The Order of the Greenhand: N+A=J

[cgrav]

11 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

it's a blue flower, not a rose and it fills the air with sweetness, which is something Jon will never do.

Then why does it matter? Why is it on the page?

It seems more than a little sloppy to establish the symbol as very much belonging to Lyanna, and then use it to refer to something completely different. Even if there's meant to be a connection between Lyanna and this lake, that's extremely obscure background stuff that was written years after Clash was published. I don't find it credible that GRRM would put a symbol at the center of several important scenes if it meant to refer to something so obscure that isn't even necessary to tell the story. 

In fact there's two times that winter roses are mentioned outside the same paragraph as Lyanna: Dany's HotU vision, and the Bael the Bard story... where it's used to symbolize a daughter of Winterfell who eloped.

The story in the books stands alone. We don't need the World background or prequel novellas to make sense of ASOIF. All that is supplementary material that should confirm the themes in the book, and is frankly meant for us nerds who are interested in the exploring the story's full depth.

[falcotron]

2 hours ago, King Maegor said:

Jon being eligible to be the Sword of the Morning, wielding Dawn and leading mankind to victory in the New Battle for the Dawn fits with his character better than possibly having a claim to a throne that doesn't matter anymore

Except that title can only be given to knights of House Dayne. Jon is not a knight. And having a Dayne mother wouldn't make him a member of House Dayne; House membership is paternal, except in the cases where there are no men and a woman inherits and gives her heirs her name, and I doubt Ashara is going to be inheriting House Dayne when Edric is alive, as well as other candidates, while she (at least as far as anyone knows) isn't. And even if Jon were secretly a knight of House Dayne, which he isn't, it wouldn't matter anyway, since it's a secret to Edric (who thinks Jon is Wylla's son) and the rest of the House. And, finally, if your theory hinges on Arthur being Mance, and therefore being a much better fighter than Jon, it would make no sense for the family to take Dawn away from Arthur and give it to Jon.

1 hour ago, King Maegor said:

Why does the Song of Ice and Fire need to be a person?  none of the other poetic titles like that are people … being named the Sword of the Morning by House Dayne, who only gives that title to members of their family who are worthy of it.

You realize you start this paragraph arguing that none of the poetic titles are people, and end it arguing that Jon must be Ashara's son because he has to fit a poetic title, right?

Up to this point, I was pretty sure you were just some stalkery fanboy in love with one of the Greenhand people or something, but now I suspect you're just a troll.

[King Maegor]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

NONE of the free folk are willing to kneel to anyone they do not chose as their won leader. This is not a Mance only event. And the fact that the free folk do this is purposely to show that the north and Dorne are more alike than any of the other five kingsdoms... as it is said in the World book. This lack of kneeling is ingrained into the history of both regions with multiple book examples. This is another example of how the people in the ootgh video series either do not research all of the text fully, or they purposely omit the parts that poke holes in their theories.

The fact that the north and Dorne are so alike in many ways is very important to the current northern plot line.

And they are very condescending to commenters, whether those commenters are just simply disagreeing with them or bashing them, more of then than not OotGH starts in with the "well, you are just not paying attention", as if they are the only ones smart enough to figure out the author's intent. Radio Westeros is at least humble enough to put forth several ideas on some hard to crack theories, admit when the theory did not originate with them, and even makes it clear when the "conclusion" is still open ended, and for readers to make up their own mind.

so you're saying George used the phrase "knees don't bend easily" to describe wildlings?  no he didn't...I looked it up on a search of ice and fire when I watched their video last year and they are right.  it is only used by Arthur Dayne and to describe Mance Rayder.  The Order of the Green Hand doesn't talk about other people's theories.  They come up with their own, so comparing them to people who read Reddit posts and talk about other people's theories doesn't really make sense.  And they were quoting Ramsay from the show when they said, "you haven't been paying attention."  It was a joke, and if you find that offensive, you should see the ridiculous things people say to them in their comment section.  Someone actually threatened to hurt them and somehow figured out where they live and posted it online back in the winter

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

32 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

Promise Me Ned from a bed of blood, a blue flower growing from a chink in the ice and filling the air with sweetness, Rhaegar Loved his Lyanna and the realm bled for it, Ned's an honorable guy that wouldn't cheat.  what else? none of that points to Jon.  it simply indicates that Rhaegar and Lyanna could have had a child

Well Ned being an honorable guy that wouldn't cheat does point to Jon not being his son right? 

If R&L had a child & Ned was at the ToJ after she had said child, but the child he presented to his wife as his bastard Jon Snow is not that child - then who is? 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

And just a quick note of their Val and Jon are siblings theory video... I discussed this back in April on a different thread. They just have so many basic pieces of information wrong, and it isn't only this particular video. It is in each of the 4 or 5 of their videos I watched.

One of the main things that is not correct is what they mentioned with the eye color changing for both Ned and Val. They tried to use a quote by Catelyn where she was looking at Ned's bones and reminiscing about how his eyes were "fog grey" and then "stone grey". What they were totally missing, or intentionally fudging, is the fact that this is describing emotion, mood, and personality in this scene. It was not that Ned's eye literally changed color.

Now, Jon does describe Val's eye color as first grey, then blue, and this is most likely for reasons that are definitely not linked to Ned's eyes sometimes being "soft" and sometimes "hard". There are other people in the story with (purposeful) eye color changing and it is related to the sea, and we all know by now that the wall and the true north above the wall are both described as water and the sea over and over. This is for another reason that has nothing to do with Ned.

Also, Ashara had dark/black hair, and Ned had brown hair, so where would Val's (important) honey colored hair come from?

Also, several people have high, sharp cheekbones. Sansa, Jason Mallister, Nymeria Martell. If I were to guess at who could be Val's father, I would say that it could be Jason Mallister just based on looks, and maybe a few personality things. But I have not checked to see how busty Jason is, which seems to be a requirement:

• Jason Mallister rose to offer Catelyn his seat. His hair had almost as much white in it as brown, but the Lord of Seagard was still a handsome man; tall and lean, with a chiseled clean-shaven face, high cheekbones, and fierce blue-grey eyes. "Lady Stark, it is ever a pleasure. I bring good tidings, I hope."

Also, if I remember correctly, that video claims Val and Jon are the same age. That is also incorrect. We are never given Val's actual age, but there is a chance that she is maybe around 20, I think it was in a discussion with Jarl's actual age and how he was younger than Val. Either way, Val is about 3ish years older than Jon.

Val is Val, sister to Dalla, and this was done for very important reasons. Too many reasons to list as one post here without seeming weird, off topic, and taking up a lot of space.

It seems their theory building is no better or worse than any other casual forum visitor that pops in every once in a while to test a particular theory. The Jon birth parents idea included.

[King Maegor]

5 minutes ago, falcotron said:

You realize you start this paragraph arguing that none of the poetic titles are people, and end it arguing that Jon must be Ashara's son because he has to fit a poetic title, right?

Up to this point, I was pretty sure you were just some stalkery fanboy in love with one of the Greenhand people or something, but now I suspect you're just a troll.

I admit I'm a big fan of theirs.  I wasn't anything but honest about that from the start.  and yes I said that the Song of Ice and Fire doesn't have to be a person and that Jon should be the Sword of the Morning.  I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.  The Sword of the Morning is an actual position that someone holds.  There have been several that we know of.  George called it an office.  There is no such position in the story as The Song of Ice and Fire, so the two aren't comparable the way you are trying to compare them

[cgrav]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well Ned being an honorable guy that wouldn't cheat does point to Jon not being his son right? 

If R&L had a child & Ned was at the ToJ after she had said child, but the child he presented to his wife as his bastard Jon Snow is not that child - then who is? 

 

yeah, this is a pretty significant gap that the timeline doesn't accommodate. We know Lyanna had a kid very shortly before Ned arrived, so who and where is it? Just how many mysterious babies changed hands here? We can try to insert all kinds of What If scenarios, but I'm of the opinion that all of the important factual information regarding ToJ was stated very early on. If there were a longer chain of events, it likely would have been hinted at more overtly by now.

[King Maegor]

14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And just a quick note of their Val and Jon are siblings theory video... I discussed this back in April on a different thread. They just have so many basic pieces of information wrong, and it isn't only this particular video. It is in each of the 4 or 5 of their videos I watched.

One of the main things that is not correct is what they mentioned with the eye color changing for both Ned and Val. They tried to use a quote by Catelyn where she was looking at Ned's bones and reminiscing about how his eyes were "fog grey" and then "stone grey". What they were totally missing, or intentionally fudging, is the fact that this is describing emotion, mood, and personality in this scene. It was not that Ned's eye literally changed color.

Now, Jon does describe Val's eye color as first grey, then blue, and this is most likely for reasons that are definitely not linked to Ned's eyes sometimes being "soft" and sometimes "hard". There are other people in the story with (purposeful) eye color changing and it is related to the sea, and we all know by now that the wall and the true north above the wall are both described as water and the sea over and over. This is for another reason that has nothing to do with Ned.

Also, Ashara had dark/black hair, and Ned had brown hair, so where would Val's (important) honey colored hair come from?

Also, several people have high, sharp cheekbones. Sansa, Jason Mallister, Nymeria Martell. If I were to guess at who could be Val's father, I would say that it could be Jason Mallister just based on looks, and maybe a few personality things. But I have not checked to see how busty Jason is, which seems to be a requirement:

• Jason Mallister rose to offer Catelyn his seat. His hair had almost as much white in it as brown, but the Lord of Seagard was still a handsome man; tall and lean, with a chiseled clean-shaven face, high cheekbones, and fierce blue-grey eyes. "Lady Stark, it is ever a pleasure. I bring good tidings, I hope."

Also, if I remember correctly, that video claims Val and Jon are the same age. That is also incorrect. We are never given Val's actual age, but there is a chance that she is maybe around 20, I think it was in a discussion with Jarl's actual age and how he was younger than Val. Either way, Val is about 3ish years older than Jon.

Val is Val, sister to Dalla, and this was done for very important reasons. Too many reasons to list as one post here without seeming weird, off topic, and taking up a lot of space.

It seems their theory building is no better or worse than any other casual forum visitor that pops in every once in a while to test a particular theory. The Jon birth parents idea included.

You don't find it intriguing that Stannis attaches Winterfell to Val, when he is a man who says the law is made of iron not pudding?  why would he make marrying Val and Winterfell a package deal if she has no tie to the Starks?  and why does Ghost noticeably like her so much and pall around with her?  When she came back from finding Tormund, Ghost was so excited he ran out into the woods and came back with her and Jon said, "they look like they belong together."  And their point about Mance choosing the less attractive sister is compelling as well.  I don't know many kings who choose to marry the less attractive sister when both were available.  And Val is smoking hot, like on a level with Dany, which also makes sense if she was Ashara's daughter.  She is essentially described as looking exactly like Ashara with blonde hair

[King Maegor]

2 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Well Ned being an honorable guy that wouldn't cheat does point to Jon not being his son right? 

If R&L had a child & Ned was at the ToJ after she had said child, but the child he presented to his wife as his bastard Jon Snow is not that child - then who is?

The timeline works perfectly for N+A=J and R+L=Aegon.  If Jon was born approximately at the same time as the sack of KL (which we know is the case because George told us that in an author's annotation in the new iBook of ADWD), he would have been conceived a few months prior to Ned marrying Catelyn.  It also gives Ned enough time to travel the thousands of miles to the ToJ (or Winterfell if TOotGH is correct) and find Lyanna in her bed of blood.  Then Ned would have to swap Jon and Aegon because he could never pass a silver haired, violet eyed baby off as his own, so he sent Ashara to Essos with Aegon, and took Jon home with him

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

so you're saying George used the phrase "knees don't bend easily" to describe wildlings?  no he didn't...I looked it up on a search of ice and fire when I watched their video last year and they are right.  it is only used by Arthur Dayne and to describe Mance Rayder. 

Yes, it happens in Dorne a lot. Starting with Meria Martell during Aegon's conquest when Rhaenys flew her dragon to meet her. Meria told Rhaenys basically they would rather burn than bow/kneel to Aegon. And Val repeats this idea. And Craster talks about "serving no man" south of the wall (but yeah, he is twisted anyway, but still a free folkian). Tormund and Ygritte both use the phrase "kneelers" often enough to drive the point on that this is a general free folk idea. I believe the Magnar says something about this as well.

• It is too cold for this mummer's show, thought Jon. "The free folk despise kneelers," he had warned Stannis. "Let them keep their pride, and they will love you better." His Grace would not listen. He said, "It is swords I need from them, not kisses."

4 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

 

The Order of the Green Hand doesn't talk about other people's theories.  They come up with their own, so comparing them to people who read Reddit posts and talk about other people's theories doesn't really make sense.

I never said they use other people's theories.

4 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

And they were quoting Ramsay from the show when they said, "you haven't been paying attention."  It was a joke, and if you find that offensive, you should see the ridiculous things people say to them in their comment section. 

Ok, two things. One, using anything from the show just ridiculous when discussing the books. Two, no matter where the source is coming from, that is condescending to say to someone who simply disagrees.

I guess I should add a third, please show me where I was "offended". People can do or say whatever they want, it doesn't bother me, but it also does not make it less rude from them either.

4 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

 

Someone actually threatened to hurt them and somehow figured out where they live and posted it online back in the winter

Well, yeah that is F'd up, but one shitty person doesn't speak for the majority of other posters. This means nothing in this discussion. Crap like this happens with just about everyone who opens themselves up to the public. Including at least two other posters on this forum that I know, and ones who post more in the general discussion (non-book) threads. There was even a topic about it a while back.

[cgrav]

2 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

You don't find it intriguing that Stannis attaches Winterfell to Val, when he is a man who says the law is made of iron not pudding?  why would he make marrying Val and Winterfell a package deal if she has no tie to the Starks?  and why does Ghost noticeably like her so much and pall around with her?  When she came back from finding Tormund, Ghost was so excited he ran out into the woods and came back with her and Jon said, "they look like they belong together?"

I would say these point more towards a romantic relationship than a familial one. Ghost (and all the direwolves) are used to express the unstated nature of the characters. 

As to the marriage, Stannis is aware that the Wildlings will only fight for someone they find credible, which is why they need that chain of credibility from Stannis to Jon to Val to Tormund to the rest of the Wildlings. Stannis really wants the Wildlings to assimilate into the feudal society south of the Wall, but he knows it's entirely unreasonable to expect them to follow Val's marriage alliance arbitrarily. They're only going to follow the person who stood up for them and helped complete Mance's mission.

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

You don't find it intriguing that Stannis attaches Winterfell to Val, when he is a man who says the law is made of iron not pudding?  why would he make marrying Val and Winterfell a package deal if she has no tie to the Starks?  and why does Ghost noticeably like her so much and pall around with her?  When she came back from finding Tormund, Ghost was so excited he ran out into the woods and came back with her and Jon said, "they look like they belong together." 

I have spent a great deal of time talking about Val, and even directly asked GRRM about her. None of what happens in the story with Val is because she is Jon's sister, or a Stark in anyway. You can read my rambles here if you so desire. One of the reasons I find her so compelling is because George has used her near exact archetype in about four of his older stories and I was curious as to why he reintroduced this same archetype again in ASOIAF.

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And their point about Mance choosing the less attractive sister is compelling as well.

Beauty is subjective and we never get anyone's visual impression of Dalla who is from the lower kingdoms. I find this to be a very thin and tasteless example of author misrepresentation, the point of the story, and the idea that only the prettiest girls are chosen. Apparently Dalla is what Mance wanted.

And the fact that ootgh went on and on about how "disgusting" Bloodraven is shows how shallowly they judge people based on looks.

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  I don't know many kings who choose to marry the less attractive sister when both were available. 

Because in free folk "stealing" it is actually an even t where both participents are active in the choosing process, and women do get the final word. It is actually just "courting", but a mistranslation from north of the wall to south shows how misunderstood the free folk actually are. As Val and Ygritte both point out to Jon.

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And Val is smoking hot, like on a level with Dany, which also makes sense if she was Ashara's daughter.  She is essentially described as looking exactly like Ashara with blonde hair

Val does not look like Ned or Ashara, and with Val's age, the timing does not add up. Val is not described as looking anything like Ashara besides being "hot" in a handfull of men's opinion. That does not a theory make.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

The timeline works perfectly for N+A=J and R+L=Aegon.  If Jon was born approximately at the same time as the sack of KL (which we know is the case because George told us that in an author's annotation in the new iBook of ADWD), he would have been conceived a few months prior to Ned marrying Catelyn.  It also gives Ned enough time to travel the thousands of miles to the ToJ (or Winterfell if TOotGH is correct) and find Lyanna in her bed of blood.  Then Ned would have to swap Jon and Aegon because he could never pass a silver haired, violet eyed baby off as his own, so he sent Ashara to Essos with Aegon, and took Jon home with him

I guess I'm confused by what you are saying now. First why does  tootgh think Ned traveled to WF & not the ToJ. 

2nd if Jon is Ned's he doesn't need to pass a silver haired, violet eyed baby as his own right? He would only need to hide Aegon. 

And did he bring baby Jon to the ToJ? Knowing he was going to have to fight? If not where was Jon? 

[cgrav]

17 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

The timeline works perfectly for N+A=J and R+L=Aegon.  If Jon was born approximately at the same time as the sack of KL (which we know is the case because George told us that in an author's annotation in the new iBook of ADWD), he would have been conceived a few months prior to Ned marrying Catelyn.  It also gives Ned enough time to travel the thousands of miles to the ToJ (or Winterfell if TOotGH is correct) and find Lyanna in her bed of blood.  Then Ned would have to swap Jon and Aegon because he could never pass a silver haired, violet eyed baby off as his own, so he sent Ashara to Essos with Aegon, and took Jon home with him

Unless Ashara Dayne was pregnant for over a year, or Jon is like a year older than we're told, the timeline does not accommodate NAJ. It also doesn't explain how RL's kid got anywhere that Ned didn't take it. Did he drop Aegon at Starfall and pick up Jon? Seems odd he'd leave his own nephew down there instead of raising it at Winterfell.

The fact that there's a gap in the timeline doesn't mean just anything "works" for it. Why not assert that Ned sailed to Asshai and plucked Jon from dragon's brood? There's certainly enough unaccounted time. Things only work in the timeline if we have some reason to think that they happened in the first place. We don't get to find a few spare weeks or months and just put whatever we want in them.

This is what I mean when I say that people cling to logistics for less-than-well-supported theories. If GRRM needs something really important to happen, the story and logistics are going to be built around it, not used to obscure it. We know exactly where Rhaegar and Lyanna were for months and that she had a kid and that Ned discovered it. It might just be that the logistics of RLJ are straightforward because it's true, and it's important, and GRRM made sure not to exclude the possibility by putting characters in the wrong place or time.

[King Maegor]

10 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, it happens in Dorne a lot. Starting with Meria Martell during Aegon's conquest when Rhaenys flew her dragon to meet her. Meria told Rhaenys basically they would rather burn than bow/kneel to Aegon. And Val repeats this idea. And Craster talks about "serving no man" south of the wall (but yeah, he is twisted anyway, but still a free folkian). Tormund and Ygritte both use the phrase "kneelers" often enough to drive the point on that this is a general free folk idea. I believe the Magnar says something about this as well.

thank you for proving my point.  that phrase is only used to by Arthur Dayne and to describe Mance. And like I said before, that is one small piece of a larger whole.  if you watch both of their videos about the KG from the ToJ still being alive together in one sitting it makes a lot of sense.  Mance was singing the Dornishman's Wife when we first meet him.  He's the only wildling with a pure white tent (like a KG).  He's the best fighter we see and we get to see him do it with a big two-handed greatsword (like Dawn).  There's a lot more to it but watch the videos.  My mind was completely blown by the end of the second one

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I would say these point more towards a romantic relationship than a familial one. Ghost (and all the direwolves) are used to express the unstated nature of the characters. 

As to the marriage, Stannis is aware that the Wildlings will only fight for someone they find credible, which is why they need that chain of credibility from Stannis to Jon to Val to Tormund to the rest of the Wildlings. Stannis really wants the Wildlings to assimilate into the feudal society south of the Wall, but he knows it's entirely unreasonable to expect them to follow Val's marriage alliance arbitrarily. They're only going to follow the person who stood up for them and helped complete Mance's mission.

Exactly. It is said in the books that, "Sam reddened. King Stannis had plans for Val, he knew; she was the mortar with which he meant to seal the peace between the northmen and the free folk."

This has nothing to do with Val being a secret Stark.

And the free folk have already bowed to Val while she was up on the platform next to Stannis, but Stannis doesn't realize this yet. The in-story parallel to this happens between Asha and Theon when he returns to the Iron Islands.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I would say these point more towards a romantic relationship than a familial one. Ghost (and all the direwolves) are used to express the unstated nature of the characters. 

As to the marriage, Stannis is aware that the Wildlings will only fight for someone they find credible, which is why they need that chain of credibility from Stannis to Jon to Val to Tormund to the rest of the Wildlings. Stannis really wants the Wildlings to assimilate into the feudal society south of the Wall, but he knows it's entirely unreasonable to expect them to follow Val's marriage alliance arbitrarily. They're only going to follow the person who stood up for them and helped complete Mance's mission.

I agree here. Jon repeatedly tries to tell Stan that the wildlings don't work like the rest of Westeros. There is no heir. Much like the Dothraki the wildlings follow strength. Stannis thinks he has found a way around that in marrying Jon to Val. 

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

thank you for proving my point.  that phrase is only used to by Arthur Dayne and to describe Mance. And like I said before, that is one small piece of a larger whole.  if you watch both of their videos about the KG from the ToJ still being alive together in one sitting it makes a lot of sense.  Mance was singing the Dornishman's Wife when we first meet him.  He's the only wildling with a pure white tent (like a KG). 

That was an antlered snow bear tent. THAT is the symbolism behind this. These free folk are going to be the kingsguard for a future Jon Snow, King of Winter, horned lord, berserker bear.

And the free folk had this idea all through their own history. It had nothing to do with Mance. Your connection does not fit. Sorry. They are parallels to show the north will fight off fire dragons as Dorne did.

• The clans of the Mountains of the Moon are clearly descendants of the First Men who did not bend the knee to the Andals and so were driven into the mountains. Furthermore, there are similarities in their customs to the customs of the wildlings beyond the Wall—such as bride-stealing, a stubborn desire to rule themselves, and the like—and the wildlings are indisputably descended from the First Men.

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He's the best fighter we see and we get to see him do it with a big two-handed greatsword (like Dawn).  There's a lot more to it but watch the videos.  My mind was completely blown by the end of the second one

That fight was there in part to show Jon's own progression as well as foreshadowing for Jon going "berserk" (related to bears again!) for some time after he is healed. But it also puts Mance in the scene for when Jon receives important info that Mance uses to his advantage later. That of fArya getting married to Ramsay at Winterfell, and Jon thinking Arya will just kill Ramsay and/or be killed herself. This lets Mance see the sibling connection between Jon and his clan kin, and Mance later uses this info to manipulate Melisandre into "releasing" him to go to Long Lake to save fArya, which infact, we know Mance chose to go to Winterfell instead on his own mission.

[King Maegor]

6 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Unless Ashara Dayne was pregnant for over a year, or Jon is like a year older than we're told, the timeline does not accommodate NAJ. It also doesn't explain how RL's kid got anywhere that Ned didn't take it. Did he drop Aegon at Starfall and pick up Jon? Seems odd he'd leave his own nephew down there instead of raising it at Winterfell.

The fact that there's a gap in the timeline doesn't mean just anything "works" for it. Why not assert that Ned sailed to Asshai and plucked Jon from dragon's brood? There's certainly enough unaccounted time. Things only work in the timeline if we have some reason to think that they happened in the first place.

The Rebellion lasted a year.  the official start of it was when Jon Arryn called his banners.  Ned then had to get to the North to call the banners, assemble his bannermen, and ride south.  that includes him having to cross over and through the mountains of the moon and get to the fingers.  the people of Sisterton saw Ned with a pretty young girl they all think is Jon's mother, that Ned told them was a fisherman's daughter.  They must have seen something that made everyone there assume the girl Ned was with is Jon's mother.  it would have been 5-6 months before Ned actually arrived at Riverrun to marry Catelyn, which places Jon's conception at a point in time where Ned was still in the North. at the end of the war, Ned goes to Starfall where he meets Jon.  Aegon was either born at the ToJ or Broken Tower at Winterfell, I like their theory that they were at Winterfell like the Bael the Bard story.  Ned promised his sister he would protect her son, but has no way of doing it if he looks exactly like Rhaegar (like Aegon does), so he convinced Ashara to take him into hiding and pose as his mother, which she easily could because she has purple eyes.  there's more to it than that but its been a while and I can't remember all the details

[cgrav]

10 minutes ago, King Maegor said:

thank you for proving my point.  that phrase is only used to by Arthur Dayne and to describe Mance. And like I said before, that is one small piece of a larger whole.  if you watch both of their videos about the KG from the ToJ still being alive together in one sitting it makes a lot of sense.  Mance was singing the Dornishman's Wife when we first meet him.  He's the only wildling with a pure white tent (like a KG).  He's the best fighter we see and we get to see him do it with a big two-handed greatsword (like Dawn).  There's a lot more to it but watch the videos.  My mind was completely blown by the end of the second one

it's possible for characters to occupy similar themes/archetypes without them being the same person. Mance also has a black cape with red slashes... is he a Targaryen or Blackfyre? 

There's also the fact that Mance has been at or north of the Wall since before the ToJ scene. Jeor remember Mance as a youngster at the Wall, and the Wildlings have been following him for like 20+ years.