Does Nettles prove the Valaryians weren’t exceptional?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Still don’t see the benefit of Daemon not acknowledging Nettles being his bastard.

Don't see the benefit in Lord Aerion not acknowledging Orys Baratheon, but that's how it is.

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Is there any way to narrow the available candidates for Aenys biological father?

No, but Alyssa's green eye could, perhaps, indicate that the singer father was, perhaps, a man with fair hair and green eyes from the city of Lannisport, going by the name of Hill... But that's far out there.

There are subtle hints in the text that point into the direction that he was not Aegon's son - not just the apparent sterility of the Conqueror (Sharra Arryn's offer can be seen as her knowing/suspecting the Conqueror would not father an heir of his body) but also things like that in TSotD:

Quote

So unlike King Aegon was he that a few even dared suggest that His Grace was not the boy’s true sire, that Aenys was some bastard born of one of Queen Rhaenys’s many handsome favorites, the son of a singer or a mummer or a mime.

(...)

Such gifts as this prince possessed lay elsewhere. Aenys was a fine singer himself, as it happened, with a strong sweet voice.

Perhaps his talents tell the truth? No other prince in the book is praised for his singing voice. And this is no coincidence on the author's part.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Visenya and Maegor would have been the first to impugn Aenys if there was any truth to it, so I rather doubt it. The rumors came from people who already saw their arrangements as salacious, I expect.

I'd agree - if we can truly confirm that everything went well with Maegor's conception as such. Visenya was forty when the boy was conceived, and her sudden announcement when Aegon seemed to be about to take new wife make this whole thing very odd. If the rumors about her dabbling at sorcery are true then Maegor could be a variation of the 'male clone of a female mother' concept George also used in 'Nightflyers'. I actually came up with that idea before reading the story, but now that's clear that George actually used that idea once it is very tempting to entertain the possibility that both Aenys and Maegor are just dialed-up, male versions of their mothers, and the Conqueror is just their uncle.

If Aegon knew what both Aenys and Maegor was - and considering that House Targaryen desperately needed an heir to ensure the continuation of the dynasty - then Maegor and Visenya couldn't have really said much about that while Aegon was still around. And afterwards, well, Aenys was the anointed king. It would have caused trouble going down that road.

[Varysblackfyre321]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 

Don't see the benefit in Lord Aerion not acknowledging Orys Baratheon, but that's how it is.

Perhaps Aeroin didn’t much care for Orys upon his death. Or feel him worthy of acknowledgement. We know Orys and Aegon got along when they were young-we know nothing of what Aeron personally thought of Orys.  In any case, however Orys clearly was not really harmed from the lack of formal acknowledgment from Aerion if he was indeed the man’s bastard. Nettles was. The perception of her being Daeron’s favored lover puts her more at risk at gaining Rhaeyns ire and more public scorn  than if she was seen as his bastard. 

[Ran]

1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The perception of her being Daeron’s favored lover puts her more at risk at gaining Rhaeyns ire and more public scorn  than if she was seen as his bastard. 

Yep.

[Lord Varys]

The idea is that Daemon wanted Nettles to join the family after their return - but the command to execute her basically killed him. At least that's my take on that. 

And since Rhaenyra didn't have Mysaria killed for sleeping with her consort we cannot really know what she would have done had she received this news in a less poisonous scenario.

[Jô Maltese]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Yep.

Catlyn Stark and Jon Snow... I tend to disagree with you guys.

EDIT: or Cersei and Robert's bastards! Lovers come and go, but bastards threaten your own children's future.

[Ran]

Bastard boys. Bastard girls are less of a concern.

[Jô Maltese]

A bastard girl who can ride a Dragon. And in these times a Princess and a Queen who could ride a dragon were fighting for the throne...

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

A bastard girl who can ride a Dragon. And in these times a Princess and a Queen who could ride a dragon were fighting for the throne...

A ugly scarred brown bastard who was raised a peasant and whose mother was a prostitute bastard girl who can ride a small dragon. Her background, looks, sex and skin, and possibly mixed heritage are going to be things that weigh heavily against her in just gaining influence in Westeros feudal system. Really, don’t see how she would be more threatening than any of the other dragon-seeds who’d be in the position to try for a dragon. Like when the offer went out for people to go try to tame a dragon it was expected that any Targyen bastard would/could try. Hell its quite a real possibility that a bastard of Daemon actually did try and fail at taming one of them. And, Rhaensys was chosen as the King’s successor. That was what the war basically boiled down to-whether or not his will was legal. Nettles isn’t like to actually draw a strong following should she actually try pressing any  “rights” she percieved she had. She wasn’t made legitimate, she wasn’t chosen as her father’s heir to anything, she would be merely awknowledged as one of his bastards-still a benefit for Nettles but not too much to the point she could pose any sort of threat to house Targyen.

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Catlyn Stark and Jon Snow... I tend to disagree with you guys.

EDIT: or Cersei and Robert's bastards! Lovers come and go, but bastards threaten your own children's future.

Too favored bastard boys can. Catelyn would not have seen Jon a possible threat to her line, if he wasn’t shown so much favor by Eddard. He could have sired dozens of bastards, so long as they weren’t treated like his true born children or raised at Winterfel it would be ok in her book. 

Cersi was guilty of adulatory and was faced with accusations of inchest-the bastards in her view could lead credence to the idea. And they were a living reminder of Robert to which she hates. 

 

[Jaak]

38 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 Nettles isn’t like to actually draw a strong following should she actually try pressing any  “rights” she percieved she had. She wasn’t made legitimate, she wasn’t chosen as her father’s heir to anything, she would be merely awknowledged as one of his bastards-still a benefit for Nettles but not too much to the point she could pose any sort of threat to house Targyen.

As of the time of issuing the order to catch the suspected traitors, the muster was:

Confirmed Green:

1. Aemond/Vhagar
2. Daemon/Tessarion
3. Hugh/Vermithor
4. Ulf/Silverwing

Suspected traitors:

1. Addam/Seasmoke
2. Nettles/Sheepstealer
3. Daemon/Caraxes

Trusted Black:

1. Rhaenyra/Syrax
2. Joffrey/Tyraxes

... that´s it! Even if Rhaenyra´s supporters on ground succeeded in depriving all three suspects of their dragons, this was only going to leave Rhaenyra and Joffrey outnumbered 4 to 2.

[Jô Maltese]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:21 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s pretty strongly implied the woman did not have Valaryian ancestry yet was able to tame a dragon. (...)

The point I was initially making (see my first post) was that the OP starts with a wrong statement. It is not strongly implied that Nettles does not have Valyrian (Targaryen) blood. On the contrary, she is usually acknowledged as a dragonseed in the History books (see my quotes in my first post).

 

On 11/23/2018 at 12:53 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Of course, it’s erroneous to definitively say yes or no-after all the woman was the daughter of a prostitute, it’s not impossible her father had some Valaryian blood and she merely took only after her mothe (sic). (...)

This is very much the opening statement of TPatQ : there are hidden dragonseeds everywhere on Dragonstone! As Ran said:

On 11/23/2018 at 5:02 PM, Ran said:

Dragonstone and its isles must be filled with people who have Targaryen blood. A "dragonseed" has kids, who have kids, who have kids... (...)

And my understanding of the term "dragonseed" is that it is not limited to the first generation, but encompasses those further down the line who have "one drop or two" of Targaryen blood.

 

On 11/23/2018 at 12:53 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

(...) But, it’s shown repeatedly that confirmed bastards of Targyens (sic) and desedents (sic) of bastards by Targyens (sic) could not tame sheephearder (sic). This to me implies, whatever her lineage it played little or no affect (sic) in actually taming the beast. (...)

No, it only implies that Sheepstealer was very wild and hard to tame. Targaryen blood is never enough as I stated above in my first post (possibly especially if you only have a few drops of it) and in this case only a patient, resourceful and gentle person had a chance to ride him/her: Nettles is very much described as such.

 

On 11/23/2018 at 12:53 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

(...) Though I do suspect Rhaenys was right in her assessment of the girl having no Valaryian blood. 

I don't remember this fact, but was Rhaenys (do you mean Rhaenyra?) assessing or claiming this? And Rhaenyra never believed for a second that Nettles did not have Targaryen blood, as recorded in TPatQ:

Quote

From King’s Landing came a raven bearing the queen’s message to Manfryd Mooton, Lord of Maidenpool: he was to deliver her the head of the bastard girl Nettles (...)

The point is, a Targaryen would never imply a non-Targ could ride a dragon without a very, very strong personal (if it was Rhaenyra: passionate love for Daemon?) and / or political (threat to her reigning line?) motive.

 

Finally, I have not read FaB yet, so I am not on the "Daemon being her father" bandwagon, still it seems to me that a Targaryen couple (i.e. Daemon + dragonseed Nettles) would be a much stronger threat to the throne than Daemon alone. As Jacaerys puts it in TPatQ:

Quote

Then up spoke the queen’s eldest son, Jacaerys. “We should bear those messages,” he said. “Dragons will win the lords over quicker than ravens.” (...) “Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims that we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.” 

 

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenyra actually rants a lot about Nettles not having the blood of the dragon and binding Sheepstealer (and Prince Daemon) to her will with sorcery. She has no evidence for that, as it happens, but she does say that.

Apparently should could suffer it that Daemon had an affair with his old flame Mysaria but couldn't bear it that a filthy girl of the lowest birth actually got in the pants of Daemon. And, in the end, I don't fault for that. But she should have taken Daemon's head for that humiliation, not the girl's. If they had an affair then Daemon just seduced another young girl.

But since I lean more to the father-son idea, here would be my chronology how this went:

1. Jacaerys Velaryon calls for dragonseeds. Nettles' mother (or some other people knowing stuff about her parentage) tells her she is the daughter of a prince and the girl finds her way to Dragonstone (a similar thing happened with Marilda and her boys - and the chances very low that Nettles would have tried to mount Sheepstealer if she hadn't known that she was a Targaryen descendant).

2. Nettles mounts the dragon and fights in the Gullet. At KL she meets Prince Daemon.

3. She only tells Daemon about her mother and that she believes/knows he is her father after they go to Maidenpool.

4. Daemon is touched and tries to make up for the time he lost. Perhaps the fact that both he and this lowborn girl can both ride dragons, never mind how they look or how far away they are socially changes his perspective. He gives her gifts and he prepares her to introduce her to the court as his daughter after they return to KL.

5. The letter arrives.

[Jô Maltese]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

(....) 

and the chances very low that Nettles would have tried to mount Sheepstealer if she hadn't known that she was a Targaryen descendant).

(...)

Perhaps the fact that both he and this lowborn girl can both ride dragons, never mind how they look or how far away they are socially changes his perspective.

This.

[Ran]

I don't know where the idea that the chances are low that Nettles would have tried without believing she was a dragonseed:

Quote

Not all those who came forward in answer to the prince’s call were seeds, nor even the sons or grandsons of seeds.

Ambition, foolhardy optimism, simply the wonder of it, all these things appear to have motivated people who had no knowledge of being descended from "dragonseeds". They tried anyways, in the hope that maybe they were without realizing it, or that perhaps having the blood of the Targaryens would not be necessary for them. If they could try it, I don't see why a peasant girl couldn't hope or dream the same.

[Lord Varys]

I know that, but do we really assume a girl begging girl from Driftmark could afford going to Dragonstone without any internal motivation convincing her that she may succeed? I have trouble imagining that. Men living at court interacting with the dragons - and Dragonstonians living with the wild dragons - may have convinced themselves that they could do it, too.

But Hull and Spicetown are not Dragonstone. They are not High Tide, either, for that matter.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Nettles was a dragonseed now she is the fire witch of the Burned Men . 

[Jaak]

There are two attested attempters who certainly had no close Targaryen bastard ancestry (both died). Ser Steffon Darklyn and Lord Gormon Massey. Their pedigrees would have been clear of any serious taint. They might have had bastard ancestors, sure. A bastard of Durrandon, Arryn, Gardener or Lannister might have been high enough to marry a Massey, or an even lesser house not too low for a Massey to marry. But Targaryens had not been sowing seeds for some time: Aegon I, Aenys, Aegon Uncrowned, Jaehaerys, Aemon, Baelon and Viserys had all been faithful husbands as far as generally believed (except by Truefyres, and Caution for Young Girls). Maegor was sowing, but had he believed in any live child, he would have jumped to acknowledge him or even her. Before Daemon, the last widely believed dragonseed had been Orys, of Aerion. And before Conquest, the Targaryens were minor lords - even a dragonseed openly acknowledged by Gaemon the Glorious would likely have been spurned by lords like Massey, though they would take his trueborn younger daughters.

[Jô Maltese]

@Ran I can't believe I disagree with you (and I hate it): do you really think that Nettles is not a dragonseed and therefore that Targaryen blood is not a necessary condition to ride a dragon?

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

(...) I don't see why a peasant girl couldn't hope or dream the same.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that Nettles low and despised birth was not the point. I agree! The point is, whatever her social condition was, she was sensible and never showed any foolhardy optimism. As for ambition, for me Nettles very much resembles Arya or Lyanna (or the little girl in the Ice Dragon) IMHO, a fierce girl who does not accept her fate and misery and fights her way up to where she thinks she belongs. She initially fights for justice and recognition, but when she met Daemon, she realised that love was what she needed the most.

[Ran]

21 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

@Ran I can't believe I disagree with you (and I hate it): do you really think that Nettles is not a dragonseed and therefore that Targaryen blood is not a necessary condition to ride a dragon?

I believe she is, as many thousands may be on Dragonstone and its isles, the result of more than a century of Targaryen men "spreading the seed", so to speak. As I've said before, you just need the "right drop" of the blood, so it can show up in a person even half a dozen generations removed from a Targaryen.

But I don't believe she knew she was a Targaryen's immediate bastard, and I'm not sure she was even certain she was more distantly related. 

I'm not sure she could be described as approaching things in a foolhardy way. She had the most careful and methodical approach of anyone. If Sheepstealer refused her offerings, or attacked her, or flew away as soon as he finished eating, and never started warming to her, I doubt she'd have tried to get on his back. The approach she used, building familiarity, allowed her to test the limits. Doubtless the final step of mounting the dragon's back was risky in and of itself, but by the time Sheepstealer had let her get that close, she must have had more confidence.