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Tyrion1991

About Jorah....

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8 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

But... it's been obvious it was coming for years (less obvious in the show, granted, but still).

 

In Wheel of Time you have a character who is insane and that characters arc is to rise above that. It’s obvious that Rand is mad but the question is will he triumph over that. There is no comparable plot thread over Dany overcoming her madness until season 8. The two are not comparable. It’s very apparent to me that GRRM intended to parody Robert Jordan’s character with Dany.

The show and the books have implied that  Dany is fierce and perhaps dances close to the sun. Not that she is mad. But it is nihilism, cynisim and back handed to have her go evil for the sake of going evil. If it was obvious then there would be no tragedy because you would be waiting for it to happen and would have no investment in the character. This because her going Mad Queen is a rubbish storyline.

All it amounts to, as the show has the balls to repeatedly tell you, is that “you’re a fool for thinking this girl was a hero”. That’s not a story that’s just an insult. It’s condemning you for liking the character after spending 7 seasons building her up as a hero who has sacrificed and overcome every obstacle. 

 

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Jorah's advice steered her wrong though. An army of Unsullied made absolutely no difference in how ugly her Sack of King's Landing would be compared to Tywin's which Jorah witnessed. She should've been looking for an army of Jon Snows instead.

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3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s very apparent to me that GRRM intended to parody Robert Jordan’s character with Dany.

I don't think GRRM writes major characters simply as parodies of other authors' characters to be honest.

4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The show and the books have implied that  Dany is fierce and perhaps dances close to the sun. Not that she is mad.

Both have shown her to be utterly riuthless when it suited her, and with a cruel streak to boot. Whether that qualifies as "madness" is beside the point. In E5 she's not burning everyone because she's insane, she's doing it because she wants them all to fear her, in retaliation for not immediately loving her. That's... well, insane is probably the best word, though if you want to substitute it for "cruel and everything she claims to fight against" I won't argue. She's always been a rank hypocrite.

8 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

All it amounts to, as the show has the balls to repeatedly tell you, is that “you’re a fool for thinking this girl was a hero”.

Well in my opinion, you kinda are. The signs were there all along - not from S1E1, but as soon as she starts truly exercising power in her own right, it's fire and blood all the way. She just has the "good luck" to be mostly facing truly despicable enemies at first, so her atrocities seem acceptable in comparison.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I don't think GRRM writes major characters simply as parodies of other authors' characters to be honest.

Both have shown her to be utterly riuthless when it suited her, and with a cruel streak to boot. Whether that qualifies as "madness" is beside the point. In E5 she's not burning everyone because she's insane, she's doing it because she wants them all to fear her, in retaliation for not immediately loving her. That's... well, insane is probably the best word, though if you want to substitute it for "cruel and everything she claims to fight against" I won't argue. She's always been a rank hypocrite.

Well in my opinion, you kinda are. The signs were there all along - not from S1E1, but as soon as she starts truly exercising power in her own right, it's fire and blood all the way. She just has the "good luck" to be mostly facing truly despicable enemies at first, so her atrocities seem acceptable in comparison.

 

You can think whatever you want. 

In a season 6 commentary after the episode DnD actually say Dany isn’t mad like her father but it is fierce. So it isn’t a long running character arc for her but something they pulled out in the last season.

Also in all of season 7 she’s continuously looking to avoid attacking Kings Landing. “I don’t want to be the Queen of Ashes” 

If your only defence of the story is a smug “I always knew she was evil and ma boy Jons gonna stab her” well you obviously didn’t buy into her tragic downfall as a story. So you’re undermining your own defence. You didn’t like Danys story to begin with and felt nothing when she went evil. That would not have been the author or writers intent.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If your only defence of the story is a smug “I always knew she was evil and ma boy Jons gonna stab her”

Well I said nothing about Jon, but nice strawman.

10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

you obviously didn’t buy into her tragic downfall as a story

I suppose not, no - because it's a "tragedy" entirely of her own making

10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

You didn’t like Danys story to begin with

Au contraire, I like the story, and I like the character as a literary construct (as a character). I just don't like the kind of person she represents, I didn't then and I don't now.

10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

felt nothing when she went evil

I felt a certain amount of of vindication at having been right all along. While on these forums that's not much of an accomplishment, "out there" in the real world, most people thought she was a typical hero.

For the record I'm not defending the show, I think they did a fairly poor job of showing her descent into madness/evil/whateveryouwannacallit by omitting or trivializing many of her more questionable deeds in the earlier seasons - the books do a far better job in that regard.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/14/2019 at 5:23 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

In a season 6 commentary after the episode DnD actually say Dany isn’t mad like her father but it is fierce. So it isn’t a long running character arc for her but something they pulled out in the last season.

In season 6 she wanted to return the Masters cities to ash.  From what we know that was Astapor, Yunkai, and Volanits, among others.  Maybe New Ghis also.  Tyrion convinces her to try something else.   In season 2 she threatens to burn Qarth down if they don't let her in.

I disagree re. it being something pulled out in the last season.  At the very least, it was part of seasons 7 and 8 and perhaps 6.

Quote

Also in all of season 7 she’s continuously looking to avoid attacking Kings Landing. “I don’t want to be the Queen of Ashes” 

Actually she wasn't looking to continuously avoid attacking Kings Landing.  Tyrion and Varys were continuously looking to avoid attacking KL.  It was Tryion who first said "You don't want to be Queen of the Ashes".  (S7, ep2).  Daenarys agrees, but with some reluctance.   In ep 4, she flat out states that she is going take her dragons and attack KL.  This time it is Jon who convinces her not to.  This doesn't qualify as wanting or avoiding an attack on KL, but in Ep 7, the threatened retaliation for anything bad happening in the Big Meeting is that KL will be burned to the ground.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

In season 6 she wanted to return the Masters cities to ash.  From what we know that was Astapor, Yunkai, and Volanits, among others.  Maybe New Ghis also.  Tyrion convinces her to try something else.   In season 2 she threatens to burn Qarth down if they don't let her in.

I disagree re. it being something pulled out in the last season.  At the very least, it was part of seasons 7 and 8 and perhaps 6.

Actually she wasn't looking to continuously avoid attacking Kings Landing.  Tyrion and Varys were continuously looking to avoid attacking KL.  It was Tryion who first said "You don't want to be Queen of the Ashes".  (S7, ep2).  Daenarys agrees, but with some reluctance.   In ep 4, she flat out states that she is going take her dragons and attack KL.  This time it is Jon who convinces her not to.  This doesn't qualify as wanting or avoiding an attack on KL, but in Ep 7, the threatened retaliation for anything bad happening in the Big Meeting is that KL will be burned to the ground.

 

Which means she continuously fought her own nature and listened to her advisors. Which is what people keep complaining she doesn’t do in the books but apparently when she does it the plot decides to prevent her from winning. 

She advocates a purely military strike on the Red Keep and it’s garrison. Apparently Tyrion n Co believed, wrongly, that Dany couldn’t neatly destroy the Iron Fleet and city defences without collateral damage. In episode 5 she does that. She should have attacked on arrival. It’s only because by then she’s been driven insane because of plot contrivance that she decides to burn a surrendered city. 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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On 5/14/2019 at 6:35 AM, Nerevanin said:

It seemed to me that Jorah was always a kind of a voice of reason to Dany. He loved her, yes, but at the same time he helped keeping her mad side at bay. He gave her an advice even before the battle and she listened. He was her oldest friend, she trusted him almost unconditionally and he was the only one she kinda listened to. Now he's gone, there's no one else to tame her dark side because she doesn't trust no one.

:agree:

Jorah kept Dany grounded and, as mentioned elsewhere, was her moral compass.  He was her trusted 'Old Bear'.

 

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4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Which means she continuously fought her own nature and listened to her advisors.

Yep.  And when her advisors were discredited or killed, her own nature came to the fore w/o mediation.

That's part of her tragedy.  She fought against that nature, but, in the end, succumbed to it.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Which is what people keep complaining she doesn’t do in the books but apparently when she does it the plot decides to prevent her from winning. 

She advocates a purely military strike on the Red Keep and it’s garrison. Apparently Tyrion n Co believed, wrongly, that Dany couldn’t nearly destroy the Iron Fleet and city defences without collateral damage. In episode 5 she does that. She should have attacked on arrival. It’s only because by then she’s been driven insane because of plot contrivance that she decides to burn a surrendered city.

That is what Tyrion believed, yes.  With 3 dragons, 2 w/o riders, and 30,000+ Dothraki collateral damage was quite likely. 

In the WoW book excerpts, aren't the riderless dragons at the Battle of Mereen being quite wantonly and randomly destructive?  Once they get their dander up, I could certainly see Rhaegal and Viserion strafing parts of the city proper.

I'm not sure that the strike on the Red Keep was purely a military strike.  Maybe it was.   Who is to say if the attack would stay limited to the Red Keep?   Fire is a very bad thing in a city like KL.  Very bad.

 

For the record, I thought that Tyrion's advice was bad from the start and his plans were way over-complicated.   He was too clever.  And he discounted the effectiveness of naval power.   I mean his advice and plans for winning the Iron Throne, of course.

 

 

As a side question,  what drove Aerys mad?  Was it being imprisoned at Duskendale?

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On 5/13/2019 at 6:56 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany becoming Mad Queen ruins Jorahs story. Every time he saved her, he has allowed a monster to live who would kill millions of innocents.

You can never watch any of his scenes without knowing that he has fundamentally misjudged the character. He offered his sword to Jon saying that he could pass it on to their children; not going to happen. In fact, it’s quite likely going to be that blade Jon uses to murder Daenerys before plonking his backside on the throne.

His whole dramatic sacrifice for her was totally foolish. Dany going mad because a coin landed the wrong way, means you are being told that he should have left her to die. 

This whole Mad Queen plot leaves me with a sick taste in my mouth. It’s totally ruined the series for me. 

I have to admit, Jorah's death put me a bad mood. His devotion to Dany somehow melted my heart. Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but I wouldve liked Jorah to eventually get some happiness. It was never going to happen with Dany,  but hopefully with someone else. I didn't like the way he died. Jorah in the books is slightly creepy, but show Jorah, largely due to Iain glen, was pretty likable.

The mad queen plot ruined the series for me as well.

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Tbh I don't think it ruins his character at all. It makes his overall story sadder, yes but that doesn't mean its ruined. In a way it shows how important he was to her since theres a chance she would have shown restraint with him looking on and someone she could confide in at her side. 

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