Olorin81 Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: That is actually not implied. What is actually stated is that the good guys consider some of the men in Saruman's army to be 'half-orcs', more like humans than like orcs. Which very much implies that orc-women were impregnated by human men or vice versa. Saruman began to fortify Isengard shortly after the last meeting with the White Council and was working actively (sort of) with Sauron since around 3,000 TA. He had time to produce at least 1-2 generations of half-breeds the conventional way. It is, of course, true that we don't have text covering any of this stuff, but it is implied by the fact that those creatures exist. In general, Tolkien clearly can claim to be more thorough world-builder in certain respects (most due to the fact that he took fifty years creating his world as a recreational activity - he was never a professional writer, dependent on selling stories or novels to earn a living) but George clearly creates more convincing and realistic characters and the better plots. They are only mentioned once in the LOTR books at all, by Gamling a man of Rohan. In The Two Towers in the Helm's Deep chapter where he refers to Saruman's army of Half Orcs and Goblin Men. And then maybe by Frodo and the others at the end of the books in the scouring of the shire. I feel like the word "bred" can be used loosely in this case. Especially given that Tolkien never tells explicitly. I feel it's left to the imagination. So who's to say sorcery wasn't involved? Saruman was a wizard, he was Maiar just like Sauron even if he was bound and perhaps limited in his mortal Istari body. Anyway we're getting way off track, that discussion doesn't belong in the General ASOIAF forum anyway. My point is that GRRM's sex scenes and their descriptions are way more graphic than anything Tolkien wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Olorin81 said: They are only mentioned once in the LOTR books at all, by Gamling a man of Rohan. In The Two Towers in the Helm's Deep chapter where he refers to Saruman's army of Half Orcs and Goblin Men. And then maybe by Frodo and the others at the end of the books in the scouring of the shire. I feel like the word "bred" can be used loosely in this case. Especially given that Tolkien never tells explicitly. I feel it's left to the imagination. So who's to say sorcery wasn't involved? Saruman was a wizard, he was Maiar just like Sauron even if he was bound and perhaps limited in his mortal Istari body. Anyway we're getting way off track, that discussion doesn't belong in the General ASOIAF forum anyway. My point is that GRRM's sex scenes and their descriptions are way more graphic than anything Tolkien wrote. "He (Saruman) has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that: he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!" (Treebeard) But you are right that this becomes disturbing only when you think about it, just like Celebrían's capture and torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 True, it's only disturbing when you think about it. But I don't think that's problematic, implying horror is quite often more effective than explicit depiction which can come across in the wrong way sometimes. Though, each has its place and I'm not knocking GRRM for his explicit descriptions, they are (mostly, I think there are times he gets too gratuitous) well placed and suited to the story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Oh, I'm certainly not bashing GRRM for his explicity, I'm just pointing out that there is way more darkness in Tolkien than people usually give him credit for. It kinda reminds me of the Alien series - the original one, and Cameron's sequel. You barely see the monster in the first, and there are tons of them jumping at you from everywhere in the second. I love both films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 17 hours ago, Ygrain said: that is Mary Poppins Sue. Show Mary Poppins, not book Mary Poppins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 On 3/9/2018 at 4:29 PM, Ygrain said: Oh, I'm certainly not bashing GRRM for his explicity, I'm just pointing out that there is way more darkness in Tolkien than people usually give him credit for. It kinda reminds me of the Alien series - the original one, and Cameron's sequel. You barely see the monster in the first, and there are tons of them jumping at you from everywhere in the second. I love both films. The Children of Hurin comes to mind for me. GRRM could have written that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said: The Children of Hurin comes to mind for me. GRRM could have written that. If he hooks up Jon with Dany, he actually might draw some inspiration... I just hope it ends there and Jon won't kill his BF by accident, bring ruin to the place that took him in and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 No contest , GRRM and JRRT is different as night and day or Rhllor and Morgoth. I love both of their work JRRT deals in black and white , while GRRM in shades of gray . And I doubt a pro like GRRM likes to be compared as Tolkien- like . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 On 3/9/2018 at 5:47 PM, Ygrain said: Well... just one more among the ton of bad decisions Jackson made. You mean, just like dismembering and beheading Gelmir right in front of his brother? Ah, wait... that was also Tolkien Silmarillion is dark and full of terrors. I overlooked the "Houses of Lamentation" with which the Witch King threatened Eowyn. Interestingly, he doesn't threaten her with death, but with something that is apparently much worse. They're probably much more horrible than the average torture chamber or dungeon. Perhaps, one's soul is somehow trapped between life and death there, and endlessly tormented. Being tortured by the Mouth of Sauron would be child's play by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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