turned out to be, if Sansa were still alive around the time Outline Tyrion fell for Arya.)

If GRRM planned on bumping her off in the outline, she is going to die in ASOIAF as well. All the named outline characters who died--Ned, Robb, Cat, etc.--have died in the published books, even if the circumstances of their deaths were different. GRRM spoke not too long ago about a character he always knew was doomed but had only decided very recently on how that character was going to die. I don't think he was referencing Sansa, but the statement confirms that GRRM has characters in mind whom he always knows are doomed, just as the outline spells out that there are certain characters who have always been safe. Sansa could very well fall into the "always been doomed" category.

Even assuming GRRM intended Sansa to survive at the time of the outline, which I doubt, she was a relatively minor character, and GRRM has admitted that he came up with Sansa to stir up conflict within the otherwise harmonious Stark family, suggesting that she wasn't otherwise  needed for the story he already had in mind (and the ending that he claims to have known since 1991, two years before the outline was written in 1993). With 3/5 Starks in the outline big five guaranteed to survive, one of them would have wound up with Winterfell, not Sansa. GRRM may have elevated Sansa's prominence in ASOIAF relative to the outline, but if he's sticking to the same ending, then Sansa won't wind up with Winterfell.

And before anyone comes at me with "GRRM said the outline was some shit he made up"...

1. GRRM only said that after the outline leaked;

2. GRRM has said that he didn't expect the outline to be published for many years (either 20 or 40, can't recall);

3. GRRM's been saying for years that he has always had the same ending in mind (before the outline leaked); and

4. It's clear that for all the divergences between the outline and ASOIAF, and yes, there are many, it's not just some shit he made up: the major deaths are the same, the main characters are the same, several key plot points are the same, and the outline clearly implies that Ned isn't Jon's father. So not just some shit he made up.

TLDR: Sansa's probably doomed, and even if she isn't, she's not ending up with Winterfell.

Edited by Newstar

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8 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Very strong political reasons to unite two competing targ claims to avoid civil war. Especually following the targ civil war that would have taken place in the second volume.

Not saying it is definite as both possibilities exist in the original outline and first time i read i lept to jon marrying arya conclusion, but jon finding out he is aegon targaryen would create political reasons to marry his aunt out of duty

A Targ civil war would only happen if Jon was interested in ruling Westeros and if wanted to let his little secret out.

If he's not then there's no reason to expect a civil war.

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9 minutes ago, Newstar said:

If it wasn't a tipoff to Sansa's death, the outline would have specified. We're meant to read between the lines, because that's the last time the outline mentions anything in reference to Sansa. If she escapes, why not mention it? Instead, Outline Jaime murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession, which would certainly include Sansa's son, and murders Sansa as well. The outline also says that Outline Tyrion goes into exile after being framed for the murders by Jaime, making common cause with "surviving Starks" against Jaime, and falls hopelessly in love with Arya. If Outline Sansa were to escape with Tyrion and is part of the "surviving Starks," why not mention it? 

If GRRM planned on bumping her off in the outline, she is going to die in ASOIAF as well. All the named outline characters who died--Ned, Robb, Cat, etc.--have died in the published books, even if the circumstances of their deaths were different. GRRM spoke not too long ago about a character he always knew was doomed but had only decided very recently on how that character was going to die. I don't think he was referencing Sansa, but the statement confirms that GRRM has characters in mind whom he always knows are doomed, just as the outline spells out that there are certain characters who have always been safe. Sansa could very well fall into the "always been doomed" category.

Even assuming GRRM intended Sansa to survive at the time of the outline, which I doubt, she was a relatively minor character, and GRRM has admitted that he came up with Sansa to stir up conflict within the otherwise harmonious Stark family, suggesting that she wasn't otherwise  needed for the story he already had in mind (and the ending that he claims to have known since 1991, two years before the outline was written in 1993). With 3/5 Starks in the outline big five guaranteed to survive, one of them would have wound up with Winterfell, not Sansa. GRRM may have elevated Sansa's prominence in ASOIAF relative to the outline, but if he's sticking to the same ending, then Sansa won't wind up with Winterfell.

And before anyone comes at me with "GRRM said the outline was some shit he made up"...

1. GRRM only said that after the outline leaked;

2. GRRM has said that he didn't expect the outline to be published for many years (either 20 or 40, can't recall);

3. GRRM's been saying for years that he has always had the same ending in mind (before the outline leaked); and

4. It's clear that for all the divergences between the outline and ASOIAF, and yes, there are many, it's not just some shit he made up: the major deaths are the same, the main characters are the same, several key plot points are the same, and the outline clearly implies that Ned isn't Jon's father. So not just some shit he made up.

TLDR: Sansa's probably doomed, and even if she isn't, she's not ending up with Winterfell.

"The tale grew in the telling."

Why would the outline have specified? It's an outline not a novel. An outline designed to get publishers interested which GRRM has said he made up on the fly.

If Cat and Ned are dead, the terms surviving Starks would still apply.

I doubt Sansa was a minor character even in the outline by virtue of the fact that she's actually mentioned in the outline, strikes a friendship with Tyrion and is married to Joffrey. A minor character is someone like Bronn.

I mean what are you going to think if the series ends with Sansa ruling Winterfell? That GRRM lied? Or that you were wrong?

Edited by Lord_Ravenstone

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4 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

A Targ civil war would only happen if Jon was interested in ruling Westeros and if wanted to let his little secret out.

If he's not then there's no reason to expect a civil war.

Sure. But not sure what your point is. 

We don’t know what way the outline was going. The question is does the outline necessarily mean Arya and Jon are end game in it and the answer is not necessarily. 

Certainly the idea could have been for Jon not to want to rule. Or it could not have. Both possibilities exist. 

Also, people can take up someone’s cause even if they don’t want to rule so they could still be a threat to stability. 

That is part of the reasin Maester Aemon took the black

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