Varys and Aerys

[The Sleeper]

33 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He takes pride in his work and thus working to ensure the line of Aerys continues. He could have fled KL during the sack and retired with wealth and comfort in essos, but he has continued to plot. 

I have always felt it was love of the game for Varys. Also, it could be the ego of a tortured and abused eunuch being stroked as well. Aerys seemed to have great respect for Varys' skills. It seems the only other people we have met who share that respect of Varys is Illyrio and Tyrion.

It wasn't just money, or love of the game. It was respect. 

That is my point. Even if it was just the money this would be some samurai-level commitment. 

I can get behind this kind of motivation.  You need some special kind of motivation and for Varys to be a special kind of character to do what he is doing, whatever that motivation might be. 

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The great council was the plot, and he can't really call a council to depose his dad if his dad is there. And he fought for his dad because he had to.  He did the deed that lead to the deaths of the heir to and the Lord Paramount and Warden of the North. 

Was it? As far as I am concerned we have one line from Rhaegar and what amounts to gossip and the word of Pycelle. And what was the purpose of the proposed council? For all we know Rhaegar was afraid for his father and wanted to garner support in fear Tywin after his resignation as hand. For all we know it was Tywin behind the tourney and Rhaegar was doing what his father was doing, trying to stop a potential conspiracy. Or he could indeed be gathering support to depose his father. In collaboration with Tywin. 

We don't know. I would be very careful about what Varys reports or doesn't. Notwithstanding the fact that he could very well undermine the Targaryen dynasty just by doing his job. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I know the decade between books can be stressful but there is no reason to make up new content for the books to satisfy an argument on an internet forum

Oh, the number of threads that I could use this on...

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I have always felt it was love of the game for Varys.

I think that's key to understanding Varys's character. He may actually have a sense of professional pride, and experience pleasure when a good plot comes to fruition. I think there’s a similar trait in Littlefinger and we know for a fact Tyrion loves it too. Cersei as well, and possibly Tywin. That doesn’t mean they don’t have other goals or motivations, but they’re all clearly enjoying themselves.

I also believe a lot of what he says to Ned in GOT. His loyalty really is to the Realm. I don’t think the fact that he is from the Free Cities necessarily makes this impossible. He may have a very clear idea of right and wrong, and believe in the concept of the “good” ruler. Aerys approached him to be Master of Whisperers, and he set about doing the best job for both his employer and the people.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

As far as I am concerned we have one line from Rhaegar and what amounts to gossip and the word of Pycelle. And what was the purpose of the proposed council? For all we know Rhaegar was afraid for his father and wanted to garner support in fear Tywin after his resignation as hand. For all we know it was Tywin behind the tourney and Rhaegar was doing what his father was doing, trying to stop a potential conspiracy. Or he could indeed be gathering support to depose his father. In collaboration with Tywin. 

We don't know.

We don't know, but I think it's been hinted at often enough that it's reasonable to assume that Rhaegar's aim was to remove his father from power. The real mystery is who the secret benefactor was. That's not to say that all those hints aren't massive misdirection, but I think that's unlikely.

[The Sleeper]

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

We don't know, but I think it's been hinted at often enough that it's reasonable to assume that Rhaegar's aim was to remove his father from power. The real mystery is who the secret benefactor was. That's not to say that all those hints aren't massive misdirection, but I think that's unlikely.

Hinted by whom and what? We have Rhaegar's single line and TWoIaF, which basically states that it is gossip and the word of Pycelle. It has some value in regards to how some of the contemporaries might have viewed the whole affair and what Aerys may have thought of it, but other than that it basically says nothing. Martin is saving the juicy bits for the main series. 

I am fairly confident there is a lot more in that whole affair, that had been deliberately left obscure. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Hinted by whom and what? We have Rhaegar's single line and TWoIaF

Sure, but the two combined point in a definite direction. Still, it's perfectly possible that we've been misled. The reason I, and I suspect others are convinced though, is that it fits in well with other things in the story, and theories that we are convinced by.

9 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

I am fairly confident there is a lot more in that whole affair

On that I'm sure we're all agreed. There was so much going on at Harrenhal, that I'm sure will be revealed as time goes on.

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Hinted by whom and what? We have Rhaegar's single line and TWoIaF, which basically states that it is gossip and the word of Pycelle. It has some value in regards to how some of the contemporaries might have viewed the whole affair and what Aerys may have thought of it, but other than that it basically says nothing. Martin is saving the juicy bits for the main series. 

I am fairly confident there is a lot more in that whole affair, that had been deliberately left obscure. 

Rhaegar's single line tells us that he intended to call a council and make changes after the Battle of the Trident, and that he had intended to call a council and make changes long ago. We might not know all the specifics of what those changes were intended to be, but we have reason enough to think that Rhaegar had intended in the past to restrict or strip his father's powers, and intended to go through with it in the future.

[The Sleeper]

16 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Rhaegar's single line tells us that he intended to call a council and make changes after the Battle of the Trident, and that he had intended to call a council and make changes long ago. We might not know all the specifics of what those changes were intended to be, but we have reason enough to think that Rhaegar had intended in the past to restrict or strip his father's powers, and intended to go through with it in the future.

Do we know that this council was supposed to take place at Harrenhal? What were the changes? Did he plan to consult with, bargain, threaten or plead with the great Lords, none of whom were present? Did he plan a military intervention and want to ask for troops? Did he plan a regency? An abdication? Or was he only trying to see how the great houses stood? Was he the one who organised the tourney? Or was it someone else? In the latter case was Rhaegar invited? Or did he attend despite of that? Or did he have a prophesy that the mother of the PtwP would be revealed there? Or was he oblivious and just thought if would be fun week?

The assumption may appear reasonable, but it remains an assumption and a vague one at that, not the ground to draw any conclusions from it.

ETA For instance, it is assumed that Lord When organised the tourney after his brother's visit. What if it was the opposite and Oswell Whent had heard about his brother organising a tourney and went to ask what it was all about?

[Bael's Bastard]

1 minute ago, The Sleeper said:

Do we know that this council was supposed to take place at Harrenhal? What were the changes? Did he plan to consult with, bargain, threaten or plead with the great Lords, none of whom were present? Did he plan a military intervention and want to ask for troops? Did he plan a regency? An abdication? Or was he only trying to see how the great houses stood? Was he the one who organised the tourney? Or was it someone else? In the latter case was Rhaegar invited? Or did he attend despite of that? Or did he have a prophesy that the mother of the PtwP would be revealed there? Or was he oblivious and just thought if would be fun week?

The assumption may appear reasonable, but it remains an assumption and a vague one at that, not the ground to draw any safe conclusions from it.

Like I said, there are a lot of specifics we don't know. But it is reasonable to assume that the intended past council Rhaegar speaks of either refers to the Harrenhal Tourney, or to a council the Harrenhal Tourney was intended to lay the groundwork for. We shouldn't assume that we have all the details or the full picture, but we have no reason to discount what we have been told as being inaccurate.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Oh, the number of threads that I could use this on...

I think that's key to understanding Varys's character. He may actually have a sense of professional pride, and experience pleasure when a good plot comes to fruition. I think there’s a similar trait in Littlefinger and we know for a fact Tyrion loves it too. Cersei as well, and possibly Tywin. That doesn’t mean they don’t have other goals or motivations, but they’re all clearly enjoying themselves.

I also believe a lot of what he says to Ned in GOT. His loyalty really is to the Realm. I don’t think the fact that he is from the Free Cities necessarily makes this impossible. He may have a very clear idea of right and wrong, and believe in the concept of the “good” ruler. Aerys approached him to be Master of Whisperers, and he set about doing the best job for both his employer and the people.

What is the "realm?" It is the kingdom, the dominion, the nation. But in an absolute monarchy, even one limited by certain rights and privileges reserved to the nobility and to the masses, sovereignty is not vested in the people, it is vested in the monarch. So, the realm is the king. The realm or land and the king are one. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

What is the "realm?" It is the kingdom, the dominion, the nation. But in an absolute monarchy, even one limited by certain rights and privileges reserved to the nobility and to the masses, sovereignty is not vested in the people, it is vested in the monarch. So, the realm is the king. The realm or land and the king are one. 

Maybe Varys disagrees with that interpretation? I think from what Varys says to Ned (if you believe him, like I do), his idea of the "realm" means the lands and the people as a whole, not just the Crown.

And, while you're right in the case of an absolute monarchy, "l'etat c'est moi" was a later attitude towards kingship, at least in our world. In the feudal period, while there were elements of it, the idea that the realm = the king was not really a hard and fast thing. Although granted, no-one would have considered the "people" as sovereign either of course.

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Maybe Varys disagrees with that interpretation? I think from what Varys says to Ned (if you believe him, like I do), his idea of the "realm" means the lands and the people as a whole, not just the Crown.

And, while you're right in the case of an absolute monarchy, "l'etat c'est moi" was a later attitude towards kingship, at least in our world. In the feudal period, while there were elements of it, the idea that the realm = the king was not really a hard and fast thing. Although granted, no-one would have considered the "people" as sovereign either of course.

Wouldn't such a notion have been extremely revolutionary for such times? Still, you could be right. This is a high fantasy, and we see some modern inventions, such as the spyglass, so it would be fine if the author is writing Varys to be a revolutionary fighting for the rights of man. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Wouldn't such a notion have been extremely revolutionary for such times? Still, you could be right. This is a high fantasy, and we see some modern inventions, such as the spyglass, so it would be fine if the author is writing Varys to be a revolutionary fighting for the rights of man. 

Fairly revolutionary but not unheard of. There were all manner of ways societies were organised in the middle ages. Free cities such as those in Italy, for example, were around. You also had all manner of checks on the power of the monarchy, such as Magna Carta and parliaments in Britain. These were usually representative of the nobility though. In feudal France, the push and pull was between the monarchy and the barons, and the barons often won.

For the record, I don't think Varys is a "revolutionary " in the political sense, but from what he says to Ned and Kevan (when personally I think he was being honest) he seems to have a belief in the need to protect the society as a whole. He's certainly clever enough to have his own ideas rather than just parrot the status quo.

I would also point out he's from the Free Cities, which don't have feudal or absolute monarchy.