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Alexis-something-Rose

Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

IMO it is foolishness to hold too tightly to any particular theory about the truth of (f)Aegon as yet, because basically pretty much all options are open and fairly reasonable. each of us may favour one over another, but IMO anyone who is totally convinced one way or another has just chosen belief over reason.

Now, where is the fun in that?

The advantage of not going out on a limb, is that you can never be proven wrong.  The disadvantage is that you can never be right either.

That said, Ashara is a not very compelling theory.  Mellario is much more compelling:

(1)  Mellario is known to be alive;

(2)  Mellario is significantly younger than Doran, her husband, which makes her about the right age for Lemore.

(3)  Mellario is known to be in Essos; supposedly separated from all her children, despite being strongly opposed to being separated from her children.

(4)  Mellario's son Quentyn was sent to be fostered by strangers at age 3 -- a perfect time for a baby swap.

(5) "Mellario" if you rearrange the letters (and don't quibble about the double "L") becomes "Lemoria"; which can be shortened to "Lemore" to make things less obvious.

(6) Mellario gave birth to a son who would be roughly the same age as Young Griff.

(7) A child of Mellario's would be a first cousin to Baby Aegon, which might help create a resemblance good enough to fool Jon Connington.

(8) Mellario is from Norvosi nobility.  The current Theocracy of Norvos was founded by Valyrian schismatics, who presumably make up its nobility.  Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.  This might conceal Valyrian traits.

(9) Doran's conduct towards Quentyn, supposedly his son by Mellario, is rather odd, as many have noted.

(10) Doran seems ready to support (f)Aegon's bid for the Iron Throne.

A child of Mellario would be a Martell-Valyrian mix (like Baby Aegon), and a first cousin of Baby Aegon.  

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Now, where is the fun in that?

The advantage of not going out on a limb, is that you can never be proven wrong.  The disadvantage is that you can never be right either. 

Haha, true. I'm happy to go out and support one theory over another, generally. But think its foolish to discount other theories just because you favour one.

But I'll play this game with you. It is fun after all, and I'm brain-burnt after getting a tender off.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

That said, Ashara is a not very compelling theory.  Mellario is much more compelling:

(1)  Mellario is known to be alive;

Ashara is 'known' to have leapt from the Palestone Tower into the Sea. But no body was ever found, nor has anyone been claimed to have been an eye-witness.
And in (f)Aegon she has a very good reason to go into hiding. Her 'fake death' would also parallel both Griff (supposedly drunk himself to death in exile) and Young Griff (head dashed against a wall by the Mountain. And the timing would approximately suit when a ship carrying baby (f)Aegon could come from Kings Landing.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(2)  Mellario is significantly younger than Doran, her husband, which makes her about the right age for Lemore.

Ashara would be in her late thirties, which makes her the right age for Tyrion's guess of "past 40". Especially considering Tyrion has past history of poor age guessing, the attractiveness of Lemore, and the difference between the lived of Septa Lemore and the noblewomen Tyrion is used to of that age.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(3)  Mellario is known to be in Essos; supposedly separated from all her children, despite being strongly opposed to being separated from her children.

Mellario is known to be in another specific part of Essos - where she came from. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(4)  Mellario's son Quentyn was sent to be fostered by strangers at age 3 -- a perfect time for a baby swap.

Which is relevant how? Quentyn is clearly nothing to do with any baby swap.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(5) "Mellario" if you rearrange the letters (and don't quibble about the double "L") becomes "Lemoria"; which can be shortened to "Lemore" to make things less obvious.

The one time GRRM played such a word game it was even simpler and far more obvious - Sarella-Alleras. Playing silly and incomplete letter games doesn't make any relevant argument.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(6) Mellario gave birth to a son who would be roughly the same age as Young Griff.

Which isn't really relevant, since there is no doubt who Quentyn is and Mellario didn't lose him for a number of years after that.
OTOH Ashara supposed lost a child who would be a similar age to (f)Aegon, slightly younger, and much closer to the time she would have taken on the role of (f)Aegon's carer.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(7) A child of Mellario's would be a first cousin to Baby Aegon, which might help create a resemblance good enough to fool Jon Connington.

Given that her other children hold very very different physical traits, no, thats not a reasonable argument.
In fact the appearance of her three children, generally short, thicker bodied, olive skinned and dark haired, shoot that one down in flames entirely.

Ashara OTOH would be accepting a child with known Targaryen traits, possibly the real deal or a child expressly chosen for his physical similarity.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(8) Mellario is from Norvosi nobility.  The current Theocracy of Norvos was founded by Valyrian schismatics, who presumably make up its nobility.  Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads and wear wigs.  This might conceal Valyrian traits.

Making things up that we don't have evidence of does not constitute evidence in favour of a theory. Shaving head and wig-wearing does not infer concealed Valyrian traits - especially not when such are universally favoured for attractiveness and connection to a 'superior' past. Even by schismatics.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(9) Doran's conduct towards Quentyn, supposedly his son by Mellario, is rather odd, as many have noted.

It isn't odd at all. Quentyn was intended to be his heir as Arriane was intended for Viserys. Once Viserys was off the table, Doran reversed places and Quentyn was aimed at Dany with Arriance available as heir instead.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

(10) Doran seems ready to support (f)Aegon's bid for the Iron Throne.

No, he sent Quentyn to try to marry Dany. And previous to that he had a deal to marry Arriane to Viserys. He's only exploring the (f)Aegon ship now that (f)Aegon has revealed himself, which strong suggests, given his previous efforts, that he didn't know about (f)Aegon at all. Which in turn argues that Lemore is not Mellario rather strongly.

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

A child of Mellario would be a Martell-Valyrian mix (like Baby Aegon), and a first cousin of Baby Aegon.  

No, a child of Mellario would be a Martell-Norvosi mix. And all three of them look almost the opposite of the Targaryen stereotype.

1) Ashara is almost exactly the right age for Lemore, especially once you note that Tyrion's estimate is just that, a guess, and he's not got good context or record for that guess, which is a famously difficult one.

2) Lemore's apparent attractiveness, despite her age and position, fit well with Ashara. Her hair fits within the descriptions given - brown vs dark brown and her golden skin fits with hot Dorne rather than cold Norvosi.

3) the eye thing - its odd that Lemore is almost the only character with no eye description (and GRRM writes in a reason by having Tyrion perving when he is describing her)

4) Ashara supposedly lost a child (or gave it up to her family to be raised as a not-bastard sister, Allyria) around about the time Aegon needed a carer.

5) Lemore swims frequently, unusually. Ashara grew up beside the sea and supposedly committed suicide by diving into the sea (but no body and no witnesses).

6) the Lady references and the fact that Lemore can argue with Griff as an equal conspirator.

7) Ashara, companion of Ellia and sister of Rhaegars closest friend and companion Arthur, recently having lost her own child (to death or family) is singularly the most appropriate person both to take Aegon into exile and to vouch for him on return.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If septa lemore is either elia or ashara than Aegon has to be a true Targaryan and not one of the lineage from yllerio otherwise there is no reason to work for him or feel so in fond of Aegon. But if he is a blackfyre than septa lemore has to be somebody else or nobody or family of Yllerio and Aegon. If Tyrion can identify septa Lemore right, than we know who Aegon is. I dont see another option!

Edited by Seaserpent

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

A dragon is a dragon whether black or red. Aegon is a Blackfyre decendent. Illyrio madd the dragon comments to Tyrion. 

Maybe it means that the Golden Company doesn't care that the dragon is black or red, they just want to go home. 

@corbon, Your point about Ashara aging is fair enough and maybe the haunting quality to her eyes has changed. But their color would not. We are given her hair color, her stretch marks, Tyrion stops short from giving us her cup size (thankfully), and yes, she is called handsome. I just think that her eyes are unremarkable. (I am glad this topic has helped take your mind from real life's obligations, btw.)

There are a lot of theories I personally don't buy to. I have very serious doubts that Aegon is a fake. 

But here's a question. We are supposed to believe that Septa Lemore is Westerosi, right? 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Maybe it means that the Golden Company doesn't care that the dragon is black or red, they just want to go home. 

@corbon, Your point about Ashara aging is fair enough and maybe the haunting quality to her eyes has changed. But their color would not. We are given her hair color, her stretch marks, Tyrion stops short from giving us her cup size (thankfully), and yes, she is called handsome. I just think that her eyes are unremarkable. (I am glad this topic has helped take your mind from real life's obligations, btw.)

Thats certainly one possibility. We get even unremarkable eye colours usually though. Lemore is a rarity, for a relatively significant character, of not getting an eye description. I think that in itself is significant. I also think thats one of the reasons GRRM had her swimming naked and Tyrion leching so hard.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There are a lot of theories I personally don't buy to. I have very serious doubts that Aegon is a fake. 

So do I. But it is quite plausible that he be a fake.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But here's a question. We are supposed to believe that Septa Lemore is Westerosi, right? 

I believe so, yes.
The Septa's robes are noted as marking her as westerosi, and she's not just wearing the robes, but teaching (f)Aegon the faith and actually seems to follow it herself (calling on the Seven as an instinctive response to the wailing of the stone men).
Although the religion of the Seven originated in Essos, it seems to have migrated with the Andals and doesn't seem to be practiced by Essosi any more.

She is also clearly high in the conspiracy, able to argue with Jon Connington about their plans, and apparently pre-dating his entry into their ranks. I can't see Jon accepting a non-Westerosi noble woman as ranking with him (I think she ranks above him myself, but I'm not sure he realises or accepts this) in the quest to put Rhaegar's son on the Iron throne.

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10 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

If septa lemore is either elia or ashara than Aegon has to be a true Targaryan and not one of the lineage from yllerio otherwise there is no reason to work for him or feel so in fond of Aegon. But if he is a blackfyre than septa lemore has to be somebody else or nobody or family of Yllerio and Aegon. If Tyrion can identify septa Lemore right, than we know who Aegon is. I dont see another option!

It is also possible that Illyrio and Varys have fooled the other conspirators right from the start. Just because they believe (f)Aegon to be Aegon, doesn't mean he is.
Well, Ellia would know, but she's not a reasonable option for Lemore. Elia's death was brutal and public and there were surely lots of witnesses that saw her body. Also, Elia's health issues practically rule her out from being the robust Lemore.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Thats certainly one possibility. We get even unremarkable eye colours usually though. Lemore is a rarity, for a relatively significant character, of not getting an eye description. I think that in itself is significant. I also think thats one of the reasons GRRM had her swimming naked and Tyrion leching so hard.

She swims naked, but the rest of the time, she is dressed. Tyrion even gives us a description of her septa robes. 

Septa Lemore emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. (Tyrion IV)

And when she changes from her septa robes into her merchant's daughter garb;

Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant.  (Tyrion VI, ADWD 22)

It's not he's wholly focused on her being naked. And he sat with her and chatted with her. Tyrion was on the Shy Maid for a long while, sailing down the Rhoyne almost all the way to Volantis. I agree that he was being a complete lech about Septa Lemore being naked, but I think the point of that was to expose the stretch marks. It either makes her a despoiled septa or a woman who had a child (or children) and joined the Faith afterward. The point, though, is that she doesn't seem to care who sees her stretch marks. She is not trying to hide them, or she would have been more discreet about when she went on her swims.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

So do I. But it is quite plausible that he be a fake.

Anything is possible. It's possible he is real and it's possible he is fake, but I have a bit of a problem with people dismissing every other speculation that he is the real deal. I believe there is a Blackfyre in the story, I just don't think it's the one everyone thinks it is.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I believe so, yes.
The Septa's robes are noted as marking her as westerosi, and she's not just wearing the robes, but teaching (f)Aegon the faith and actually seems to follow it herself (calling on the Seven as an instinctive response to the wailing of the stone men).
Although the religion of the Seven originated in Essos, it seems to have migrated with the Andals and doesn't seem to be practiced by Essosi any more.

Ok, so bear with me on this. I am posting from the subway (which is a really terrible habit of mine and I shouldn't be doing). 

Let's say for the sake of argument that Lemore is indeed Westerosi (which I don't think there's really any doubt on), and that she does have purple eyes that Tyrion doesn't even comment on. Logically, if he mentions her eye color, we know of two families for sure in Westeros that carry that eye color. The Daynes and the Targaryens. The people whose eye color has been described to be in the purple family are Targaryens and Daynes. There's only one Targaryen in the world left with purple eyes, and that's Dany. That would leave House Dayne. 

If Lemore has purple eyes, then there's no way Tyrion doesn't zero in on that, no? He's a perv who is good at working out puzzles. He had a hunch about Jon Connington right away and whatever Haldon told him, he gave him enough to puzzle out the rest for himself. 

I guess what I'm getting at, is that I think it's a bit stupid that GRRM decided not to reveal Lemore's identity to the readers if she is Ashara Dayne. Jon Connington is alive and we get Rhaegar's son possibly being alive which I think is big news. But Ashara who is something of a minor character and mentioned only ten times in the course of thousands of pages, her identity doesn't get revealed? Why is that?

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18 hours ago, corbon said:

Haha, true. I'm happy to go out and support one theory over another, generally. But think its foolish to discount other theories just because you favour one.

But I'll play this game with you. It is fun after all, and I'm brain-burnt after getting a tender off.

Good.  Let's play.

"But no body was ever found ..."

A fair point.  But speculating that the evidence we have for Ashara could be wrong (and I concede it could be wrong), does not change the fact that Mellario better fits the evidence we have.

"Ashara would be in her late thirties, which makes her the right age for Tyrion's guess of "past 40"."

Sure, Tyrion's guess could be wrong.  But, again, Mellario better fits the evidence we have.  Mellario's precise age is unknown, but, with a 24 year old daughter born 3 years into her marriage, she is almost certainly past 40.

"Mellario is known to be in another specific part of Essos - where she came from."

If you can speculate the evidence is wrong, so can I.  Location tends to be more temporary than death; and moreover, Doran could be mistaken or lying (to Arianne) about a situation half a world away.  If you can plausibly speculate that Ashara's corpse is not at the bottom of the sea, then I just as plausible, or perhaps even MORE plausibly, speculate that Mellario is not in Norvos right now, whatever Doran may have told Arianne.

"Quentyn is clearly nothing to do with any baby swap."

I disagree.  Quentyn has everything to do with a baby swap, in my humble opinion.

"The one time GRRM played such a word game it was even simpler and far more obvious - Sarella-Alleras. Playing silly and incomplete letter games doesn't make any relevant argument."

 I concede that an obvious clue is more convincing than a more-subtle clue.  It's too bad GRRM did not make his clues more obvious, or perhaps I could convince more people.  But GRRM is under no obligation to make such clues obvious.  

"... since there is no doubt who Quentyn is ..."
 
Not for you.  But for me, he is the real "Baby Aegon".  Doran sent his nephew to the Yronwoods in place of his son; and sent his son to Essos with his mom.  In my opinion, that is.
 
"...Ashara supposed lost a child who would be a similar age to (f)Aegon, slightly younger..."
 
A live boy who is apparently the right age and sex to be Young Griff, beats a dead daughter who is apparently the wrong age and sex to be Young Griff.  Once again, Mellario is a better fit.
 
"Given that her other children hold very very different physical traits, no, that's not a reasonable argument."
 
It is perfectly reasonable for children to sometimes take after the mother, and sometimes take after the father.  Young Griff (the real Quentyn Martell) takes after his mother, Mellario.  The two others take after the father in most ways, 
 
"Making things up that we don't have evidence of does not constitute evidence in favour of a theory."
 
Allow me to point out that you have not exactly nailed down the premise that Ashara outlived her alleged suicide.
 
But okay fine.  Ultimately, we do not really know what Mellario looks like.  And if you do not know what she looks like, you can hardly argue that she could not give birth to a son that looks like Young Griff.. 
 
"Shaving head and wig-wearing does not infer concealed Valyrian traits..."
 
Well, it's certainly one way to do it.  Take Egg, for instance.  And if the shaved head is too obvious a clue, the wig can conceal it.
 
" - especially not when such are universally favoured for attractiveness and connection to a 'superior' past. Even by schismatics."
 
From what I've seen, the honor typically conferred on girls with Valyrian traits, in Essos, is to kidnap them and sell them as slaves to brothels.
 
But perhaps that has nothing to do with the Norvosi beard-and-hair customs.  Maybe the Valyrian Schismatics merely object to vanity.  Religious practices don't necessarily feel the need to justify themselves with explanations as to the utilitarian purpose they serve.
 
My impression from what I have read, is that it was the Valyrian Schismatics who devised these weird hair-and-beard customs, and went to Norvos, somehow seized power, and proceeded to put their religious sect into practice.  Assuming that is correct, then your assumptions about what Valyrian Schismatics would or would not do with their hair must somehow have a flaw.
 
"He's only exploring the (f)Aegon ship now that (f)Aegon has revealed himself, which strong suggests, given his previous efforts, that he didn't know about (f)Aegon at all."
 
You say "only exploring".  He would want it to look that way, sure.  But, he may know more than he says. 
 
"Which in turn argues that Lemore is not Mellario rather strongly"
 
Only if you assume he always talks in such a way as to give away secret information to random observers.  

"No, a child of Mellario would be a Martell-Norvosi mix."

Like I said, the Norvos Theocracy was founded by Valyrian schismatics.  It is at least plausible, therefore, that the ruling class is mainly Valyrian, and that  Norvosi aristocrats (like Mellario) would have a strong Valyrian strain; just as the Targaryens of Westeros have a strong Valyrian strain.

"2) Lemore's apparent attractiveness, ..."

Mellario and Ashara were both attractive.  Call it a tie.

"3) the eye thing - its odd that Lemore is almost the only character with no eye description"

Mellario is another character with no eye description.  Call it a tie.

"4) Ashara supposedly lost a child (or gave it up to her family to be raised as a not-bastard sister, Allyria) around about the time Aegon needed a carer."

Are you suggesting that Ashara's connection is that Baby Aegon needed a wet nurse?  Aegon was already a year old or so, and one usually recruits commoners when wet-nursing needs to be done anyhow.

"5) Lemore swims frequently, unusually. Ashara grew up beside the sea ..."

Mellario grew up by the river ... curiously, the same river Lemore swims in.   Let's call it a tie on this point.

"6) the Lady references and the fact that Lemore can argue with Griff as an equal conspirator."

Mellario and Ashara are both aristoctracy.  Call it a tie.

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7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Maybe it means that the Golden Company doesn't care that the dragon is black or red, they just want to go home. 

@corbon, Your point about Ashara aging is fair enough and maybe the haunting quality to her eyes has changed. But their color would not. We are given her hair color, her stretch marks, Tyrion stops short from giving us her cup size (thankfully), and yes, she is called handsome. I just think that her eyes are unremarkable. (I am glad this topic has helped take your mind from real life's obligations, btw.)

There are a lot of theories I personally don't buy to. I have very serious doubts that Aegon is a fake. 

But here's a question. We are supposed to believe that Septa Lemore is Westerosi, right? 

Given what we know of the golden company and their founding mission (to place a descendent of Daemon Blackfire) on the Iron Throne and accompany with that,that the never break a contract, A Blackfyre descendent would do the trick.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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57 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

She swims naked, but the rest of the time, she is dressed. Tyrion even gives us a description of her septa robes. 

Septa Lemore emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. (Tyrion IV)

And when she changes from her septa robes into her merchant's daughter garb;

Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant.  (Tyrion VI, ADWD 22)

It's not he's wholly focused on her being naked. And he sat with her and chatted with her. Tyrion was on the Shy Maid for a long while, sailing down the Rhoyne almost all the way to Volantis. I agree that he was being a complete lech about Septa Lemore being naked, but I think the point of that was to expose the stretch marks. It either makes her a despoiled septa or a woman who had a child (or children) and joined the Faith afterward. The point, though, is that she doesn't seem to care who sees her stretch marks. She is not trying to hide them, or she would have been more discreet about when she went on her swims.

Sure. Of course she's not naked all the time. But the first time we meet her, we are in Tyrion's head. Its not the first time he's met her, as he's spent the night masturbating over her, so clearly she's been swimming naked in front of him at least once before. And his whole conversation and thought process over at that first meeting her is leching.
Its not that he's never seen her eyes, its that GRRM, in her introductory scene, gives himself a perfect excuse why Tyrion doesn't tell us about her eyes as we are introduced to this character.

I think exposing the stretch marks is also a reason she was naked.

I don't think the stretch marks are significant to her as something to hide - most women beyond a certain age have them.
They are only significant to us because we know she is significant first, and they add to the sum of our knowledge. She's a missing westerosi noblewomen, with brown hair, high level of attractiveness, in her late thirties or early forties, who has borne a child but doesn't mention or seem connected to any children other than one who is clearly not her own child (at least neither officially, nor in the way her and Aegon relate to each other), and is specifically and highly involved with a plot to put Rhaegar's son on the Iron throne.

57 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Ok, so bear with me on this. I am posting from the subway (which is a really terrible habit of mine and I shouldn't be doing). 

Let's say for the sake of argument that Lemore is indeed Westerosi (which I don't think there's really any doubt on), and that she does have purple eyes that Tyrion doesn't even comment on. Logically, if he mentions her eye color, we know of two families for sure in Westeros that carry that eye color. The Daynes and the Targaryens. The people whose eye color has been described to be in the purple family are Targaryens and Daynes. There's only one Targaryen in the world left with purple eyes, and that's Dany. That would leave House Dayne. 

If Lemore has purple eyes, then there's no way Tyrion doesn't zero in on that, no? He's a perv who is good at working out puzzles. He had a hunch about Jon Connington right away and whatever Haldon told him, he gave him enough to puzzle out the rest for himself. 

I think that you, like many people here, miss the point that purple eyes usually don't actually look purple. Unless you are looking for it, or people dress with colours or makeup to accentuate it, most purple eyes don't look terribly purple.
Elizabeth Taylor is the absolute poster girl for purple eyes in our world. If you look at any picture of her without accentuating makeup or accessories, and without knowing that it was Elizabeth Taylor you were looking at, you wouldn't call her eyes purple, you'd call them blue or blue-gray, depending on the light. Heck, of the first thirty or so google images of "Elizabeth Taylor eyes", nearly all of the ones that look 'real' (as opposed to soft focus photo-shoot specials) look like a blue-grey mix to me. Only a few look purple if you look really closely and are looking for it.
Targaryens get the purple eyes thing easily because they are famous for it and the hair also helps give it away. Ashara, would have it from dress/accessories and makeup deliberately accentuating the purple-ness. Lemore is the opposite of all that. I can easily see Lemore having purple eyes that pretty much just look blue most of the time.
So I can see Tyrion, who isn't pay close attention to her eyes, not really noticing or zeroing in on her 'purple' eyes. Especially since he doesn;t really care about her and thinks (correctly) he's figured out the big reveal with Aegon. 

And why would he think of Ashara as a conspirator anyway. To him, assuming he knows the name, she was a minor female courtier at another court that was sent away in disgrace long before critical events.
Its only when you put together her brother's close relationship with Rhaegar, her own relationship with Elia (likely much less well known), the timing of her 'suicide' (and know that its not because she lost Ned/Jon, which is what most suspect), that you realise what a perfect conspirator she fits to be, as Lemore.

57 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I guess what I'm getting at, is that I think it's a bit stupid that GRRM decided not to reveal Lemore's identity to the readers if she is Ashara Dayne. Jon Connington is alive and we get Rhaegar's son possibly being alive which I think is big news. But Ashara who is something of a minor character and mentioned only ten times in the course of thousands of pages, her identity doesn't get revealed? Why is that?

Whatever you think about stupid, its clear that GRRM hasn't chosen to reveal who she is, but that she is someone important.

I think he's keeping her hidden as Ashara precisely because Ashara is much more important, just we don;t know it yet. We have the clues though, even though she's been mentioned so few times.

I also wonder if a meeting of Ashara/Lemore and Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Queensguard, might not have significant ramifications...

 

 

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17 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Given what we know if the golden company and their founding mission(to place a descendent of Daemon Blackfire) on the Iron Throne and accompany with that,that the never break a contract, A Blackfyre descendent would do the trick.

Given what we've been told of their interest in going home and getting rewards in westeros, the fact that they did break a contract, and the fact that they are publicly following a Targaryen banner right now, it would seem that the right promises from a Targaryen would also do the trick.
These are not the original, they are their descendants. returning to rewards in westeros holds a great deal more allure than a lost Blackfyre name.

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4 hours ago, corbon said:

Given what we've been told of their interest in going home and getting rewards in westeros, the fact that they did break a contract, and the fact that they are publicly following a Targaryen banner right now, it would seem that the right promises from a Targaryen would also do the trick.
These are not the original, they are their descendants. returning to rewards in westeros holds a great deal more allure than a lost Blackfyre name.

Time will prove one of us right I suspect and GRRM has certainly been taking his time. As nice and happy it would be that Elia was alive, I do not believe so and as for young Griff, he is a tool with some related lineage. 

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@Alexis-something-Rose

I don't just think you're right, I sincerely hope you are. 

GRRM introduced 3 POVs in Dorne seemingly late in the story with Hotah, Oakheart, and Arrianne. Not to mention Quentyn, another Dornish POV in Essos. And the whole time I was kinda like "so what?" 

Then he turns Tyrion's chapters in Dance into a long, boring journey that really took a leap of faith in fAegon to believe really paid off. 

Secret marriage schemes, failed revolts, dead POV characters, and weird Shrouded Lord dreams left me with a lot more questions than answers, and quite honestly feeling blah by the end. 

If you're right about Elia...that is literally a different story. I would be extremely disappointed if I spent so much time reading about everything that happened in Dorne if it yields zero results, which is what it would be otherwise. 

Quentyn failed. Arrianne is (I think) set up to fail. Even if fAegon is Aegon, he still has to contend with Dany and dragons, which puts Dorne right where they don't want to be. 

I'm now imagining three legit Targ claimants to the Iron Throne in Jon, Dany and Aegon. Coincidentally, there are three dragons. 

So, kudos to you! 

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12 hours ago, corbon said:

I think that you, like many people here, miss the point that purple eyes usually don't actually look purple. Unless you are looking for it, or people dress with colours or makeup to accentuate it, most purple eyes don't look terribly purple.

That's kind of a sweeping statement. I did mention Tyrion going on about AGriff's eye color in different lights. Black in a light, purple in the dusk. Wouldn't he do the same with Lemore? 

You and I are circling the drain at this point (which happens when we're on different sides of an argument), so before I put this argument to rest on my end, I do have a question for you.

What does Ashara need to go in hiding for? She says that Aegon is not the only one who must needs hide. What has Ashara done that she needs to live in hiding for 17 years?

@dmfn, thank you.

It has been fun putting this together. I've been of the opinion that Aegon is exactly who they claim he is. I think he is the red herring for the real Blackfyre. So going from this, for me, it makes logical sense that there would be no one more invested in his future than his mother. I always found it interesting that three members of the same family met the exact same death at the hands of the same man. I do think there's something there.

Tywin told Tyrion that Elia did not need to die because alone, without her children, she was insignificant. I think it's a loaded statement.

In any case, we'll see what happens once WoW is released and I hope this is one mystery that will be solved once and for all.

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9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's kind of a sweeping statement. I did mention Tyrion going on about AGriff's eye color in different lights. Black in a light, purple in the dusk. Wouldn't he do the same with Lemore? 

No. YG is the mystery. Lemore doesn't seem important to Tyrion, he's quite clear about that. He explicitly states that she has secrets but he's not interested.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You and I are circling the drain at this point (which happens when we're on different sides of an argument), so before I put this argument to rest on my end, I do have a question for you.

What does Ashara need to go in hiding for? She says that Aegon is not the only one who must needs hide. What has Ashara done that she needs to live in hiding for 17 years?

Yeah, that often happens. Its about how much fun you get on the journey, and every now'n again you learn something new. 

Its not what she has done, its what she gives away. If people knew Ashara Dayne had gone into exile, they'd wonder why, ask questions, think about who she is connected to. Dead, she's just the not-so-interesting sister of the legendary Ser Arthur. Alive and in voluntary exile? Ser Arthur's sister? Elia's former handmaid? With a mysterious child? HMMMM...
JonCon is hiding too, for similar reasons, though IMO less pressing. And he didn;t even enter into (know about!) 'the conspiracy' for several years after it began.

9 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It has been fun putting this together. I've been of the opinion that Aegon is exactly who they claim he is. I think he is the red herring for the real Blackfyre.

Actually, so do I, though I don't rule out the Pisswater Prince, or Illyrio's son (or possibly the both together).

I don't think there's anything big to the Blackfyre stuff though. I think thats just interesting backstory for the Targaryens, that really grew out more of the Dunk and Egg books than ASoIaF. And I'm quite accepting I might be wrong on this too.

I suspect (f)Aegon is part of Dany's journey, either as her first major foil in Westeros or as an eventual ally, possibly even Consort. those two and Jon are the most likely three heads of the Dragon to me, though a lot of evidence points to Tyrion as a possibility.

6 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Maybe Ashara Dayne was at The Tower of Joy?

Maybe more happened at the Tower of Joy than we have been led to believe?

Maybe GRRM is just messing with our heads?

I suspect she was the key to supporting those at ToJ. I don't think she was there.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Actually, so do I, though I don't rule out the Pisswater Prince, or Illyrio's son (or possibly the both together).

OMG! Do we agree on something? I think we do! 

I do think he is one of the heads. One of the quotes that clicked with me after several rereads was contained in a Jon chapter all the way back in AGoT. 

In any case, I don't think the door should be closed on him being the real deal. If he is, he is. If he's not, then he's not. The world will go on with its crazy and all.

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On 9/11/2018 at 7:56 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's absolutely nothing that says that Young Griff doesn't know the real identity of Lemore. He knew Griff's true identity. Why wouldn't he know Lemore?

About this quote from the text, people on the boat all have their tasks. Haldon's task was to teach Young Griff everything a maester would teach a child of high birth and then some. Duck was brought in when the boy reached the age to learn how to fight and Septa Lemore taught him the doctrines of the Faith. 

But look at Lemore's behavior with Tyrion. After he is fished out, she is the one who saves him by giving him CPR, not Haldon Halfmaester. And she is the one who bathes him in vinegar, not Haldon. Her behavior is that of a mother.

Lemore's main task was to teach Young Griff religion, but I'm assuming she also mothered the boy and kissed his boo-boos away. Maybe they tasked her with overseeing Young Griff's religious education because she didn't want to leave the boy's side when the time came for him to embark on this journey.

Lemore being kind to Tyrion could be explained by Elia's visit to the Rock when Tyrion was a newborn, everyone thought he was a monster and he will die but Elia made cooing sounds + Tyrion himself has one black eye and black hair so maybe he is half Dornish ;)

I really love the idea of Elia being Lemore btw though I was leaning towards the idea that Lemore is Ashara and R+L=Young Griff (Lemore's eyes wouldn't be mentioned to keep mistery and JonCon wouldn't out her - in this scenario Ashara will be able to prove Aegon's parentage.) 

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On 9/14/2018 at 8:31 PM, Seaserpent said:

I like the theory but i have something to add and some big problem:

to add

- It also explains why Doran never went to war with the Lannisters and was very patient, till Aegon was an adult and could marry his daugther or at least is excepted as a king.

- The woman in the Red Keep fought for her child like only a mother fights, so if Aegon is alive than also his mother, than another mother and child died.

problem:

The children of Dearon the good were looking Dornish and he married a Dornish woman. So Agon could not have inherit the silver Targaryan hair from his mother, because black is dominate between Targaryans en Dornish.

Saying that: Daeron the good could have been a bastard himself like teh Daemon blackfyre supporters say, in that case we not know 100% shore that the black hair of Dornish are dominant and that Elia and Rheagar could have children with silver hair of both kind of hair!

Only Baelor had Dornish coloring but both he and Maekar had the Dornish built - with Aerys and Rhaegel taking after Daeron "the Good" we are told Aegon looked Targaryen while Rhaenys was more Martell 

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