The Missing Hand

[Syl of Syl]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

at least one of them fought for the Young Dragon.

That would be Rickon himself, which lends to your notion that he ends up at court possibly befriending the young Targaryen princes. Also of note is that Rickon marries a Jeyne Manderly who is possibly a daughter of Torrhen, which maybe hurts this theory and maybe helps it. Torrhen's certainly not returning to court, but maybe his daughters will.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

But before I do that I pose to you a hypothetical. Say someone were to travel back in time to about the 1840's in the American South. They were smart enough to bring something of wealth and purchase a plantation and some slaves. One of these slaves this person proceeds to rape, and eventually beat and whip and abuse in such ways that Ramsay would enjoy. There are no legal protections for this slave. According to the laws of the state he resides in there are no moral objections either. Has this time traveler done something morally wrong? If you answer yes, please back over your list and see how many of Tywin's behaviors you justified by culture, which does not actually prove he is not a narcissistic-sociopath. (because of course neither his daughter or x2 grandson could be either if your argument is the case.) If your answer is no, I don't believe there is room for us to have a civil conversation on the issues of morality as displayed in a fictional world or otherwise. 

Yeah, this is a naive view of humanity. Most of the US who publicly applauded or accepted, or even participated in the abuse African-slaves endured weren’t sociopaths. You don’t have to be a sociopath or psychopath, or whatever to be able to do great evil. Plenty evil can be, and has been done from every day normal people. It is not justifying rape to say someone who does such a thing does not have to be a sociopath. 

@Bernie Mac is not proven wrong if he doesn’t think rape in any context is immoral. 

You say Tywin is narcissistic. Actually show how he demonstrates any of the points you listed in association with narcissism  anymore than the typical nobleman.

You say he’s a sociopath. Actually explain how other than crying out how he’s done some really bad things. How

You’ve seemed to have conflated bad action with being a sociopath,

 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

While you are correct trying to get a brother a good position is not narcissism. But there are narcissists who will get a relative a good position anyway. (ex. the POTUS)

And? This doesn’t show narcissism. You might as well point out Tywin rode horses and that there are narcissists who  ride horses. Your point would be just as strong. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Fortunately, it is not the Hand of the King's job to support nepotism. It's his job to run the realm.

Tygett by all accounts was a extremely skilled knight. It’s not as if he was unqualified for the appointment Tywin wanted to give him. @Bernie Mac is right, there’s no reason Tywin’s interests and the realms interests are exclusive. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

That a man whose first reaction to his son being accused of a crime and taken for trial was to release a serial killer and murderer on a fairly innocent neighbor, and plot to kidnap the Hand of the King

Kidnapped. Let’s be clear even Robert saw what was done to Tyrion as illegal. And Cat did insinuate she was acting at least in part in the name of House Tully to divert attention to the RL and away from the destination she truly wanted to go. Tywin’s violent reaction was not actually to be unexpected. Anymore than Robb’s uprising at the behest of his father arrest was that surprising. It was an attack on his House. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Those are not the actions of a man who is putting the realm first.

No, they’re the actions of a Lord putting the welfare of his house first. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

The Crown becomes close to 3 million golden dragons in debt to him by the end of his life, meaning that he and his family will have sway over the ruling of the realm for the foreseeable future. 

Yep. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

His destruction of Castamere also does not benefit the realm. 

   It sort of does. It was either that or back off and allow the Reyenes to run amok in the Westerlands, causing chaos, inspiring other lords to rise up as well, or risk a lot of his men and potentially lose by charging into take the Castle-which would lead to more fighting across the Westerlands in the future. I would say 1/7 of the realm not being constantly at war as good for the realm.

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

As for Tygett, I'm sure that Gareth Long was the best master-at-arms Unwin Peake could find, and Mervyn Flowers and Amaury Peake never shamed the white cloak, Gedmund Peake made a great admiral, and all the other appointments that hand made were certainly for the benefit of the realm. But the five years of Aegon III's regency were much more peaceful than the five that came before.  My point is, if Tywin had got his way Dany and Viserys would have died on Dragonstone because their master-at-arms was a Lannister.

Using this logic you could also say if Tywin got his way in getting  Rheagar to marry Cersi, the Targyens, would still be in power. His support during RR would tipped the scales considerably.  

If Tywin had gotten his way odds are his relationship with Aerys hadn’t deteriorated to the point where Aerys took every chance he could to insult Tywin. Aerys would have to be a completely different person, to have ever granted Tywin’s request.

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Tywin's time as Hand is Unwin Peake come again, right down to stealing a Valyrian steel sword from another house.

Except for Tywin’s handship for the most part made the realm better off. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

The only reason he had twenty years of peace is because Barristan Selmy killed Maelys the Monstrous on the Stepstones. 

No. Just no. The idea of just beat the bad guy= long lasting peace is childish. Nobles  must still be sated, culled, and compromised with. The County’s still has needs for security, food, Justice, trade etc. Just knocking off one foreign generally reviled would-be usurper would not be enough have decades of peace. If Tywin was bad at his job, a revolt could easily break out. Hell even Tyrion makes a case for Aegon to go  to Westeros  in part because his father is no longer at helm.

“Tommen’s rule is bolstered by all of the alliances that my lord father built so carefully, but soon enough she will destroy them, every one.”

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

And yet, Robert Baratheon gave the realm thirteen ten years of peace after the Greyjoy Rebellion, 

And bankrupted the realm. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

and if it weren't for Tywin being oblivious to his children f*cking Robert could have lived to give the realm another ten more.

Or Robert could have died a year older due to being an obese alcoholic, who frequents brothels. Or if Robert hadn’t whispered “Lyanna” on their wedding night, Cersi would’ve acted a better wife to him and stopped fucking her brother. 

Or Joana could have told Tywin about the odd behavior their kids exhibited he may have put a stop to it.

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

Peace is easy when you have no enemies and no one is unleashing raping bands of serial killers across the realm. 

Yeah if rebellions and Wars aren’t happening peace could be achieved. 

On 4/1/2019 at 5:26 AM, CAllDSmith said:

I'm going to do my best to be polite here (as it seems you did not since you quoted three of the possible symptoms that I had already said may not apply or had little to no evidence of them. Also I didn't 'start off' with the first point. I copy and pasted these from a website.) and say that your entire point seems to be culture justifies everything mixed with Tywin fanboying that refuses you to allow some faults to be found in the Tywin Lannister mythos. (the creation of this mythos being one of the examples I would have brought up in response, but I'm not on this forum to just waste my time.)

You’re ignoring context. You see Tywin’s actions as morally bad so you’re conflating them with being evidence of being sociopath. You see Tywin as a bad guy so you’re ready to throw this label on him. It’s not that simple. You’re post reads like you don’t care if Tywin is acting like a person of his context is supposed to act-he’s still a sociopath. You even see him wanting to arrange daughter to be married to powerful man-something even extremely decent lords like Ned Stark would do-as evidence of Tywin being a sociopath.

[Lord Varys]

Tywin is definitely a narcissist and he can also qualify as a highly functional psychopath. That doesn't exclude him also being a pretty effective manager of his own affairs and a kingdom, but the way he interacts with people - especially his own family - is not even near the framework of 'normal behavior'. Westeros doesn't have a name for the thing he is, but they do not fear or loathe him because he is such a great and understanding guy.

Tywin is not as worse as Roose Bolton, but he is approaching him, and, just like Roose, he is able to rationally decide what urges and desires to follow and what to better not do.

The way to judge a powerful man in this world is how he deals with those people who entirely at his mercy - i.e. his own children. And there Tywin Lannister shows his true and ugly face