Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Makes me wonder if the Stark/Baratheon/Arryn rebellion was already in its way and Lyanna/Brandon/Rhaegar/Aerys actions only triggered it earlier. Maybe Lyanna did a Sansa.

The text never does confirm the when, where, and how Lyanna goes missing, and I'm wary to trust anything in the World book even if its supposedly written by Maester Yandel. If we entertain the account in the book, we have to keep in mind that Maester Yandel authored the book as a gift for King Robert, and as such it would be written in such a way that Robert would find pleasing. Appearances were very important to Robert, therefore the official story is Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's betrothed, Lyanna, making his conquest honorable.

Maester Yandel's account has the abduction taking place a few leagues from Harrenhal, which makes me wonder how that came to be? Shouldn't she have been at home? Is it possible Lyanna had been at Kings Landing and was on her way to Brandon's wedding to Catelyn at Riverrun? After all, Brandon was at Riverrun when he "heard about Lyanna", so where did Brandon go to? Answer: Kings Landing. 

Sansa and Arya are mirroring Ashara and Lyanna. Both Stark sisters were brought to Kings Landing by their father, and both escaped Kings Landing in disguise and at different times.

Arya escaped first after seeing her father beheaded. I propose that Lyanna may have been sent to court as one of Rhaella's ladies in waiting. She may have even done similar things that Arya did outside and inside the castle. 

Sansa mirrors Ashara. Sansa was more concerned about the day to day goings on about court, but Ashara was different in that she was unwed and pregnant. We have to look to Lollys experiences to get a feel for how Ashara moved about? She too would have needed a disguise like Sansa if she had left with Jon Connington.

Arya got into a sword fight with Joffrey while Sansa watched. This may have been a repeat of Lyanna - although I cannot imagine Rhaegar and Ashara acting in quite the same way as Joffrey and Sansa, but Rhaegar and Joffrey are nearly complete inversions of each other with regard to personality and ability. So can we expect an inverted situation? Lyanna could have come upon Rhaegar and Ashara "wielding" a different sort of sword, if you catch my drift.

Arya was at her sword lessons with Syrio when they came to fetch her. Her father had already been injured and taken into custody. Arya of course gets away and goes into hiding. Lyanna may have been fighting with her sword when she was taken. A real sword fight rather than lessons. My personal theory is that it happened much like when Jaime confronts Ned outside Chataya's brothel.

Inside the brothel Ned thinks about his discussion with Lyanna regarding her betrothal to Robert while he's looking for Robert's bastard baby, Barra. He speaks to Littlefinger next about Jon Arryn, and asks why anyone would kill him over Robert's baseborn children. As he's stepping out of the brothel he thinks about Rhaegar and whether or not he'd be the type to frequent brothels, when he's attacked:

Quote

 

  The rain was falling harder now, stinging the eyes and drumming against the ground. Rivers of black water were running down the hill when Jory called out, “My lord,” his voice hoarse with alarm. And in an instant, the street was full of soldiers.

  Ned glimpsed ringmail over leather, gauntlets and greaves, steel helms with golden lions on the crests. Their cloaks clung to their backs, sodden with rain. He had no time to count, but there were ten at least, a line of them, on foot, blocking the street, with longswords and iron-tipped spears. “Behind!” he heard Wyl cry, and when he turned his horse, there were more in back of them, cutting off their retreat. Jory’s sword came singing from its scabbard. “Make way or die!”

  “The wolves are howling,” their leader said. Ned could see rain running down his face. “Such a small pack, though.”

  Littlefinger walked his horse forward, step by careful step. “What is the meaning of this? This is the Hand of the King.”

  “He was the Hand of the King.” The mud muffled the hooves of the blood bay stallion. The line parted before him. On a golden breastplate, the lion of Lannister roared its defiance. “Now, if truth be told, I’m not sure what he is.”

  “Lannister, this is madness,” Littlefinger said. “Let us pass. We are expected back at the castle. What do you think you’re doing?”

  “He knows what he’s doing,” Ned said calmly.

  Jaime Lannister smiled. “Quite true. I’m looking for my brother. You remember my brother, don’t you, Lord Stark? He was with us at Winterfell. Fair-haired, mismatched eyes, sharp of tongue. A short man.”

  “I remember him well,” Ned replied. “It would seem he has met some trouble on the road. My lord father is quite vexed. You would not perchance have any notion of who might have wished my brother ill, would you?”

  “Your brother has been taken at my command, to answer for his crimes,” Ned Stark said.

  Littlefinger groaned in dismay. “My lords—”

  Ser Jaime ripped his longsword from its sheath and urged his stallion forward. “Show me your steel, Lord Eddard. I’ll butcher you like Aerys if I must, but I’d sooner you died with a blade in your hand.” He gave Littlefinger a cool, contemptuous glance. “Lord Baelish, I’d leave here in some haste if I did not care to get bloodstains on my costly clothing.”

  Littlefinger did not need to be urged. “I will bring the City Watch,” he promised Ned. The Lannister line parted to let him through, and closed behind him. Littlefinger put his heels to his mare and vanished around a corner.

  Ned’s men had drawn their swords, but they were three against twenty. Eyes watched from nearby windows and doors, but no one was about to intervene. His party was mounted, the Lannisters on foot save for Jaime himself. A charge might win them free, but it seemed to Eddard Stark that they had a surer, safer tactic. “Kill me,” he warned the Kingslayer, “and Catelyn will most certainly slay Tyrion.”

  Jaime Lannister poked at Ned’s chest with the gilded sword that had sipped the blood of the last of the Dragonkings. “Would she? The noble Catelyn Tully of Riverrun murder a hostage? I think … not.” He sighed. “But I am not willing to chance my brother’s life on a woman’s honor.” Jaime slid the golden sword into its sheath. “So I suppose I’ll let you run back to Robert to tell him how I frightened you. I wonder if he’ll care.” Jaime pushed his wet hair back with his fingers and wheeled his horse around. When he was beyond the line of swordsmen, he glanced back at his captain. “Tregar, see that no harm comes to Lord Stark.”

  “As you say, m’lord.”

  “Still … we wouldn’t want him to leave here entirely unchastened, so”— through the night and the rain, he glimpsed the white of Jaime’s smile—“ kill his men.”

  “No!” Ned Stark screamed, clawing for his sword. Jaime was already cantering off down the street as he heard Wyl shout. Men closed from both sides. Ned rode one down, cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him. Jory Cassel put his heels into his mount and charged. A steel-shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch. A second man reeled away and for an instant Jory was free. Wyl cursed as they pulled him off his dying horse, swords slashing in the rain. Ned galloped to him, bringing his longsword down on Tregar’s helm. The jolt of impact made him grit his teeth. Tregar stumbled to his knees, his lion crest sheared in half, blood running down his face. Heward was hacking at the hands that had seized his bridle when a spear caught him in the belly. Suddenly Jory was back among them, a red rain flying from his sword. “No!” Ned shouted. “Jory, away!” Ned’s horse slipped under him and came crashing down in the mud.

  There was a moment of blinding pain and the taste of blood in his mouth.

  He saw them cut the legs from Jory’s mount and drag him to the earth, swords rising and falling as they closed in around him. When Ned’s horse lurched back to its feet, he tried to rise, only to fall again, choking on his scream. He could see the splintered bone poking through his calf. It was the last thing he saw for a time. The rain came down and down and down.

  When he opened his eyes again, Lord Eddard Stark was alone with his dead. His horse moved closer, caught the rank scent of blood, and galloped away. Ned began to drag himself through the mud, gritting his teeth at the agony in his leg. It seemed to take years. Faces watched from candlelit windows, and people began to emerge from alleys and doors, but no one moved to help.

  Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel’s body in his arms.

  Somewhere the gold cloaks found a litter, but the trip back to the castle was a blur of agony, and Ned lost consciousness more than once. He remembered seeing the Red Keep looming ahead of him in the first grey light of dawn. The rain had darkened the pale pink stone of the massive walls to the color of blood.

 

 

This scene is actually very similar to Ned's fever dream, only in life Ned's party was 3 against Jaime Lannister's 20. Jory Castle and Wyl were with Ned. Notice that Jaime was upset about Catelyn's abduction of his brother, Tyrion. This is clearly a parallel to Lyanna's abduction, only Lyanna fought back.

Having Ned "cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him" seems to be an analog to his men in his fever dream as being wraiths.

It's interesting that the man that Jaime commands to butcher Ned's men is named "Tregar", which sounds eerily like an anagram of Rhaegar. This seems like it might be evidence to support my theory that Jaime dressed in armor that looked like Rhaegar's when attacking Lyanna, and that some "Northmen" (think Weasel Soup) were killed during the attack.

To further the parallel to Rhaegar, Ned brought his longsword down on top of Tregor's helm much like Robert used his hammer on Rhaegar. Tregor stumbles to his knees with blood running down his face.

Before passing out Ned sees the Red Keep, which seems to be a parallel to the red mountains of Dorne, looming in the distance, and thought that the massive pink walls seemed to turn to the color of blood.

Lastly, it is notable that the very next Eddard POV has Ned dreaming his fever dream. 

 

 

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If Aerys was manipulated into ordering his KG away, Tywin is the least likely suspect.  He was far away and mistrusted. Varys would be my bet. 

Varys is certainly blamed for persuading Aerys to open the gates to Tywin's army and ultimately for what followed. There is a certain irony here that if Jaime hadn't offed the pyromancers, Aerys' holocaust would also have wiped out the Lannisters as well. Perhaps that's what really convinced Aerys to let them in as part of an even bigger cunning plan.

[Brad Stark]

I almost wonder if Varys's plan was to put FAgeon (or another Blackfire) on the iron throne BEFORE he even went to King's Landing and brought about Aerys's downfall for that reason.  Certainly, he didn't cause all the events responsible, but this could have been his goal all along, and he could have had considerable influence. 

[PrettyPig]

11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Varys is certainly blamed for persuading Aerys to open the gates to Tywin's army and ultimately for what followed. There is a certain irony here that if Jaime hadn't offed the pyromancers, Aerys' holocaust would also have wiped out the Lannisters as well. Perhaps that's what really convinced Aerys to let them in as part of an even bigger cunning plan.

*Pycelle*

[Matthew.]

25 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The text never does confirm the when, where, and how Lyanna goes missing, and I'm wary to trust anything in the World book even if its supposedly written by Maester Yandel. If we entertain the account in the book, we have to keep in mind that Maester Yandel authored the book as a gift for King Robert, and as such it would be written in such a way that Robert would find pleasing.

The bolded is an important element of the Aerys II sections--in addition, that particular section repeatedly cites Pycelle as a source of information and context, so what that entire section has to say about Aerys II and Tywin should be viewed through that lens.

[Tucu]

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The text never does confirm the when, where, and how Lyanna goes missing, and I'm wary to trust anything in the World book even if its supposedly written by Maester Yandel. If we entertain the account in the book, we have to keep in mind that Maester Yandel authored the book as a gift for King Robert, and as such it would be written in such a way that Robert would find pleasing. Appearances were very important to Robert, therefore the official story is Rhaegar kidnapped Robert's betrothed, Lyanna, making his conquest honorable.

Maester Yandel's account has the abduction taking place a few leagues from Harrenhal, which makes me wonder how that came to be? Shouldn't she have been at home? Is it possible Lyanna had been at Kings Landing and was on her way to Brandon's wedding to Catelyn at Riverrun? After all, Brandon was at Riverrun when he "heard about Lyanna", so where did Brandon go to? Answer: Kings Landing. 

Sansa and Arya are mirroring Ashara and Lyanna. Both Stark sisters were brought to Kings Landing by their father, and both escaped Kings Landing in disguise and at different times.

Arya escaped first after seeing her father beheaded. I propose that Lyanna may have been sent to court as one of Rhaella's ladies in waiting. She may have even done similar things that Arya did outside and inside the castle. 

Sansa mirrors Ashara. Sansa was more concerned about the day to day goings on about court, but Ashara was different in that she was unwed and pregnant. We have to look to Lollys experiences to get a feel for how Ashara moved about? She too would have needed a disguise like Sansa if she had left with Jon Connington.

Arya got into a sword fight with Joffrey while Sansa watched. This may have been a repeat of Lyanna - although I cannot imagine Rhaegar and Ashara acting in quite the same way as Joffrey and Sansa, but Rhaegar and Joffrey are nearly complete inversions of each other with regard to personality and ability. So can we expect an inverted situation? Lyanna could have come upon Rhaegar and Ashara "wielding" a different sort of sword, if you catch my drift.

Arya was at her sword lessons with Syrio when they came to fetch her. Her father had already been injured and taken into custody. Arya of course gets away and goes into hiding. Lyanna may have been fighting with her sword when she was taken. A real sword fight rather than lessons. My personal theory is that it happened much like when Jaime confronts Ned outside Chataya's brothel.

Inside the brothel Ned thinks about his discussion with Lyanna regarding her betrothal to Robert while he's looking for Robert's bastard baby, Barra. He speaks to Littlefinger next about Jon Arryn, and asks why anyone would kill him over Robert's baseborn children. As he's stepping out of the brothel he thinks about Rhaegar and whether or not he'd be the type to frequent brothels, when he's attacked:

 

This scene is actually very similar to Ned's fever dream, only in life Ned's party was 3 against Jaime Lannister's 20. Jory Castle and Wyl were with Ned. Notice that Jaime was upset about Catelyn's abduction of his brother, Tyrion. This is clearly a parallel to Lyanna's abduction, only Lyanna fought back.

Having Ned "cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him" seems to be an analog to his men in his fever dream as being wraiths.

It's notable that the man that Jaime commands to butcher Ned's men is named "Tregar", which sounds eerily like an anagram of Rhaegar. This seems like it might be evidence to support my theory that Jaime dressed in armor that looked like Rhaegar's when attacking Lyanna, and that some "Northmen" (think Weasel Soup) were killed during the attack.

To further the parallel to Rhaegar, Ned brought his longsword down on top of Tregor's helm much like Robert used his hammer on Rhaegar. Tregor stumbles to his knees with blood running down his face.

Lastly, before passing out Ned sees the Red Keep, which seems to be a parallel to the Red Mountains of Dorne, looming in the distance, and thought that the massive pink walls seemed to turn to the color of blood.

 

Interesting read. Have you noticed that the only other Tregar in the story is a "valyrian prince"? Tregar Ormollen is the merchant prince from Lys that "stole" Lynesse from Jorah Mormont.Is there some parallel there to look at? Robert as Jorah, Lyanna as Lynesse, Rhaegar as Tregar. Lynesse is said to be the main concubine of Tregar and more powerful than his wife.

[PrettyPig]

32 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Interesting read. Have you noticed that the only other Tregar in the story is a "valyrian prince"? Tregar Ormollen is the merchant prince from Lys that "stole" Lynesse from Jorah Mormont.Is there some parallel there to look at? Robert as Jorah, Lyanna as Lynesse, Rhaegar as Tregar. Lynesse is said to be the main concubine of Tregar and more powerful than his wife.

You might be better served to look at this relationship in different terms... that is, that Tregar Ormollen didn’t “steal” Lynesse from Jorah at all.   Lynesse totally bailed on Jorah all on her own once he was no longer able to provide her what she wanted.    Lynesse was so determined to have what she wanted that she was willing to become a glorified prostitute and give over her body as necessary to make that happen, thus becoming Tregar’s favorite concubine.  Jorah had nothing to do with Lynesse’s personal choices beyond enabling them as a total chump. 

The moral of the story is that a woman was his downfall- he gave her his seed and he gave her his soul, and then she disappeared as he fell to ruin.

What’s fun is figuring out who else in the current story this applies to...there are a couple.  

[Tucu]

25 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

You might be better served to look at this relationship in different terms... that is, that Tregar Ormollen didn’t “steal” Lynesse from Jorah at all.   Lynesse totally bailed on Jorah all on her own once he was no longer able to provide her what she wanted.    Lynesse was so determined to have what she wanted that she was willing to become a glorified prostitute and give over her body as necessary to make that happen, thus becoming Tregar’s favorite concubine.  Jorah had nothing to do with Lynesse’s personal choices beyond enabling them as a total chump. 

The moral of the story is that a woman was his downfall- he gave her his seed and he gave her his soul, and then she disappeared as he fell to ruin.

What’s fun is figuring out who else in the current story this applies to...there are a couple.  

I was thinking about Lyanna not as a girl in love nor as a victim of an abduction. She would be one of the main forces behind the blood sacrifice plot. We have the GoHH telling this to Arya in the Riverlands:

Quote

I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!

If we are looking at parallels between Lyanna and Arya, surely the wolf blood and death should be part of her story.

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Interesting read. Have you noticed that the only other Tregar in the story is a "valyrian prince"? Tregar Ormollen is the merchant prince from Lys that "stole" Lynesse from Jorah Mormont.Is there some parallel there to look at? Robert as Jorah, Lyanna as Lynesse, Rhaegar as Tregar. Lynesse is said to be the main concubine of Tregar and more powerful than his wife.

I think Pretty Pig was correct in suggesting that it was Ser Duncan that paralleled Jorah at Summerhal, but there are times where Ned also mirrors Ser Duncan, especially when Dunk thinks to himself that he's "Dunk the lunk". Ned's honor has blinded him to danger, so if anyone "stole" Lyanna from anyone it would be from an unsuspecting Ned.

Ned's attack outside of Chataya's as being mirrored in Lynesse's choice in becoming a prostitute suggests that Lyanna was connected to either brothels or the profession. The prostitutes in the series have been for the most part portrayed as willing or voluntary, so whatever happened to place Lyanna near or inside a brothel, she was there of her own volition. Of course I think its important to understand that it could have been just a disguise or a place to hide, just as Littlefinger hid Catelyn in one of his brothels. Arya was persuaded by Yoren to dress as a boy, so perhaps Lyanna was persuaded to dress as a prostitute, but by whom? Parallels suggest it was someone "Baelish". Maybe Rhaegar told Lyanna to hide in a brothel? Just throwing that idea out there.

 

11 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

You might be better served to look at this relationship in different terms... that is, that Tregar Ormollen didn’t “steal” Lynesse from Jorah at all.   Lynesse totally bailed on Jorah all on her own once he was no longer able to provide her what she wanted.    Lynesse was so determined to have what she wanted that she was willing to become a glorified prostitute and give over her body as necessary to make that happen, thus becoming Tregar’s favorite concubine.  Jorah had nothing to do with Lynesse’s personal choices beyond enabling them as a total chump. 

The moral of the story is that a woman was his downfall- he gave her his seed and he gave her his soul, and then she disappeared as he fell to ruin.

What’s fun is figuring out who else in the current story this applies to...there are a couple.  

I recall that you have some theory regarding brothels and Lyanna. What was the gist again?

[Melifeather]

I was thinking about Ned bringing his long sword down on Tregar’s head...doesn’t that seem symbolic that it’s Ned’s fault that people thought Rhaegar abducted Lyanna? I don’t have any ideas yet how that timeline would work, but it does seem possible that Ned led a force of Northmen that were in a fight over Lyanna near a brothel.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was thinking about Ned bringing his long sword down on Tregar’s head...doesn’t that seem symbolic that it’s Ned’s fault that people thought Rhaegar abducted Lyanna? I don’t have any ideas yet how that timeline would work, but it does seem possible that Ned led a force of Northmen that were in a fight over Lyanna near a brothel.

The original name of the Inn at the crossroads was the Bellringer Inn (as in "Then maybe I'll go find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her"). This is where Tyrion was captured and it operates as a brothel in ASoS and as an orphanage in AFFC.

This is also where Brienne looks at Willow and thinks that she might be Arya disguised as a commoner.

[PrettyPig]

38 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I recall that you have some theory regarding brothels and Lyanna. What was the gist again?

I have lots of random thoughts and synaptic firings about wherever whores go scattered elsewhere, as you know...nothing concrete yet.   I will probably post something in General once I  figure out the puzzle.

 

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I was thinking about Ned bringing his long sword down on Tregar’s head...doesn’t that seem symbolic that it’s Ned’s fault that people thought Rhaegar abducted Lyanna? I don’t have any ideas yet how that timeline would work, but it does seem possible that Ned led a force of Northmen that were in a fight over Lyanna near a brothel.

 

1)  or that Ned is defending himself from someone under orders of a Lannister.

2)  Battle of the Bells comes to mind.

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The original name of the Inn at the crossroads was the Bellringer Inn (as in "Then maybe I'll go find that black-haired girl and ring her bell for her"). This is where Tyrion was captured and it operates as a brothel in ASoS and as an orphanage in AFFC.

This is also where Brienne looks at Willow and thinks that she might be Arya disguised as a commoner.

I really like this! Especially because it’s the same place Tyrion was taken. The connection to the brothel strengthens the theory.

I’m really thinking the Dunk the lunk thick as a castle wall really does applies to Ned, especially if he was tricked.

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I really like this! Especially because it’s the same place Tyrion was taken. 

I’m really thinking the Dunk the lunk thick as a castle wall really does applies to Ned, especially if he was tricked.

There are more details about the Inn that might be relevant. Jon Heddle forged a three-headed black dragon as a sign for the inn. One of the heads of the sign ended in the Quite Isle, but by then it was red from the rust. So a Blackfyre that ended as a Targaryen?

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are more details about the Inn that might be relevant. Jon Heddle forged a three-headed black dragon as a sign for the inn. One of the heads of the sign ended in the Quite Isle, but by then it was red from the rust. So a Blackfyre that ended as a Targaryen?

Or the three Kingsguard? I have been asserting that one of them, either Arthur Dayne or Gerold Hightower isn’t really dead just like readers suspect the gravedigger is Sandor. Or only the one from Dorne died and the other two lived?

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Or the three Kingsguard? I have been asserting that one of them, either Arthur Dayne or Gerold Hightower isn’t really dead just like readers suspect the gravedigger is Sandor.

I am thinking around the lines of Targaryen bastards cared at the Inn by Lyanna and co; one of them ending as Aegon; the other two yet to be located. We have Robert's bastards all over the place; maybe we have Aerys and Rhaegar bastards too? We also have 6 of Rhaegar's rubies ending in the Quite Isle and the Elder Brother is still awaiting for a seventh.

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I am thinking around the lines of Targaryen bastards cared at the Inn by Lyanna and co; one of them ending as Aegon; the other two yet to be located. We have Robert's bastards all over the place; maybe we have Aerys and Rhaegar bastards too? We also have 6 of Rhaegar's rubies ending in the Quite Isle and the Elder Brother is still awaiting for a seventh.

I ascribe to a different theory for Rhaegar’s rubies as being something more in line with what the Elder Brother said about retrieving seven rubies from the river. It’s been suggested that there are seven people who seem(ed) to represent the seven gods of the Faith carrying out Andal justice, with Sandor representing the Stranger. I would add Robert as the Smith, Tywin as the Father or Warrior, Catelyn as the Crone, and maybe Brienne as the Maiden. No theory who the Mother would be unless it’s Septa/Lady Lenore.

[PrettyPig]

54 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There are more details about the Inn that might be relevant. Jon Heddle forged a three-headed black dragon as a sign for the inn. One of the heads of the sign ended in the Quite Isle, but by then it was red from the rust. So a Blackfyre that ended as a Targaryen?

I am loving this line of thought more than you can possibly know.    Thank you for this reminder.

Here's the full passage about the Clanking Dragon:

Quote

"Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight. He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.” “Is the dragon sign still there?” asked Podrick. “No,” said Septon Meribald. “When the smith’s son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust."

Most intrigued by the underlined, and the fact that one member of House Heddle, "Black Tom", supported the Blackfyres in the 2nd Rebellion.   After the current owner of the inn (now known as the Inn of the Crossroads) is killed, the place not only becomes a brothel, but a rendezvous point for the Brotherhood Without Banners, which is a modern mirror to the Kingswood Brotherhood, the group of thieves that I am 99.9% certain was part of a fledgling 6th Blackfyre rebellion.   Beautiful!

[Melifeather]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:39 PM, PrettyPig said:

I am loving this line of thought more than you can possibly know.    Thank you for this reminder.

Here's the full passage about the Clanking Dragon:

Most intrigued by the underlined, and the fact that one member of House Heddle, "Black Tom", supported the Blackfyres in the 2nd Rebellion.   After the current owner of the inn (now known as the Inn of the Crossroads) is killed, the place not only becomes a brothel, but a rendezvous point for the Brotherhood Without Banners, which is a modern mirror to the Kingswood Brotherhood, the group of thieves that I am 99.9% certain was part of a fledgling 6th Blackfyre rebellion.   Beautiful!

What do you think the symbolism behind how the black iron dragon head turned red with rust from the river might be?

i guess this could apply to Aegon if he’s presented as Rhaegar’s son. He came to Westeros from a river, but maybe the rust equates a Blackfyre pretending to be Targaryen?

Edited to add: revisiting the criteria for Rhaegar's rubies - they must be connected to the Trident somehow. I'm thinking we should scrap Robert and Tywin and replace with Gendry as the Smith, JonCon as the Father, and fAegon as the Warrior. The "prince" would have to be the trained warrior, so I think it should be fAegon. 

If the Elder Brother was talking about these people, then we should suspect that the Faith, and maybe even the Citadel, is very active in conspiring with Varys and Illyrio with training fAegon to be a king. 

JonCon believes fAegon is Rhaegar's son, but like someone pointed out, he was part of the Golden Company for awhile before joining up with fAegon, so he truly cannot be certain that he is. But to me this is actually evidence that Lenore is Ashara, because if she were the one to tell him that he was Aegon, he'd be more likely to believe her, because he helped her escape Kings Landing. And if Ashara is part of this Blackfyre conspiracy, then she's the Mother. I'd still keep Catelyn as the Crone, and Brienne then as the Maiden.

So who is fAegon? He'd have to be a Blackfyre to fulfill the rusted-red iron dragon head., and it opens up a couple possibilities: 1) Did the baby swap with the Pisswater Prince really happen? And 2) If it did occur, then its possible Sam is the real Aegon. 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

*Pycelle*

D... ooooh 

 

... which brings us back to Tywin.