What exactly is the point of Quentyn?

[Mister Smikes]

On 12/22/2021 at 6:08 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

I have answered already, what my opinion about Quentyn is. First, he fits the trope of the prince that goes on adventure to meet his princess. He tries himself as a dragonrider. Both these things fail miserably. The theory (somebody brought up in this thread before me) that GRRM is ironizing (or "deconstructing" as others may prefer) a literary trope of the whole genre cannot so easily be dismissed.

Okay.  I dislike it.  And could raise several points against it. 

But I would never say it was based on nothing.  I would never say there was no evidence for it.  It is not as though GRRM has not done vaguely similar things before, first with the death of Ned; and then with the deaths of Robb and Catelyn.

On 12/22/2021 at 6:08 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

Second, the result of his actions is that he released the dragons - without doubt an important plot twist, that does justify a few POVs. And Quentyn's POVs gives us some insights about the sellsword companies he travels with.

We can surely discuss, if there aren't too many POVs  of Quentyn's or if a POV by e.g. Drinkwater wouldn't have been better. But in my opinion this is already enough for Quentyn to "have a point" as the thread title questions.

This explanation does not explain.   For the dragons to be released, GRRM does not need to supply 4 POV chapters, and many other chapters in other POVs, devoted to backstory of one of several people who happened to be involved in releasing dragons who (judging from what they were doing to the Pit) were just about on the verge of escaping anyway.

Your first explanation is more plausible.  Because as much as I hate nihilistic decontruction, I cannot prove, ultimately, that this is not exactly what GRRM is up to.

On 12/22/2021 at 6:08 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

Edit: Quentyn shows that you can have Targaryen blood and still not be a dragonrider. This may or may not be important for the further plot, but it is something that should be noticed.

Quentyn was attacked by Dragon B, while trying to tame Dragon A.  Dragon A (Viserion) even seemed to be responding to Quentyn, and that's not just my opinion.  It is also the opinion voiced in the RADIO WESTEROS discussion linked to above, and those guys believe Q is dead.  If Frog failed and died (and I don't think he did), we learned nothing about whether or not he could, potentially, have become a dragonrider given the right circumstances.  He would be just one of many potential dragonriders who died without ever riding a dragon:  Rhaegar, Viserys, Aerys, Rhaella, many others.  

Edited December 25, 2021 by Mister Smikes

[Dreadscythe95]

1. To set the Dragons free. In the series they just broke the doors, LOL.

2. To push the Martells to fAegon. With Quentin, the only unmarried male heir of House Martel dead, Arianne will now have to marry fAegon, which is a fatal move because it destroys the fAegon-Daenerys alliance that would unite the House of the Dragons and now they will be enemies, which forshadows the Dance of The Dragons that is coming.

 

From a narrative stantpoint it's one of my favorite things though, because it completely deconstructs the arc of the hero that everything has fallen into his shoulders.  

[Gilbert Green]

On 10/25/2022 at 2:45 PM, Dreadscythe95 said:

From a narrative standpoint it's one of my favorite things though, because it completely deconstructs the arc of the hero that everything has fallen into his shoulders.  

Nothing is deconstructed when a frog lives and dies as a frog.  It is only when the frog miraculously becomes a handsome prince, that he subverts our expectations.

[Dreadscythe95]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:23 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Nothing is deconstructed when a frog lives and dies as a frog.  It is only when the frog miraculously becomes a handsome prince, that he subverts our expectations.

You are cringe if you think beauty is what makes a hero, no offence.

A hero's arc is one of redemption, high stakes and overcoming your struggles to rise above.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Dreadscythe95

[Gilbert Green]

3 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

You are cringe if you think beauty is what makes a hero.

A hero's arc is one of redemption, high stakes and overcoming your struggles to rise above.

You are being too literal about a point made in the form of a metaphor.  Also, what's with the insults?

Edited November 19, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Mithras]

His tale shrunk in the telling 

[Dreadscythe95]

11 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

You are being too literal about a point made in the form of a metaphor.  Also, what's with the insults?

Cringe an insult? Ok, sorry.

I didn't like your arrogance though, that's why it may have seemed a bit more aggresive.

A frog can't be a hero since when? 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Dreadscythe95

[Gilbert Green]

6 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Cringe an insult? Ok, sorry.

I didn't like your arrogance though, that's why it may have seemed a bit more aggresive.

A frog can't be a hero since when? 

Well, I'll try not to say things that antagonize you.  Not sure how, though.  Was it my avatar, looking down its nose at you?  I'll try to find another image, if you like.  [Edit:  There you go, I changed it.]

To answer your question:  I never said a frog could not become a hero.  I may have suggested, by analogy, that if a frog becomes a prince is might subvert our expectations.  In trying to make this point, I referenced a well-known fairy tale.  Westeros seems to have a similar fairy tale, since Dany seems to make jokes/references to it in the text.

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Dreadscythe95]

6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

Well, I'll try not to say things that antagonize you.  Not sure how, though.  Was it my avatar, looking down its nose at you?  I'll try to find another image, if you like.  [Edit:  There you go, I changed it.]

To answer your question:  I never said a frog could not become a hero.  I may have suggested, by analogy, that if a frog becomes a prince is might subvert our expectations.  In trying to make this point, I referenced a well-known fairy tale.  Westeros seems to have a similar fairy tale, since Dany seems to make jokes/references to it in the text.

 

You don't antagonise me relax. I found the whole comment bitter towards the author and honestly there is no reason for that. 

There is no subvertion of the story there if a frog becomes a prince, you understand it very well. If you didn't want to say that in a negative way it's honestly my bad all the way but then I don't understand your comment at all tbh...

*Also bro, don't change your avatar for me. I am not an authority in here and I never had a problem with it to begin with, xD.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Dreadscythe95

[Gilbert Green]

4 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I found the whole comment bitter towards the author and honestly there is no reason for that. 

You were mistaken.  I expressed no bitterness towards the author at all.  I never assumed that GRRM endorsed the idea I responded to.  And even if he did, I have just as much right to disagree with GRRM as anyone else.

4 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

There is no subvertion of the story there if a frog becomes a prince, you understand it very well.

Do I?  I have no idea what it means to "subvert a story".  But it certainly does "subvert expectations" (in the sense of being a surprise), is when the frog becomes a prince.  The only reason it is not a surprise, is because the story is famous, and you and I are no longer children.  Famous as the story is, we still don't tend to expect that frogs will turn out to be enchanted princes.  We tend to expect that they will remain frogs.

Anyhow, I dug up the "frog prince" reference from DANCE.  Here it is:

     The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. "Radiance?" said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. "Why do you laugh?"
    "They call him frog," she said, "and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children's tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love." Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. "Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?"
    "No, Your Grace."
    "I feared as much." Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he's the prince, and not the one with the wide shoulders and the sandy hair.[....]

It seems to me that, as far as the expectations go, nobody expects the frog to be or become an enchanted prince.  Dany thinks of it as a joke.  Frog himself denies it.  The Ghiscari have never heard of the tale.  Thereafter, Q is called "Prince Frog" as a term of mockery.  Him dying as he (seemingly) did does not subvert any expectations.  It fulfills them.  He lived a frog; he died a frog.

If the point is merely that protagonists of their own POV chapters can die, that point has already been made multiple times in the series.  Will; Eddard; Cressen; Chet; Catelyn; Pate; Arys; Kevan; Merrit; Varamyr.  And now (maybe) Quentyn.  Did I forget someone?  A POV character dying is surely not a surprise at this point.

So what, then, was the point of Quentyn?  Don't know.  All I am saying that "to subvert expectations" makes no sense to me as an explanation.

4 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Also bro, don't change your avatar for me.

Too late.  I've changed the avatar, and I think I like it.  Gilbert Green is now tipping his hat to you.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Dreadscythe95]

On 11/20/2022 at 3:32 AM, Gilbert Green said:

You were mistaken.  I expressed no bitterness towards the author at all.  I never assumed that GRRM endorsed the idea I responded to.  And even if he did, I have just as much right to disagree with GRRM as anyone else.

Do I?  I have no idea what it means to "subvert a story".  But it certainly does "subvert expectations" (in the sense of being a surprise), is when the frog becomes a prince.  The only reason it is not a surprise, is because the story is famous, and you and I are no longer children.  Famous as the story is, we still don't tend to expect that frogs will turn out to be enchanted princes.  We tend to expect that they will remain frogs.

Anyhow, I dug up the "frog prince" reference from DANCE.  Here it is:

     The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. "Radiance?" said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. "Why do you laugh?"
    "They call him frog," she said, "and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children's tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love." Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. "Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?"
    "No, Your Grace."
    "I feared as much." Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he's the prince, and not the one with the wide shoulders and the sandy hair.[....]

It seems to me that, as far as the expectations go, nobody expects the frog to be or become an enchanted prince.  Dany thinks of it as a joke.  Frog himself denies it.  The Ghiscari have never heard of the tale.  Thereafter, Q is called "Prince Frog" as a term of mockery.  Him dying as he (seemingly) did does not subvert any expectations.  It fulfills them.  He lived a frog; he died a frog.

If the point is merely that protagonists of their own POV chapters can die, that point has already been made multiple times in the series.  Will; Eddard; Cressen; Chet; Catelyn; Pate; Arys; Kevan; Merrit; Varamyr.  And now (maybe) Quentyn.  Did I forget someone?  A POV character dying is surely not a surprise at this point.

So what, then, was the point of Quentyn?  Don't know.  All I am saying that "to subvert expectations" makes no sense to me as an explanation.

Too late.  I've changed the avatar, and I think I like it.  Gilbert Green is now tipping his hat to you.

When you follow the POV of the "frog" that struggles to become a prince and has so many expectations on his back you do expect him to follow the hero archetype of  overcomign his struggles to rise above. It's not about suberting expectations in a gimmicky way, it's about how life works. Sometimes your life is more like a hero arc and sometimes it ends in dissapointment. 

Also your assumptions of him living ass a frog is wrong. Frog is used for his looks, not fo rwho he is as a person. WHat you expect is for a person like Quentin to succeed and be loved for more than what he looks. The looks mean nothing but like in real life we all imagine great people as beautiful. Castings in movies usualy contain more beautiful people than reality. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Dreadscythe95

[Gilbert Green]

41 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Also your assumptions of him living ass a frog is wrong.

It's a metaphor.  And it is not my metaphor either.  It's GRRM's metaphor

41 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

WHat you expect is for a person like Quentin to succeed and be loved for more than what he looks.

I never said I expected frogs to turn into enchanted princes.  I said I expect frogs to remain frogs.  All I said was, that when a frog remains a frog, it is not a surprise.  It does not "subvert expectations". 

Of course, GRRM does sometimes try to surprise his readers.  And of course, he cannot do it all the time, because if everything were a surprise, then nothing would be a surprise.  As to the point of Quentyn's subplot, I never said what I expected. 

But his dying and failing did not particularly surprise anyone.  Is there anyone on this forum who was surprised and shocked by Quentyn's (apparent) death?

Edited November 22, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Dreadscythe95]

On 11/22/2022 at 6:09 PM, Gilbert Green said:

But his dying and failing did not particularly surprise anyone.  Is there anyone on this forum who was surprised and shocked by Quentyn's (apparent) death?

Yes of course. Most people (I've seen) that read the book without being spoiled were surprised by the outcome, including me tbh.

[Gilbert Green]

18 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Yes of course. Most people (I've seen) that read the book without being spoiled were surprised by the outcome, including me tbh.

I guess I must take your word for it.  But I suspect you are stretching the meaning of "surprised" here.  I suspect the most anyone can say is that they were vaguely hoping he would succeed (because it is natural to identify with protagonists), and were a bit disappointed when he failed.

Quentyn got flamed; Jon got stabbed; Brienne got hanged; and Jaime went missing after being lured into a death trap.  Expectations, and hopes of survival, are obviously much higher for the latter 3 than for Quentyn, judging from the relatively high number of people who are convinced Quentyn is actually dead.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Dreadscythe95]

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

I suspect you are stretching the meaning of "surprised" here.  I suspect the most anyone can say is that they were vaguely hoping he would succeed (because it is natural to identify with protagonists), and were a bit disappointed when he failed.

Quentyn got flamed; Jon got stabbed; Brienne got hanged; and Jaime went missing after being lured into a death trap.  Expectations, and hopes of survival, are obviously much higher for the latter 3 than for Quentyn, judging from the relatively high number of people who are convinced Quentyn is actually dead.

Brienne was not hanged, she is facing the decision, she speaks before it happens.

Jon got stabbed but it's obviosu from the story it's not the end of his character.

Quentyn's death was surprising because yes, we all were hoping for him to succeed in some way.

[Gilbert Green]

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Brienne was not hanged, she is facing the decision, she speaks before it happens.

People expect that she will survive her hanging, because she will be cut down or let down.  Because reasons.  I'm not saying whether people are right or wrong in these expectations, I'm just saying what people expect. 

Rechecking the text, I find it does not explicitly say that her feet left the ground after the rope was yanked.  I'm not sure what difference it makes, though.  Pod's feet definitely left the ground, and people seem to think he will survive too.

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Jon got stabbed but it's obviosu from the story it's not the end of his character.

Exactly my point.  People expect Jon and Brienne to survive.  Quentyn not so much.

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Quentyn's death was surprising because yes, we all were hoping for him to succeed in some way.

And yet you easily convinced yourselves that he was dead.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  But the evidence of his death (an unrecognizable body) not airtight, any more than the evidence was airtight with Jon or Brienne.  Most people don't survive being hanged, no matter what they scream at the last minute.  Most people don't survive Caesar-style assassinations.  If more people wanted or expected Quentyn to be alive, more people would think he actually was alive.

If alot of people were truly "shocked" by Quentyn's death, more people would be in denial.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Dreadscythe95]

On 11/23/2022 at 7:05 PM, Gilbert Green said:

People expect that she will survive her hanging, because she will be cut down or let down.  Because reasons.  I'm not saying whether people are right or wrong in these expectations, I'm just saying what people expect. 

Rechecking the text, I find it does not explicitly say that her feet left the ground after the rope was yanked.  I'm not sure what difference it makes, though.  Pod's feet definitely left the ground, and people seem to think he will survive too.

Exactly my point.  People expect Jon and Brienne to survive.  Quentyn not so much.

And yet you easily convinced yourselves that he was dead.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  But the evidence of his death (an unrecognizable body) not airtight, any more than the evidence was airtight with Jon or Brienne.  Most people don't survive being hanged, no matter what they scream at the last minute.  Most people don't survive Caesar-style assassinations.  If more people wanted or expected Quentyn to be alive, more people would think he actually was alive.

If alot of people were truly "shocked" by Quentyn's death, more people would be in denial.

There are plot devices bro and also we get Quentin's death.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

There are plot devices bro and also we get Quentin's death.

"Plot devices" are just your way of saying that you don't expect them to be dead.  But I said that already.

With Quentyn, we got a burnt body dying on a bed.  You expect Quentyn to be dead, so you call that body "Quentyn".  If you expected him to be alive, you would probably call that body a "plot device".

[Dreadscythe95]

On 11/26/2022 at 8:31 PM, Gilbert Green said:

"Plot devices" are just your way of saying that you don't expect them to be dead.  But I said that already.

With Quentyn, we got a burnt body dying on a bed.  You expect Quentyn to be dead, so you call that body "Quentyn".  If you expected him to be alive, you would probably call that body a "plot device".

Ok this is exaggeration at this point. You just contradict for the sake of the action bro.

[Gilbert Green]

3 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Ok this is exaggeration at this point. You just contradict for the sake of the action bro.

Ironic.  I don't see why we can't happily agree that you expect Quentyn to be dead, and expect Jon Snow and Brienne to be alive.  It's obviously your stance.  But you seem to want to contradict for the sake of ... something or other.