Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

CORRECTED

Well, Ned does a few sleight of hands and cover up: Jon's identity, editing Robert's will, promising Robert to take care of his children while in his mind thinking of Robert's bastards, keeping the info in Lysa's letter about Jon Arryn to himself. So, he can deceive when he puts his mind to it and finds it warranted.  

[Mystical]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I personally don't even call Ned's or Robb's actions betrayals at all. But for me betrayal is something extremely extremely negative.

Betrayal to me is a deliberate decision from a fully informed individual, knowing that it will lead to disaster for theri family, people they care about, soldiers under their command and so forth. So by that definition, what Sansa did was not a betrayal. It was as some have said, disobedience.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because Ned himself is not untrustworthy at heart. There's a difference between "knowing" people are not to be trusted and "acting" cautiously. If you are at heart a trusting person with no natural tendency to be untrustwrothy yourself, it takes conscious effort to behave differently all the time to everyone. And you cannot expect a person to behave that consciously against their very own nature on every subject to everyone all the time.

 

Just now, Lady Winter Rose said:

CORRECTED

Yes, I actually understand Ned. And I don't blame him for his nature or his actions. I only think he is more to blame than Sansa. And I only bring it up, when ppl expect of Sansa to go against her nature, but do not of Ned (even though he is older with more experience and imo he should have prepared Sansa and Ayra better for KL). But I'm not excusing that she was selfish, because she definitely was.

But I understand him. It can be very hard to constantly have to go against your nature. I just talk about it in comparison with Sansa. I don't think, it's fair, that Sansa often gets judged very harshly, while Ned's behavior gets not examined at all or excused. (not saying that you guys are doing that) And also might have changed now- I dunno- I've been away from the fan posts for a couple of years, but I definitely think that is still the case, when it comes to places like yt.

[Nagini's Neville]

8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Betrayal to me is a deliberate decision from a fully informed individual, knowing that it will lead to disaster for theri family, people they care about, soldiers under their command and so forth. So by that definition, what Sansa did was not a betrayal. It was as some have said, disobedience.

thanks  I guess that's better than "really, really bad" Exactly, there is actually a word for it: disobedience  I'm content with that.

[Mystical]

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't think, it's fair, that Sansa often gets judged very harshly, while Ned's behavior gets not examined at all or excused.

It's par for the course. Female characters (and even girls/women in real life) get judged way more harshly than male ones. And while some of the wrong decisions made by male characters is discussed, it's not nearly to the amount people discuss a female character's decisions and attitude and so on. Disagreements on male characters rarely get as ugly and toxic as the female ones. And the vitriol that gets thrown around between stans of female characters (rarely ever does this happen with male ones), who are largely female, is bonkers.

And there are people out there who actually think the Western World has conquered and overcome patriarchy and internalized misogyny. Ha.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

It's par for the course. Female characters (and even girls/women in real life) get judged way more harshly than male ones. And while some of the wrong decisions made by male characters is discussed, it's not nearly to the amount people discuss a female character's decisions and attitude and so on. And disagreements on male characters rarely get as ugly and toxic as the female ones. And the vitriol that gets thrown around between stans of female characters (rarely ever does this happen with male ones), largely by females, is bonkers.

And there are people out there who actually think the Western World has conquered and overcome patriarchy and internalized misogyny. Ha.

Yes thank you!! You said it perfectly! And I really think we should keep addressing it and "forcing" ppl to apply the same standards, logic and judgements. And also not judge the women as modern day women, but not the men. Because this attitude is reflective of our society imo. Where ever that might be since we all come from different countries. It is probably still a long way to go, but it's worth it imo!  

Honestly my biggest hope would be that Arya Sansa and Dany just would become the best of friends- it would just be so amazing. Don't need any couple. That would just be the best and Brienne should join as well  

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 

Yes, I actually understand Ned. And I don't blame him for his nature or his actions. I only think he is more to blame than Sansa. And I only bring it up, when ppl expect of Sansa to go against her nature, but do not of Ned (even though he is older with more experience and imo he should have prepared Sansa and Ayra better for KL). But I'm not excusing that she was selfish, because she definitely was.

But I understand him. It can be very hard to constantly have to go against your nature. I just talk about it in comparison with Sansa. I don't think, it's fair, that Sansa often gets judged very harshly, while Ned's behavior gets not examined at all or excused. (not saying that you guys are doing that) And also might have changed now- I dunno- I've been away from the fan posts for a couple of years, but I definitely think that is still the case, when it comes to places like yt.

Well, doing something "wicked" and tell queen Cersei you father's secret plans is not entirely Sansa's nature.

That is, Jon and Arya know not to include Sansa in secrets, because "Sansa always tells". So on the one hand it is not in her nature to keep a secret, but to tell them. And on the other hand, according to Mordane, Ned, Arya and Sansa herself she's normally the obedient one. So, it was against her nature to disobey a direct order from her father.

So, I don't think the argument that Sansa acted according to her nature here holds up. She made a deliberate, very conscious choice to do something she herself considers not her nature.

I also agree as others have said, that in this case Sansa was disloyal as well as selfish. In order to prevent beind shipped off to White Harbor, she intentionally, wanted to prevent not just herself but her sister and the rest of the household to be shipped off. That is the disloyal part imo: Sansa wanted to prevent her family from leaving KL, not just herself. So, it cannot be argued she did not know the consequences. She actually had a certain outcome and consequence in mind. And yes, I don't like it that Sansa considers even her friend Jeyne Poole's weeping an inconvenience and for a very long time never wonders what the hell happened to either her sister and Jeyne Poole. This goes beyond sibling squabbles. Though I do understand Sansa doesn't want to be confronted with Jeyne Poole's weeping as it threatens to burst Sansa's ivory tower bubble.

What strikes me as very odd though is that she went to Cersei for it. A chapter earlier, Sansa thinks of Cersei in a negative way for wanting Lady killed. She blamed a lot of people for Lady's death: Arya foremostly for the Mycah incident and being "wicked", her father for holding the knife, Robert for going along with Cersei's demand, but also Cersei. I can see her trying to get to Joffrey and tell him. He's the one she's in love with and understandably excuses for everything. But Cersei? And yet, it was Cersei she sought out. That makes it even a more deliberate choice. Of the four people she was angry with over the death of Lady, she chose the one person who demanded Lady to be killed to trust with her father's secret plans.

And in light of that it makes it even harder to argue that Sansa did not know the consequences of her actions. If she had gone to Joffrey, pleading him for help to persuade her father to have her stay at KL or something along those lines, I could concede to that point. That would be an action befitting a girl donig something rashly romantic to remain, without hampering her family. It would be a naive action, but very much in character and in line with her previous opinions. So, why didn't she seek Joffrey? Imo, because she recognized he did not have actual authority yet. So, she purposefully sought out the one authority who could overrule her father - the queen - exactly because Cersei once had the nerve to make a demand to which her father ultimately complied (Lady's death).

I agree that ultimately chances are slim that their fates would have altered much. Nevertheless, the Tower of the Hand is within the Red Keep and thus Cersei might have presumed that Sansa and Arya were in her possession anyhow, without making a slaughter of it, thereby allowing for a chance for Arya and others to make it to the ship. And without the ship's name, it would have taken a larger effort by Lannister soldiers and Gold Cloaks to search for the Stark daughters. Even hours later they could have made it to Dragonstone. 

This would indeed have had an impact on Robb's war. Once Stannis has Ned's letter, he can send the info on Ned's wishes as well as the whereabouts of Sansa and Arya to Robb who's still at Winterfell. It's unlikely that Stannis would let Arya and/or Sansa sail on to White Harbor, but far more likely he'd keep them for "their own safety" as a soft pressure to Robb to swear his fealty to him. Chances are then that Robb would have gone south to aid the Riverlands while already allied with Stannis, and he thus would never end up declaring himself king.

[Nagini's Neville]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, doing something "wicked" and tell queen Cersei you father's secret plans is not entirely Sansa's nature.

That is, Jon and Arya know not to include Sansa in secrets, because "Sansa always tells". So on the one hand it is not in her nature to keep a secret, but to tell them. And on the other hand, according to Mordane, Ned, Arya and Sansa herself she's normally the obedient one. So, it was against her nature to disobey a direct order from her father.

So, I don't think the argument that Sansa acted according to her nature here holds up. She made a deliberate, very conscious choice to do something she herself considers not her nature.

I also agree as others have said, that in this case Sansa was disloyal as well as selfish. In order to prevent beind shipped off to White Harbor, she intentionally, wanted to prevent not just herself but her sister and the rest of the household to be shipped off. That is the disloyal part imo: Sansa wanted to prevent her family from leaving KL, not just herself. So, it cannot be argued she did not know the consequences. She actually had a certain outcome and consequence in mind. And yes, I don't like it that Sansa considers even her friend Jeyne Poole's weeping an inconvenience and for a very long time never wonders what the hell happened to either her sister and Jeyne Poole. This goes beyond sibling squabbles. Though I do understand Sansa doesn't want to be confronted with Jeyne Poole's weeping as it threatens to burst Sansa's ivory tower bubble.

What strikes me as very odd though is that she went to Cersei for it. A chapter earlier, Sansa thinks of Cersei in a negative way for wanting Lady killed. She blamed a lot of people for Lady's death: Arya foremostly for the Mycah incident and being "wicked", her father for holding the knife, Robert for going along with Cersei's demand, but also Cersei. I can see her trying to get to Joffrey and tell him. He's the one she's in love with and understandably excuses for everything. But Cersei? And yet, it was Cersei she sought out. That makes it even a more deliberate choice. Of the four people she was angry with over the death of Lady, she chose the one person who demanded Lady to be killed to trust with her father's secret plans.

And in light of that it makes it even harder to argue that Sansa did not know the consequences of her actions. If she had gone to Joffrey, pleading him for help to persuade her father to have her stay at KL or something along those lines, I could concede to that point. That would be an action befitting a girl donig something rashly romantic to remain, without hampering her family. It would be a naive action, but very much in character and in line with her previous opinions. So, why didn't she seek Joffrey? Imo, because she recognized he did not have actual authority yet. So, she purposefully sought out the one authority who could overrule her father - the queen - exactly because Cersei once had the nerve to make a demand to which her father ultimately complied (Lady's death).

I agree that ultimately chances are slim that their fates would have altered much. Nevertheless, the Tower of the Hand is within the Red Keep and thus Cersei might have presumed that Sansa and Arya were in her possession anyhow, without making a slaughter of it, thereby allowing for a chance for Arya and others to make it to the ship. And without the ship's name, it would have taken a larger effort by Lannister soldiers and Gold Cloaks to search for the Stark daughters. Even hours later they could have made it to Dragonstone. 

This would indeed have had an impact on Robb's war. Once Stannis has Ned's letter, he can send the info on Ned's wishes as well as the whereabouts of Sansa and Arya to Robb who's still at Winterfell. It's unlikely that Stannis would let Arya and/or Sansa sail on to White Harbor, but far more likely he'd keep them for "their own safety" as a soft pressure to Robb to swear his fealty to him. Chances are then that Robb would have gone south to aid the Riverlands while already allied with Stannis, and he thus would never end up declaring himself king.

I was talking about the "real consequences", what actually happened, never did I ever say Sansa didn't have concrete consequences in mind- that was the whole point of her actions. 

Her nature is not that she is always disobedient or that she always doesn't keep secrets, but that she is absorbed by her fairytale world and everything, that doesn't fit into that concept she ignores/explains away. She has a very strong imagination and it takes over and rules her reality. "True knights protect the weak" etc etc. Even when Joff promises to be merciful towards Ned she still believes it. (talked about it in my first post at length-if you are true interested)

And yes Sansa had an intuition, when it came to Joff and Cersei, but she "ignored it", because she wanted so desperately for her dream to come true. And in that regard she was selfish and disobedient. But she didn't know how cruel the world was and what awful things could happen. And there is a big difference between killing a pet and killing the Lord of Winterfell. 

Yeah, she didn't think well of Cersei, but neither did Ned ("That murder lies at the Hound’s door, him and the cruel woman he serves.”)

So many times he thought badly of her and still he told her about his knowledge, before sending away his children, told her he would tell bobby, but than didn't - and he was fully aware that she was a cruel woman. So why do you excuse that with his nature, but sansa's nature (being a faiytale- daydreamer, who creates their own reality) doesn't excuse, that she "ignored" the warning signs in regards to Cresei.

They both did. He was an adult however, she just an 11 year old. He was their father, he was responsible to protect them. 

Being self-centered is normal for a lot of 11 year olds. And yes arya is not like that, she has other "faults", but it's still normal, the brain isn't as developed yet as it is in an adult, it's especially the frontal lobe- responsible for planing, risk taking etc.(that's why a lot of insurance companies don't take you on until you are 25), but also areas that are responsible for taking on someone else's perspective (ToM)- If you don't believe me lots of studies out there on this topic.

Also I have stated my opinion often enough in this thread, if you are truly interested in my opinion, please just read my other posts (in my first I talk in detail, about Sansa's "nature") and respond to them, if you want to, I don't like repeating myself.

 

[Elegant Woes]

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That is, Jon and Arya know not to include Sansa in secrets, because "Sansa always tells". So on the one hand it is not in her nature to keep a secret, but to tell them.

It's interesting that Jon and Arya have a 'don't tell Sansa' policy when in reality she covered for both of them. Once for Jon and twice for Arya in both Sansa's and Arya's first chapter. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No worries! I completely understand. 

 

I remember this too. When I first came to the forums a few years ago Sansa was like the most hated. Then I took a break & started coming back & somehow or another it has changed to Arya & Jon being hated. Probably Jon worse than Arya. 

I agree! I think we mostly agree on everything else we were just stuck on that word "disloyal" & what it means to us. It may be a language thing (I would never have known English wasn't your first language btw - I always admire people who can master two or more languages, especially when one of them is English because it is my first language & it still confuses me sometimes!) It could be also that I was just using the wrong word to describe what I was trying to say, but yeah I definitely don't think she betrayed anyone & completely understand why you would be prickly about someone saying she did. 

Me too! The Starks are my favorite & it is beyond frustrating to hear all the blind hatred toward them. It's like those people didn't read the same books or something - not because the Starks aren't their favorite - but because it's like no matter what they did, or what their reasons were these people consider it the most evil thing ever. They are real & human & face real, human difficulties & I would imagine most of the people screaming that Sansa was the demise of the family or that Jon is evil reincarnate for messing with poor Ramsay are either just trying to get a rise out of someone or else they have a very difficult time putting their self in someone elses shoes. 

I totally get it, I see it to & it sucks. No worries I apologize for anything I said to lead you to believe I was a blind Sansa hater also, because they are definitely out there. 

Oh I agree. It's crazy how real these people become in your mind. On my first read I was so angry with Sansa for the whole Lady incident, my second read I paid more attention & tried to put myself in her shoes & realized I wasn't actually angry with her at all but angry at the situation. I root for Arya too & worry for her. One part of me wants her to wipe the murderous Frey's off the face of the earth but the other part of me doesn't want her to ruin her already damaged psyche any further. I want her to heal & be happy. My heart aches for Cat. Her relationship with King Robb reminds me a little of my eldest son who has recently come of age & moved out on his own. Not a King for sure LOL but becoming his own boss is a hard thing for us mothers to cope with I think & a part of us will always be their boss because they will always be our babies. I've struggled with learning to give him advice but to ultimately let him decide on his own & thankfully he has been very patient with me in this regard  

 

Yeah it's a little unreal honestly & the worst thing he did (IMO) was the switch of the babies & that is not near what they hate on him the most for. This is another time I was angry with a character but after re-reading it came to terms with the fact that he was trying to save the baby. My heart just still hurts for Gilly though. She has been through so much & fought hard to keep her baby alive & now she isn't with him. It stinks. 

Haha! It's so funny that you bring that up because I was just thinking last night how nice it would be to be able to have a real discussion in regards to Jon & his decisions. But I only ever end up with "JoN Is TrAitOr, PoOr RaMsaY" & it's hard to discuss things like that lol 

I agree & as a mother of a teenage daughter & teenage sons, I don't think society is as hard on boys as girls. My daughter has faced trials & tribulations that my sons would never have dreamed of having to face. In a way they just have a simpler life. Not that they don't face their own trials, they just don't seem to get driticized the way teenage girls do. I read twilight as a a 20 something year old & LOVED it. The movies dampened my enthusiasm a little because that Edward was NOT my Edward & especiallly the first movie just wasn't done real well. I have also been known to sing along with the Bieb even now & I'm 39. 

Maybe! I can tell you this forum has thickened up my skin over the years because when I first returned & seen all the hatred toward Jon I was heartbroken! I could not comprehend how, someone I viewed as a very good person, could be seen as so bad but so many others - but that is something I would like to delve into & discuss, like you would with Sansa. Maybe we should start our own threads

Thank you so much for this wonderful post!

I do want to respond to it in detail. I just don't really have to much time rn, but I'll do it as soon as I have some. Haha that's so funny he was also not "my Edward". I feel like having experienced so many adaptation from all the young adult books I've read as a teenager and all those different stories always turning out to be basically the exact same movie(hollywood formula), has really shaped my expectations/interests when it comes to Book to movie/series adaptations  And so I did not even really try to attempt to watch GOT (even though I watched bits and pieces and the big events like RW, BotB, Gregor vs.the red viper some of Sansa's and Arya's scenes-because all of those viewing-parties lol). Weirdly enough everyone being so upset has rewaken my interest in rereading the series  

I would so love to have some discussions about Jon, I'm really getting into his character this time around. What I personally really don't understand is, that he gets more hate than Robb. Not that Robb should get soo much hate, but I agree the only ever questionable thing he did was the babies. In general I have a really hard time relating to all of the male characters, while it's really easy to relate to mostly all of the female characters- even if I don't like them, I still mostly understand their logic and can empathize with them. While I really have a hard time with the male characters (I guess Bran, I can relate to as well a lot and I love Pod to pieces, but I don't know what he is thinking lol) Is it easy for you to relate to the male characters? tbh that has never happened to me before to this extent in a book series. But they are all just so uhm... hyper-masculine? lol 

So much more to talk about, but I don't have time.. agh!  

Also wow, you are a really young mom! I'm sure you have such a different/richer perspective reading ASOIAF, if you have kids! And how lucky to have a son and a daughter ! At least I imagine that to be great  

 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Her nature is not that she is always disobedient or that she always doesn't keep secrets, but that she is absorbed by her fairytale world and everything, that doesn't fit into that concept she just ignores. She has a very strong imagination and it takes over and rules everything. "True knights protect the weak" etc etc. Even when Joff promises to be merciful towards Ned she still believes it. 

Isn't that cherry picking her "nature"? A person isn't just defined by one trait alone. And while yes, she has her head in the fairytale clouds, I think you're making Sansa one-dimensional by calling that alone her nature. "True knights protect the weak" is a belief, a mental concept she created or clings to... and mental constructs (borrowed or invented, no matter) are imo exactly the opposite of "nature"/"personality".  It is however, in everyone's nature to avoid cognitive dissonance: that is the tendency to deny facts when the facts conflict with beliefs, because it is easier for the brain to deny facts than change beliefs. This is not just true for Sansa, but almost anyone. I see Sansa (and Ned and Catelyn) as suffering from avoidance of cog-dis big time. It's this that causes Sansa to be relieved of Jeyne Poole being gone from her room. Sansa suffers from it more than say Arya, Robb and Jon, because the mental beliefs she has created are utterly unrealistic, for which I mostly blame Septa Mordane. She more than likely did not just indulge Sansa in this, but spoonfed them. And Septa Mordane just doesn't know any better. And Mordane's doing what she was raised to do in Oldtown: become a household person who teaches girls lies about the world.

So, do I fault Sansa for avoiding cog-dis? No.

But it wasn't a fairytale that made her go seek out Cersei. If it had been the fairytale guiding her actions, she would have gone to Joffrey.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And yes Sansa had an intuition, when it came to Joff and Cersei, but she changed her mind and just ignored, because she wanted so desperately for her dream to come true. And in that regard she was selfish and disobedient. but she didn't know how cruel the world was and what awful things could happen. And there is a big difference between killing a pet and killing the Lord of Winterfell. 

Rubbish. Sansa sat on the first row when the Mountain killed Ser Hugh of the Vale, and she prides herself on the composure she can maintain as the life bleeds out from him, thinking how cruel it is that one day you may believe you can win a tourney and the next you're dead and nobody will sing any songs for you. She knew and defended Sandor's slaying of Mycah as "the way of the world". And she's been internalizing some of Sandor's first lessons to her: not all knights are good. She knows cruel things happen and how some of these are unfair, like Lady getting executed.

I don't think Sansa changed her mind about the queen or just ignored it. I think she sought the queen out exactly because she recognized the queen had power and would use it. I don't think she believed her father would end up killed, when she went to the queen, but that there would be severe consequences I do believe she had in mind. Most probably she believed he would end up fired and sent packing in disgrace. And she never cared about the consequences for her sister at that point.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, she didn't think well of Cersei, but neither did Ned ("That murder lies at the Hound’s door, him and the cruel woman he serves.”)

So many times he thought badly of her and still he told her about his knowledge, before sending away his children, told her he would tell bobby, but than didn't - and he was fully aware that she was a cruel woman. So why do you excuse that with his nature, but sansa's nature (being a faiytale- daydreamer, who creates their own reality) doesn't excuse, that she ignored the warning signs in regards to Cresei.

Oh yes, I fully agree that Ned was utterly thoughtless and irresponsible to confront Cersei about what he knew before securing the safety of his daughters.

Because I don't believe Sansa ignored the warning signs in regards to Cersei at all. I think Sansa wanted to use those warning signs to her own advantage, fully aware that she was a powerful and dangerous woman who didn't like her father at all. 

Ned didn't ignore who or what Cersei was when he confronted her. But he counted on two things: 1) Robert would return soon full of life 2) Cersei loved her children more than power. He was mistaken in both. In fact, when you check the times of the moment that Ned confronts Cersei, you realize that Ned spoke to Cersei at sundown of the day when Robert was already mortally wounded by the boar at dawn. In other words, unbeknownst to Ned, Robert was already being carried back to KL with his guts hanging out, and worse I believe Cersei already had private word of what had befallen Robert that very morning. Cersei already knew she had won, and likely believed that Robert would never make it back to KL alive. 

In that sense, Ned's confrontation did not seal Robert's fate. It did however endanger his daughters, and even once he knew Robert lay dieing, and Cersei still had not left, he should have expected a power play by her and get his children out of the keep that very night. No amount of trusting nature in the other players aside from Cersei, excuses the folly of believing time was on his side. I want to bang the book on his head every time I reread the chapter of Robert on his death bed and the one where Arya told him about a wizard and a princess with child and then Robert's council talking about Dany's pregnancy. Bah, as soon as he learned of the news of the catspaw sent to kill Bran and had witnessed Robert's weakness when it came to Cersei's demands at the cost of his own daughters and Mycah's death, he should have sent his daughters on a boat back home WITH Cat. Gaaah! 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Being self-centered is normal for a lot of 11 year olds. And yes arya is not like that, she has other "faults", but it's still normal, the brain isn't as developed yet as it is in an adult, it's especially the frontal lobe- responsible for planing, risk taking etc.(that's why a lot of insurance companies don't take you on until you are 25), but also areas that a responsible for taking on someone else's perspective (ToM)- If you don't believe me lots of studies out there on this topic.

Being self-centered is normal in 14-16 year olds, not so much 11-year olds. I'm a teacher. I know perfectly well what hormones do to the brain in a teenager. However, prior to puberty hitting, children tend to be more responsible than during.

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Also I have stated my opinion often enough in this thread, if you are truly interested in my opinion, please just read my other posts (in my first I talk in detail, about Sansa's "nature") and respond to them, if you want to, I don't like repeating myself. 

I know you've written quite a lot in this thread. I haven't posted my opinions yet, and using several of your opinions to explain mine.

As to the OP: I agree that Sansa sometimes get blamed for too much. Sansa's tattle telling wasn't what caused Cersei to act against Ned. She was going to do that anyway. Ned himself alerted Cersei to a potential declaration against Joffrey. And Cersei would have made a move to secure Sansa and Arya at some point during the day too. However, Sansa made it very easy for Cersei to capture Sansa and have her foremost important hostage. Sansa's actions also likely shut the small window of time Arya and some of the household would have had in getting to the ship (based on George's own words on this). Ned's letter to Stannis never made it Dragonstone either, which would have likely helped to secure an alliance between Stannis and Robb, before he rode off to war and into the Riverlands.

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Being self-centered is normal in 14-16 year olds, not so much 11-year olds. I'm a teacher. I know perfectly well what hormones do to the brain in a teenager. However, prior to puberty hitting, children tend to be more responsible than during.

Not all children's development is the same. I have a bachelor degree in psychology and have also worked with children quite a lot. And studied their development at uni. And sure you can be self-centered as an 11 year old. Didn't say it doesn't get worse in the teens on average, but that's not the same for all kids. I personally was way more self-centered and shortsighted at 11 than in my later years.

 

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

JoN Is TrAitOr, PoOr RaMsaY" & it's hard to discuss things like that lol 

  

[Mystical]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, doing something "wicked" and tell queen Cersei you father's secret plans is not entirely Sansa's nature.

That is, Jon and Arya know not to include Sansa in secrets, because "Sansa always tells". So on the one hand it is not in her nature to keep a secret, but to tell them. And on the other hand, according to Mordane, Ned, Arya and Sansa herself she's normally the obedient one. So, it was against her nature to disobey a direct order from her father.

So, I don't think the argument that Sansa acted according to her nature here holds up. She made a deliberate, very conscious choice to do something she herself considers not her nature.

I also agree as others have said, that in this case Sansa was disloyal as well as selfish. In order to prevent beind shipped off to White Harbor, she intentionally, wanted to prevent not just herself but her sister and the rest of the household to be shipped off. That is the disloyal part imo: Sansa wanted to prevent her family from leaving KL, not just herself. So, it cannot be argued she did not know the consequences. She actually had a certain outcome and consequence in mind. And yes, I don't like it that Sansa considers even her friend Jeyne Poole's weeping an inconvenience and for a very long time never wonders what the hell happened to either her sister and Jeyne Poole. This goes beyond sibling squabbles. Though I do understand Sansa doesn't want to be confronted with Jeyne Poole's weeping as it threatens to burst Sansa's ivory tower bubble.

What strikes me as very odd though is that she went to Cersei for it. A chapter earlier, Sansa thinks of Cersei in a negative way for wanting Lady killed. She blamed a lot of people for Lady's death: Arya foremostly for the Mycah incident and being "wicked", her father for holding the knife, Robert for going along with Cersei's demand, but also Cersei. I can see her trying to get to Joffrey and tell him. He's the one she's in love with and understandably excuses for everything. But Cersei? And yet, it was Cersei she sought out. That makes it even a more deliberate choice. Of the four people she was angry with over the death of Lady, she chose the one person who demanded Lady to be killed to trust with her father's secret plans.

And in light of that it makes it even harder to argue that Sansa did not know the consequences of her actions. If she had gone to Joffrey, pleading him for help to persuade her father to have her stay at KL or something along those lines, I could concede to that point. That would be an action befitting a girl donig something rashly romantic to remain, without hampering her family. It would be a naive action, but very much in character and in line with her previous opinions. So, why didn't she seek Joffrey? Imo, because she recognized he did not have actual authority yet. So, she purposefully sought out the one authority who could overrule her father - the queen - exactly because Cersei once had the nerve to make a demand to which her father ultimately complied (Lady's death).

I agree that ultimately chances are slim that their fates would have altered much. Nevertheless, the Tower of the Hand is within the Red Keep and thus Cersei might have presumed that Sansa and Arya were in her possession anyhow, without making a slaughter of it, thereby allowing for a chance for Arya and others to make it to the ship. And without the ship's name, it would have taken a larger effort by Lannister soldiers and Gold Cloaks to search for the Stark daughters. Even hours later they could have made it to Dragonstone. 

This would indeed have had an impact on Robb's war. Once Stannis has Ned's letter, he can send the info on Ned's wishes as well as the whereabouts of Sansa and Arya to Robb who's still at Winterfell. It's unlikely that Stannis would let Arya and/or Sansa sail on to White Harbor, but far more likely he'd keep them for "their own safety" as a soft pressure to Robb to swear his fealty to him. Chances are then that Robb would have gone south to aid the Riverlands while already allied with Stannis, and he thus would never end up declaring himself king.

For me it is very simple. There are two things going on and they need to be judged/discussed separately. There is what Sansa wanted and what she hoped would happen or tried to accomplish with her actions. And then there is the bigger plot happening around Sansa of which she has no idea. The problem is that people tend to lump the two together and judge Sansa for consequences she had no idea would occur because she's completely in the dark about it.

So it's completely fair to say she knew what she was doing. She was trying to accomplish something. You can even call it selfish or entitled or self-serving or whatever.

But this is a completely separate issue from the bigger plot going on in KL of which Sansa had absolutely no knowledge. That her actions actually had consequences for the bigger plot was not something she could in any way foresee. And that is all on Ned.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

  

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

I don't think Sansa changed her mind about the queen or just ignored it. I think she sought the queen out exactly because she recognized the queen had power and would use it. I don't think she believed her father would end up killed, when she went to the queen, but that there would be severe consequences I do believe she had in mind. Most probably she believed he would end up fired and sent packing in disgrace. And she never cared about the consequences for her sister at that point.

 

Sure because she is this cunning evil manipulator, that doesn't care about anyone but herself, right? 

 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Mystical said:

For me it is very simple. There are two things going on and they need to be judged/discussed separately. There is what Sansa wanted and what she hoped would happen or tried to accomplish with her actions. And then there is the bigger plot happening around Sansa of which she has no idea. The problem is that people tend to lump the two together and judge Sansa for consequences she had no idea would occur because she's completely in the dark about it.

So it's completely fair to say she knew what she was doing. She was trying to accomplish something. You can even call it selfish or entitled or self-serving or whatever.

But this is a completely separate issue from the bigger plot going on in KL of which Sansa had absolutely no knowledge. That her actions actually had consequences for the bigger plot was not something she could in any way foresee. And that is all on Ned.

Agreed. Her responsibility only goes as far as knowing that Arya, the household and she were meant to leave KL. She wanted to stop that by going to a woman she knew was powerful, not afraid of using it, and not liking Arya or her father, not just to prevent herself from leaving but everyone else. Which is indeed selifhs, entitled, self-serving and disloyal.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

For me it is very simple. There are two things going on and they need to be judged/discussed separately. There is what Sansa wanted and what she hoped would happen or tried to accomplish with her actions. And then there is the bigger plot happening around Sansa of which she has no idea. The problem is that people tend to lump the two together and judge Sansa for consequences she had no idea would occur because she's completely in the dark about it.

So it's completely fair to say she knew what she was doing. She was trying to accomplish something. You can even call it selfish or entitled or self-serving or whatever.

But this is a completely separate issue from the bigger plot going on in KL of which Sansa had absolutely no knowledge. That her actions actually had consequences for the bigger plot was not something she could in any way foresee. And that is all on Ned.

Thank you!! I'm already so tired lol

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Sure because she is this cunning evil manipulator, that doesn't care about anyone but herself, right? 

 

The attempt to build up a straw man argument here.

No, Sansa isn't evil. She isn't cunning. And she's not that great a manipulator. But she's a selfish entitled spoiled brat who indeed cares little about anyone but herself in the first book. Thank George she outgrew it.

[Mystical]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Which is indeed selifhs, entitled, self-serving and disloyal.

So basically...kids will be kids. Because you just perfectly described them. How many children today would throw their family under the bus for a bad ass game console or the best cell phone?