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Lady Jowana

Dornish and Westerosi law

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In the Hedge Knight specifically the part where Prince Aerion beats up Tanselle the Dornish girl, the girl ran away to Dorne and didn't demand for justice.

I was wondering if an incident like this ever happened where Westerosi and Dornish commonners fought one another and if they did where will they settle their differences? Westeros or Dorne and which law will they be subjected to?

 

Edited by Lady Jowana

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Dorne at that time was already a part of 7K, so Prince of Dorne was going to submit to order of the King, whichever that order was going to be. And the only reason, why Tanselle and her friends, weren't chased down and executed, is because Dunk and his 6, won in the Trial of Seven. Thus the will of Gods, is that Dunk and the girl, that he was protecting, were right, while Prince Aerion was in the wrong. Thus there was no legal repercussions for that girl. But if Dunk would have lost, then probably him, and the girl and her companions, would have been executed. And it wouldn't have mattered whether they were caught in Dorne, or in other Kingdom of 7K, they would have been sent to KL, and executed there. So they all were lucky, that Dunk has won.

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22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Dorne at that time was already a part of 7K

The Tourney at Ashford Meadow took place in 209 AC; at which year did Dorne become a apart of the 7K?

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25 minutes ago, Lady Jowana said:

The Tourney at Ashford Meadow took place in 209 AC; at which year did Dorne become a apart of the 7K?

It was many years before events of that novel. At the time of Ashford Meadow, King Daeron II was already an oldman. His wife was Mariah Martell, mother of Crown Prince Baelor, the one who was accidentally killed by his brother Maekar, while fighting on Dunk's side, in the Trial of Seven.

Dorne joined 6K sometime between 161 (when ended conquest of Dorne, 4 years long war) and 169 (marriage of Daeron II and Mariah, their first child Baelor was born in 170, so probably they married a year before that, and thru that marriage Dorne was added to 6K).

Or maybe Dorne was added to 6K, only after marriage of Daeron's sister and Mariah's brother - Daenerys Targaryen and Maron Martell, in 187.

Eitherway, at the time of that Tournament, ruler of Dorne was niece or nephew of King Daeron, so she or he would have abided to 7K's laws, and gave those fugitives back to Targaryen family.

Edited by Megorova

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Without going full first year of law school: the concept of jurisdiction, even in medieval (or medieval-inspired) settings, usually boils down to two main questions.  Where did the incident at issue take place? and where are the adverse parties located?  Especially in societies where quick, long-distance travel isn't feasible, the more important of these questions is the latter.  The ability to locate and hold a party, having the authority to ensure the other party's presence, is paramount.

 

Therefore, in the hypothetical you give, it would - much like Lord Lannister said - depend on where the fight took place, and which authorities were able to apprehend the parties.  If the fight happened in Dorne and both commoners are in Dorne, Dornish law would be used by the Dornish authority (lord?) who hears the case.  If the fight happens in Dorne but the Westerosi is able to make a getaway back into Westeros, the Dornish would likely not have much authority to trespass into the lands of the other Westerosi lords to apprehend the commoner.

 

On the other hand, if the fight were to happen in Dorne and the Westerosi escapes, but the Dornish commoner could track him down in, say, the Stormlands, and have the local lord apprehend him, that lord would likely apply Westerosi law.  Of course, the other option there is that the Stormland lord could choose to extradite the Westerosi back to Dorne where the fight happened to face Dornish law, but that would require a not insignificant amount of resources to transport the prisoner.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Dorne at that time was already a part of 7K, so Prince of Dorne was going to submit to order of the King, whichever that order was going to be. And the only reason, why Tanselle and her friends, weren't chased down and executed, is because Dunk and his 6, won in the Trial of Seven. Thus the will of Gods, is that Dunk and the girl, that he was protecting, were right, while Prince Aerion was in the wrong. Thus there was no legal repercussions for that girl. But if Dunk would have lost, then probably him, and the girl and her companions, would have been executed. And it wouldn't have mattered whether they were caught in Dorne, or in other Kingdom of 7K, they would have been sent to KL, and executed there. So they all were lucky, that Dunk has won.

Perhaps this is so.  Dorne kept many of its customs despite being absorbed into the greater kingdom but sure, Dorne would still follow the king's law.  

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10 hours ago, Relon said:

Without going full first year of law school: the concept of jurisdiction, even in medieval (or medieval-inspired) settings, usually boils down to two main questions.  Where did the incident at issue take place? and where are the adverse parties located?  Especially in societies where quick, long-distance travel isn't feasible, the more important of these questions is the latter.  The ability to locate and hold a party, having the authority to ensure the other party's presence, is paramount.

 

Therefore, in the hypothetical you give, it would - much like Lord Lannister said - depend on where the fight took place, and which authorities were able to apprehend the parties.  If the fight happened in Dorne and both commoners are in Dorne, Dornish law would be used by the Dornish authority (lord?) who hears the case.  If the fight happens in Dorne but the Westerosi is able to make a getaway back into Westeros, the Dornish would likely not have much authority to trespass into the lands of the other Westerosi lords to apprehend the commoner.

 

On the other hand, if the fight were to happen in Dorne and the Westerosi escapes, but the Dornish commoner could track him down in, say, the Stormlands, and have the local lord apprehend him, that lord would likely apply Westerosi law.  Of course, the other option there is that the Stormland lord could choose to extradite the Westerosi back to Dorne where the fight happened to face Dornish law, but that would require a not insignificant amount of resources to transport the prisoner.

I’ve always thought of Dorne as powerful region that is separate from the Seven Kingdoms, but now I think that even if a quarrel happened in Dorne where both parties were nobility, they’ll be trialed under the rule of the Iron Throne, specially if the Westerosi was from one of the Great Houses.

Edited by Lady Jowana

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21 hours ago, Lady Jowana said:

In the Hedge Knight specifically the part where Prince Aerion beats up Tanselle the Dornish girl, the girl ran away to Dorne and didn't demand for justice.

I was wondering if an incident like this ever happened where Westerosi and Dornish commonners fought one another and if they did where will they settle their differences? Westeros or Dorne and which law will they be subjected to?

We don't really know all the differences to Dornish law, but I imagine that they are mostly down to custom, specifically relations between the nobility. Marriage and the like.

In the case of commoners, it appears that lords have a great degree of power on their lands, and can be harsh or lenient depending on their way of doing things. We hear of a boy being sent to the Wall for pinching pepper from Darry's table, and Randall is clearly making up his own punishments in Maidenpool. I doubt therefore it's a matter of Dornish vs 6K law in the formal sense, most differences would be down to local custom and how the local lord/s rolled.

Where there were commoners who committed crime elsewhere turning up on others' lands, I would imagine it would be for the lords to settle between them (assuming both of them cared enough), and appeal to their own liege lord if it couldn't be resolved. Between a Dornish lord and a lord from elsewhere in Westros, my guess is the same would apply, with the ultimate appeal going to the king if necessary. 

All that's conjecture on my part though, as we don't really know much about 7K law, we just get hints based on the text, which is incomplete information.

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In the case of Tanselle specifically, I didn't really see their leaving as a Gecko Brothers rush to the border, so much as them just trying to disappear before anyone decided to punish them. Steely Pate says something about how her uncle decided that if they disappeared they'd hopefully be forgotten. If Dunk lost the trial, and the Iron Throne decided they really did want to punish her, and they tracked her down in Dorne, I expect she'd be subject to king's justice. 

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