Stoney Sept as turning point and foreshadowing

[Seams]

Major players seem to go to the Riverlands town of Stoney Sept just before important turning points in Westeros history. There is also some vagueness around important details that makes me a little suspicious whether key facts have been withheld from readers and/or from other characters.

Do you have unanswered questions about Stoney Sept? Do you see an important role for Stoney Sept in future developments or in foreshadowing developments elsewhere in the series?

Here are some possible discussion topics:

• The central market of Stoney Sept contains a fountain with a leaping trout. We suspect that Brynden "Blackfish" Tully, whose sigil is a trout, escaped from Riverrun by swimming through an underwater gate. Do you think Brynden might "resurface" (so to speak) at Stoney Sept? Or is there another reason the author put the trout fountain at the center of this town? Perhaps the fish-out-of-water symbolism means that the town is under water, like Patchface's cryptic remarks about things that happen under water?
• Speaking of Patchface, he is also associated with bells because of the bells on his antler / bucket helmet. Is there a link between Patchface and Stoney Sept?
• Jon Connington recalls combatting Robert Baratheon on the steps of the sept at the Battle of the Bells. Harwin tells Arya that Robert and Jon never met in battle. Why would Connington's recollection differ from Harwin's account? Is it possible that someone else was wearing Robert's armor in the battle?
• Jon Connington continues to second guess his actions at the Stoney Sept and Myles Toyne, the exiled lord and sellsword colleague of Jon's in the Golden Company, tells Jon that Tywin Lannister would have burned down the entire town to ensure that Robert Baratheon was defeated. Because Robert survived at the Stoney Sept, he lived to engage Rhaegar at the Trident, leading to the fall of House Targaryen.
• Why was Robert so well-hidden at Stoney Sept? Granted, the people of the town were apparently largely supportive of the rebellion and they were moving Robert from house to house as Connington's troops searched for the wounded rebel. I have this sneaking suspicion that this statement by Robert might also be a factor:

I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it.

(AGoT, Chapter 30, Eddard VII)

Is it possible that Robert died at Stoney Sept of the wounds inflicted by Randall Tully's army at the Battle of Ashford? But was then revived in the manner of Lord Beric Dondarrion, Lady Stoneheart, Patchface or (we hope) Jon Snow? (Or like Miracle Max revives Westley in The Princess Bride?) Maybe Jon Connington couldn't find Robert because he was (temporarily) dead. Robert gives Ned Stark credit for winning the Battle of the Bells.

• Of course, I'm also interested in the symbolism - At the parley near Storm's End, Renly offers a peach to Stannis but Stannis declines; Robert fathered a child at a brothel called the Peach. The child (Bella) offers herself to Gendry, not knowing he is her half brother. Gendry declines.
• And some (probable) wordplay: step and sept are almost certainly a wordplay pair in the author's games with paired symbols. Ned Stark is killed on the steps of a sept. Jon Connington thinks that he lost the battle after combat with Robert on the steps of the sept. Catelyn's journey to Riverrun with Robb and Theon is laden with symbolism. When she arrives, she is lifted over the water onto a stone step. Is Stoney Sept a step toward something?
• Additional (potential) wordplay: is Stoney Sept linked to the Stepstones? Maelys I Blackfyre, the last (known) Blackfyre pretender, died in a battle at the Stepstones during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. The Stepstones seem like a place where power is displayed and skirmishes occur, but without a lot of intrinsic value of their own. Daemon Targaryen, brother of Viserys I Targaryen, named himself King of the Stepstones and the title survived through other so-called Kings for a few generations. The potential significance I see here is that the Stepstones were key locations for major players in both the Dance of the Dragons and the Blackfyre rebellions. In the current events, there are suspicions that Aurane Waters has taken the new ships commissioned by Cersei Lannister and that he is hiding in the Stepstones.

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Major players seem to go to the Riverlands town of Stoney Sept just before important turning points in Westeros history. There is also some vagueness around important details that makes me a little suspicious whether key facts have been withheld from readers and/or from other characters.

Do you have unanswered questions about Stoney Sept? Do you see an important role for Stoney Sept in future developments or in foreshadowing developments elsewhere in the series?

Very interesting--and I'm working my way through your list.

Your idea of "undead" Robert is interesting--but I'm wondering if the tie to the undead or resurrected might be more to the Others via the Mad Huntsman.

He is seeking revenge for the women in his care (wife and sister) as well as his property. Basic vengeance. But he chases people down with his hounds and engages in cruelty for his vengeance. 

That hunting reminds me of Ramsay. And of the Others with their pale spiders big as hounds. A Wild Hunt. Destroying all in their path.

Perhaps the Mad Huntsman from Stoney Sept is a hint as to what the Others are. . . 

Maybe.

I'm liking this topic, even though I've no idea what to do with it.

Will need to give the rest of your ideas at think. 

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Stoney Sept was an important moment in the rebellion but there is no evidence that says it will have significance in the future.  It just goes to show that being soft like Connington sometimes doesn't work.  He could have ended the rebellion then and there.

[Seams]

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm liking this topic, even though I've no idea what to do with it.

This is sort of the same position in which I find myself! I feel as if GRRM has arranged a tidy basket of clues at Stoney Sept, but I don't know how to apply them.

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm wondering if the tie to the undead or resurrected might be more to the Others via the Mad Huntsman.

He is seeking revenge for the women in his care (wife and sister) as well as his property. Basic vengeance. But he chases people down with his hounds and engages in cruelty for his vengeance. 

That hunting reminds me of Ramsay. And of the Others with their pale spiders big as hounds. A Wild Hunt. Destroying all in their path.

Perhaps the Mad Huntsman from Stoney Sept is a hint as to what the Others are. . .

The Mad Huntsman intrigued me anew as I was writing the OP. This is all a jumble of free association, for the most part.

Robert goes to Stoney Sept after being beaten in battle by Randall Tarly, whose sigil is a striding huntsman.

The Mad Hunstman also caused me to think about Ser Hyle Hunt, who was booted from Randall Tarly's service. His sigil is a dead deer - kind of an editorial comment on the end of the Baratheon era, I would think. Ser Hyle had been in charge of a gate at Maidenpool, and intervened when the foot soldiers there harassed (if I recall correctly) a young woman delivering eggs as well as Brienne who had stepped in to defend the egg seller. Sort of a chivalrous guy, in a slimy, left-handed way. The Mad Hunstman is also chivalrous in a violent, vengeful way.

Not to get too far off on Ser Hyle, but he also tells Brienne that the mother of his bastard daughter "doused me with a kettle of soup" the last time he went to see the child. This seems like an allusion to Arya's Weasel Soup at Harrenhal - like Stoney Sept, a central location in the orbit of the God's Eye. The Weasel Soup attack was a key moment in the switching of allegiances from Lannister to Stark except that the Boltons and Freys took possession of Harrnehal and secretly or soon supported the Lannisters. I associate this same kind of deceptive switching of allegiances with the stories from Stoney Sept.

I have a hunch that Stoney Sept is a symbolic gateway, like the gate overseen by Ser Hyle when he meets Brienne; perhaps also like the Harrenhal dungeon overseen by the guards attacked by the Weasel Soup. Maybe Ser Hyle and the Mad Huntsman are kind of "Coldhands South" characters, who meet people at doorways and usher them onto their next adventures. (A Tarly was also necessary to bring people to Coldhands. Coldhands provides elk meat for Bran and his companions; the Mad Hunstman provides sheep to feed starving people at Stoney Sept.) These gatekeepers might also have the power to slam the door in the face of people they don't like.

Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield is mentioned in connection with Stoney Sept as well. He is my best clue so far for the meaning and symbolism of the color brown. He doesn't wash, he functions as a master at arms for men who use sticks and rocks, he loves to eat free eggs and he steals a silver cup from the sentimental Eustace Osgrey. I think he represents the First Men and Dunk finds him repellent because Dunk is symbolically moving away from the era of the First Men (fondly remembered during his time with Ser Arlan) and into the era of the Andals and/or the Targaryen era. Ser Osgood eventually makes the same transition, leaving behind his solar filled with dusty, rusty and broken souvenirs and into marriage with the vibrant Rohanne from his son's generation. Bennis doesn't want to make that transition and he provokes a fight by cutting one of Rohanne's servants. The Bennis connection to the Stoney Sept is that he once killed a knight there. So maybe Bennis is hostile toward the Stoney Sept in the same way he is hostile toward Rohanne / the Andal evolution of Westeros.

Lots of stream-of-consciousness and free association here, as I say. Maybe I need to look at the larger set of landmarks around the God's Eye. If the Stoney Sept is a gateway to the God's Eye, the foreshadowing might make more sense if the events there or at Harrenhal are considered.

(Thanks for checking in but don't feel compelled to follow up. I know this is all odd and convoluted.)

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Major players seem to go to the Riverlands town of Stoney Sept just before important turning points in Westeros history. There is also some vagueness around important details that makes me a little suspicious whether key facts have been withheld from readers and/or from other characters.

Do you have unanswered questions about Stoney Sept? Do you see an important role for Stoney Sept in future developments or in foreshadowing developments elsewhere in the series?

It could be argued that Stoney Sept was perhaps a more important victory than the Trident. 

There are two details about the Battle of the Bells that I had overlooked until just recently:

1) The towns people of Stoney Sept hid Robert. Where was his army? Were they all killed at Ashford? Did the survivors get scattered?

2) Only Ned Stark and Hoster Tully forces descended upon Stoney Sept. Where were Jon Arryn's forces? Yes, Denys Arryn died at the Battle of the Bells, but I think he was with Ned as a type of insurance, just as Jon Arryn's marriage to Lysa was insurance for Hoster Tully.

In The Mystery Knight, Dunk and Egg leave Stoney Sept for the wedding at Whitewalls. They take a ferry across the God's Eye - not just any ferry, but "Ned's" ferry. Is this GRRM trolling us or is this a clue? Whitewalls was located on the eastern shore of the God's Eye, and south of Harrenhal. Bloodraven had it destroyed after revealing Lord Butterwell's plot to support a Blackfyre invasion and after he was found holding Egg hostage in Whitewall's sept. Why am I bringing this up? Because I'm trying to figure out where Jon Arryn went after he married Lysa Tully, AND I believe Lyanna was found in a sept - maybe even the ruins of Whitewalls.

We know Jon married Lysa, because Catelyn recalls a double wedding. Ned and Jon married Catelyn and Lysa in order to secure Tully men. Catelyn mentions, not only seeing Ned for the very first time on their wedding day, but also having two weeks with him before he rushed back to war. These two seemingly minor details indicate that they married prior to the Battle of the Bells, with the two weeks being the length of time it took Hoster to muster an army. Then Ned and Hoster with their men descended upon Stoney Sept, but where the hell did Jon Arryn go?

Robert hiding in a brothel is symbolic of how he prostituted himself to win the throne, and alternately how Lyanna's maidenhead was treated. She was raped several times like a prostitute, and left to die (I suspect) in a sept. 

 

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Of course, I'm also interested in the symbolism - At the parley near Storm's End, Renly offers a peach to Stannis but Stannis declines; Robert fathered a child at a brothel called the Peach. The child (Bella) offers herself to Gendry, not knowing he is her half brother. Gendry declines.

I think I have an explanation for the peach symbolism. The lord-fathers prostitute their maiden-daughters for courtly favors and power, and maidenheads have become commodities. This is punctuated when Renly was unable to make an alliance with his own brother Stannis based solely on their close relation. Renly offered Stannis a peach which symbolized the female genitalia, because he knew his brother would not be moved if he offered him an actual maidenhead.

[Ser Leftwich]

Is Stoney Sept a royal fiefdom or is it controlled by a lord that answers to the Riverlands?

[Ser Leftwich]

On 3/31/2019 at 5:03 PM, Seams said:

• Jon Connington recalls combatting Robert Baratheon on the steps of the sept at the Battle of the Bells. Harwin tells Arya that Robert and Jon never met in battle. Why would Connington's recollection differ from Harwin's account? Is it possible that someone else was wearing Robert's armor in the battle?

 

Harwin was only ~12 at the time of the Battle of the Bells and it is unlikely that he would have been there. In this case, we can probably trust Connington. (I think this is re-enforcement of we readers not being able to trust some of Harwin's other observations/'facts'.) It seems out of character for Robert to let someone go fight in his armor.

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Harwin was only ~12 at the time of the Battle of the Bells and it is unlikely that he would have been there. In this case, we can probably trust Connington. (I think this is re-enforcement of we readers not being able to trust some of Harwin's other observations/'facts'.) It seems out of character for Robert to let someone go fight in his armor.

Isn’t there something in the WB about this? Something along the lines of, “had they met yadda yadda”?

ETA: TWoIaF, Robert’s Rebellion

“More victories were to come for Lord Robert and the stormlords as they marched to join forces with Lord Arryn and the Northmen who supported their cause. Rightly famed is Robert’s grand victory at Stoney Sept, also called the Battle of the Bells, where he slew the famous Ser Myles Mooton—once Prince Rhaegar’s squire—and five men besides, and might well have killed the new Hand, Lord Connington, had the battle brought them together. The victory sealed the entry of the riverlands into the conflict, following the marriage of Lord Tully’s daughters to Lords Arryn and Stark.”

 

[Ser Leftwich]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t there something in the WB about this? Something along the lines of, “had they met yadda yadda”?

ETA: TWoIaF, Robert’s Rebellion

“More victories were to come for Lord Robert and the stormlords as they marched to join forces with Lord Arryn and the Northmen who supported their cause. Rightly famed is Robert’s grand victory at Stoney Sept, also called the Battle of the Bells, where he slew the famous Ser Myles Mooton—once Prince Rhaegar’s squire—and five men besides, and might well have killed the new Hand, Lord Connington, had the battle brought them together. The victory sealed the entry of the riverlands into the conflict, following the marriage of Lord Tully’s daughters to Lords Arryn and Stark.”

 

That reads like buttering up Robert. A case of, "of course the mighty Robert would have slain the traitor Connington, had they met in battle," the tone of the whole book is to butter up the Baratheon regime.

Counter point is that Connington would know Robert well, Robert being his liege lord. They would have been crossing paths regularly since they were born. Would Connington mistake him for another, if they were close enough to trade blows? Seems unlikely.

Counter-counter point, Connington thinks, "... Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand..." Robert is not well known for having a blade in hand.

Overall, Connington is the more trustworthy source.

Lastly, 1) how could it add to the story if we learned that someone else was in Robert's armor, 2) how would we learn this?

The only possibility that leaps to mind is Richard Lonmouth. We know he was reasonably close with Robert. We don't know which side he fought for in RR. It would be the kind of painful situation that GRRM likes to have Lonmouth being of split loyalties between Robert and the King, to then kill his co-squire, Miles Mooton, and then be remorseful about it.

And, it is vaguely possible that works with the "Lem = Lonmouth Theory."

Although, counter-counter-counter-counterpoint, Connington would also have know Lonmouth fairly well.

Counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint, how would the maester writing the world book know one way or another?

(Ha, I may have convinced myself.)