Tallhart and Glover Bowmen to man Moat Cailin

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can you not see the obvious difference between the castles you mentioned and the ruins of Moat Cailin? 

Lord Stark has a 100 extra soldiers should he

• station them in a ruin that has not been attacked in many, many centuries
• station them on lands on the Western coast to help stop his people moving inland due to Ironborn ravaging
• station them on lands near the new gift to help combat wildling raiding

 

There are better uses for such a surplus than a vanity garrison at Moat Cailin.

 

I accept that Moat Cailin cannot support a prominent settlement such as a lordly house’s home castle. I don’t however agree that it is not strategically important to have a manned border post at the largest (in fact ONLY) land based route that connects your domain to the rest of westeros. Even if it is a score of men and a few fast horses to send a message to the nearest keep with a Ravenry.

Even if you have to supply and feed them from White Harbor or Barrowton.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Free Northman Reborn

What you always remind to people works perfectly in this case; Distances are vast in the North.

If I recall, it takes King’s party a fortnight or more to get to the Riverlands from the neck, unhindered by Crannogmen. Think what if this was an army; Crannogmen would have spotted them, sent word to the closest lords who have ravenries and swift horses while harassing the enemy army day and night, buying more time.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If I recall, it takes King’s party a fortnight or more to get to the Riverlands from the neck, unhindered by Crannogmen.

 

True, but they were hindered by a giant wheelhouse with between thirty and sixty yards/meters of draft horses in front of it, depending on if they were harnessed in twos or fours. I have often wondered how that monstrosity maneuvers even the lightest turns and corners.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Free Northman Reborn

What you always remind to people works perfectly in this case; Distances are vast in the North.

If I recall, it takes King’s party a fortnight or more to get to the Riverlands from the neck, unhindered by Crannogmen. Think what if this was an army; Crannogmen would have spotted them, sent word to the closest lords who have ravenries and swift horses while harassing the enemy army day and night, buying more time.

Yeah, thought of that. Still. You have one road coming into your giant domain and you don’t even bother having anyone monitor who comes in and out through that point?

Should have a boom or something that visitors have to stop at and declare their intention, at the very least.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

35 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, thought of that. Still. You have one road coming into your giant domain and you don’t even bother having anyone monitor who comes in and out through that point?

 

I thought that's what the Crannogmen are for? I always assumed that between the terrain and the ceaseless harassment the north always felt that there was time to assemble and counter any major force coming their way, as long as they hear about it from the Crannogmen.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

I thought that's what the Crannogmen are for? I always assumed that between the terrain and the ceaseless harassment the north always felt that there was time to assemble and counter any major force coming their way, as long as they hear about it from the Crannogmen.

Sure. I’m thinking more along the lines of border control for non-armies, as no army is likely to reach Moat Cailin unannounced. I’d imagine even traders and other travelers would need to declare themselves to pass through the Bloody Gate, Golden Tooth, Prince’s Pass or Boneway.

But in the North no one even bothers monitoring who passes.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Sure. I’m thinking more along the lines of border control for non-armies, as no army is likely to reach Moat Cailin unannounced. I’d imagine even traders and other travelers would need to declare themselves to pass through the Bloody Gate, Golden Tooth, Prince’s Pass or Boneway.

But in the North no one even bothers monitoring who passes.

 

How much trade actually goes through there? Judging by the wealth of White Harbor, I'd say not much. The short trip to bypass the Neck by sea takes much time and hazard off of your journey. Add to that the fact that there is no relief station, i.e. castle, town, what-have-you, at either end of the nasty journey and I can't see why anyone would want to travel through there without good cause.

In fact, it just occurred to me that Robert must have really disliked Manderly for he and his court to skip sailing to WH and feast while his wagon train mushed along to catch up at that point in the royal progress (both ways it seems).

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I accept that Moat Cailin cannot support a prominent settlement such as a lordly house’s home castle. I don’t however agree that it is not strategically important to have a manned border post at the largest (in fact ONLY) land based route that connects your domain to the rest of westeros. Even if it is a score of men and a few fast horses to send a message to the nearest keep with a Ravenry.

Even if you have to supply and feed them from White Harbor or Barrowton.

When was the last time an invading army marched south and reached Moat Cailin?

 

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yeah, thought of that. Still. You have one road coming into your giant domain and you don’t even bother having anyone monitor who comes in and out through that point?

Should have a boom or something that visitors have to stop at and declare their intention, at the very least.

To what end? 

Give examples of the type of people travelling 300 miles up the causeway and the reasons the Northern border control will reject their entrance. 

Who are these people trying to sneak into the North for nefarious reasons but too dumb to lie to a Northern guard about it?  What happens to the Watch recruits? Will they be denied entry? 

The North literally has Wildlings and Ironborn terrorising their borders and rather than deal with that you'd rather try to police the one border that has not been threatened in many centuries. 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

On 2/20/2019 at 3:55 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

As for using masterly houses to keep it a secret or whatever is just nonsense. He ordered Manderly, a lord, to strengthen his defense as well.

Yes, his defences. He can't exactly ask Tallhart or Glover to strengthen White Harbor's defences and not expect Manderly to realize.

If you don't think Ned wanted to keep this a secret why did he ask Cat to deal with it when she was weeks, maybe months, from reaching the North. Why not send a raven. 

On 2/20/2019 at 3:55 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

 

And even if the Manderlies and all the lords of the North were loyal, trade ships would spread the word that WH is getting strengthened. 

The Manderly's have managed to build a Navy in secret, strengthening and repairing his defenses is far less noteworthy.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 2/21/2019 at 5:18 PM, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

True, but they were hindered by a giant wheelhouse with between thirty and sixty yards/meters of draft horses in front of it, depending on if they were harnessed in twos or fours. I have often wondered how that monstrosity maneuvers even the lightest turns and corners.

I’ve thought about that as well, but  if I recall, the party is either all ahorse or using vehicles, an army with their wagons, carts, wayned and more importantly, men on foot would travel slower, right? It may also spend less fewer hours travelling as well; men on foot would tire quicker, gathering thousands of men and their stuff and ordering them in a marching line would take more day time.

 

On 2/21/2019 at 7:08 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, his defences. He can't exactly ask Tallhart or Glover to strengthen White Harbor's defences and not expect Manderly to realize.

If you don't think Ned wanted to keep this a secret why did he ask Cat to deal with it when she was weeks, maybe months, from reaching the North. Why not send a raven. 

And yet Cat apparently Ravens Manderly that she’ll be there. But I should’ve been clearer perhaps, he doesn’t seem to care about keeping it a secret from his own lords as some here have suggested and once Manderly strengthens his defenses for all the neigbouring lords and merchant ships then it’s no longer a secret anyway, so he only cares about, can only care about that it’s kept a secret until the order reaches Manderly.

There, is it better now?

On 2/21/2019 at 7:08 PM, Bernie Mac said:

The Manderly's have managed to build a Navy in secret, 

 

A part of the fleet is in the Harbor, so not a secret.

 

On 2/21/2019 at 7:08 PM, Bernie Mac said:

, strengthening and repairing his defenses is far less noteworthy.

Lord Davos, disagrees with you 

Quote

White Harbor's walls of whitewashed stone rose before them, on the eastern shore where the White Knife plunged into the firth. Some of the city's defenses had been strengthened since the last time Davos had been here, half a dozen years before. The jetty that divided the inner and outer harbors had been fortified with a long stone wall, thirty feet tall and almost a mile long, with towers every hundred yards. There was smoke rising from Seal Rock as well, where once there had been only ruins. That could be good or bad, depending on what side Lord Wyman chooses.

t he could smell the peat smoke drifting off Seal Rocktoo. The sea stone dominated the approaches to the outer harbor, a massive grey-green upthrust looming fifty feet above the waters. Its top was crowned with a circle of weathered stones, a ringfort of the First Men that had stood desolate and abandoned for hundreds of years. It was not abandoned now. Davos could see scorpions and spitfires behind the standing stones, and crossbowmen peering between them. It must be cold up there, and wet.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I’ve thought about that as well, but  if I recall, the party is either all ahorse or using vehicles, an army with their wagons, carts, wayned and more importantly, men on foot would travel slower, right? It may also spend less fewer hours travelling as well; men on foot would tire quicker, gathering thousands of men and their stuff and ordering them in a marching line would take more day time.

 

Any group is only going to be as fast as its slowest member(s), usually the supply train, which is why they can get left behind at times. A walking horse is really no faster than a walking man. I don't ever see that wheelhouse having a runaway stagecoach moment, even if the driver(s) wanted it to. It's just too heavy and ungainly to ever move faster than a quick walking pace and its weight would bog it down in the mud no matter how much pulling force you have to move it, so that would slow it down too.

Like I said in my subsequent post; it seems weird that the royal court didn't travel an easier route and meet up with the supply train and men afterward.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 2/21/2019 at 10:00 AM, Bernie Mac said:

When was the last time an invading army marched south and reached Moat Cailin?

The Ironborn in ACOK/ASOS 

But I think you mean north, and that's a valid point. It's been centuries at the very least

[Corvo the Crow]

On 2/22/2019 at 8:12 PM, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

Any group is only going to be as fast as its slowest member(s), usually the supply train, which is why they can get left behind at times. A walking horse is really no faster than a walking man. I don't ever see that wheelhouse having a runaway stagecoach moment, even if the driver(s) wanted it to. It's just too heavy and ungainly to ever move faster than a quick walking pace and its weight would bog it down in the mud no matter how much pulling force you have to move it, so that would slow it down too.

Like I said in my subsequent post; it seems weird that the royal court didn't travel an easier route and meet up with the supply train and men afterward.

A few hundred camping and packing and getting in march order is still quicker than thousands so even if that carriage is slower royal party may(or may not) still cover more distance simply by spending more time on the road.