Those Blasted Starks

[Curled Finger]

Tangent?  Me?  I will save that for a topic I don't need help with!  Sam reads this to Jon: 

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"   ASOS Sam 1 

So someone wrote about TLH if nothing else.  Does a written account of an event or person make it more credible?  That gives us 3 independent references about him.  Her.   Them.  Now hang on there.   You prove the point of the problem I'm having that prompted this topic.   You only list TLH as seeking assistance, not with fighting the others, when we have a single line of text to prove that TLH does indeed fight others.  Maybe with dragon steel even.   This is a common disconnect.   Or I am wrong?   TLH is more of an idea to me than person.   I don't care what his real name is or where he's actually from.    When I first began the research I was convinced he was the guy who became Bran the Builder.   I think that if the solution to a problem lies in Westeros then there will be a regional hero.   I think we get just this 1 line to make us understand that all the legends are roads leading to the same castle.   Someone drove the others back.   Someone enlisted the aid of the children.   Someone formed the Nightswatch.   How likely is it that Jamie or Jon or Dany could pull all of that off?   

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Tangent?  Me?  I will save that for a topic I don't need help with!  Sam reads this to Jon: 

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"   ASOS Sam 1 

Bloody hell, how did I forget that passage? I must have read/listened to it hundreds of times by now!

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

So someone wrote about TLH if nothing else.  Does a written account of an event or person make it more credible?  That gives us 3 independent references about him.  Her.   Them.  Now hang on there.   

I would think so, yes. Then again, if AA and the PtWP are the same as both maester Aemon and Mel seem to believe iirc, then there are written accounts there as well. 

Is it at all significant that in the quote you provided of Sam and Jon's convo the "last hero" is not capitalised? Martin is usually very, very deliberate w/ this type of detail... Like when Mel thinks about looking into the flames for a glimpse of AA/her king/whatever and Red Rahloo showing her only Snow - not snow. 

 

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You prove the point of the problem I'm having that prompted this topic.   You only list TLH as seeking assistance, not with fighting the others, when we have a single line of text to prove that TLH does indeed fight others. 

That was just me expressing myself poorly...  from what we know, "both" LH and AA fought the WWs. I was just trying to list each hero's traits or whatever info we have on them, besides they both having fought/defeated the WWs. 

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Maybe with dragon steel even.   This is a common disconnect.   Or I am wrong?   TLH is more of an idea to me than person.   I don't care what his real name is or where he's actually from.    When I first began the research I was convinced he was the guy who became Bran the Builder.

W/ what we know so far, that's still entirely possible...

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 I think that if the solution to a problem lies in Westeros then there will be a regional hero.   I think we get just this 1 line to make us understand that all the legends are roads leading to the same castle.   Someone drove the others back.   Someone enlisted the aid of the children.   Someone formed the Nightswatch.   

Very possibly. Or not. It's just impossible to be sure about it at this point.

 

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

How likely is it that Jamie or Jon or Dany could pull all of that off?   

Phewww. All have qualities that could make any of them "the one true saviour hero messiah yadda yadda yadda". But I very much doubt .Martin is gonna go down that route.

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bloody hell, how did I forget that passage? I must have read/listened to it hundreds of times by now!

I would think so, yes. Then again, if AA and the PtWP are the same as both maester Aemon and Mel seem to believe iirc, then there are written accounts there as well. 

Is it at all significant that in the quote you provided of Sam and Jon's convo the "last hero" is not capitalised? Martin is usually very, very deliberate w/ this type of detail... Like when Mel thinks about looking into the flames for a glimpse of AA/her king/whatever and Red Rahloo showing her only Snow - not snow. 

 

That was just me expressing myself poorly...  from what we know, "both" LH and AA fought the WWs. I was just trying to list each hero's traits or whatever info we have on them, besides they both having fought/defeated the WWs. 

W/ what we know so far, that's still entirely possible...

Very possibly. Or not. It's just impossible to be sure about it at this point.

 

Phewww. All have qualities that could make any of them "the one true saviour hero messiah yadda yadda yadda". But I very much doubt .Martin is gonna go down that route.

@kissdbyfire, if this is the only line of text you forget TODAY you're doing great.   At least you didn't quote Arya with Tywin at Harrenhal!   

I'm with you for the most part here.   There is no way to be sure, but it is doubtful that any of our myriad heroes could actually pull the entire thing off without a great deal of help.   I think that is the whole point--not 1 last hero, but many last heroes.  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, again, looking at the LH and AA, I can't help but be intrigued about the fact that we have (literally?) zero commonalities/similarities between the two legends. The very basic:

- LH:

had a group w/ him, w/ humans and animals

seeks out another race to ask for help

- AA:

works alone

blood sacrifice

magical weapon 

I would expect for a legend that has been extrapolated and imported from a far-away land to have at least some sort of connection or similarity or something w/ the original (true) story. This is something that I have often thought about, but not sure where to go w/ it. 

There are more similarities. I wrote a post about it towards the top third of page 4 of this thread. 

How dare you skip reading every single post! 

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

There are more similarities. I wrote a post about it towards the top third of page 4 of this thread. 

How dare you skip reading every single post! 

   

[kissdbyfire]

On 7/31/2018 at 10:20 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

Fond it, har! And I'm afraid it's worse than skipping a few posts... I had read it - and enjoyed it, I might add - and then forgot I had read it...

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First, and probably most important, is the idea that they both triumph over darkness to bring the light. This darkness would be the Others. 

Or not? Could it be we have two separate cataclysmic-level events? And maybe one puts the other in motion, and they sort of become one thing. But both (or more?) need to be defeated, and each requires a certain skill/item/gift? 

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Obviously there is no way to determine whether or not it could be two different heroes doing this in two different areas but this is a striking similarity in the telling of the two legendary figures. They are the hero that brought back the light. Of course, there is no way to determine whether or not they both "saved the day" (pun intended) from separate locations but such a monumental concept would seem odd for it to happen so far apart.

This defeating darkness/WWs is, in my eyes, the only real similarity between the two.

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Damn, your text disappeared... I'll come back to it.

Here:

"Also, Waymar's encounter with the Others in the Prologue seems to indicate that the Others were looking for something special in either the sword or the person wielding it. This could be an indicator that only one person is mean to "save the day". Or not."

---

I lean towards "not" here. My best guess at the moment is that there is something, a trait, a material, something, that they have special interest in, either b/c it can kill them or different reasons. But this more than one person will have whatever this something turns out to be.

 

 

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Damn it. Every time now I try to break your post up, the quoted is eating the text!!!! 

Here:

"Second, both legends involve the breaking, or re-forging, of their swords. Azor Ahai famously breaks his sword three times before stabbing Nissa Nissa and the sword works. Meanwhile, the Last Hero legend tells us that his sword was so cold that it snaps when he used it. But later, we are told from Samwell's readings that the Last Hero used a dragonsteel sword to kill the Others. This presumably happens after he finds the Others. These two stories of gaining the magical sword are different in the details, but both involve the breaking of their original swords before wielding the magical one."

---

Interesting. I have to think and reread a few bits. But yeah, very interesting. 

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A minor similarity in the two stories is that they both had companions. The Last Hero had his 12, and Stannis lets us know in Jon XI of Storm that "Even Azor Ahai did not win his war alone". Sometimes the readership forgets this subtle line from the Stan Man. It doesn't mean he is talking about the 12 companions, but interesting to note. 

I have always read Stannis' line to mean Nissa Nissa. Interesting. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Or not? Could it be we have two separate cataclysmic-level events?

It could be, but I tend to think it was one worldwide disaster, probably caused by the second moon explosion bringing meteors to Planetos (LML's theory). For me, the similarities between the two legends of defeating darkness to bring back light mean it was probably one event. Also, both legends required a special sword to defeat the darkness.

Of course I could be wrong.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I lean towards "not" here. My best guess at the moment is that there is something, a trait, a material, something, that they have special interest in, either b/c it can kill them or different reasons. But this more than one person will have whatever this something turns out to be.

Definitely a possibility. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Interesting. I have to think and reread a few bits. But yeah, very interesting. 

The telling of how the sword is broken is obviously very different. However, the fact that both legends involve a broken sword then the hero acquiring a new, special sword to save the day is a glaringly specific similarlity.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have always read Stannis' line to mean Nissa Nissa. Interesting

Given the context of the situation and discussion it would seem out of place for Stannis to be talking to Jon as if he was going to be his Nissa Nissa, right?