Those Blasted Starks

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I have always thought the Last Hero, Eldric, Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, and Neferion are all the same person. The myth (and person's name) has just been changed in the thousands of years of the retelling.

There is this from the World Book.

Quote

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

Forgive me if this idea is already understood and established by you all. I did not read through the whole thread before posting. 

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Unless there was some sort of inter-dimensional wormhole or something going on, I think that you meant Lancasters.

I think the speculation that TLH and/or all the Brandons being a compilation of people and stories has merit. In our own historical lore both King Arthur and Robin Hood have gone through several revisions, additions of characters and reevaluations of the meanings of their tropes as society has evolved and changed through the centuries. All oral traditions suffer/benefit from this and even writing it down has very little effect on the permanence of these tales. We are still rewriting them today.

Ah dang it and I was really trying to use the right names there.  So much for conscious effort and thanks for untangling the truth in that.  

Yes, it does seem to be the popular position that TLH and the Brandons to some degree, are compilations.   How about Azor Ahai?  Eldric Shadowchaser?  Ser Galladon? 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I have always thought the Last Hero, Eldric, Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, and Neferion are all the same person. The myth (and person's name) has just been changed in the thousands of years of the retelling.

There is this from the World Book.

Forgive me if this idea is already understood and established by you all. I did not read through the whole thread before posting. 

I sort of agree but disagree at the same time. And I'm sure I won't be able to express my thoughts properly, so apologies in advance. 

I think there was "someone" who was instrumental in pushing Winter back. Or in pushing the WWs back... or, say, in bringing back summer and the light of day. Or all of the above combined. I also think this "someone" may have been more than one person. But I don't think there were numerous "someones". So, yeah, maybe all the ones you mention are, in truth, one person and the differences we see in each legend has to do w/ he culture were it originates. Another possibility imo is that there was really only one person, and this one person saved the day (pun intended) w/ help from others. And since the LN likely was a world-wide event, far-away (from Westeros) lands that were also affected by it created their own mythologies about the world being saved. And even w/o a "character" of their own, they create a legend about a saviour figure to explain events. 

Not sure I made much sense.

[Curled Finger]

17 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I have always thought the Last Hero, Eldric, Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, and Neferion are all the same person. The myth (and person's name) has just been changed in the thousands of years of the retelling.

There is this from the World Book.

Forgive me if this idea is already understood and established by you all. I did not read through the whole thread before posting. 

Other!  So good to see you!   I'm on the fence with this identity crisis.  And I'm stuck with TLH being the last hero at the end of the age of heroes.  I think we need consensus about the Long Night and the various heroes.  I'm also stuck on the roles everyone played in ending the long night.  Who was the 1st LC of the Nights Watch?  Who held the dragon steel sword?  I'm not as sure the heroes are all 1 person as I am that the long night was a global event.   I keep wanting to throw maybe and probably in there!  But what can we really know?   Thanks for weighing in on this latest blight on my vision!  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I sort of agree but disagree at the same time. And I'm sure I won't be able to express my thoughts properly, so apologies in advance. 

I think there was "someone" who was instrumental in pushing Winter back. Or in pushing the WWs back... or, say, in bringing back summer and the light of day. Or all of the above combined. I also think this "someone" may have been more than one person. But I don't think there were numerous "someones". So, yeah, maybe all the ones you mention are, in truth, one person and the differences we see in each legend has to do w/ he culture were it originates. Another possibility imo is that there was really only one person, and this one person saved the day (pun intended) w/ help from others. And since the LN likely was a world-wide event, far-away (from Westeros) lands that were also affected by it created their own mythologies about the world being saved. And even w/o a "character" of their own, they create a legend about a saviour figure to explain events. 

Not sure I made much sense.

Or several someones?  1 guy had to find the cotf, 1 guy had to lead the Nights Watch, 1 guy had to find the Others, 2 guys had to sing the sacred song in the Rhoyne?   Your numerous someones could be exactly like Napolean or Alexander--although these people are credited with great world domination, they had many people behind them?   

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Curled Finger

Azor Ahai and Huzhor Amai. Do you think they are cousins?

How about Huzhor and Hugor?

Azor kills a wife forging a sword, Huzhor's Cymmeri wife forged iron for him(Rhoynar?) Hugor learned the secrets of iron forging from the god Smith. 

On Iron forging, get this, Iron requires a higher temperature than bronze to melt, but retains heat longer; harder to cool. Relevant to Nissa Nissa sacrifice perhaps?

But I doubt it since Noye the armorer doesn't know that Iron is bendable(or maybe he does)

Forget what I think--the names and legends are similar enough to be a single person and feat.  Eldric sounds very Dayne-ish, doesn't it?   Curious we get nothing except the name for that one.   I'm pretty sure there was an Eldric Stark, but I could be insane, too.  I get your point here and it's valuable.   There are similarities in name and material, probably deed.  But are they the same person or simple takes on the same legend in different regions?  

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Where does that come from?

However, Lann the Clever's descent from Garth Greenhand is a tale told in the Reach. In the westerlands, it is more oft said that Lann cozened Garth Greenhand himself by posing as one of his sons (Garth had so many that ofttimes he grew confused), thus making off with part of the inheritance that rightly belonged to Garth's true children.  TWOIAF The Reach Garth Greenhand.  

Lann is as bad as the Last Hero in my book! 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Curled Finger, and Faera, im still in limbo but now it's my weekend (mon/tue), so hopefully I'll get my head screwed in properly and hopefully will be able to reply coherently tomorrow.

Faera, irt this bit above... yeah, it's one of many things I go back and forth on all the time. While I think that perhaps it makes more sense to not have these two (Reeds and CotF) have interbred, I find the physical description of the Reeds to be... intriguing. We know that the crannogs were "vassals" to the MK, and eventually they swore fealty to the Starks. But even as "subjects" of the MK, they were FM, they were all FM back then. And what gets me every time is that, at some point, the phenotype for this group of FM changed quite a bit. Why? And the only answers that make sense are: interbreeding, magical mingling of bloodlines, and adapting to survive (which seems to be the least supported option, since we get zero on that sort of thing). 

I think the Pact holds many answers, and I for one can't wait to learn more about it.

 

 

It's crossed my mind that the original Crannogmen were COTF, not human at all.   Those blasted Starks overthrew them and introduced human DNA as well as all that magic they amassed.  That would make the Crannogmen very special.   Outside of Bloodraven, I don't see any Warg King magic in the Blackwoods and no legendary magic at all in the Dustins or Boltons.  Now we know Stark and Targ magic is waxing--but what of those other magical kings?   Seems odd there are no walking corpses in the Barrowlands...unless that is precisely what the Others are?   We don't know what the Red Kings' magic was, though I suspect it was skinchanging for no particular reason at all.   We do however, hear that Howland Reed was admitted to the Isle of Faces and studied with the Green Men.   That's pretty magical, certainly odd in it's rarity.  

Why doesn't Bran know his father's bannerman's oath of fealty?   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

33 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Eldric sounds very Dayne-ish, doesn't it?   Curious we get nothing except the name for that one.

That's because the name is the clue!

Eldric Shadowchaser is based on Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone. Elric is an albino with a famous sword called Stormbringer. Sounds very "last hero" archetype to me. 

He is also a sorcerer of sorts. Perhaps a hint that our last hero is as well?

[Anck Su Namun]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I have always thought the Last Hero, Eldric, Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, and Neferion are all the same person. The myth (and person's name) has just been changed in the thousands of years of the retelling.

There is this from the World Book.

Forgive me if this idea is already understood and established by you all. I did not read through the whole thread before posting. 

So this hero is everywhere?  All at once?  These are different people who each became the legends of his/her people.  

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's crossed my mind that the original Crannogmen were COTF, not human at all.   Those blasted Starks overthrew them and introduced human DNA as well as all that magic they amassed.  That would make the Crannogmen very special.   Outside of Bloodraven, I don't see any Warg King magic in the Blackwoods and no legendary magic at all in the Dustins or Boltons.  Now we know Stark and Targ magic is waxing--but what of those other magical kings?   Seems odd there are no walking corpses in the Barrowlands...unless that is precisely what the Others are?   We don't know what the Red Kings' magic was, though I suspect it was skinchanging for no particular reason at all.   We do however, hear that Howland Reed was admitted to the Isle of Faces and studied with the Green Men.   That's pretty magical, certainly odd in it's rarity.  

Yeah. The original crannogs as CotF is a very interesting idea. And I think all of this is connected to the magical gifts we see in FM descendants: skinchanging and greenseeing. I've entertained the idea that the Pact plays a part in this, as do some northern sigils. Say, if the skinchanging/greenseeing gift was bestowed on some FM families/lineages by the CotF, maybe we get clues as to which ones in the sigils/names. Like, Mormont, Umber, Tallhart, etc. Other families/lineages didn't get it though. Could the Boltons' penchant for flaying be a case of "skinchanger envy"?

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why doesn't Bran know his father's bannerman's oath of fealty?   

Indeed. And remember the Reeds' astonishment when Bran tells the, he has never heard anything about the tourney at Harrenhal. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said:

So this hero is everywhere?  All at once?  These are different people who each became the legends of his/her people.  

I'm not saying you are wrong, you could be right. George is certainly being purposefully ambiguous here. 

I believe it was originally one person but different groups of people spread the same tale which changes over thousands of years. It then becomes a regional myth as time goes by. Just like how this happened (and happens) in real life history. Think about Santa Claus and how different groups of people have Santa Claus but he is slightly different and goes by a different name for some.

George planted the similarities on purpose, IMO.

[aryagonnakill#2]

7 hours ago, Faera said:

Aha, where else? That darned World book. 

Lann the Clever was a bastard born to Florys the Fox in some tales or Rowan Gold-Tree in others. However, Lann the Clever's descent from Garth Greenhand is a tale told in the Reach. In the westerlands, it is more oft said that Lann cozened Garth Greenhand himself by posing as one of his sons (Garth had so many that ofttimes he grew confused), thus making off with part of the inheritance that rightly belonged to Garth's true children.

@Curled Finger

Ah, I only remembered the alternative given where he took it from the Casterlys, maybe because it made more sense to me.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

That's because the name is the clue!

Eldric Shadowchaser is based on Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone. Elric is an albino with a famous sword called Stormbringer. Sounds very "last hero" archetype to me. 

He is also a sorcerer of sorts. Perhaps a hint that our last hero is as well?

Really nice, Other!

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Anck Su Namun said:

So this hero is everywhere?  All at once?  These are different people who each became the legends of his/her people.  

Hi Anck and welcome to our little examination of this er problem.  I think I get what you are saying and please forgive me if I am mistaken and by all means correct where needed.   You believe all of the heroes of lore are different people.  I'd like to take that a step further and ask if you believe the Last Hero is one person.  

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

@Curled Finger

Ah, I only remembered the alternative given where he took it from the Casterlys, maybe because it made more sense to me.

You know when I did the quick search for Lann I laughed at how many different places mentions of important things are made without really fitting in the category.    It's all easy to miss.   Why would anyone look for Lann in the Reach?   But now that you see he's listed in many places and said to have lived to over 300 years of age, I have to ask: is Lann 1 or 2 or many clever men?   Remember he is considered a Hero of the Age of Heroes as well as an Andal.  Were Andals among the 1st Men or...?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm not saying you are wrong, you could be right. George is certainly being purposefully ambiguous here. 

I believe it was originally one person but different groups of people spread the same tale which changes over thousands of years. It then becomes a regional myth as time goes by. Just like how this happened (and happens) in real life history. Think about Santa Claus and how different groups of people have Santa Claus but he is slightly different and goes by a different name for some.

George planted the similarities on purpose, IMO.

Makes sense, but Santa is not the Man Who Saved the World.  Though I do get where you are going.   Santa is a boogie man in some countries.  I assumed Santa was a person of folklore, but he could be a religious guy, too.   I know more about the religions of Westeros than most real world practices and we all know I know very little.   Globally, Santa is a good guy.  And yes, his name changes from place to place though his modus operandi is pretty much the same: break into houses in the dead of winter and do something.   We could call Santa The Last Burglar in Westeros during the Long Night.   I'm glad you brought this up because as you can tell by the rambling, I am working it out!   Name, deed.  Yes...

Now then, either idea could be right and the more I read the replies the more I'm thinking it's both 1 and many.  My main question is is TLH 1 or many guys?   Did he both find the COTF and lead the NW to drive the Others back?   Of course we are never sure, but I don't think we are dealing with a very long time now.   I'm thinking TLN lasted about 12 years, with TLH finding the COTF in the 10th or 11th year and battling the Others in the 12th.    Not hundreds, just 2 or 3 years.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. The original crannogs as CotF is a very interesting idea. And I think all of this is connected to the magical gifts we see in FM descendants: skinchanging and greenseeing. I've entertained the idea that the Pact plays a part in this, as do some northern sigils. Say, if the skinchanging/greenseeing gift was bestowed on some FM families/lineages by the CotF, maybe we get clues as to which ones in the sigils/names. Like, Mormont, Umber, Tallhart, etc. Other families/lineages didn't get it though. Could the Boltons' penchant for flaying be a case of "skinchanger envy"?

Indeed. And remember the Reeds' astonishment when Bran tells the, he has never heard anything about the tourney at Harrenhal. 

I just thought that up special for you!   If nothing else the Crannogmen are closer to the green and I take that to mean the COTF.  You are laughing at the Boltons, but the last time I broke a topic drought it was about the Boltons actually being skinchangers!   Get me a ticket on that train, Sister!   

It is very strange that Ned did not tell his children his stories.   We hear a lot of "father taught" but no real personal history.   Did Cat tell them stories?  Yah, I knew this would be a rabbit hole for me.    Thanks ever so! 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Makes sense, but Santa is not the Man Who Saved the World.  Though I do get where you are going.   Santa is a boogie man in some countries.  I assumed Santa was a person of folklore, but he could be a religious guy, too.

I wasn't necessarily trying to compare Santa to the LH, just trying to give an example of how one mythical figure's tale gets changed as the story is told and retold over thousands of years across thousands of miles. I believe that's what George is doing with LH, AA, Eldric, etc.

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Now then, either idea could be right and the more I read the replies the more I'm thinking it's both 1 and many.  My main question is is TLH 1 or many guys? 

I'm obviously in the camp that it was one guy. 

AA and LH both have a fire (dragonsteel) sword. Look at the name Eldric Shadowchaser. Besides the nod to Elric Melnibone (LH archetype), his last name was Shadowchaser. Shadowchaser! It may as well be Otherchaser, right? And Hyrkoon is also based the Elric of Melnibone books, Elric has a cousin named Yyrkoon.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

34 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Did he both find the COTF and lead the NW to drive the Others back?

Yes, IMO. I believe the original NW was simply the dozen companions the LH had with him.