Why didn’t Ned have a sworn shield for Sansa or Arya?

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Odd, don't you think, that Joffrey's sworn shield just took the day off when Joff and Sansa went riding off on their own along the Trident.

Not so odd. It was a time of flowers in the hair and peaceful enough for a maiden to walk the Kings Road in her nameday suit.

Anywho, Something came up and Cersei decided that her and Sansa's tea party would have to wait. She told Joffrey to entertain Sansa. Sansa tied up her sworn sword and Joffrey told his dog to bugger off.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I   "Oh, I love riding," Sansa said.     Joffrey glanced back at Lady, who was following at their heels. "Your wolf is liable to frighten the horses, and my dog seems to frighten you. Let us leave them both behind and set off on our own, what do you say?"     Sansa hesitated. "If you like," she said uncertainly. "I suppose I could tie Lady up." She did not quite understand, though. "I didn't know you had a dog …"Joffrey laughed. "He's my mother's dog, in truth. She has set him to guard me, and so he does."/

Speaking about the original post and title question I'm sure that if some resourceful poster decided to they could find that Eddard had a Septa looking after his girls. Eddard may have even had some of his men keeping watch on his girls. BUT Eddard is not royalty he is merely a humble Lord, Warden of the North.

Edit: I felt the need to elaborate that when Sansa tied up her sworn sword I meant Sansa tired up the direwolf.

[Colonel Green]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:06 PM, Widow's Watch said:

Would a sworn shield have made any kind of a difference, though, with Cersei intent on having every northman killed? The only one who managed to escape is Jacks and we don't even know how he managed that.

It wouldn't have mattered, probably, in the assault on the Stark compound (though conceivably Arya's sworn shield might have escaped with her, which would indeed have changed a lot), but the girls having full-time bodyguards would in fact have affected quite a few scenarios in the books.  For instance, even if you assume that Sansa's was dismissed along with the Hound before she and Joffrey went on the riding expedition that ended with the Kingsroad incident, Arya's would have been there.  And Sansa having a sworn shield (or even guards, period) at the Tourney of the Hand would have avoided her crucial conversation with the Hound midway through AGOT.

And the above is the real reason why the girls don't have any protectors:  because GRRM's story for both girls requires Ned to let them wander around without much/any supervision at key moments.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Not so odd. It was a time of flowers in the hair and peaceful enough for a maiden to walk the Kings Road in her nameday suit.

Anywho, Something came up and Cersei decided that her and Sansa's tea party would have to wait. She told Joffrey to entertain Sansa. Sansa tied up her sworn sword and Joffrey told his dog to bugger off.

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I   "Oh, I love riding," Sansa said.     Joffrey glanced back at Lady, who was following at their heels. "Your wolf is liable to frighten the horses, and my dog seems to frighten you. Let us leave them both behind and set off on our own, what do you say?"     Sansa hesitated. "If you like," she said uncertainly. "I suppose I could tie Lady up." She did not quite understand, though. "I didn't know you had a dog …"Joffrey laughed. "He's my mother's dog, in truth. She has set him to guard me, and so he does."/

Hogwash on that maiden walking in her nameday suit nonsense. That was just some commoner pining for the old days. In reality:

Quote

Ser Rodrick protested. "My Lady, let me accompany you at least. The kingsroad can be perilous for a woman alone."

Also

Quote

You're not supposed to leave the column," Sansa reminded her. "Father said so."

We also see Ned and Robert -- two of the fiercest fighting men in the land, both armed and armored -- with a tail of guards when they leave the column. And virtually every time a highborn is outside the confines of their castle they have guards, except for this one time when literally the two most valuable children in the realm are allowed to just ride off alone together, completely defenseless. 

Joffrey does not have the authority to tell his dog to bugger off. His orders are to protect the prince at all times, and as your quote states, they come directly from the Queen. He should have lost his head for such a blatant dereliction of duty, but instead Cersei focused her wrath on the wolf that wasn't even there.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey does not have the authority to tell his dog to bugger off. His orders are to protect the prince at all times, and as your quote states, they come directly from the Queen. He should have lost his head for such a blatant dereliction of duty, but instead Cersei focused her wrath on the wolf that wasn't even there.

Plus the red-headed kid who can't keep up.

"He ran... not very fast".

And the Stark guards didn't do a very good job, since they got slaughtered by the Lannister guards after Ned got arrested.

[Angel Eyes]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:08 AM, Nevets said:

I think Septa Mordane was regarded as sufficient.  Actually, as far as I know, Joffrey and Myrcella are the only children to have a sworn shield.  I certainly don't recall anyone else having one.  And it's not as if there is any likelihood of danger.  When Ned did perceive the possibility of danger, he arranged for their return to Winterfell.  Unfortunately, events moved faster than he had anticipated.

The Hound served Cersei as a sworn shield before being transferred to Joffrey.

[Clegane'sPup]

22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Hogwash on that maiden walking in her nameday suit nonsense. That was just some commoner pining for the old days.

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey does not have the authority to tell his dog to bugger off.

Yes, Joff does have the authority to tell Joff to bugger off.  At this point in time Sandor answers to Cersei. Queen Cersei told Joff to entertain Sansa.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

25 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yes, Joff does have the authority to tell Joff to bugger off.

Well, I wish he had told himself to bugger off much earlier. It would have saved Sansa a lot of pain and anguish and us a lot of booooooring reading!  >>>

[John Suburbs]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 1:04 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Yes, Joff does have the authority to tell Joff to bugger off.  At this point in time Sandor answers to Cersei. Queen Cersei told Joff to entertain Sansa.

Honestly, you think that a maiden could walk alone along the kingsroad in her underwear and be perfectly safe? You don't think the road is teeming with traders loaded with money, goods and all other kinds of wealth, and that this attracts brigands and outlaws? Then why is Cassel telling Catelyn that the kingsroad is not safe for a woman alone? Is he just clueless?

Joffrey does not have the authority to countermand the queen's standing orders. The text shows that the Hound answers to Cersei, so only she could dismiss him. Cersei told Joff to entertain Sansa, but nowhere did she say to dismiss his sworn shield and ride off into the wild countryside alone and unprotected. This was her exact intention, of course, but she cannot be seen dismissing the Hound in front of everybody, because then she would not be able to blame others for what she planned to happen, or what eventually did happen.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Honestly, you think that a maiden could walk alone along the kingsroad in her underwear and be perfectly safe?

Part of the story is that while there is a Stark in WF there is an implied sense of accountability north of the Neck.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You don't think the road is teeming with traders loaded with money, goods and all other kinds of wealth, and that this attracts brigands and outlaws?

Sure.  People south of the Neck experience the wrath of brigands and outlaws. The Kings Road gets more dangerous after Cat snatches Tyrion and Tywin lets loose.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Then why is Cassel telling Catelyn that the kingsroad is not safe for a woman alone? Is he just clueless?

I would need to look at the chapter. I'm being nit picky but I'm thinking Cassel is talking about south of the Neck.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Joffrey does not have the authority to countermand the queen's standing orders. T

I can agree with that.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The text shows that the Hound answers to Cersei, so only she could dismiss him.

Yes, the text shows that Sandor answers to Cersei. Let's do some speculation and say Sandor went to Cersei and told her Joff and Sansa trotted of to spin some woo and Cersei said notta problem.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Cersei told Joff to entertain Sansa, but nowhere did she say to dismiss his sworn shield and ride off into the wild countryside alone and unprotected.

Again correct.

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This was her exact intention, of course, but she cannot be seen dismissing the Hound in front of everybody, because then she would not be able to blame others for what she planned to happen, or what eventually did happen.

I dunna follow this. Sansa and Joff went riding. They happened upon Arya and her friend. Joff tries to show off and gets served his just desserts. Problems ensue.

The Darry lands are north or south of the Neck? To me it doesn't matter because story wise no one is gonna mess with the King's entourage in a time of peace.

 

[Eli Cross]

Fat Tommard is perfect for the part.  The girls were only lord's children.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Part of the story is that while there is a Stark in WF there is an implied sense of accountability north of the Neck.

Sure.  People south of the Neck experience the wrath of brigands and outlaws. The Kings Road gets more dangerous after Cat snatches Tyrion and Tywin lets loose.

I would need to look at the chapter. I'm being nit picky but I'm thinking Cassel is talking about south of the Neck.

I can agree with that.

Yes, the text shows that Sandor answers to Cersei. Let's do some speculation and say Sandor went to Cersei and told her Joff and Sansa trotted of to spin some woo and Cersei said notta problem.

Again correct.

I dunna follow this. Sansa and Joff went riding. They happened upon Arya and her friend. Joff tries to show off and gets served his just desserts. Problems ensue.

The Darry lands are north or south of the Neck? To me it doesn't matter because story wise no one is gonna mess with the King's entourage in a time of peace.

 

If there was less danger on the KR north of the neck it's because there is less trade and far fewer people in general, not because the smallfolk had any great admiration for the Starks. When Ned and Co. travel to a nearby holdfast to investigate an NW desertion, he brings an armed contingent of 15 guardsmen. When Bran goes for his little ride on Dancer in the woods right around Winterfell, the bring Robb and Theon, both armed and armored, plus four guardsmen -- and even this is not enough to protect Bran in the Stark's own back yard. In virtually every case, save for some dire emergency, highborns are guarded when they travel overland, except in the one instance...

Sure, things heated up once the armies were on the move, but there is no reason to think the KR was perfectly safe before that. There is an enormous amount of wealth moving up and down the road, and wealth attracts crime, particularly back when there were no standing police forces and no way to track or identify people.

Cassel is talking about the KR in general, but yes, south of the Neck would be more dangerous for the reasons I listed above. And Joff and Sansa are south of the Neck when they take their little ride. The whole scene takes place at the Trident, and the chapter starts out with Sansa remembering the 15-day slog through the Neck.

Why would Cersei say this is not a problem, particularly after Joff returns all bloody from a wolf attack? Sandor's sole function is to make sure that Joffrey is protected at all times. But now, just because Joffrey told him to back off Sansa, he watched stupidly as the prince and the Hand's daughter ride off into the wide world, completely unprotected and unchaperoned. Even Ned and Robert have a tail when they go off riding. She should have been just as mad at Sandor for letting it happen as she was with the wolf that did the damage, and at the very least dismissed him from her service the way she did to Blount when he gave up Tommen to Tyrion's men. Instead, she calls for the death of the wolf that wasn't even involved, and Sandor gets off scot free. Why?

This isn't the 1950s, it's a medieval, feudal society where interaction between young betrothed boys and girls is strictly controlled. It would be a huge scandal if Joff and Sansa just slipped off to "pitch some woo" and it would be huger still if it turned out that Cersei OK'd the whole thing. At the very least, it would throw a huge kink into the betrothal, and quite possibly quash it altogether. And who would want that to happen I wonder?

I contend that Cersei meant for Joff and Sansa to be alone together. That way, she could confront them upon their return and accuse her of being wanton and lustful and therefore not dignified enough to be Joffrey's consort. If she plays it right, she may even have Joff spin a story about how Sansa seduced him into making the beast with two backs, and when they go to examine her, why she is freshly broken, having spent the afternoon racing after Joffrey who was riding his courser with "reckless abandon."

What better way to disentangle her precious son from a marriage that she does not approve of, while at the same time possibly ridding herself of a Hand whom she views as a political threat?

 

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I contend that Cersei meant for Joff and Sansa to be alone together. That way, she could confront them upon their return and accuse her of being wanton and lustful and therefore not dignified enough to be Joffrey's consort. If she plays it right, she may even have Joff spin a story about how Sansa seduced him into making the beast with two backs, and when they go to examine her, why she is freshly broken, having spent the afternoon racing after Joffrey who was riding his courser with "reckless abandon."

Okay. I can accept your contention.

Except none of that happened.

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Okay. I can accept your contention.

Except none of that happened.

Well, no. The plan was foiled when they encountered Arya and Mycah on the Trident and Joffrey ended up getting bitten. So Cersei ended up salvaging as much as she could from it.

I actually think there was even more going on here then simply putting Sansa in a compromising position, but this will do for the purposes of this thread.

[Angel Eyes]

9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, no. The plan was foiled when they encountered Arya and Mycah on the Trident and Joffrey ended up getting bitten. So Cersei ended up salvaging as much as she could from it.

I actually think there was even more going on here then simply putting Sansa in a compromising position, but this will do for the purposes of this thread.

So why would she want Sansa ruined? A Stark who likes Joffrey means another tool against Ned.

[John Suburbs]

36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So why would she want Sansa ruined? A Stark who likes Joffrey means another tool against Ned.

A broken betrothal due to Ned's daughter being labelled a slut would likely send Ned back to Winterfell. Rather than just have a tool to weaken him, she removes him from the board entirely.