Heresy 210 and the Babes in the Wood

[Tucu]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

What do you think the symbolism behind how the black iron dragon head turned red with rust from the river might be?

i guess this could apply to Aegon if he’s presented as Rhaegar’s son. He came to Westeros from a river, but maybe the rust equates a Blackfyre pretending to be Targaryen?

Edited to add: revisiting the criteria for Rhaegar's rubies - they must be connected to the Trident somehow. I'm thinking we should scrap Robert and Tywin and replace with Gendry as the Smith, JonCon as the Father, and fAegon as the Warrior. The "prince" would have to be the trained warrior, so I think it should be fAegon. 

If the Elder Brother was talking about these people, then we should suspect that the Faith, and maybe even the Citadel, is very active in conspiring with Varys and Illyrio with training fAegon to be a king. 

JonCon believes fAegon is Rhaegar's son, but like someone pointed out, he was part of the Golden Company for awhile before joining up with fAegon, so he truly cannot be certain that he is. But to me this is actually evidence that Lenore is Ashara, because if she were the one to tell him that he was Aegon, he'd be more likely to believe her, because he helped her escape Kings Landing. And if Ashara is part of this Blackfyre conspiracy, then she's the Mother. I'd still keep Catelyn as the Crone, and Brienne then as the Maiden.

So who is fAegon? He'd have to be a Blackfyre to fulfill the rusted-red iron dragon head., and it opens up a couple possibilities: 1) Did the baby swap with the Pisswater Prince really happen? And 2) If it did occur, then its possible Sam is the real Aegon. 

I am thinking that Aegon is a Targ bastard (Aerys' or Rhaegar's) that ended in Varys' hands; Varys trades in Robert's bastards too. He is being sold as a Blackfyre to the Golden Company and as a Targ to JonCon. GRRM probably extended the black dragon symbolism from Blackfyre to any Targ bastard. After all “Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon"

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I am thinking that Aegon is a Targ bastard (Aerys' or Rhaegar's) that ended in Varys' hands; Varys trades in Robert's bastards too. He is being sold as a Blackfyre to the Golden Company and as a Targ to JonCon. GRRM probably extended the black dragon symbolism from Blackfyre to any Targ bastard. After all “Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon"

Ah you mean Young Griff/Aegon as the bastard son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Ashara Dayne, as suggested earlier?

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah you mean Young Griff/Aegon as the bastard son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Ashara Dayne, as suggested earlier?

Rhaegar and Ashara or any other combination. I am thinking that Rhaegar and company were collecting Targ bastards either to protect them from Aerys' dragon awakening experiments or to use them on Rhaegar's own experiments. Both of them were obsessed with dragons so it could be either way.

One on them ended with Varys; the rest with other Targ loyalists or family.

[Brad Stark]

I've posted it before, I believe FAgeon is Illyrio and Septa Lemoore's son, and Lemoore is either Serra or his first wife. 

[PrettyPig]

I always found it odd/ suspicious that despite Aerys’ love for the ladies in his early years and the idea that he was on par with Aegon the Unworthy (who he happens to parallel in about 50+ ways, I might add) w/r/t his number of mistresses, we don’t hear about any bastard dragonseed.    

So either Aerys was really careful/lucky, he was shooting mostly blanks, he was having his spawn found and then doing something with them, or he had spawn he didn’t know about.

Over the years I’ve toyed with #3 and #4 as well as a combo of both-may have a post here somewhere about it, will have to look.    Anyway, I think there’s a chance Aerys was up to no good with his bastards, and that Rhaegar may have even started carrying on the family tradition for reasons of “duty”.       

The other option I like is that there’s a hidden dragonseed out there that is actually older than Rhaegar and who poses a real threat to current Targaryen rule, obv a common motif throughput the story.    (Or, conversely, Rhaegar himself is the bastard dragonseed while the rightful heir is floating out there unknown.)

[Melifeather]

The rusted-red IRON dragon head does indicate a Blackfyre though. Recall that Blackfyre is a sword too and swords are iron. Not to mention that the origin of the black iron dragon head sign was made by a Blackfyre loyalist.

[PrettyPig]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The rusted-red IRON dragon head does indicate a Blackfyre though. Recall that Blackfyre is a sword too and swords are iron. Not to mention that the origin of the black iron dragon head sign was made by a Blackfyre loyalist.

Pedantry moment:   The dragon wasn’t made by a Blackfyre loyalist...members of the Heddle family only became such later, AFTER the head had turned red.    The dragon started out as a Targaryen symbol and was “rediscovered” as Blackfyre.

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Pedantry moment:   The dragon wasn’t made by a Blackfyre loyalist...members of the Heddle family only became such later, AFTER the head had turned red.    The dragon started out as a Targaryen symbol and was “rediscovered” as Blackfyre.

Well that's confusing.   I'll have to think about what that twist could mean!

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well that's confusing.   I'll have to think about what that twist could mean!

OK - I've already come up with a possible answer - why would Varys and Illyrio back a Targaryen prince? They wouldn't unless they knew he was a Blackfyre.

[JNR]

16 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Lynesse was so determined to have what she wanted that she was willing to become a glorified prostitute and give over her body as necessary to make that happen

Melania.

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

So either Aerys was really careful/lucky, he was shooting mostly blanks, he was having his spawn found and then doing something with them, or he had spawn he didn’t know about.

I think the text has suggested some candidates, Aurane Waters being the most obvious, and there's a northern one as well...

[Brad Stark]

Aegon the unworthy had 4-6 bastards that ended up significant in some way, and he publicly acknowledged them.  Aerys wasn't as prolific, as he only did this in his youth, not his whole life and he never acknowledged anyone.  I think it is reasonable to assume they both fathered bastards at the same rate. 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well that's confusing.   I'll have to think about what that twist could mean!

We have a symbol that started as a black iron representation of the Targaryens, then it was interpreted as a Blackfyre symbol and ended as a Targaryen symbol again. The same substance meaning different things to different people. Isn't this Aegon VI's  path?

 

[PrettyPig]

53 minutes ago, JNR said:

I think the text has suggested some candidates, Aurane Waters being the most obvious, and there's a northern one as well...

I am completely comfortable with this assumption...

 

27 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Aegon the unworthy had 4-6 bastards that ended up significant in some way, and he publicly acknowledged them.  Aerys wasn't as prolific, as he only did this in his youth, not his whole life and he never acknowledged anyone.  I think it is reasonable to assume they both fathered bastards at the same rate. 

Aegon IV had 13 known bastards in total, even though he didn’t legitimize all of them.  

The affair of his that interests me the most is that one with Falena Stokeworth.   This relationship predates his marriage to Naerys and has no known offspring... but if there were a child, it would be older than his first legitimate son Daeron II.  

Falena Stokeworth also married into House Lothston after her affair with Aegon, but he continued to pay special visits to Harrenhal for a year or two after.   

Aegon the Unworthy and Aerys II have a lot in common, so this intrigues me greatly.

[Tucu]

double post.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

We have a symbol that started as a black iron representation of the Targaryens, then it was interpreted as a Blackfyre symbol and ended as a Targaryen symbol again. The same substance meaning different things to different people. Isn't this Aegon VI's  path?

 

Correct. That is my interpretation as well. It may be red from rust, but its still (black) iron underneath.

Jon Heddle, aka Long Jon Heddle took over the inn in his retirement. He forged a three headed dragon out of black iron that clanked in the wind. At that time is wasn't a problem - even Jaehaerys and his queen stayed there. By the time Jon's son inherited the inn and was an old man, a Blackfyre Rebellion had broke out in 196 AC. The black dragon was viewed as a symbol of support for the rebel forces, so Lord Darry cut it down and threw part of it in the Trident. By the time it washed up on the Quiet Isle the dragon head had rusted red. So I am interpreting the symbolism as Targaryen, Blackfyre, then Targaryen again, but because the red of the dragon is "rusted iron" - I am interpreting it as being a false Targaryen, which would fit the description of "the mummer's dragon". Plus we already know Varys is a Blackfyre supporter, so why would he want to support Aegon if he truly was Rhaegar's son? Therefore he's been told he's a Targaryen, and the people around him think he's a Targaryen, but he's really a Blackfyre. The mystery is to solve who his parents are.

Here's the whole passage that tells about the Inn at the Crossroads, which is an important place for many reasons throughout the books: 

Quote

 

When Podrick asked the name of the inn where they hoped to spend the night, Septon Meribald seized upon the question eagerly, perhaps to take their minds off the grisly sentinels along the roadside. “The Old Inn, some call it. There has been an inn there for many hundreds of years, though this inn was only raised during the reign of the first Jaehaerys, the king who built the kingsroad. Jaehaerys and his queen slept there during their journeys, it is said. For a time the inn was known as the Two Crowns in their honor, until one innkeep built a bell tower, and changed it to the Bellringer Inn. Later it passed to a crippled knight named Long Jon Heddle, who took up ironworking when he grew too old to fight. He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon.”

  “Is the dragon sign still there?” asked Podrick.

  “No,” said Septon Meribald. “When the smith’s son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sight of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign into pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust. The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn. In those days, the Trident flowed beneath its back door, and half its rooms were built out over the water. Guests could throw a line out their window and catch trout, it’s said. There was a ferry landing here as well, so travelers could cross to Lord Harroway’s Town and Whitewalls.”

 

 

 

[Tucu]

55 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Correct. That is my interpretation as well. It may be red from rust, but its still (black) iron underneath.

Jon Heddle, aka Long Jon Heddle took over the inn in his retirement. He forged a three headed dragon out of black iron that clanked in the wind. At that time is wasn't a problem - even Jaehaerys and his queen stayed there. By the time Jon's son inherited the inn and was an old man, a Blackfyre Rebellion had broke out in 196 AC. The black dragon was viewed as a symbol of support for the rebel forces, so Lord Darry cut it down and threw part of it in the Trident. By the time it washed up on the Quiet Isle the dragon head had rusted red. So I am interpreting the symbolism as Targaryen, Blackfyre, then Targaryen again, but because the red of the dragon is "rusted iron" - I am interpreting it as being a false Targaryen, which would fit the description of "the mummer's dragon". Plus we already know Varys is a Blackfyre supporter, so why would he want to support Aegon if he truly was Rhaegar's son? Therefore he's been told he's a Targaryen, and the people around him think he's a Targaryen, but he's really a Blackfyre. The mystery is to solve who his parents are.

Here's the whole passage that tells about the Inn at the Crossroads, which is an important place for many reasons throughout the books: 

 

 

Are Varys and Illyrio Blackfyre supporters or just equal opportunity dragon manipulators and investors?

From a genetics perspective there is not much difference between a Targ and a Blackfyre. I think that they do not care about this.

[Brad Stark]

Do we know for certain Varys is a Blackfire supporter?  I know I've suggested it before, but I didn't think we had proof. 

[PrettyPig]

52 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It may be red from rust, but its still (black) iron underneath

In essence, a Blackfyre, which is still a Targaryen.

 

55 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

So I am interpreting the symbolism as Targaryen, Blackfyre, then Targaryen again, but because the red of the dragon is "rusted iron" - I am interpreting it as being a false Targaryen, which would fit the description of "the mummer's dragon".

I don’t know about “false”...iron that has rusted is still iron, there’s nothing false about it really.     The mummer’s dragon to me would be something pretending to be iron but is really copper or whatever.  

59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

One of the dragon’s heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust. The innkeep never hung another sign, so men forgot the dragon and took to calling the place the River Inn.

The now-red dragon shows up in a secluded place many years later, but it makes no difference because everyone forgets about it.   Interesting.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I think the text has suggested some candidates, Aurane Waters being the most obvious, and there's a northern one as well...

Aurane is an acknowledged bastard of a former Lord Velaryon, so there would have to be a scenario where a Lord Velaryon would falsely acknowledge one of Aerys' bastards.

[PrettyPig]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

From a genetics perspective there is not much difference between a Targ and a Blackfyre. I think that they do not care about this.

There is no genetic difference—it is all Targaryen.   Both Daeron and Daemon were products of Targ-Targ incest no matter who you think their actual parents were.   

Since Daeron’s wife was Martell and Daemon’s was Tyroshi, and all their descendants probably engaged in some combo of incest and marriage to other non- Targ houses, the percentage of true bloodline remaining would be about the same.    Blackfyre is still Targaryen even without the name.