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Gerold the Great

Wyman Manderly warships

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On 1/5/2019 at 3:47 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

That’s a much longer and thus more dangerous voyage though.

 

eta; potentially, depending where you start

OMG, how can be much longer if north is isolated from rest of the world (because it is northernmost part of known world). 

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On 1/5/2019 at 5:09 PM, Loose Bolt said:

Other kingdoms had navies. For instance Vale has navy at Gulltown and it was also protected by Royal and Velaryon navies. Those navies also protected Stormland. Reach has major navies in Arbor and Old Town and also many of their houses had their own warships. Westland had major Lannister and Farman navies and also some minor houses had warships. So without their own warships the North is much easier prey than other kingdoms.

1.Westerlands not westlands.

2.Pirrates rarely attack north, everybody knows that. 

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14 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Would those ships of one northern house been enough to stop pirate lords like Salladhor Saan? When his fleet still included 29 ships.

For instance navy of house Mallister had only half dozen longboats and couple real warships and that house is almost certainly richer than any northern house that still worships Old Gods . Or at least they have more liquid assets than any real northern house. Manderlys are still richer but they are exception. So I am almost certain that any northern fleet that does not belong to house Manderly is very weak.

OMG, house Mallister are riverlords, Salladhor Saan's ships have been destroyed by storm while they were in the northern seas. So we can conclude that that is not very good sea to travel on. 

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2 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

OMG, house Mallister are riverlords, Salladhor Saan's ships have been destroyed by storm while they were in the northern seas. So we can conclude that that is not very good sea to travel on. 

I agree that Mallisters are not northmen, but they have a navy in the books and we know how many and what type those ships are. So estimating size of any northern navy that does not belong to Manderlys is rather hard, bc they are not mentioned in the books. Secondly SS is not only pirate lord but there are also many others. 

Beside thanks to Dany prices and demand of new slaves in "free cities" are rising, so there could be potential raiders also from Tyrosh, Myr, Volantis and Lys. There is also a possibility that 3 sisters start again their traditions as pirates, slavers and raiders.

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7 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I agree that Mallisters are not northmen, but they have a navy in the books and we know how many and what type those ships are. So estimating size of any northern navy that does not belong to Manderlys is rather hard, bc they are not mentioned in the books. Secondly SS is not only pirate lord but there are also many others. 

Beside thanks to Dany prices and demand of new slaves in "free cities" are rising, so there could be potential raiders also from Tyrosh, Myr, Volantis and Lys. There is also a possibility that 3 sisters start again their traditions as pirates, slavers and raiders

It is obvius that you don't understand that world (you overastimate and exaggerate). I am annoyed by your statements and I will not waste words with you any more.

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2 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

OMG, how can be much longer if north is isolated from rest of the world (because it is northernmost part of known world). 

You really need to calm down when people disagree with you. It makes discussions rather tiresome.

It's a longer journey, as I said depending on the point of origin, because you have to sail to the Western side of Westerns which is not an insignificant distance. If we are talking pirates from the Narrow Sea, The North, Gulltown and Kings Landing offer much closer targets

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2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

You really need to calm down when people disagree with you. It makes discussions rather tiresome.

It's a longer journey, as I said depending on the point of origin, because you have to sail to the Western side of Westerns which is not an insignificant distance. If we are talking pirates from the Narrow Sea, The North, Gulltown and Kings Landing offer much closer targets

I understand that I am sometimes too agressive but it is also tiring for me when I look to some of this anwers which I just know that they are wrong when compared with wiki of ice and fire

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On 1/4/2019 at 11:00 PM, Gerold the Great said:

I really doubt that they are building ships for Jon Snow. 

The ships were already planned and built, so definitely not for Jon Yeah, but maybe he could use them. But don't you think that Manderling wants Rickon for a reason, i think to install as a Northern king,. So the ships that are an Umber and Manderling effort has to now to be used for this goal, but i really dont have a clue in which way, maybe bring in the ex-Northern sellsword company from Essos. (company of the Rose)? But he wont give the ships to anything other than Rickon if he found him. Maybe an alliance between Rickon and Shireen can convince him in the future to give Stannis support.

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24 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

The ships were already planned and built, so definitely not for Jon Yeah, but maybe he could use them. But don't you think that Manderling wants Rickon for a reason, i think to install as a Northern king,. So the ships that are an Umber and Manderling effort has to now to be used for this goal, but i really dont have a clue in which way, maybe bring in the ex-Northern sellsword company from Essos. (company of the Rose)? But he wont give the ships to anything other than Rickon if he found him. Maybe an alliance between Rickon and Shireen can convince him in the future to give Stannis support.

Very interesting , I never thought of such alliance , hm, hm , very interesting. Unfortunately as I am supporter of house Lannister I pray such pact will not take place. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 4:06 PM, Gerold the Great said:

When Davos visited White Harbor he noticed 23 war galleys and later Wyman claims to have as many more hidden up in White Knife. 

What is he going to do with those ships? 

I know they are for war but can he actually battle Redwyne fleet with hope of success? 

No the galleys canna defeat the Redwyne fleet. The galleys in my opinion were not built for that.

If I remember correctly the Iron Throne ships where in Stannis' command. Dragonstone sits in the way of Kings Landing.  While Stannis had command of the fleet. Any ship trying to get to Kings Landing first had to get past Stannis and the IT fleet.

There has been a battle (remember the chain) where the IT ships were burning due to wild fire. Remember Stannis lost as in --- the ships burned.

Cersei had some boat wights build new ships. Those ships left with the Waters guy. Rumor is he set himself up as a pirate king.

Kings Landing and the Iron Throne have no ships.

Yada yada. Vic took part of the Iron Born fleet to seek the dragon Queen. Euron has another part of the Ironborn fleet harrying the coast and islands round Oldtown. Redwyne fleet and Loras are trying to get the left overs of Dragonstone to kowtow. Another up in the air situation.

Confused enough?

As has been mentioned there are different types of ships --- barges, galleys with the ambiguous insinuation of being dromons; long ships, cog's and swan ships to name a few.

Manderly tells Davos that "his crews are river-men or fisher folk." Davos asks:

A Dance with Dragons - Davos IV     Why would you need a smuggler? You have ships."   "Ships," Lord Wyman agreed, "but my crews are rivermen, or fisherfolk who have never sailed beyond the Bite. For this I must have a man who's sailed in darker waters and knows how to slip past dangers, unseen and unmolested."/

Why does Manderly have ships that his people seem unable to man or command as mention above?

If I go back to a previous chapter when Davos first set foot in White Harbor this is part of what Davos sees.

A Dance with Dragons - Davos II    When he reached the top, he turned to look behind him. From here he could see down into the harbors. Both of them. Behind the jetty wall, the inner harbor was crowded with war galleys. Davos counted twenty-three. Lord Wyman was a fat man, but not an idle one, it seemed./

Then there is the chit chat betwixt Manderly and Davos. Notice the "more than a year" as in when Rodrick told Umber and Manderly to work together. Time moves slowly in martin's tale.

Dance with Dragons - Davos IV    "I have been building warships for more than a year. Some you saw, but there are as many more hidden up the White Knife. Even with the losses I have suffered, I still command more heavy horse than any other lord north of the Neck. My walls are strong, and my vaults are full of silver. Oldcastle and Widow's Watch will take their lead from me. My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow's Watch and Ramsgate to the Sheepshead Hills and the headwaters of the Broken Branch. All this I pledge to do if you will meet my price."/

I would suggest/speculate that Davos saw what he saw and that Manderly may be exaggerating.  AND the 23 galleys are defense and offense.

Why would I say that?

Stannis had the Iron Throne fleet at Dragonstone. Sea invaders had to get past that to attack Kings Landing.

Perhaps the rational behind Manderly and Umber building ships is sea invaders need to get past the Three Sisters with their tricks to get to White Harbor and into the White Knife before getting to WF.

BTW did you think you would would get bigger and better answers by placing the post in two forums?

 

 

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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On 1/7/2019 at 11:39 PM, Gerold the Great said:

Very interesting , I never thought of such alliance , hm, hm , very interesting. Unfortunately as I am supporter of house Lannister I pray such pact will not take place. 

Lannister is a good house, but cersei and tyrion are mentally kinda nuts, but as a team they are quit strong. People still hate them of crimes they didnt commit. I am also fan of their house, i mean planning the red wedding was not cool, but tywinns explaination was quit good. The starks were really on their back an jon and stannis too. Offcourse the incest was not good but it allready happened and tywin cersei jamie and tyrion were just defending their house.

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I know they are for war but can he actually battle Redwyne fleet with hope of success? 

In addition to a mint, Lord Manderly also proposed to build Robb a warfleet. "We have had no strength at sea for hundreds of years, since Brandon the Burner put the torch to his father's ships. Grant me the gold and within the year I will float you sufficient galleys to take Dragonstone and King's Landing both."

Bran's interest pricked up at talk of warships. No one asked him, but he thought Lord Wyman's notion a splendid one. In his mind's eye he could see them already. He wondered if a cripple had ever commanded a warship. But Ser Rodrik promised only to send the proposal on to Robb for his consideration, while Maester Luwin scratched at the parchment.

 

"Certain." Summer had wandered far afield today, and would not be back till dawn. Maybe Jojen dreams green, but he can't tell a wolf from a direwolf. He wondered why they all listened to Jojen so much. He was not a prince like Bran, nor big and strong like Hodor, nor as good a hunter as Meera, yet somehow it was always Jojen telling them what to do. "We should steal horses like Meera wants," Bran said, "and ride to the Umbers up at Last Hearth." He thought a moment. "Or we could steal a boat and sail down the White Knife to White Harbor town. That fat Lord Manderly rules there, he was friendly at the harvest feast. He wanted to build ships. Maybe he built some, and we could sail to Riverrun and bring Robb home with all his army. Then it wouldn't matter who knew I was alive. Robb wouldn't let anyone hurt us."

 

So yeah, who knows why Manderly wants to build ships. But Bran seems to be invested. :dunno: 

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9 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Lannister is a good house, but cersei and tyrion are mentally kinda nuts, but as a team they are quit strong. People still hate them of crimes they didnt commit. I am also fan of their house, i mean planning the red wedding was not cool, but tywinns explaination was quit good. The starks were really on their back an jon and stannis too. Offcourse the incest was not good but it allready happened and tywin cersei jamie and tyrion were just defending their house.

I agree with everything you have said. Especially with the last sentence. 

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8 hours ago, Gerold the Great said:

I agree with everything you have said. Especially with the last sentence. 

Yes when people move into joffreys mind its simple; he dont know he is a bastard and your uncles fighting with eddard around your throne. I would have done the same thing, only using eddard as a hostage is better.

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56 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes when people move into joffreys mind its simple; he dont know he is a bastard and your uncles fighting with eddard around your throne. I would have done the same thing, only using eddard as a hostage is better.

Yes , his execution was not wise but now it doesn't matter. 

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There is still strength in the North, and I expect we will see additional forces from Skagos pretty soon.  Thrown in the mercenary army that Justin Massey is building and galleys will definitely be needed to take KL.   But I see a huge conflict in the form of Aurane Waters and his fleet (including some medieval aircraft carrier-sized galleys), whom I expect will throw in his lot with Aegon, Connington and the Golden Company.  At the end of the day, Manderly's fleet need only really defend White Harbor and keep supply lines to the North open.

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On 1/14/2019 at 5:21 PM, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

There is still strength in the North, and I expect we will see additional forces from Skagos pretty soon.  Thrown in the mercenary army that Justin Massey is building and galleys will definitely be needed to take KL.   But I see a huge conflict in the form of Aurane Waters and his fleet (including some medieval aircraft carrier-sized galleys), whom I expect will throw in his lot with Aegon, Connington and the Golden Company.  At the end of the day, Manderly's fleet need only really defend White Harbor and keep supply lines to the North open.

True, but i dont see any reason why the north would be against Aegon VI. But if you've red FaB and you think of a parallel with Cregan Stark, there came also a big army of old man down south to die in battle. Also in this case winter is there and because of the war of the five kings, there are many widows in the Riverlands to marry eventually. 

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