Alys Qoherys and the Riverlands valyrians

[Ckram]

This theory was first posted on brazilian subreddit, /r/Valyria/.

I was recently introduced to the fact that the House Qoherys, to which belonged the master-of-arms of Dragonstone at the time of the Aegon Conquest, Quenton Qoherys, to whom Aegon gave a title of nobility and the possession of Harrenhal for his services, was of Valyrian descent (according to semi-canonical source, ie. House Qoherys entry at The Citadel).

Quenton had two sons and was a widower at the time, so Aegon arranged for him to marry the second daughter of Edmyn Tully, the new Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. We do not know if Quenton had new children with his new wife, nor how many children his children had with their respective (eventual) wives. But as the House is now extinct, none of it is important. Except for Quenton's grandson, best known as Gargon the guest.

Ecce Homo:

Quote

When Lord Qoherys died in a fall from his horse in 9 AC, his title passed to his grandson Gargon, a fat and foolish man with an unseemly appetite for young girls who became known as Gargon the Guest. Lord Gargon soon became infamous for turning up at every wedding celebrated within his domains so that he might enjoy the lord’s right of the first night. A more unwelcome wedding guest can scarce be imagined. He also made free with the wives and daughters of his own servants.

King Aenys was still on his progress, guesting with Lord Tully of Riverrun on his way back to King’s Landing, when the father of a maid whom Lord Qoherys had “honored” opened a postern gate at Harrenhal to an outlaw who styled himself Harren the Red and claimed to be a grandson of Harren the Black. The brigands pulled his lordship from his bed and dragged him to the castle godswood, where Harren sliced off his genitals and fed them to a dog.

(F&B, The Sons of the Dragon)

The point is that unless Gargon was infertile, there is a good chance that he had begotten bastards and spread Valyrian genetics across lands under Harrenhal's power at the time. That way, the smallfolk of the Riverlands can since then have a drop of dragon blood in them.

Hence, the secondary characters from Harrenhall and its vicinities can be viewed from a new perspective. My mind went directly to one specific character: the mysterious witch Alys River. She lived during the Dragon Dance, was Prince Aemond Targaryen's dearest lover, and had inexplicable mystical powers.

Since she was found by Aemond right in Harrenhal, she is a strong candidate for Qoherys descendant. On the other hand, Fire & Blood Vol 1 ended without knowing what happened to her and the bastard son Prince Aemond put in her belly. Material for the next volume, apparently.

But it doesn't have to end there. There are characters such as Jenny of Oldstones, who was said half-mad and descended from the First Men. But it doesn't prevent her from having a drop of Qoherys' valyrian blood. Maybe Dunk and Egg will travel the Riverlands again and will encounter people touched by Gargon the Guest indecency. In the very A Song of ice and Fire, Jaime and Brienne's plot is also subject to this.

So, lots of possibilities.

[Daendrew]

It is an interesting thought. 

It isn't clear if the Blood of the Dragon is somehow different from ordinary Valyrian blood. 

I am not aware of any Velaryon and definitely no Celitgar who was a dragon rider of the top of my head. The Velaryon offspring got it from Targ marriages.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think the time line allows for Alys Rivers to be a bastard daughter of Gargon the Guest. He died in 37 AC, after all. The rumors about Alys don't make her being about a hundred years old in 130 AC.

However, it is no bad idea to imagine that Alys might be a Qoherys descendant of hypothetical younger children Lord Quenton produced with his Tully wife.

My personal ideas are that she is either one of the daughters of Lucamore Strong which were brought up as wards of Lord Bywin at Harrenhal (they were explicitly named Rivers after Lucamore's downfall) or a bastard daughter of Rhaena Targaryen and Maegor Towers (it has been said they formed an odd friendship of sorts after they resided together at Harrenhal).

Of the two the Lucamore Strong theory is much more likely, of course, but I also like the Rhaena-Maegor idea.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 7/31/2019 at 1:13 AM, Ckram said:

This theory was first posted on brazilian subreddit, /r/Valyria/.

I was recently introduced to the fact that the House Qoherys, to which belonged the master-of-arms of Dragonstone at the time of the Aegon Conquest, Quenton Qoherys, to whom Aegon gave a title of nobility and the possession of Harrenhal for his services, was of Valyrian descent (according to semi-canonical source, ie. House Qoherys entry at The Citadel).

Quenton had two sons and was a widower at the time, so Aegon arranged for him to marry the second daughter of Edmyn Tully, the new Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. We do not know if Quenton had new children with his new wife, nor how many children his children had with their respective (eventual) wives. But as the House is now extinct, none of it is important. Except for Quenton's grandson, best known as Gargon the guest.

Ecce Homo:

The point is that unless Gargon was infertile, there is a good chance that he had begotten bastards and spread Valyrian genetics across lands under Harrenhal's power at the time. That way, the smallfolk of the Riverlands can since then have a drop of dragon blood in them.

Hence, the secondary characters from Harrenhall and its vicinities can be viewed from a new perspective. My mind went directly to one specific character: the mysterious witch Alys River. She lived during the Dragon Dance, was Prince Aemond Targaryen's dearest lover, and had inexplicable mystical powers.

Since she was found by Aemond right in Harrenhal, she is a strong candidate for Qoherys descendant. On the other hand, Fire & Blood Vol 1 ended without knowing what happened to her and the bastard son Prince Aemond put in her belly. Material for the next volume, apparently.

But it doesn't have to end there. There are characters such as Jenny of Oldstones, who was said half-mad and descended from the First Men. But it doesn't prevent her from having a drop of Qoherys' valyrian blood. Maybe Dunk and Egg will travel the Riverlands again and will encounter people touched by Gargon the Guest indecency. In the very A Song of ice and Fire, Jaime and Brienne's plot is also subject to this.

So, lots of possibilities.

I like it! 

[Lady Dacey]

I like it too!

@Ckram, dear, are you Brazilian? Pray tell! 

[Ckram]

On 7/31/2019 at 7:20 PM, Lord Varys said:

Lucamore Strong theory is much more likely

I think her mother is the Qoherys descendant and Strong is her father.

On 7/31/2019 at 6:28 PM, Daendrew said:

It isn't clear if the Blood of the Dragon is somehow different from ordinary Valyrian blood. 

It's not clear. However it would be very strange if only the dragonrider have some kind of magic in their genetics. The wiki says that only dragonlords displayed the so called typical valyrian features (eyes and hair) but doesn't provide a source for that.

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

are you Brazilian?

Yes, I am, Milady. E vc tb, correto?

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

E vc tb, correto?

Sim 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Ckram said:

I think her mother is the Qoherys descendant and Strong is her father.

Would be difficult to imagine. Strong secretly married and had children by his wives long before Jaehaerys I gave Harrenhal to Lucamore's brother Bywin Strong after his sister Queen Rhaena had died. How likely is it that Lucamore started an affair with and eventually married some Qoherys descendant if neither he nor his family had had any connection to Harrenhal? Not very likely. As a Kingsguard most if not all his wives are likely to have been Kingslanders or at least women who lived in King's Landing at the time.

[Ckram]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Would be difficult to imagine.

Sorry, I meant Lord Lyonel.

[Belgarad]

On 7/31/2019 at 5:28 PM, Daendrew said:

It is an 

I am not aware of any Velaryon and definitely no Celitgar who was a dragon rider of the top of my head. The Velaryon offspring got it from Targ marriages.

One could argue, using real-life genetics, that Addam of Hull (later Addam Velaryon) did not have any Targaryen genes.  His mother was the daughter of a ship wright and his father was most likely the Sea Snake Corlys Velaryon.  Corlys would have given him the Velaryon Y-chromosome and his mother would have given him one of her two X-chromosomes, neither of which would be Targaryen genes.  Note: it is the exact same result if Addam's father was Laenor. 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Belgarad said:

One could argue, using real-life genetics, that Addam of Hull (later Addam Velaryon) did not have any Targaryen genes.  His mother was the daughter of a ship wright and his father was most likely the Sea Snake Corlys Velaryon.  Corlys would have given him the Velaryon Y-chromosome and his mother would have given him one of her two X-chromosomes, neither of which would be Targaryen genes.  Note: it is the exact same result if Addam's father was Laenor. 

There are more chromosomes than merely the X and Y chromosome...

Also, you should keep in mind that Marilda of Hull herself could have dragonseeds among her descendants.

On 8/2/2019 at 9:57 PM, Ckram said:

Sorry, I meant Lord Lyonel.

This is what we learn about Alys Rivers' background:

Quote

Who was this woman? A serving wench who dabbled in potions and spells, says Munkun. A woods witch, claims Septon Eustace. A malign enchantress who bathed in the blood of virgins to preserve her youth, Mushroom would have us believe. Her name suggests bastard birth…but we know little of her father, and less of her mother. Munkun and Eustace tell us she was sired by Lord Lyonel Strong in his callow youth, making her a natural half-sister to his sons Harwin (Breakbones) and Larys (the Clubfoot). But Mushroom insists that she was much older, that she was wet nurse to both boys, perhaps even to their father a generation earlier.
Though her own children had all been stillborn, the milk that flowed so abundantly from the breasts of Alys Rivers had nourished countless babes born of other women at Harrenhal. Was she in truth a witch who lay with demons, bringing forth dead children as payment for the knowledge they gave her? Was she a simpleminded slattern, as Eustace believes? A wanton who used her poisons and potions to bind men to her, body and soul?
Alys Rivers was at least forty years of age during the Dance of the Dragons, that much is known; Mushroom makes her even older. All agree that she looked younger than her years, but whether this was simple happenstance, or achieved through her practice of the dark arts, men continue to dispute. Whatever her powers, it would seem Daemon Targaryen was immune to them, for little is heard of this supposed sorceress whilst the prince held Harrenhal.

Could be that Alys was born around 190 AC and Lord Lyonel Strong's daughter - but then it is rather odd that her background was obscure. If Mushroom is correct and she was much older than forty years and she was also the wetnurse of Lord Lyonel himself then we really get her origins back to rather obscure times.