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Captain Marvel Thread 2: Talk to me Goose...


Jaxom 1974

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28 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So far, our villains have been mostly individuals or shadey organisations. The only species that's been presented as pure evil are the Dark Elves from Thor 2. The Kree must have some good folks, and the Skrulls must have some bad eggs. I don't see why the Skrull plotline can't develop along the lines of any other species, being some militant people out for revenge, and others who want to just establish a peaceful life in a new home. The Skrulls can target Earth as a secret base, because earth still mostly doesn't know about them.

#notall... cuts both ways.

Galactic species need to be mostly shades of grey, like humans, and not all one thing or another. It's lazy world building to make species totally warmongery or peaceful, passive or aggressive, greedy or generous. When stories do that then people start reading social commentary subtext into these cultures: The greedy ones are the Jews. The brutish violent ones are the Africans. The cunning intelligent ones are the Asians (who always have the best female fighters). The noble warrior heroes who always save the day are the Europeans. It's a story as old as racism.

Re the last part: That's why it needs to be disconnected from Talos either by faction or by time - if its a completely separate group of Skrulls and the movie is clear on that then I'll be much more OK with it.

The bolded is one of the failings of Thor2 because the Dark Elves really should have been almost sympathetic - their Universe died and one antithetical to their nature was born, they're simply trying to get their world back. Obviously we can't let them, time has moved on, but it should be understandable but misguided. The timeline of creation gets awfully weird when trying to reconcile these things though, given Asguardians live for thousands of years not billions and Odin's dad fought the Dark Elves.

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Yeah the movie causes me to wonder about that for second and then let it go because you're not supposed to notice that.

The first generation of greek titans were mostly forces of nature like oceanus who weren't necessarily personified as people, or only took human form on special occasions, etc.  So for them you can imagine time dilating on for billions of years and them not really noticing or bothering to suffer the effects of aging.    Like, they strode out of the eternal nothingness to begin the world, so the age of the universe is something they could endure.  The norse have a similar starting generation of natural forces as giants and deities and vanir so maybe it's only the recent Asgardians who've come to have the shorter lifespans.  Odin sleep could be a throwback to the earlier generations' timeless quality, like maybe Odin can't last forever but he can stretch it out considerably, where most of the younger ones have been caught up more completely in the flow of time, trapped by this universe into aging and dying in it.  Their divinity juice is fading over cosmic time?

Maybe the reason i was okay with the dark elf villains is i was able to sympathize with their lost universe motif.  It wasn't pure evil so much as purely bad for us.  To them, it's just what they would do.    Like when a bear or bluejay follows its nature to do something that looks nasty and heinous from our perspective.   Cracking open the robin eggs and eating them right in front of the robin parents, etc.   Evil!  Or, just nature's less civilized version of how we get our eggs by tapping the chicken on the shoulder to distract it and grabbing the egg when it turns to look away for a second.   

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2 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Yeah the movie causes me to wonder about that for second and then let it go because you're not supposed to notice that.

The first generation of greek titans were mostly forces of nature like oceanus who weren't necessarily personified as people, or only took human form on special occasions, etc.  So for them you can imagine time dilating on for billions of years and them not really noticing or bothering to suffer the effects of aging.    Like, they strode out of the eternal nothingness to begin the world, so the age of the universe is something they could endure.  The norse have a similar starting generation of natural forces as giants and deities and vanir so maybe it's only the recent Asgardians who've come to have the shorter lifespans.  Odin sleep could be a throwback to the earlier generations' timeless quality, like maybe Odin can't last forever but he can stretch it out considerably, where most of the younger ones have been caught up more completely in the flow of time, trapped by this universe into aging and dying in it.  Their divinity juice is fading over cosmic time?

Maybe the reason i was okay with the dark elf villains is i was able to sympathize with their lost universe motif.  It wasn't pure evil so much as purely bad for us.  To them, it's just what they would do.    Like when a bear or bluejay follows its nature to do something that looks nasty and heinous from our perspective.   Cracking open the robin eggs and eating them right in front of the robin parents, etc.   Evil!  Or, just nature's less civilized version of how we get our eggs by tapping the chicken on the shoulder to distract it and grabbing the egg when it turns to look away for a second.   

Everything is food for something.

The Marvel Comics canon on Bor is that he was among the gods who created the universe, and Odin is a demi-god because his mother was a giant (So pretty similar to the original Norse). So Bor living for billions of years while Odin / Asgardian lifespans are measured in 1000s of years is reasonably explicable, and doesn't create a plothole for Thor 2. A bit like how Peter Quill, in the MCU, is only immortal for as long as Ego lives. Maybe Odin was also immortal, until he let Bor die. I guess for most beings in the MU / MCU immortal doesn't mean you can't die, it just means you won't die from aging.

Then again, no one actually dies from aging, so we're all technically immortal. It's just that most of us are just much more vulnerable to diseases and infirmities, and the consequences of the abuses we put our bodies through over the course of our lives.

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Hmm thanks for that explanation. Odin genuinely panicking over the return of the Dark Elves makes more sense in this light - if they're just a force of enemies that his Dad defeated 20k years ago it seems more like something he should be confident about being able to beat now. If they're a force that were defeated literally billions of years ago and they're suddenly coming back that's a bit more of a primal "I can't fight that shit"

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Got around to seeing this. Generally liked it, but no real tension at the end. Even when she gets her full powers it was kind of anti-climactic; it felt like, "Yeah we knew that would happen." General superhero movie issue for me recently though, I get bored during the big final action scenes. There was a part of it where I feel like something got cut out. Carol is fighting Jude Law, and the lunchbox opens up. Next scene is the Skrulls leaving and Jude Law charging in to shoot one of them through the closing spaceship doors, but Carol is nowhere in sight. Then we cut to Carol fighting two random Kree. I really think some scene got edited out.

Still, I enjoyed it overall.

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$1Bn reached, achievement unlocked! I must say I'm very disappointed in the NZ contribution to this box office. I like to compare to Australia for these things. NZ is just over $3M, AU is just over $24M. So that's basically 8x difference. The population difference is 25M vs 4.5M so essentially 6x difference. So the NZ audience is definitely lagging.

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