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Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

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11 minutes ago, Mordred said:

But to betray the family to an obviously untrustworthy person as Cersei was a very selfish act.  

Oh, so do you include Ned as well in your judgement? Like you know.. when he told her about his knowledge of the incest?

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13 minutes ago, Mordred said:

But to betray the family to an obviously untrustworthy person as Cersei was a very selfish act.  I don't think the average teenager is that selfish.  I don't know and have never been around a teenager who would risk her family's safety like that. 

As I said before she didn't think she would risk her family's safety. She didn't know about the reasons her father wanted them to leave he didn't tell her. call her stupid for that I don't care. But there is a big difference between killing a pet, because the crown prince was hurt or killing a noble family. She didn't know that would happen. She didn't know about the incest. She didn't know what was at stake.

Even Ned with so much more knowledge about the situation did trust cersei far to much and just told her about his knowledge. How can you blame Sansa than for trusting her with her very limited knowledge in general? 

Even when Joffrey told Sansa he would show mercy towards her father she still did believe it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Mordred said:

I feel sorry for the parents of children who would go behind their back over a boyfriend.  That is not betrayal.  I can understand a daughter sneaking out at night to spend time with her boyfriend and even have sex.  But to betray the family to an obviously untrustworthy person as Cersei was a very selfish act.  I don't think the average teenager is that selfish.  I don't know and have never been around a teenager who would risk her family's safety like that.  Pity the parents who do.  I'm not saying they don't exists but I would look on such a person with contempt should I ever meet one.  They exists but hopefully in small numbers.  In this day and age of first world kids who feel entitled and feel they shouldn't be held accountable for anything.  I would not be shocked.  I would hold a negative opinion of those who are like Sansa. 

Firstly, Sansa is 11, not a teenage age, really.

Second, kids are no more or no less entitled today than generations before. Don't worry, I can back this up - you can't.

Edited by Lady Winter Rose

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8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Maybe Ned is not there at the Trident, but he heard Robert complain about his son, maybe he should have thought of sitting down with Joff after that- pay attention to him, have a conversation with him. And imo the real warning sign was Joff threatening Arya with his sword and Ned must have known about that, why else would her direwolf would have attacked him. And Sansa must have told him as well otherwise he wouldn't have asked her to tell what happened before Robert. And later Arya also told Ned that he attacked the butcher' s boy- so that should have been warning sign enough for him imo. Maybe he shouldn't have written that of a child's play either. An adult should not need as many waring signs as child

I think we've already covered most of this. Maybe he should have done lots of things & maybe so should have Sansa. I think we can agree they both made mistakes. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

just feel like you let Ned here of the hook a lot: he was compassionate, he didn't know of the warning signs, he couldn't refuse his King, while you don't grant Sansa the same lenient

I'm not trying to let Ned off the hook or keep Sansa on it. I was just saying there in these particular cases Sansa was in a position to see the signs more clearly than Ned. She spent more time with Joffrey. He was being compassionate to Cersei & he couldn't refuse the king. 

I haven't once said Sansa is to blame for anything other than her own actions. I didn't say Sansa should be blamed for not seeing or telling the warning signs - only that she didn't. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure, she should have seen the warning signs, but she couldn't  because of her age and her "fairytale world" her limited knowledge of the world in general. She "saw" them, but they didn't fit into her concept of everything -so she explained them away

Yes. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I think Ned first and foremost didn't tell Cat about Jon to honor his promise to Lyanna and I've seen other ppl share that opinion

That's hard to say when we don't know the promise. For instance if the promise was to keep Jon safe Ned is keeping Jon safe to honor that promise but he is not telling Cat to keep her & the other children safe. I can't think of a promise he gave that would mean he cannot tell Cat & still uphold said promise unless she specifically asked him to promise not to tell anyone - which is possible but seems a waste of a dying promise when if Ned was told of his parentage, not telling anyone would be a given IMO. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

She did and so did Arya. Even Robert complained about Joffrey. And he already knew what kind of person Cersei was. That should have been enough

Yeah Arya saw them & told, Sansa told a different story. Robert complained about Joffrey & that should probably been a warning sign to Ned but it is one sign. I'm not sure how much he knew about Cersei other than she was prickly & he didn't particularly care for her but I disagree that Cersei's character should have been a warning sign to Ned in regards to Joff. Children are not their parents. There are plenty of rotten kids that have come from great parents & vice versa. 

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But we seldom ever read "But Sansa didn't turn out to be a mass-murder, even though she had the same parents", do we?

I don't know what you seldom ever read but I've seen Arya criticized to no end. 

I would most certainly use that very argument in a thread regarding Arya's transgressions if someone suggested it was all due to the way she was raised. 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And if we do it's usually in response to "Ayra is so loyal and would never be selfish and stupid like Sansa". In that regard there is never the comparison drawn between them

Again, I've seen very different than you I guess. At any rate I didn't do this so how is this relevant to my comparison of Arya & Sansa? 

8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Because most ppl empathize with Ayra and excuse more horrible crimes, while they don't do the same thing for Sansa

I'm not sure that's true but at any rate I haven't done this. I empathize with both girls & don't see how what most people may or may not do pertains to me in this conversation. 

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Is it Sansa's fault she was groomed since coming out of the womb? Is it Sansa's fault she was raised on fairytales? Is it Sansa's fault that her parents never taught her about the ugly reality of the world? Is it Sansa's fault that no one prepared her for the reality of the South? Is it Sansa's fault that she was betrothed to Joffrey? Is it Sansa's fault her parents used her to investigate the murder of Ned's father figure? Is it Sansa's fault that Ned neglected to assign guards his daughters? Is it Sansa's fault that Ned never talks to her and just expects her to be an obedient girl? Is it Sansa's fault Ned kept her completely in the dark about what was happening? The answer to all of these questions is NO.

Seriously the main fault in all of this lies with her parents, especially Ned. If Ned had assigned someone to watch his children both the Micah incident and them scattering in KL could have been avoided. Don't employ a single alcoholic to do this duty (Septa). Heck considering that the societal grooming had worked so well on Sansa, telling her that Joffrey was an inbred bastard would have killed Sansa's interest in an instant. Don't let one of your daughters constantly do whatever she wants (which involves breaking societal norms for Ladies), eventually the obedient one will have enough and want to misbehave. That was what Sansa was thinking of when going to Cersei. It's not like she knew what Ned was doing or what was going on. How do people constantly forget that? You can't make an informed decision when you have no knowledge of what's happening. And even then, expecting an 11 year old to act like a smart adult if they had all the info, seems like insane standards. Who is so stupid that they go to Cersei and set off a bomb before they get their children out of the blast zone FIRST?

The vitriol thrown at an 11 year old girl never ceases to amaze me. People are fans of Ned and Rob, men who have caused the deaths of thousands with their stupidity. And those men are defended and adored by readers. Sansa running to Cersei was a girl seeing her fairytale slip through her fingers. Deluded on her end sure (considering the Lannisters had already exposed themselves as psychos) but she didn't raise herself, her parents did. Parental failure on all accounts.

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12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think we've already covered most of this. Maybe he should have done lots of things & maybe so should have Sansa. I think we can agree they both made mistakes. 

I'm not trying to let Ned off the hook or keep Sansa on it. I was just saying there in these particular cases Sansa was in a position to see the signs more clearly than Ned. She spent more time with Joffrey. He was being compassionate to Cersei & he couldn't refuse the king. 

I haven't once said Sansa is to blame for anything other than her own actions. I didn't say Sansa should be blamed for not seeing or telling the warning signs - only that she didn't. 

Yes. 

That's hard to say when we don't know the promise. For instance if the promise was to keep Jon safe Ned is keeping Jon safe to honor that promise but he is not telling Cat to keep her & the other children safe. I can't think of a promise he gave that would mean he cannot tell Cat & still uphold said promise unless she specifically asked him to promise not to tell anyone - which is possible but seems a waste of a dying promise when if Ned was told of his parentage, not telling anyone would be a given IMO. 

Yeah Arya saw them & told, Sansa told a different story. Robert complained about Joffrey & that should probably been a warning sign to Ned but it is one sign. I'm not sure how much he knew about Cersei other than she was prickly & he didn't particularly care for her but I disagree that Cersei's character should have been a warning sign to Ned in regards to Joff. Children are not their parents. There are plenty of rotten kids that have come from great parents & vice versa. 

I don't know what you seldom ever read but I've seen Arya criticized to no end. 

I would most certainly use that very argument in a thread regarding Arya's transgressions if someone suggested it was all due to the way she was raised. 

Again, I've seen very different than you I guess. At any rate I didn't do this so how is this relevant to my comparison of Arya & Sansa? 

I'm not sure that's true but at any rate I haven't done this. I empathize with both girls & don't see how what most people may or may not do pertains to me in this conversation. 

I thought about it and I think you are right. Arya did start to suddenly get a lot of criticism/hate as well. And I also didn't want to accuse you of doing that. That came across wrong! And reading back my posts they do sound a bit harsh and I did certainly not intend that! I apologize.

I guess when I first started reading fans' opinions a couple of years ago there was just A LOT of intense Sansa hate (and in some places on the internet, that's still the case; but actually here not that much anymore :) ), while most ppl seemed to love Arya unconditionally (I do as well)

But it is true, it seems to have shifted (at least here) quite a bit over the years and now characters, who initial were strong fan favorites get also a lot of criticism/hate.

I feel like the biggest "issue" in our disagreement might have been our different understanding of the word loyal. Maybe it is a language thing- I don't know? But I feel like in my native language being disloyal is just a really, really bad thing (fellow germans might disagree, I don't know?) almost equal to betrayal - and that was obviously not what you had in mind. With the Robert-Ned example I do understand it now :) 

I do actually love the Starks (I include Jon- always :) ) and yeah mostly tend to let them off the hook (and children in general unless they've done something truly horrible. I even don't hate Joffrey quite as much as others do, which is weird since I like Sansa so much) for precisely the same reasons you do. They never really had bad intentions or wanted to hurt ppl. Imo they aren't cruel by nature and their weaknesses make them even more interesting to me, because it makes them real and human. And often they have kind of endearing and relatable weaknesses imo :) .

I guess I had to many discussions with ppl, in who's opinion Sansa is just a stupid superficial doll, that "just doesn't care about her family" so the word "disloyal" really ticked me off. I apologize. 

I actually don't what to criticize Ned at all (don't think he ever did anything with bad intentions; just when you (don't mean you specifically) criticize Sansa you've got to criticize him as well- that's just my opinion) and I've become also way more understanding of Robb, than I was initially (Kind of couldn't forgive, he didn't try to get Sansa and Arya back. I didn't hate him for it, but became a bit indifferent to him for a while), I never criticize Arya, even though she has become a little mass murderer, I'm rooting for her, I worry for her, and only want the best and happiness for her and even though most ppl seem to think that won't happen for her, I'm still holding on to my belief that it will. I also like and empathize with Cat. To her I apply the same logic I do to Ned and Robb- she is woman of her time. She is definitely quite different from me so it's sometimes hard to connect with her, but I've known women like her so I feel like she is very realistic. But tbh honest her weird relationship with Robb, since he is King just freaks me out. It just feels so wrong- Mamas should always stay the boss of their children :laugh: 

Since I only recently started to read asoiaf posts again after I hadn't done it for a couple of years, I was really shocked to read so much critique/ hate of Jon-  imo for very weird reasons. And I haven't even read that much about Jon yet. In my memory he always was an absolute fan favorite, but I might be mistaken. I feel like Jon is the most honorable out of all of them. Maybe even out of the whole series( there are a couple others as well, of course) and he is undoubtedly a very good person. There is just the baby thing. When I read about it for the first time from Gilly's and Sam's perspective, I was absolutely shocked- how in the world could he be so cruel? But than I read it from his perspective and he really seems to think he can keep monster alive. In general I absolutely love Jon and his chapters in ADWD -just finished a reread :). Before that I had some difficulties connecting with him, but in ADWD I absolutely do. I felt so bad for him for all the bs he had to deal with and all the pressure and really admire his morality under those circumstances and his willingness to do his duty and be a good LC, while not finding joy in it. 

And yeah I do like Sansa. A LOT. haha how did you notice? And I do have to remind myself not to be to biased towards her. I think she is just amazingly written and I'm so in awe of GRRM for pulling that off as a middle aged man. I keep asking myself, how does he know all that stuff? :laugh: The annoying thing about really liking Sansa ( And I guess it is the same thing with other characters as well), is that I as someone, who is naturally really interested in her, would really like to discuss her weaknesses, her not so great behavior (and the reasons  for it) and her not so great character traits. But I feel like the moment I would put up a question like "How come she acts here so selfish (mostly with her sister and family) while she has shown great selflessness in other situations? Why does she take the Hound so seriously, lets him walk all over her, while being snobbish towards Mycah? etc. etc." someone answers "because she is always selfish and superficial", then I feel inclined to defend her and we go through the whole Spiel of how she betrayed her family again :laugh:

I feel like I owe it to my favorite character to defend her, because she has gotten so much hate over the years and imo this defense is important, because the harsh criticism she gets/got is reflective of society's attitude towards teenage girls like her and teenage girls in general. They are often treated so dismissively and condescendingly imo. Not taken seriously. How often do you hear the phrase "bla bla...like a thirteen year old girl." Maybe teenage boys are treated just as harshly and I just don't see it. I still remember how Steven King was so condescending towards twilight. And I just thought of course you don't understand, you are a middle-aged man, it's not written for you. I really loved twilight and Justin Bieber when I was twelve. And then I turned thirteen :). It's just a phase in your development. But yeah, maybe I'm wrong about it, maybe, it's just my impression- I dunno. 

And maybe I should just get a bit more a thicker skin and stop defending for a while and ask the questions, that really interest me like "Could Sansa's single-mindedness and selfishness in KL also be clue/sign, that she has it in her break free from her shell of obedience and go single-mindedly after something else what she wants, despite fear and her bad experiences? And hopefully this time it will be something good, like crossing LF :) 

 

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 3:08 PM, Lluewhyn said:

Without Sansa's life at risk, it's much less likely that Ned folds to Varys's pressure to confess and join the Black. That is explicitly the reason Ned eventually acquiesces, and it's uncertain about whether Varys could/would successfully lie to Ned about Sansa being captured (he's essentially lying to Ned about Sansa's risk of death, but he doesn't lie about Arya for whatever reason, maybe to avoid showing his true colors to the reader). It's only a short while later that Jaime is captured, and Ned goes from a "Hostage too valuable to execute" to "Holy crap, we need to keep this hostage alive for an exchange". Without Ned up there on stage confessing, there's less of an opportunity for Joffrey to play to the crowd (or be manipulated into it by Littlefinger, if you believe that theory), and significantly more ability for Cersei, Varys, etc. to circumvent a Joffrey order for his death.

If Sansa and Arya escape on a ship, they are returning to Winterfell. Whether they are there or not for Theon's capture (or have any ability to change events there) depends upon a lot of factors, especially whether they are then further betrothed to solidify war alliances.

 

That is an interesting aspect. It points into two different directions though, concerning the probability of Ned's death:

1)  A less valuable hostage would have been even easier executed (less effort from Cersei/Littlefinge/Varys to save Ned's life)

=> higher probability that Ned would have lost his life anyway

2) Less show effect for Jeoffrey

=> lower probability that Ned would have lost his life.

Regarding Jeoffrey's ruthlessness and poltitcal stupidity, I tend to assume, Jeoffrey would have decided to kill Ned anyway. I think the show effect would have been there anyway from his point of view. He mainly wanted to appear strong and the pleadings and warnings from Sansa and Cersei just angered him, as the thought women's advice to be weak and not fit for a king.

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:06 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa and Arya would have not escaped. Robert would still have died, the golden cloak would still have betrayed Ned and Cersei would have still send in men to capture both Sansa and Arya. The only difference is that Sansa would have seen the deaths of Ned's guards, Vayon Poole, and Septa Mordane. Sansa's action didn't have any affect. However what she did was wrong. 

 

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 3:55 PM, Springwatch said:

Not possible. The times are all wrong.

The Wind Witch was going to leave on the evening tide, and Robert died just one hour after Sansa walked out of the Stark breakfast.

It's not possible that the Stark girls could have been overlooked for all that time. And in fact the Kingsguard came to snatch Arya from her fencing lesson, not from the Wind Witch.

Cersei had no time to change her plans, and didn't need to.

I tend to disagree. There has been a conversation between Tyrion and Cersei (I believe in book 2) when Tyrion returned to KL being acting Hand of the King named by Tywin. There Cersei confesses to Tyrion, that Sansa's information on Ned's plans was crucial to her to act fast. Cersei said something like "It was a close thing anyway and without Sansa…..". That is also how Tyrion learned about Sansa's betrayal (I think he called it like that). And Tyrion's thoughts go bakc to Sansa's betrayal later when he is married to Sansa (I do not recall the precise book or phrase).

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A lot of comments turn around the question, if Sansa was aware of the possible consequences of spilling confidential information to Cersei (=> betrayal) or not (=> illoyal behaviour). One poster mentioned  this passage form Sansa chapter (N°51) in AGOT:

"She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordana defying her lord Father. She had never done anything so willful before and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. […] The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had Always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly…"

Sansa is surely not aware of the consequences in detail, but she is very well aware that this act meant a very grave disobedience towards her father, hoping she could influence the King (or the queen in the end) to command Ned to act the way, Sansa wanted it. I call that betrayal, especially in the view of the strict obedience that (in the ASOIAF world) anyone (especially Children) had to show towards their parents (and in this case towards a Lord). Calling Sansa naive is in my view inappropriate, as she has a clear idea of how to manipulate a political situation to her favour including the King and against her Father.

I find it very curious that she never ever thinks back (as far as I remember) to her betrayal later on in the story, when she matures under Littlefinger.

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On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 6:24 AM, Nevets said:

Sansa's loyal to the Starks.  Her betrayal to Cersei was negligent, not an act of deliberate harm, and the result of not knowing all the facts or the stakes involved.  She certainly had no intent to cause harm to anyone.

By the way, it is unlikely they would have made it to Winterfell had they gotten away from Kings Landing.  Ned gave his captain a letter for Stannis, which would have necessitated a visit to Dragonstone.  Ships stopping at Dragonstone were not allowed to leave, however, so they would have been stuck, at least until Stannis's attack on Renly.  I think Theon had taken Winterfell by then, or was close to doing so.

Good point. But also in that case, they wouldn't have been hostages of the Lannisters.

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9 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Calling Sansa naive is in my view inappropriate, as she has a clear idea of how to manipulate a political situation to her favour including the King and against her Father.

You have a quote for that please?

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2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You have a quote for that please?

See my post above (#89). I cannot call Sansa naive when she is capable to develop a ploy knowingly against her Father, involving the king.

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44 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

See my post above (#89). I cannot call Sansa naive when she is capable to develop a ploy knowingly against her Father, involving the king.

thank you. I think most ppl just call her naive in regards to the outcome of her telling Cersei. Sure she is not stupid and well educated about all things court. She can list all the houses and their members and has detailed knowledge of their histories. So to figure out that the king is the one, who holds the actual power over Ned, does imo not need a genius at all. I feel like that is "basic noble kids knowledge". But of course she couldn't go to the king herself. But sure her actions were self-centered and she did it for the one purpose to be able to stay in KL, so she wouldn't have done something, that she didn't think would have that effect. She just was blind to the reality of the dangers and brutalities of this world. You know "True knights protect the weak." She even still believes Joff will show mercy to Ned, when he promises he will. Because anything different doesn't fit into her concept of the world. She is a child and a dreamer, who's view of the world is largely influenced by her experience up until now and her big imagination.  But I have written about that in a detailed way in basically all of my posts in this thread already, especially in my first one. But I actually never called her naive :) at least I don't think I did. 

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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On 8. November 2019 at 11:35 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

When Sansa told Cersei in the first book about Ned's plan to ship his daughters to Winterfell (which I call a betrayal), well, it made her the most hated Stark for many readers. But what exactly have been the consequences of this behaviour? Or in other words, what would have happened, hadn't she told Cersei?

In my view it would have put Sansa and Arya to safety (so of course their course in the story would have been completely different. 

Questionable if it had put them to safety in the end. Robb and Cat are dead and Theon has been tortured. There is a war going on as well.

What makes the most "hated Stark" depends on what actions weigh the heaviest for you personally. If it is disobedience towards you father, than maybe you like sansa the least. But Arya was disobedient towards her parents often as well, it just didn't have the same consequences, but Sansa didn't know of the consequences. 

For me personally not getting your sisters back even, if you have the means to, and the cumulation of all the things Ned did and didn't do weigh way heavier.(Especially because Robb knew of the consequences of his actions and Ned should have known because of his experiences and knowledge of the world) and also taking away a baby from a mother, who was willing to get through a lot of danger and pain to save said baby in the first place- now it was just taken away and she isn't sure it will survive.

By your logic I'll call Robb not trying everything to get Sansa and Arya back betrayal towards them as well (especially because he knew it could likely cause their deaths), and Ned telling Cersei about his knowledge of the incest and telling her he would tell Robert, but than NOT telling Robert, all before he got his children out of KL. 

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9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Questionable if it had put them to safety in the end. Robb and Cat are dead and Theon has been tortured. There is a war going on as well.

What makes the most "hated Stark" depends on what actions weigh the heaviest for you personally. If it is disobedience towards you father, than maybe you like sansa the least. But Arya was disobedient towards her parents often as well, it just didn't have the same consequences, but Sansa didn't know of the consequences. 

For me personally not getting your sisters back even, if you have the means to, and the cumulation of all the things Ned did and didn't do weigh way heavier.(Especially because Robb knew of the consequences of his actions and Ned should have known because of his experiences and knowledge of the world) and also taking away a baby from a mother, who was willing to get through a lot of danger and pain to save said baby in the first place- now it was just taken away and she isn't sure it will survive.

By your logic I'll call Robb not trying everything to get Sansa and Arya back betrayal towards them as well (especially because he knew it could likely cause their deaths), and Ned telling Cersei about his knowledge of the incest and telling her he would tell Robert, but than NOT telling Robert, all before he got his children out of KL. 

You make some good points, in my view. My post though was not about judging if Sansa's mistakes were the only ones or the worst ones within the Stark family. I thought about the consequences of Sansa providing Cersei with crucial information on Ned's fate and on Robb's war. And there I have some questions whether it really changed the course of things or not.

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3 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

You make some good points, in my view. My post though was not about judging if Sansa's mistakes were the only ones or the worst ones within the Stark family. I thought about the consequences of Sansa providing Cersei with crucial information on Ned's fate and on Robb's war. And there I have some questions whether it really changed the course of things or not.

Yeah, I was just responding to the label "the most hated Stark" and you labeling her actions "betrayal" - even if you didn't specifically ask for my comment on that, I just felt inclined to give it :) 

I personally don't even call Ned's or Robb's actions betrayals at all. But for me betrayal is something extremely extremely negative.

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9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I thought about it and I think you are right. Arya did start to suddenly get a lot of criticism/hate as well. And I also didn't want to accuse you of doing that. That came across wrong! And reading back my posts they do sound a bit harsh and I did certainly not intend that! I apologize.

No worries! :) I completely understand. 

 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I guess when I first started reading fans' opinions a couple of years ago there was just A LOT of intense Sansa hate (and in some places on the internet, that's still the case; but actually here not that much anymore :) ), while most ppl seemed to love Arya unconditionally (I do as well)

I remember this too. When I first came to the forums a few years ago Sansa was like the most hated. Then I took a break & started coming back & somehow or another it has changed to Arya & Jon being hated. Probably Jon worse than Arya. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I feel like the biggest "issue" in our disagreement might have been our different understanding of the word loyal. Maybe it is a language thing- I don't know? But I feel like in my native language being disloyal is just a really, really bad thing (fellow germans might disagree, I don't know?) almost equal to betrayal - and that was obviously not what you had in mind. With the Robert-Ned example I do understand it now :) 

I agree! I think we mostly agree on everything else we were just stuck on that word "disloyal" & what it means to us. It may be a language thing (I would never have known English wasn't your first language btw - I always admire people who can master two or more languages, especially when one of them is English because it is my first language & it still confuses me sometimes!) It could be also that I was just using the wrong word to describe what I was trying to say, but yeah I definitely don't think she betrayed anyone & completely understand why you would be prickly about someone saying she did. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I do actually love the Starks (I include Jon- always :) ) and yeah mostly tend to let them off the hook (and children in general unless they've done something truly horrible. I even don't hate Joffrey quite as much as others do, which is weird since I like Sansa so much) for precisely the same reasons you do. They never really had bad intentions or wanted to hurt ppl. Imo they aren't cruel by nature and their weaknesses make them even more interesting to me, because it makes them real and human. And often they have kind of endearing and relatable weaknesses imo :) .

Me too! The Starks are my favorite & it is beyond frustrating to hear all the blind hatred toward them. It's like those people didn't read the same books or something - not because the Starks aren't their favorite - but because it's like no matter what they did, or what their reasons were these people consider it the most evil thing ever. They are real & human & face real, human difficulties & I would imagine most of the people screaming that Sansa was the demise of the family or that Jon is evil reincarnate for messing with poor Ramsay are either just trying to get a rise out of someone or else they have a very difficult time putting their self in someone elses shoes. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I guess I had to many discussions with ppl, in who's opinion Sansa is just a stupid superficial doll, that "just doesn't care about her family" so the word "disloyal" really ticked me off. I apologize. 

I totally get it, I see it to & it sucks. No worries :) I apologize for anything I said to lead you to believe I was a blind Sansa hater also, because they are definitely out there. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I actually don't what to criticize Ned at all (don't think he ever did anything with bad intentions; just when you (don't mean you specifically) criticize Sansa you've got to criticize him as well- that's just my opinion) and I've become also way more understanding of Robb, than I was initially (Kind of couldn't forgive, he didn't try to get Sansa and Arya back. I didn't hate him for it, but became a bit indifferent to him for a while), I never criticize Arya, even though she has become a little mass murderer, I'm rooting for her, I worry for her, and only want the best and happiness for her and even though most ppl seem to think that won't happen for her, I'm still holding on to my belief that it will. I also like and empathize with Cat. To her I apply the same logic I do to Ned and Robb- she is woman of her time. She is definitely quite different from me so it's sometimes hard to connect with her, but I've known women like her so I feel like she is very realistic. But tbh honest her weird relationship with Robb, since he is King just freaks me out. It just feels so wrong- Mamas should always stay the boss of their children :laugh:

Oh I agree. It's crazy how real these people become in your mind. On my first read I was so angry with Sansa for the whole Lady incident, my second read I paid more attention & tried to put myself in her shoes & realized I wasn't actually angry with her at all but angry at the situation. I root for Arya too & worry for her. One part of me wants her to wipe the murderous Frey's off the face of the earth but the other part of me doesn't want her to ruin her already damaged psyche any further. I want her to heal & be happy. My heart aches for Cat. Her relationship with King Robb reminds me a little of my eldest son who has recently come of age & moved out on his own. Not a King for sure LOL but becoming his own boss is a hard thing for us mothers to cope with I think & a part of us will always be their boss because they will always be our babies. I've struggled with learning to give him advice but to ultimately let him decide on his own & thankfully he has been very patient with me in this regard :) 

 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Since I only recently started to read asoiaf posts again after I hadn't done it for a couple of years, I was really shocked to read so much critique/ hate of Jon-  imo for very weird reasons. And I haven't even read that much about Jon yet. In my memory he always was an absolute fan favorite, but I might be mistaken. I feel like Jon is the most honorable out of all of them. Maybe even out of the whole series( there are a couple others as well, of course) and he is undoubtedly a very good person. There is just the baby thing. When I read about it for the first time from Gilly's and Sam's perspective, I was absolutely shocked- how in the world could he be so cruel? But than I read it from his perspective and he really seems to think he can keep monster alive. In general I absolutely love Jon and his chapters in ADWD -just finished a reread :). Before that I had some difficulties connecting with him, but in ADWD I absolutely do. I felt so bad for him for all the bs he had to deal with and all the pressure and really admire his morality under those circumstances and his willingness to do his duty and be a good LC, while not finding joy in it. 

Yeah it's a little unreal honestly & the worst thing he did (IMO) was the switch of the babies & that is not near what they hate on him the most for. This is another time I was angry with a character but after re-reading it came to terms with the fact that he was trying to save the baby. My heart just still hurts for Gilly though. She has been through so much & fought hard to keep her baby alive & now she isn't with him. It stinks. 

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And yeah I do like Sansa. A LOT. haha how did you notice? And I do have to remind myself not to be to biased towards her. I think she is just amazingly written and I'm so in awe of GRRM for pulling that off as a middle aged man. I keep asking myself, how does he know all that stuff? :laugh: The annoying thing about really liking Sansa ( And I guess it is the same thing with other characters as well), is that I as someone, who is naturally really interested in her, would really like to discuss her weaknesses, her not so great behavior (and the reasons  for it) and her not so great character traits. But I feel like the moment I would put up a question like "How come she acts here so selfish (mostly with her sister and family) while she has shown great selflessness in other situations? Why does she take the Hound so seriously, lets him walk all over her, while being snobbish towards Mycah? etc. etc." someone answers "because she is always selfish and superficial", then I feel inclined to defend her and we go through the whole Spiel of how she betrayed her family again :laugh:

Haha! It's so funny that you bring that up because I was just thinking last night how nice it would be to be able to have a real discussion in regards to Jon & his decisions. But I only ever end up with "JoN Is TrAitOr, PoOr RaMsaY" & it's hard to discuss things like that lol 

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I feel like I owe it to my favorite character to defend her, because she has gotten so much hate over the years and imo this defense is important, because the harsh criticism she gets/got is reflective of society's attitude towards teenage girls like her and teenage girls in general. They are often treated so dismissively and condescendingly imo. Not taken seriously. How often do you hear the phrase "bla bla...like a thirteen year old girl." Maybe teenage boys are treated just as harshly and I just don't see it. I still remember how Steven King was so condescending towards twilight. And I just thought of course you don't understand, you are a middle-aged man, it's not written for you. I really loved twilight and Justin Bieber when I was twelve. And then I turned thirteen :). It's just a phase in your development. But yeah, maybe I'm wrong about it, maybe, it's just my impression- I dunno. 

I agree & as a mother of a teenage daughter & teenage sons, I don't think society is as hard on boys as girls. My daughter has faced trials & tribulations that my sons would never have dreamed of having to face. In a way they just have a simpler life. Not that they don't face their own trials, they just don't seem to get driticized the way teenage girls do. I read twilight as a a 20 something year old & LOVED it. The movies dampened my enthusiasm a little because that Edward was NOT my Edward & especiallly the first movie just wasn't done real well. I have also been known to sing along with the Bieb even now & I'm 39. 

10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And maybe I should just get a bit more a thicker skin and stop defending for a while and ask the questions, that really interest me like "Could Sansa's single-mindedness and selfishness in KL also be clue/sign, that she has it in her break free from her shell of obedience and go single-mindedly after something else what she wants, despite fear and her bad experiences? And hopefully this time it will be something good, like crossing LF :) 

Maybe! I can tell you this forum has thickened up my skin over the years because when I first returned & seen all the hatred toward Jon I was heartbroken! I could not comprehend how, someone I viewed as a very good person, could be seen as so bad but so many others - but that is something I would like to delve into & discuss, like you would with Sansa. Maybe we should start our own threads :)

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6 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

A lot of comments turn around the question, if Sansa was aware of the possible consequences of spilling confidential information to Cersei (=> betrayal) or not (=> illoyal behaviour). One poster mentioned  this passage form Sansa chapter (N°51) in AGOT:

"She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordana defying her lord Father. She had never done anything so willful before and she would never have done it then if she hadn't loved Joffrey as much as she did. […] The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had Always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly…"

Sansa is surely not aware of the consequences in detail, but she is very well aware that this act meant a very grave disobedience towards her father, hoping she could influence the King (or the queen in the end) to command Ned to act the way, Sansa wanted it. I call that betrayal, especially in the view of the strict obedience that (in the ASOIAF world) anyone (especially Children) had to show towards their parents (and in this case towards a Lord). Calling Sansa naive is in my view inappropriate, as she has a clear idea of how to manipulate a political situation to her favour including the King and against her Father.

I find it very curious that she never ever thinks back (as far as I remember) to her betrayal later on in the story, when she matures under Littlefinger.

I don't think I would use the words "very grave disobedience" she likens what she is doing to how Arya behaves. Arya is mischievious & frequently does things she probably shouldn't according to her parents but nothing that has been considered a "betrayal". Sansa is aware she is defying her father & she knows she is doing it to get what she wants but she doesn't view it as a "grave disobedience" she views it as a mischievious act that reminds her of things Arya has done. 

I think calling Sansa naive is typically referring more to her total character rather than her mind in this act. She is aware of what she is doing but she has absolutely no notion that Cersei will hold them captive & eventually Joff will behead her father. There is no harm intended to her family. She only wants to stay in KL & stay betrothed to Joffrey. 

Because there is typically such a strict obedience in asoiaf world Sansa almost always obeys. She says herself she has never done anything this willful before. So, I have a hard time calling her ONE act of disobedience toward her father, at the ripe age of 11, treachery & betrayal. 

She probably never thinks back to the incident for a couple of reasons - first & foremost she has alot going on & is trying to survive. Secondly, she probably doesn't view it as betrayal. I seldom think back to the things I did to defy my parents at 11, if ever. 

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On 11/10/2019 at 1:33 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

And throughout the novel Ned actually states a lot how he mistrusts basically almost every important figure in KL, so he knows they are untrustworthy. Still his behavior very often just doesn't reflect it. Dunno why. His honor taking over? 

Because Ned himself is not untrustworthy at heart. There's a difference between "knowing" people are not to be trusted and "acting" cautiously. If you are at heart a trusting person with no natural tendency to be untrustwrothy yourself, it takes conscious effort to behave differently all the time to everyone. And you cannot expect a person to behave that consciously against their very own nature on every subject to everyone all the time.

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