When the Dead Come Knocking

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, Faera said:

Do it!

Well, it is another way in which Jon parallels Daenerys in a way - those who follow them love them. Plus, there are those traditionalists at the Wall who would profess to hate Jon yet I have a hard time believing they would completely condone Marsh’s actions either (*cough*Thorne*cough*).

The funny thing is that the Mountain clans’ meeting with Jon might be an indication that they have wishes to involve him in their big political conspiracy or at least keep him in mind. Especially if they learn of Robb’s will or know about it already.

It might be as simple as Daenerys not currently having been brought to their attention. Mel and Thoros go by the flames - and we at least know in Mel’s case she has not seen anything that we necessarily need associate with Dany... so, she probably isn’t factoring into the “plan” quite yet.

I have to admit that Dany’s set up seems to be to arrive late on the scene. I foresee Cersei being ousted by an Aegon-Arianne combo well before Daenerys arrives. It might be that she only gets her bum over there once news reaches her Aegon is there.

Again, this is how I feel. Dreaming and warging are such important parts of Jon’s character. This notion that he might never sleep again is what draws me towards the idea of a “sleeping death” a la Snow White, over flat out death is what interests me about Jon having a spiritual and psychological rebirth while simultaneously. As said a few pages back, this sort of journey to the Otherworld and back being encapsulated in Jon’s transformation from man to wolf to man again.

In all fairness, Mel has not done any major damage yet buuuuuuuuuuut hearing Stannis is dead and Jon has been murdered or is dying might cause her to commit some sort of grievous offence that ultimately gets her killed. If anything her point of action for a while has been to keep Jon from harm - and we mustn’t forget she has a support unit of her own as well in the form of the remaining Queensguard... who admittedly might be on the verge of going into civil war with the wildlings without Jon there.

Actually, I was thinking about who will be the POV at the Wall during Jon’s “rest”. While we could very well get his POV through Ghost, if he is busy having his third eye opened by the 3EC or Bran or whatever, he probably won’t be paying as much attention to what is going on at the Wall.

So, it stands to reason this is why GRRM set Mel up as a POV in the first place — to bridge the period where Jon is OOA as the Wall POV. Perhaps it might well end with her being killed because in a bid to save Jon.

We need to also bear in mind that she, Selyse and Shireen are at MASSIVE risk with Jon gone and Stannis presumed dead. So, Mel might well have an invested interest in trying to keep Jon alive because the moment he dies is the moment all hell really truly breaks out at the Wall. 

I do wonder who will be in a position to take charge at Castle Black if all hell does break out - the wildlings and brothers still outnumber the conspirators, so might there be a power struggle to boot? Again, all the more reason to get Jon back up again.

In care it isn’t clear, I loved the Wall plot in ADwD. 

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Also, thinking about it, isn’t Tycho Nestoris on his way back to the Wall with Jeyne Poole as of Theon I, TWoW? So, how bad fighting breaks out at the Wall may rely on whether they get there - and whether Jon is even awake by this point to greet them.

 

You know Faera, I think I've posted more topics in the past month than in the entire time I've been hanging around this joint.   Must be the company.  I've got Harrenhal Part 2 done and hope to spend some time with you there and I'm already working on 4 other topics, so maybe a giant thing like religion in ASOIAF would be better left to some of you here who have a much better grasp on it than the elementary connections I'm just now making.   I don't wanna go back to the kid's table!  

You know Dear One, I think that's the 1st time I've ever seen anyone suppose enemies could become Jon's defenders in the aftermath of his stabbing.  Joke or not, it bears investigation. 

Yah I love the North folk.   They are every bit as clever and deceptive as their Southron counterparts.   Their motives are easier to swallow if not their super mysterious methods.  I have problems with Jon being drawn into this raise the North plot.  Jon's just a good guy trying to do the right thing and cover bases while everyone is else out in the beer line.   I'm not feeling particularly warm and fuzzy about any of it.  He's already been through so much and suppose he's got to figure politics out, much as it may sully him.  Ick. 

I get Thoros being out of the Red Priest Azor Ahai loop.   He's busy.   Mel has been spending the past 20+ years (real) convinced her guy is the guy.  Something's wrong here.  I'm personally hoping Drogon eats her 1st.  But, you're right and Dany will make her way.   It's just so interesting that Dany isn't a "thing" in Westeros.   This summons to mind Bran's awakening at Lady's death.  make of it what you will, if anything at all, but I get this twinge of foreboding.  Big recovery seems to require dire sacrifice.  Still, you bring up great points in Mel's safety, along with her entire gang.  Poor Shireen.  As much as I look forward to events unfolding I sort of dread the fall out, too.  Will anyone take over or will each faction just go its own way?   Wouldn't that be awful if the few brothers at CB are killed and everyone else just heads south leaving Jon there?   Man I'm glad I'm not writing this thing.   

One thing I do hope really gets explained is how death works in Westeros.   I'm hoping we get some combination of Bran's visions, Mel's prophecy and Jon's horrible dreams in whatever consciousness remains of Jon.   

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Shout outs to @Faera, @Seams, @Lady Dacey, and @Julia H. for some interesting points and discussion, much of which I agree with.  I unfortunately have been travelling and am on my mobile phone so it has been difficult to read through everything and jump in to where the conversation has led, but I am enjoying reading.

Thanks for the kind words, friend.  You are correct to notice that I purposefully left out reflections on the role of ice in resurrections.  I view the ice magic "resurrections" such as what happens with the wights as an entirely different thing - my interpretation is that wights are still dead, only reanimated via power that is specific to the Others (and not ice in general), and while some shred of their memory may be thought to exist (the wights who first tried to attack Mormont) it really cannot be that much, after all they are "reprogrammed" of sorts to kill their old Lord Commader, and lack the ability to talk, the need for sleep, etc.  I don't know what to make of Coldhands so I am going to admittedly ignore him as some special case due to intervention of the COTF.  My thinking is that the preservative power of ice will really only come into play with respect to the lack of body decomposition Jon may have while he is in his coma/suspended/dead state, and not relate to memory or personality in any way.

I like the interpretation that LSH is a different character than Catelyn but I disagree.  I see her being in the same vein as Beric... resurrected and something slightly less than her original self, but still Catelyn.  The amount of time spend dead/bodily decomposing may have an impact on the wholeness of one's mind when they are resurrected.  I believe LSH's real purpose though is to be confronted by Arya, so Arya can see how a sole focus on vengeance corrupts a person, and Arya would then fear her soul would have become as fearsome and terrible as LSH's outer appearance, thus helping Arya to gain some perspective and pivot towards learning the benefits of actual mercy (not her/Joffrey's "mercy" of death) and forgiveness.

It's good to see you back here, Lucius.  This entire discussion is really opening a Pandora's box of some of the original questions I had after the 1st read.   A while back there was a discussion about the degrees of dead in ASOIAF.  We called it Dead or Somewhat Dead and our friend @Yaya even got down and made full on lists and categories of dead for the topic.   I tend to lean with you in thinking there are degrees of dead where the wights are concerned.  I'm not sure the Others are dead at all and I am beginning to expect that fire wights are in some way influenced by the Red Priests who bring them back.   The biggest impression it made on me is that no one is safe in this tale, dead or alive.   If you have a moment I would be curious as to your thoughts on Patchface right here in the middle and just outside of fire and ice resurrected. 

When this group gets together we tend to talk on for days.   We haven't forgotten much so jump in wherever you please.  We're glad you're back.   

[Lucius Lovejoy]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's good to see you back here, Lucius.  This entire discussion is really opening a Pandora's box of some of the original questions I had after the 1st read.   A while back there was a discussion about the degrees of dead in ASOIAF.  We called it Dead or Somewhat Dead and our friend @Yaya even got down and made full on lists and categories of dead for the topic.   I tend to lean with you in thinking there are degrees of dead where the wights are concerned.  I'm not sure the Others are dead at all and I am beginning to expect that fire wights are in some way influenced by the Red Priests who bring them back.   The biggest impression it made on me is that no one is safe in this tale, dead or alive.   If you have a moment I would be curious as to your thoughts on Patchface right here in the middle and just outside of fire and ice resurrected. 

When this group gets together we tend to talk on for days.   We haven't forgotten much so jump in wherever you please.  We're glad you're back.   

Degrees of dead in ASOIAF - what a novel concept.  I hadn't considered it but it seems quite appropriate.

Oh gosh... Patchface.  What a case!  Ultimately I don't think we are going to get any answers as to his nature.  With GRRM as an atheist who is clearly very interested in religion and the possibility of the supernatural, I am fairly certain we will not get any answers on what the actual spiritual/metaphysical laws are that govern planetos (just as we don't have definitive answers here on earth).  So a strong argument could be made that Patchface somehow actually survived the Windproud shipwreck my natural means, though through a combination of oxygen deprivation and trauma he became what he is.  An equally strong argument could be made that he died and was resurrected by a god, or remains dead and bodily reanimated by a corporeal power (like the others or bloodraven or something else yet to be revealed).  I don't see us getting an answer.  Hell, he could have orchestrated some blood magic or done something on the boat to cause the storm and wreck, and the cost of it was most of his wits.  We have no clue.

My head is spinning now.  Much to consider.

[Seams]

 

Following a trail of breadcrumbs yesterday, I went back to the OP because I'm still intrigued by the details in Bowen Marsh's attack on Jon Snow. This led me to look at Bowen Marsh on the wiki, and I was reminded of this from Bowen's time as the acting Lord Commander:

Bowen leaves Castle Black to face a diversion by the wildlings who lead him to the Bridge of Skulls.^[6] There, Bowen confronts the Weeper and inflicts upon him a bloody defeat costing heavy losses to the Night's Watch. Injured, Bowen is healed at the Shadow Tower and brought back to Castle Black by Ser Denys Mallister. On the way there, they meet and join with Samwell Tarly and Gilly.^[7]

The Bridge of Skulls. I think this could be another one of those symbolic doors or gateways between life and death, consistent with LynnS's insight about the weirwood tree and the Black Gate.

On 1/20/2018 at 11:51 AM, LynnS said:

I compare the three headed god Trios to Whitetree+Black Gate+Thoros.  One head consumes, the third head disgorges and nobody knows what the middle head does.

Bowen Marsh may have been on the Bridge of Skulls or even crossed it and returned. After his mission to that location, he had to be healed at the Shadow Tower. I have a hunch that this may have been one of those symbolic crossings, like Ser Jorah and Thoros going over the wall at Pyke, Ser Barriston at Duskendale, etc. What if Bowen Marsh had a "third eye" experience while he was recovering from his injuries (incurred during combat with the Weeper, the wildling notorious for blinding his victims).

The Bridge of Skulls also seems significant for its potential connection to the Knight of Skulls and Kisses, Richard Lonmouth, (widely suspected in this forum as the true identity of Lem Lemoncloak) and also to Melisandre's vision of skulls.

Aside from the potential significance in Bowen Marsh's motives, or in something he might have learned during a trip into the world of death, if the bridge is part of the death / rebirth symbolism, I suspect it is the opposite of Eastwatch by the Sea. The nearest Night's Watch fort to the bridge is called Westwatch by the Bridge, but it has not been manned for some time so the Shadow Tower is the westernmost manned outpost.

How interesting that the guy who cuts out people's eyes (the Weeper) is confronted and defeated at a place where there is no one watching. The fort is called Westwatch and there should be someone watching but the eyes of the Night's Watch have all been gone for a long time.

Is there already a thread that analyzes the meanings of the Night's Watch forts in order from sunrise to sunset? I bet we could sort out a few hints about birth and death from such a discussion.

On 1/22/2018 at 8:18 PM, Lady Dacey said:

I take a more literal approach to this passage - Ned is just being Ned and refusing to make 'dishonorable decisions'. I look at it that way specially because magic making a come back seems to be a big part of the story GRRM has set for us. In a way, magic itself could be a subject of this thread, as it's coming alive again after being thought dead by the westerosi. Now, if there was "magic enough" in the world for reanimation when Ned was younger, I think that would be incongruent with what we've learned so far about the world of ice and fire. 

My understanding is that a little bit of magic has been ongoing, but magic gained strength with the appearance of the comet and/or the birth of Dany's dragons. Magical people such as Marwyn, Melisandre and Maggy the Frog and have been at work for many years. Patchface seems to have died and been reborn some years before Robert became king. Characters do seem to see more magic in recent days but there have been practitioners and pockets for some time of what might be called magic.

But I'm also not sure I would put rebirth in the category of magic. It just seems to be an almost routine thing for certain archetypal characters in ASOIAF.

[Faera]

16 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You know Faera, I think I've posted more topics in the past month than in the entire time I've been hanging around this joint.   Must be the company.  I've got Harrenhal Part 2 done and hope to spend some time with you there and I'm already working on 4 other topics, so maybe a giant thing like religion in ASOIAF would be better left to some of you here who have a much better grasp on it than the elementary connections I'm just now making.   I don't wanna go back to the kid's table!  

Well, I always enjoy partaking in new topics and you always come up with very good ones. I myself am actually a little shy about starting a new topic. I've never done it before so half the time I loom about hoping someone else will have a similar idea...
 

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Yah I love the North folk.   They are every bit as clever and deceptive as their Southron counterparts.   Their motives are easier to swallow if not their super mysterious methods.  I have problems with Jon being drawn into this raise the North plot.  Jon's just a good guy trying to do the right thing and cover bases while everyone is else out in the beer line.   I'm not feeling particularly warm and fuzzy about any of it.  He's already been through so much and suppose he's got to figure politics out, much as it may sully him.  Ick. 

 

Jon seems like someone who people gravitate towards because he is a natural leader despite being a divisive one. It will be hard for him to stay out of the Northern politics if Robb's will becomes public knowledge. There are those who might simply want him because he's older and ready to rule while Rickon, if Davos finds him, is just a child and not king material. Frankly, even if Rickon is located and brought back I half expect him to have "gone native" on Skargos and unable to adapt to life in Winterfell anymore.

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I get Thoros being out of the Red Priest Azor Ahai loop.   He's busy.   Mel has been spending the past 20+ years (real) convinced her guy is the guy.  Something's wrong here.  I'm personally hoping Drogon eats her 1st.  But, you're right and Dany will make her way.   It's just so interesting that Dany isn't a "thing" in Westeros.   This summons to mind Bran's awakening at Lady's death.  make of it what you will, if anything at all, but I get this twinge of foreboding.  Big recovery seems to require dire sacrifice.  Still, you bring up great points in Mel's safety, along with her entire gang.  Poor Shireen.  As much as I look forward to events unfolding I sort of dread the fall out, too.  Will anyone take over or will each faction just go its own way?   Wouldn't that be awful if the few brothers at CB are killed and everyone else just heads south leaving Jon there?   Man I'm glad I'm not writing this thing.   

 

The thing with Dany is that... even when she does show up I really don't think the people will really welcome her. Stories of the chaos she brought to Slaver's Bay will have reached Westeros as well as her lack of control over those dragons of hers. The appearance of Aegon complicates things further -- whether he is real or fake, if he wins the Storm Lands and marries Arianne in order to secure Dorne (I very much suspect this will happen) then many more people will follow him. He'd be the King of Spin. So, if she comes in with her three dragons people might well gear up to just try and kill her dragons and be rid of her.

God, thinking about it -- what if that was the whole reason they set up Quentyn as a character? To completely burn Daenerys's hopes of getting Dorne's trust. If word reaches Arianne that her brother was killed by a dragon, even if it was Quentyn's own stupid fault, she's not really going to want to trust Dany.

Wow, thinking about it who is there she could ally with? The Tyrells? Will there be anything left of them?

...Euron Greyjoy? 

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One thing I do hope really gets explained is how death works in Westeros.   I'm hoping we get some combination of Bran's visions, Mel's prophecy and Jon's horrible dreams in whatever consciousness remains of Jon.   

 

I agree with this. I get that wargs and skinchangers can slip their skins at will and go into their animal but that ultimately is, like, the magical power to move your soul from your normal "container" to another at will. Perhaps most people simply go into the trees or earth or air. The Children of the Forest worshipped the weirwoods because that was their afterlife. When they died, they would become part of the godhead. So, typical animism. Once a physical body dies, the soul slips away and starts to lose its consciousness while becoming part of the rest of the world or something.

That would explain why raised spirits come back with parts of themselves missing and changed. It's because their souls had started to deteriorate.

 

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Faera said:

Well, I always enjoy partaking in new topics and you always come up with very good ones. I myself am actually a little shy about starting a new topic. I've never done it before so half the time I loom about hoping someone else will have a similar idea...
 

Jon seems like someone who people gravitate towards because he is a natural leader despite being a divisive one. It will be hard for him to stay out of the Northern politics if Robb's will becomes public knowledge. There are those who might simply want him because he's older and ready to rule while Rickon, if Davos finds him, is just a child and not king material. Frankly, even if Rickon is located and brought back I half expect him to have "gone native" on Skargos and unable to adapt to life in Winterfell anymore.

The thing with Dany is that... even when she does show up I really don't think the people will really welcome her. Stories of the chaos she brought to Slaver's Bay will have reached Westeros as well as her lack of control over those dragons of hers. The appearance of Aegon complicates things further -- whether he is real or fake, if he wins the Storm Lands and marries Arianne in order to secure Dorne (I very much suspect this will happen) then many more people will follow him. He'd be the King of Spin. So, if she comes in with her three dragons people might well gear up to just try and kill her dragons and be rid of her.

God, thinking about it -- what if that was the whole reason they set up Quentyn as a character? To completely burn Daenerys's hopes of getting Dorne's trust. If word reaches Arianne that her brother was killed by a dragon, even if it was Quentyn's own stupid fault, she's not really going to want to trust Dany.

Wow, thinking about it who is there she could ally with? The Tyrells? Will there be anything left of them?

...Euron Greyjoy? 

I agree with this. I get that wargs and skinchangers can slip their skins at will and go into their animal but that ultimately is, like, the magical power to move your soul from your normal "container" to another at will. Perhaps most people simply go into the trees or earth or air. The Children of the Forest worshipped the weirwoods because that was their afterlife. When they died, they would become part of the godhead. So, typical animism. Once a physical body dies, the soul slips away and starts to lose its consciousness while becoming part of the rest of the world or something.

That would explain why raised spirits come back with parts of themselves missing and changed. It's because their souls had started to deteriorate.

 

You know, Lady, I have had so much fun in the past 3 topics I've enjoyed with so many right here with us.   I find by and large that despite our different interpretations and interests in this story you will always find someone who wants to talk about what you want to talk about.   Besides, you're articulate and a good conversationalist.  I think of this group here and a few others I'm so proud to enjoy this story with as a sort of little book club within this monster forum.  I helped a friend mine quotes this weekend and was the recipient of some much needed Dany scenario vision from another.   It feels good to be part of this experience.  You're an owner around here--do it! 

As you can see, I don't talk about Dany much.   It's not for lack of love or interest.  I just can't figure out how it will all come down for her.   She's a conqueror--then what?  Reading your words I got to wondering if maybe Aegon won't already be long gone by the time she gets home.  Yah, i suffer a deeply questioning imagination for a literalist.  It will be very interesting to see how Dany comes home and the ensuing receptions.  Oh yes, Dorne will play largely in this.   Then again, I have to caution myself that Doran knows much more than I know he knows.  Ah the intrigue!  I recently read the quote where Illyrio lists Targaryan supporters for Dany and Viserys.   His list consists of the Tyrells, Redwines, Darrys and Greyjoys of all people.   Then there is the matter of that last of Rhaegar's rubies the brothers await on the Quiet Isle... Oh heck yeah I do hope Euron is a curve ball.   

We know Martin is brilliant.  Our friend The Fattest Leech, among others, is a big fan of his science fiction work and they allow us peeks into this alter writer we may not have the chance or interest in.   I do hope for a little cross over explanation or 2 regarding these deaths and degrees of dead.   

[Faera]

On 25/01/2018 at 3:30 AM, Curled Finger said:

You know, Lady, I have had so much fun in the past 3 topics I've enjoyed with so many right here with us.   I find by and large that despite our different interpretations and interests in this story you will always find someone who wants to talk about what you want to talk about.   Besides, you're articulate and a good conversationalist.  I think of this group here and a few others I'm so proud to enjoy this story with as a sort of little book club within this monster forum.  I helped a friend mine quotes this weekend and was the recipient of some much needed Dany scenario vision from another.   It feels good to be part of this experience.  You're an owner around here--do it! 

I suppose - I'm just naturally quite shy about my ideas and the thought of starting my own thread leaves me a bit nervous. I'm lucky that we seem to have thought about similar things so it have given me a chance to really speculate on topics that interest me: the nature of ressurection/reanimation in this world and, of course, our beloved LCM. Frankly, I could go on forever about anything related to Bran's chapters and the Reedlings. It's why I'm doing my close reading of the Jon and Bran chapters to see the parallels and connections between the two. Same with why I'm going back to the Bran chapters to use a "study" of the Reedlings as a way to better get a grasp on Howland as a character... Because I am gearing up for his appearance. He's like Godot. I have a sense that it all ties together (it is significant to the Jon resurrection) - and LCM's sphere of influence might yet overlap with the Brienne/Jaime plot with LSH. Not only is she a resurrected Catelyn but "she remembers" and she still has Robb's crown. Who has Robb's will? Maege and Galbett. Who are they with? It seems our LCM. Bottom line, if LSH gets up the Neck, the Northern politics plot and Jon/Wall plot might overlap, meaning so too could Bran's plot. All these dead, near dead, and dead men walking characters congregating towards the main threat.

Blathering over, I love posts like yours that allow for freedom and thought for us all to just speculate and make connections based on the text. It's fun and relaxing too. I have my thoughts to post on LCM at Harrenhal 2: The Revenge, don’t you worry. 

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As you can see, I don't talk about Dany much.   It's not for lack of love or interest.  I just can't figure out how it will all come down for her.   She's a conqueror--then what?  Reading your words I got to wondering if maybe Aegon won't already be long gone by the time she gets home.  Yah, i suffer a deeply questioning imagination for a literalist.  It will be very interesting to see how Dany comes home and the ensuing receptions.  Oh yes, Dorne will play largely in this.   Then again, I have to caution myself that Doran knows much more than I know he knows.  Ah the intrigue!  I recently read the quote where Illyrio lists Targaryan supporters for Dany and Viserys.   His list consists of the Tyrells, Redwines, Darrys and Greyjoys of all people.   Then there is the matter of that last of Rhaegar's rubies the brothers await on the Quiet Isle... Oh heck yeah I do hope Euron is a curve ball.   

See, that's just it. Is Euron Greyjoy a curveball? He seems so out there that I used to think, "Oh, this guy is just going to die by fire and be shown for the lunatic he is." Yet, in re-reads, I thought about the Ironborn again and began to think... Dear God! These guys are not so different from the Stark's in their "our way is the old way" mentality and their connections to mysterious gods that focus around death (and in the Greyjoy case, resuscitatation.) I used to have the Ironborn plot before Theon was "Reeked" but now it's like I've started to really fear that Euron, this guy who seemed so full of wind with his "I totes went to Valyria and had dragon eggs and stuff" is actually destined to be one of the main villains of the piece. As such, his actions are really exciting me and I will be watching them very carefully.

This whole thing of sending Victarion to collect Dany and her dragons ... I really wonder if there is more to it than that. I remember watching I think History of Westeros podcast where they were talking about the possibility that Victarion might become an "undead" thing or change might even be the smiling grey man from Dany's visions in ACoK. Either way, Euron's gifts are poisoned so he must have set up his brother somehow. 

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We know Martin is brilliant.  Our friend The Fattest Leech, among others, is a big fan of his science fiction work and they allow us peeks into this alter writer we may not have the chance or interest in.   I do hope for a little cross over explanation or 2 regarding these deaths and degrees of dead.   

Yes, I love their stuff especially the bits about Val. She's another character who I hope to see more of. It was actually The Fattest Leech who first made me wonder whether Alliser Thorne, the one we all likely suspected to one day stab Jon in the back, might turn out to be a begrudging ally for Jon. Something about the symbolism of the blue flower (Jon) and its single thorn. I can't quite recall but it was in the "For the Watch" forum somewhere and it really made me think.

Again, Alliser was another character who mockingly joked to Jon about resurrection and reanimation. Basically he warns that if he gets turned, he'll be back. It's basically the same as our world's "if I die, I'm coming back to haunt you!" And even Jon thinks how despite not seeing Alliser as a friend, he doesn't truly wish him harm either because he is a brother and "no one ever said you had to like your brothers." He would not lose a capable man just because of spite. It certainly would be interesting if the Jon-Support-System of allies and friends protect his vulnerable body while maybe it is left to Alliser of all people, the ultimate jerk and who we were led to believe was the worst  to deliver justice for Jon to the conspirators.