Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But I always thought, that Ned's execution was clearly an "accident" and nothing truly allowed for it. Just that the Lannisters were lucky, that they had Sansa, otherwise Ned's execution would have had more severe consequences for them- Jaime's death.

Yeah for sure. I was pointing out to Nevets that if the main effect Sansa telling had was allowing her to be captured that it no small effect because it gave them the leverage to push on Ned & get him to confess to treason. Had they not had Ned publicly confessing to treason & Joff lobbed his head off it could have went very bad for them. For what it's worth I think if Ned refused to confess to treason they would have figured out some way of disposing of him, they just wouldn't have done it in public. 

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. I was pointing out to Nevets that if the main effect Sansa telling had was allowing her to be captured that it no small effect because it gave them the leverage to push on Ned & get him to confess to treason. Had they not had Ned publicly confessing to treason & Joff lobbed his head off it could have went very bad for them. For what it's worth I think if Ned refused to confess to treason they would have figured out some way of disposing of him, they just wouldn't have done it in public. 

Yes, I guess I'd agree, if it had been Cersei or Tywin giving the order to execute Ned after his public confession of being a traitor. 

If executing Ned had been their goal and a well- thought out plan, but since it wasn't, there was always the chance that Joff would have executed Ned in private, the same way, that there was the chance he would have had Sansa beaten to death "by accident".

So I  agree with Nevets, that the only ppl, that Sansa's actions really harmed were herself and Arya 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yes, I guess I'd agree, if it had been Cersei or Tywin giving the order to execute Ned after his public confession of being a traitor. 

If executing Ned had been their goal and a well- thought out plan, but since it wasn't, there was always the chance that Joff would have executed Ned in private, the same way, that there was the chance he would have had Sansa beaten to death "by accident".

So I  agree with Nevets, that the only ppl, that Sansa's actions really harmed were herself and Arya

Yeah, I agree. I don't think Sansa not being there for leverage would have saved Ned's life, only that because she was there that's the method they used. 

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I agree. I don't think Sansa not being there for leverage would have saved Ned's life, only that because she was there that's the method they used. 

Sure, they could have made him agree to whatever they wanted-probably. Would have been interesting to see how far they could have pushed Ned, since later on Robb clearly prioritized the North

[teej6]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

To be honest, I'm surprised to find myself in this position, but reading the books forced me to it. The SSM is wrong. There is no possible scenario in which Sansa's information made a difference to the death of Ned - and let me tell you, I have thought and thought about it. The more I look for evidence, the more impossible it gets. If you can do better, go for it.

GRRM has added many (apparently unnecessary) details to the books showing the weakness of the Stark forces, the lack of information security, and in contrast, Cersei's strength and dedication to spies. And a lot of other stuff I'm not going to repeat all over again. There is a contradiction here in choosing to have the text push one way, and in his personal remarks declaring the opposite case - that Cersei depended on Sansa for information,

You repeating the SSM is wrong over and over again does not make it wrong. I'm quite certain GRRM knows and understands his text and intent better than you, and in his stating that Sansa had a part to play in her father's downfall, there is no inconsistency with the text. The only argument the reader can make, which GRRM also states, was what was the significance of Sansa's role in Ned's downfall? If Sansa did what she was told, would Sansa and Arya have been able to escape King's Landing, and in doing so would this have put Ned and the Starks in a better position? Would Cersei have moved against Ned so quickly or would she have waited for Robert to die? 

GRRM shows Ned's naiveté and lack of skill playing the likes of Cersei and LF but that doesn't mean Cersei had a sure win against Ned. Had Ned succeeded in getting Sansa and Arya out of KL, he wouldn't have confessed and Ned may still be alive. Had Sansa and Arya been able to leave KL, events in the war may have turned out very different. There are several possibilities in which the author could have taken the story, just because you can't think of any possibility in which Sansa not telling Cersei Ned's plans would have aided the Starks or even Ned, doesn't mean GRRM couldn't have come up with one. 

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He did! It's a direct quote from Cersei to Sansa - your father's plans to remove you, or something. At a minimum that's the fact that they are sailing that evening, at a maximum that's the name of the ship and details of the escort.

I honestly don't know what you mean here. Not only does Cersei indicate that Sansa revealed Ned's plans to her, but Sansa admits as much to Cersei in a Sansa chapter in AGOT. So Cersei is not making things up here, it really happened. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

How?

I've got a quote to counter that, which you must like, because it's yours.

... she’s not the most reliable person. She misconstrues things, even in her own thoughts, to suit her view of herself and others.

How? Exactly in the manner GRRM states in his SSM. In the books Cersei thinks the information is vital and so does the author. Cersei may not have had a hostage as leverage against Ned and the Starks had Sansa not betrayed her father's plans. Cersei may have waited till Robert died to move against Ned. Cersei may not have reached out to LF for help (if we assume that's how things transpired). Again, GRRM is not stating in the SSM that Sansa's betrayal is the only factor that led to Ned's downfall but instead he states its one among many. 

As to quoting me from a previous post, nice try. Yes, I still think that Cersei invents things to suit her narrative or play the victim card -- Tyrion thinks as much in the books. But in this case,  Cersei is not making up anything to show her prowess or play the victim or to establish her rights. She is just stating a fact to Tyrion that had Sansa not come to her with Ned's plans, things may have not gone her way. No reason here for her to make up things. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ned has set her a very tight timetable already - 'When the king returns from the hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him.' Which would mean her death, we assume. Full steam ahead from that point, then.

Did I say anything different from the above. I clearly stated that Cersei had already set her plans in motion before Sansa approached her. As to the killing of Robert, Cersei may have wanted Robert gone but we don't know that she would have had Lancel give Robert strongwine in the hunt if Ned had not told her that he knew about her secret. Varys states as much to Ned. Cersei may have waited for a more opportune moment to act against Robert had she not been put in a desperate spot. We just don't know how things would have transpired. Her goading Robert to fight at the tournament may have been one of several attempts she made to eliminate Robert but that does not necessarily mean she would have definitely made another attempt when Robert went hunting. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I've asked this before and got no answer. What is the crucial information that makes a difference to the success of Cersei's coup?

• The ship? No.
• The dancing lesson? No.
• The timing? No. (Bob has to die first.)
• Troop deployments? I ask you. Ned has less than thirty men (not his best) against the full garrison of the Red Keep. Cersei sends out her pet Kingsguard. She sends the freaking Hound. However Ned distributes Fat Tom and the guys, there is no possible scenario in which they win.

Cersei lies even to herself.

Is it the word 'contradiction' that bothers you? It's not essential. Liar Cersei aside, all the detail of the books supports the case that Sansa made no difference to Ned's death. Why write all that detail in the books, and give the opposite conclusion in an interview?

If there's going to be a debate, we need two sides. I say there is no scenario in which Sansa's information made a difference to the fall of Ned. The other side must be able to give such a scenario.

As GRRM stated in his SSM, there are several things that fell in place for Cersei after Ned spilled his beans. She got Janos Slynt and his Gold Cloaks on her side (whether through LF's machination or not), she probably got information from LF,  Ned refused Renly's help, Ned refused LF's advice, Sansa revealing her father's plans to Cersei, etc. 

As to what part of Ned's plans that Sansa revealed was vital to Cersei? Perhaps, the fact that Ned was acting more quickly than Cersei anticipated, or the most obvious and simple fact that Cersei was able to prevent Sansa from leaving the capital giving her much needed leverage with Ned and the Starks. 

Cersei is a liar but in the instance she tells Tyrion that Sansa helped her bring down Ned, she is not lying. There is no reason here for Cersei to lie. If at all she should do the opposite -- trivialize Sansa's (who she considers stupid) contribution in her achievements. 

Lastly, as to the SSM, GMRR does not "contradict" anything in the books. He states that Sansa's reveal of Ned's plans was one among many reasons that Cersei was able to get the upper hand. GRRM knows exactly what he wrote and I've never seen an SSM where he lies or states something incorrect "to heat up an argument".

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 11:37 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I think sometimes it's a bit weird the stuff GRRM says. He also said readers like Sansa more now, since she has taken responsibility for her father's death. But I don't recall her every finding out why Ned was executed or what exactly happened there at all. I don't recall her ever thinking she had a role to play. She didn't even know Joff was a bastard.

This is one of the most astonishing things for me in Sansa's story-arc:

While Sansa matures in many ways, she has - as to my knowledge and just as Neville states - never thought about her conversation with Cersei again. I would have expected her to have nightmares, feelings of guilt or something like that. But: Nothing (until now).

Maybe one day, Petyr Baelish will bring up the topic.

[Mystical]

5 hours ago, teej6 said:

You repeating the SSM is wrong over and over again does not make it wrong. I'm quite certain GRRM knows and understands his text and intent better than you,

And again I ask. What does Martin's understanding or intend matter? The only thing that matters is the execution of it, aka the written words in his books. Everything else doesn't matter in the slightest. Books are no different than tv shows in that regard, the only canon that matters is what's on screen (or the page in case of books). So if a writer has a very specific intend in mind, he/she better make sure that they put that on the page so as to leave no doubt. Because most people don't go chasing for interviews or behind the scenes explanations when reading/watching something so all that speaks to the writer's intend is the product he/she put out. As it stands, his intend might have worked with some but those who pay closer attention to detail are calling foul.

2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

This is one of the most astonishing things for me in Sansa's story-arc:

While Sansa matures in many ways, she has - as to my knowledge and just as Neville states - never thought about her conversation with Cersei again. I would have expected her to have nightmares, feelings of guilt or something like that. But: Nothing (until now).

Maybe GRRM forgot. Or maybe he changed his mind that this is something Sansa needs to feel guilty for. After all, that SSM is 20 years old. Sansa is a character capable of feeling guilt so that's not the issue as to why she doesn't reflect on that.

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. I was pointing out to Nevets that if the main effect Sansa telling had was allowing her to be captured that it no small effect because it gave them the leverage to push on Ned & get him to confess to treason. Had they not had Ned publicly confessing to treason & Joff lobbed his head off it could have went very bad for them. For what it's worth I think if Ned refused to confess to treason they would have figured out some way of disposing of him, they just wouldn't have done it in public.

Except the effect started long before that point. Namely that Ned shouldn't have brought the girls to KL with him to begin with. At the very least all alarm bells should have been ringing during the Mycah/Joffrey/Arya incident and at that point he should have send them home. His parental (nvm political) failures started most of the effects, including Sansa going to Cersei.

[Nagini's Neville]

7 hours ago, teej6 said:

You repeating the SSM is wrong over and over again does not make it wrong. I'm quite certain GRRM knows and understands his text and intent better than you, and in his stating that Sansa had a part to play in her father's downfall, there is no inconsistency with the text.

GRRM makes it clear that he intended for Sansa to play a role in her father's downfall. But what you are stating here is just not true. SW has provided a lot of good textual evidence that the timeline is off. But even if it wasn't and Sansa being captured was only  a consequence of her her own actions, which could be true, even if it would have been remarkable, how quickly Cersei put everything in place then, but okay, it's a fair assumption. Even still then her being a hostage does not cause her fathers death.

Ned's execution was clearly an "accident" and nothing truly allowed for it. Just that the Lannisters were lucky, that they had Sansa, otherwise Ned's execution would have had more severe consequences for them- Jaime's death.

If Ned's execution had been a well thought out plan by Cersei or Tywin, I'd agree having Sansa as a hostage would have been vital, but they never wanted Ned to die in the first place. 

And if we agree that Ned's capture wasn't Sansa's fault (first and foremost caused by his own actions and LF's betrayal) and with him being a prisoner there would have always been the possibility of Joffrey going crazy and executing him.

I highly doubt Joff thought about Jaime's life and that it wouldn't be in danger with Sansa as a hostage and that he therefore was free to execute Ned. The guy is 12, not very bright and doesn't even care for Jaime.

And also yes GRRM does contradict himself sometimes in his interviews. He has also stated, that Sansa is now better liked by readers since she has taken responsibility for her father's downfall, but she never does that in the text.

That doesn't mean, that we shouldn't listen to what the author has to say and what he intended, if we want to. But then there are also ppl, who subscribe to the death of the author.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Except the effect started long before that point. Namely that Ned shouldn't have brought the girls to KL with him to begin with. At the very least all alarm bells should have been ringing during the Mycah/Joffrey/Arya incident and at that point he should have send them home. His parental (nvm political) failures started most of the effects, including Sansa going to Cersei

We can go back & back & back. It's Robert's fault for asking Ned to be hand. Or further - it's LF & Lysa's fault for killing Jon Arryn. Or further - it's Cersei's fault for having children with her brother. Or further - it's Tywin & Joanna's fault for not putting a stop to it. 

I'm not placing blame, I wasn't even necessarily agreeing. I was stating that if the main effect of Sansa telling Cersei was Sansa being captured that is no small effect because it allowed the Lannisters to have the leverage they needed to get Ned to publicly confess to treason. Is it Sansa's fault she was captured? Of course not, that is Cersei's fault. Is it Sansa's fault Ned was executed? No, that is Joffrey & a few other people's fault. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

This is one of the most astonishing things for me in Sansa's story-arc:

While Sansa matures in many ways, she has - as to my knowledge and just as Neville states - never thought about her conversation with Cersei again. I would have expected her to have nightmares, feelings of guilt or something like that. But: Nothing (until now).

Maybe one day, Petyr Baelish will bring up the topic.

It's Nagini's Neville please LOL

I think from a psychological standpoint it is quite understandable, that she doesn't think about much more than just surviving the next day.

I think it is a subconscious protection mechanism. In her position she can't allow herself to reflect to much or she'll probably have a breakdown. It is the same thing as Dany thinking "when I look back I'm lost"

It is just to much trauma for her at once, she is 11-12 and all alone in a very hostile environment, everyday she has to think about ways to not cause Joffrey's fury. Still she is beaten daily by adult men, has bruises all over and is constantly in fear of her life. She is completely beaten down.

If you ever have spoken to someone, who has been the victim of domestic abuse, they are usually just a shell of who they used to be, living day by day, just trying to survive.

Also what I think stands out in Sansa's story is that since her father's death, she has absolutely no one. She is all alone.

As horrible as Aria's fate is (and yeah she has it absolutely horrible, please let's not make it a competition, who had it worse. Pretty awful for both of them imo) she meets quite a view ppl along her way, who are generally good people and who don't want to hurt or take advantage of her- who see her as a human being. She has Yoren right from the start, then she has Hotpie and Gendry for quite a while. 

The BWB does want to take advantage of her, but they don't abuse and hurt her while doing it and are generally concerned for her well-being, are honest with her and in the end want to bring her back safely to her family. She has some nice moments with Lady Smallwood, don't know, if the Hound counts since he puts her trough so much in the beginning and is quite abusive, but towards the end- as much as she might hate him- she realizes he won't hurt her and truly wants to reunite her with a family member.

But Sansa never has someone like that just once. She is molested the first time at 11 and ever since then every person she comes across is either abusing her sexually, physically, emotionally or tries to take advantage of her otherwise. 

She has psychologically never had time to let her guard down- there is danger everywhere and that makes reflecting difficult.

But from how I read the text she also just truly doesn't understand, that she might be connected to her father's capture (which she also isn't really isn't, if we look at the text closely) 

But she doesn't know, that Ned had something on the Lannisters. (or does she ever find out that Ned was executed for finding out Joffs not Robert's?) So to her it just looks like her father has been inexplicable declared a traitor, for unknown reasons to her.

She of course without a doubt sides with her father right away, but she doesn't even know what his "crime" was supposed to be.

So how can she put blame on herself, if she doesn't even know what really happened? How can she see, that her begging the queen to be able to stay and her father being convicted for treason is connected?

But yeah, apparently George thinks Sansa is feeling guilt over it. Hm

Would be interesting than what the other Stark kids are apparently thinking about in his opinion even though it is not on the page.

The other stark kids also don't think about family related things sometimes even when you'd think they would. I guess there could again be a psychological reason- they have so much going on, that they can't allow it to themselves.

But yeah, I also always found it weird that Arya never once asked the Hound how Sansa is doing even though he told her twice he watched the other KG beat Sansa bloodily. 

And Jon thinks quite a bit about Tyrion, but not about Sansa, when she is married to him at 12, which I guess... okay, but what I find seriously weird, that he doesn't even thinks of what might happen to her after Tyrion has killed Tywin. He just thinks, that he never expected Tyrion to do such a thing. Okay Jon.

[Greywater-Watch]

29 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

[…]

But Sansa never has someone like that just once. She is molested the first time at 11 and ever since then every person she comes across is either abusing her sexually, physically, emotionally or tries to take advantage of her otherwise. 

She has psychologically never had time to let her guard down- there is danger everywhere and that makes reflecting difficult.

[…]

I agree with you that Sansa had practically no time to repose during her stay in KL.

But I think that in the Vale, she had time to think and that there she was/is not in imminent danger. I would have expected her to think about what happened in KL, especially after Petyr started to educate her in politics.

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I agree with you that Sansa had practically no time to repose during her stay in KL.

But I think that in the Vale, she had time to think and that there she was/is not in imminent danger. I would have expected her to think about what happened in KL, especially after Petyr started to educate her in politics.

In my opinion everything is still pretty hostile and dangerous in the Vale, with LF constantly molesting her, while her being depended on him, Marillion trying to rape her, Lysa trying to murder her and than having to watch LF kill her and having to lie about. She is still in survival mode. And we haven't had that many Sansa chapters since she is in the Vale.

And as I said before, I don't think she understands the connection there. For all she knows her father did something that made the Lannister label him a traitor. The one important puzzle piece is that Joff is a bastard and she doesn't know that. Maybe if she figured that out she could get the idea, that Ned might have known and was framed as a traitor because of it. 

I doubt Petyr will ever bring it up- he is to involved in it himself.

[Greywater-Watch]

59 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

In my opinion everything is still pretty hostile and dangerous in the Vale, with LF constantly molesting her, while her being depended on him, Marillion trying to rape her, Lysa trying to murder her and than having to watch LF kill her and having to lie about. She is still in survival mode. And we haven't had that many Sansa chapters since she is in the Vale.

And as I said before, I don't think she understands the connection there. For all she knows her father did something that made the Lannister label him a traitor. The one important puzzle piece is that Joff is a bastard and she doesn't know that. Maybe if she figured that out she could get the idea, that Ned might have known and was framed as a traitor because of it. 

I doubt Petyr will ever bring it up- he is to involved in it himself.

Hmmm.., I guess you are right that Sansa still had traumatic experiences at the beginning in the Vale (Donto's death, Marillion, Lysa). Afterwards, though, Things calmed down. I also agree that Petyr will probably not bring up the subject himself as he got his hands rather dirty on Ned's downfall.

I still hope that one day Sansa will pick up an information that brings her to think back and understand things that happened in KL. What a great situation that would be if she learned about Petyr's role then….

[Nagini's Neville]

28 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Hmmm.., I guess you are right that Sansa still had traumatic experiences at the beginning in the Vale (Donto's death, Marillion, Lysa). Afterwards, though, Things calmed down. I also agree that Petyr will probably not bring up the subject himself as he got his hands rather dirty on Ned's downfall.

I still hope that one day Sansa will pick up an information that brings her to think back and understand things that happened in KL. What a great situation that would be if she learned about Petyr's role then….

yeah, I want that too. ( I just hope GRRM does it since he apparently thinks Sansa already did? I chose to believe he was confused that day LOL I think with authors that could easily happen, especially being a gardner. They probably write so much, that doesn't make it into the books, but helps inform the characters. And ASOIAF is such a vast story, can not be easy to always keep track 100%) 

I think with Sansa there are quite a few things/ issues she is not conscious of yet or hasn't reflected on yet, because of lack of maturity ( still only being 13), trauma, limited knowledge, being in constant danger.

And it will be a great moment or several moments  when she finally does. Like her relationship with Arya and Jon, figuring out what happened in KL, LF's role in it and all of his crimes (Jeyne ), will she ever make a bigger deal out of the Hound's behavior and his death threats? What does the Unkiss mean? I hope we get all of that.

But I guess we have to take into account that her being severely abused and all of the trauma will/might still have an influence on her future actions and thoughts the same way it does with Arya.

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

GRRM makes it clear that he intended for Sansa to play a role in her father's downfall. But what you are stating here is just not true. SW has provided a lot of good textual evidence that the timeline is off. But even if it wasn't and Sansa being captured was only  a consequence of her her own actions, which could be true, even if it would have been remarkable, how quickly Cersei put everything in place then, but okay, it's a fair assumption. Even still then her being a hostage does not cause her fathers death.

What am I stating? If you bothered to read my post in its entirety you’d know that all I’m saying is that GRRM is not misstating or misrepresenting anything in the books with his SSM. He is not singling out Sansa for Ned’s downfall instead he is stating her betrayal is one among many factors for Cersei getting the upper hand. As to the timeline, all we know is that Ned went to Cersei before Sansa and Cersei may have begun to start the process of neutralizing Ned from when Ned idiotically asked her to flee. We don’t know when she reached out to LF for help (or when LF approached her if that’s how things transpired) or when LF arranged for Slynt and the Gold Cloaks to support Cersei. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Ned's execution was clearly an "accident" and nothing truly allowed for it. 

We don’t know for a fact that Ned’s execution was an accident. In fact, it is heavily implied (and suspected by Tywin and Tyrion) that someone (perhaps LF) whispered in Joffrey’s ear to execute Ned. It’s true that Cersei was in the dark about it but we don’t know what LF was plotting. Joffrey would not have had an opportunity to execute Ned had he still been in the black cell because Cersei would never have allowed it. The only reason she couldn’t stop the execution is because Joffrey asked for Ned’s head in such a public setting after Ned had confessed to treason. It was essential for Cersei that Ned confessed to treason, which he never would have done had it not been for his fear for Sansa’s life. There’s a quote from Cersei to that effect. So we don’t know how things would have turned out had Ned not agreed to confess. Cersei may not have given Ned such a public venue to speak for all she knows he may have revealed to the crowd that Joffrey was a product of incest and Cersei murdered Robert. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And, also yes GRRM does contradict himself sometimes in his interviews. He has also stated, that Sansa is now better liked by readers since she has taken responsibility for her father's downfall, but she never does that in the text.

That doesn't mean, that we shouldn't listen to what the author has to say and what he intended, if we want to. But then there are also ppl, who subscribe to the death of the author.

I don’t know what GRRM meant by Sansa taking responsibility for her father’s downfall. I do not know the specifics and context of that quote. I agree in the books Sansa has not once in her thoughts felt in any way responsible for Ned’s capture and death, but that I’ve always felt this is because it is a terrible thing for Sansa to consider and to come to terms with. Sansa does not process bad things well, she just puts it out of her mind. For instance, Sansa hears Maester Coleman’s protestation of administering too much sweetsleep to Robin but she dismisses that thought in her mind cause the alternative is too disturbing. She makes herself believe that she and LF knows what’s best for Lord Arryn and Coleman cares only for the boy.

[Nagini's Neville]

Quote

What am I stating? If you bothered to read my post in its entirety you’d know that all I’m saying is that GRRM is not misstating or misrepresenting anything in the books with his SSM. He is not singling out Sansa for Ned’s downfall instead he is stating her betrayal is one among many factors for Cersei getting the upper hand. As to the timeline, all we know is that Ned went to Cersei before Sansa and Cersei may have begun to start the process of neutralizing Ned from when Ned idiotically asked her to flee. We don’t know when she reached out to LF for help (or when LF approached her if that’s how things transpired) or when LF arranged for Slynt and the Gold Cloaks to support Cersei. 

First of all. Please don't be so annoyed with me. I'm not trying to "win this fight" or anything. If I wrongly interpret something that you've said, I'm doing it, because I didn't understand correctly. So yeah, I've read your whole post.

Could we maybe in the beginning already agree to disagree, so that we don't yell at each other? I did that already a bit throughout this thread and I kinda regret it.

In this case I think I understood you correctly. GRRM said in the SSM, that Sansa played a role in her father's death, but that's wrong when you look at the text, since Ned's death was never a plan of the Lannisters anyway. 

Quote

We don’t know for a fact that Ned’s execution was an accident. In fact, it is heavily implied (and suspected by Tywin and Tyrion) that someone (perhaps LF) whispered in Joffrey’s ear to execute Ned. It’s true that Cersei was in the dark about it but we don’t know what LF was plotting. Joffrey would not have had an opportunity to execute Ned had he still been in the black cell because Cersei would never have allowed it. The only reason she couldn’t stop the execution is because Joffrey asked for Ned’s head in such a public setting after Ned had confessed to treason. It was essential for Cersei that Ned confessed to treason, which he never would have done had it not been for his fear for Sansa’s life. There’s a quote from Cersei to that effect. So we don’t know how things would have turned out had Ned not agreed to confess. Cersei may not have given Ned such a public venue to speak for all she knows he may have revealed to the crowd that Joffrey was a product of incest and Cersei murdered Robert. 

Hm, a lot of "what if" involved. Do you maybe have a quote about the LF issue. If that is true even more reason to hate him. But if it is true, who says Joff wouldn't have found a way to execute Ned in private. Or better put LF might have found a way to let Joff do it.  Joffrey is the king after all.

As ppl have mentioned before Cersei is not always the brightest and she doesn't have a very good grip on her son. 

The KG also could have easily beaten Sansa to death by accident for example.

I agree that having Sansa was very useful for the Lannisters, but we also don't know, what they would have done to Ned without her.

They might have tortured him to get a confession.

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I don’t know what GRRM meant by Sansa taking responsibility for her father’s downfall. I do not know the specifics and context of that quote. I agree in the books Sansa has not once in her thoughts felt in any way responsible for Ned’s capture and death, but that I’ve always felt this is because it is a terrible thing for Sansa to consider and to come to terms with. Sansa does not process bad things well, she just puts it out of her mind. For instance, Sansa hears Maester Coleman’s protestation of administering too much sweetsleep to Robin but she dismisses that thought in her mind cause the alternative is too disturbing. She makes herself believe that she and LF knows what’s best for Lord Arryn and Coleman cares only for the boy.

I just mentioned that quote to show, that GRRM does sometimes contradict himself in his interviews. 

"Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death."

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&amp;docId=49161

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

First of all. Please don't be so annoyed with me. I'm not trying to "win this fight" or anything. If I wrongly interpret something that you've said, I'm doing it, because I didn't understand correctly. So yeah, I've read your whole post.

Could we maybe in the beginning already agree to disagree, so that we don't yell at each other? I did that already a bit throughout this thread and I kinda regret it.

In this case I think I understood you correctly. GRRM said in the SSM, that Sansa played a role in her father's death, but that's wrong when you look at the text, since Ned's death was never a plan of the Lannisters anyway. 

Nobody is trying to win a fight, but it is annoying when people misunderstand or misconstrue your statements without merit. And as to the bolded, it does not matter if the Lannisters intended for Ned to die or not, he died as a direct result of losing to Cersei and being captured and imprisoned by her. I’ll go a step further and stipulate that Ned’s death was also a result of his confessing to treason at the Sept of Baelor in front of the citizens of KL in order to save Sansa’s life. 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, a lot of "what if" involved. Do you maybe have a quote about the LF issue. If that is true even more reason to hate him. But if it is true, who says Joff wouldn't have found a way to execute Ned in private. Or better put LF might have found a way to let Joff do it.  Joffrey is the king after all.

As ppl have mentioned before Cersei is not always the brightest and she doesn't have a very good grip on her son. 

Regarding the bolded, I was responding to your claim that the timeline as to how things transpired once Ned has his conversation with Cersei is clearly defined in the text. It is not. Here’s the timeline I can remember from the books:

- Ned makes arrangements for Sansa and Arya to leave KL. While Ned is having the conversation about their departure with his daughters (which happened at night as Sansa and Arya were having supper), he realizes from Sansa’s comment that Cersei’s kids are fathered by Jamie.

- the next day at sunset, Ned reveals to Cersei he know the truth about her and Jamie. By this time Robert had already set out for his hunt. It’s not clear if Cersei had by this time already instructed Lancel to provide the strongwine to Robert.

- the very same night of Ned’s conversation with Cersei, he receives the news of Robert’s hunting accident. This night he also refuses Renly’s offer and LF’s advice.

- The next morning after breakfast I believe is when Sansa goes to Cersei. 

 - An hour after breakfast Pycelle informs Ned that Robert is dead. Then, Ned thinking he had the Gold Cloaks support challenges Cersei in the throne room.

In the above timeline, we do not know when LF turned and got Janos Slynt and his Gold Cloaks behind Cersei. Did Cersei reach out to LF after Sansa came to her? Or did this happen before. It’s unclear. 

As to your argument that LF would have found a way to have Joffrey kill Ned, that is not possible, Cersei would never allow it. Cersei couldn’t control Joffrey in such a public setting after Ned confessed to treason but unlike the show in the books she is able to control Joffrey. In fact she directs most of what he does. Her excuse to Tyrion that Joff does what he pleases is her trying to deflect blame from her. Cersei is not as smart as she thinks but she is cunning, at least in the first few books.

As to quotes about someone else having plotted Ned’s execution, I did not state that there is an explicit statement that pointsthe finger at LF or Varys but it has been implied that Tywin and Tyrion doubted the council and their motives in this regard. And there’s been several discussions and theories on this forum itself as to the execution of Ned being LF machination. Here’s  Tyrion’s words on Tywin and his doubts:

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Tyrion shrugged. “He knows that your son’s short reign has been a long parade of follies and disasters. That suggests that someone is giving Joffrey some very bad counsel.”

 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

As to your argument that LF would have found a way to have Joffrey kill Ned, that is not possible, Cersei would never allow it. Cersei couldn’t control Joffrey in such a public setting after Ned confessed to treason but unlike the show in the books she is able to control Joffrey. In fact she directs most of what he does. Her excuse to Tyrion that Joff does what he pleases is her trying to deflect blame from her. In fact, Tyrion even frightens Joffrey stating that he will tell Cersei that he is abusing Sansa. Cersei is not as smart as she thinks but she is cunning, at least in the first few books.

How do you know that? Joffrey was also letting Sansa be beaten in a way, that could have easily killed her. (and there goes Jaime's life) She is not controlling him, when it comes to that. Also LF is smarter than Cersei, if he in deed wanted Ned to be killed as you argue he could have found a way.

[teej6]

Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

How do you know that? Joffrey was also letting Sansa be beaten in a way, that could have easily killed her. (and there goes Jaime's life) She is not controlling him, when it comes to that. Also LF is smarter than Cersei, if he in deed wanted Ned to be killed as you argue he could have found a way.

Because Cersei states as much in a later book — she clearly states that she wanted Ned to take the black. She’s smart enough to know the value of Ned as a hostage alive. 

No, Cersei is not controlling Joff when he abuses Sansa cause she doesn’t care about Sansa. All Cersei cares is to keep Sansa alive, nothing more. 

Of course LF is smarter than Cersei and he’s also quite possibly the smartest person in the books. Since he’s so smart, he’s not going to have Ned killed in a manner that it comes back to him. He’s going to wait for the opportune moment to present itself where no one will suspect it was his idea. Such an opportunity presented itself when Ned publicly confessed to treason. LF could have easily slipped the idea of killing Ned to Joffrey in a manner that stupid Joffrey assumed it was his all along. Again, I don’t know this for a fact, it is only a theory that has been floating around for years. 

[Nagini's Neville]

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Tyrion shrugged. “He knows that your son’s short reign has been a long parade of follies and disasters. That suggests that someone is giving Joffrey some very bad counsel.”

That is pretty out of context. which chapter is it from? 

But even if Tyrion and Tywin suspected that someone influenced Joff, that's no evidence that it truly what happened. It's not like Joffrey is behaving out of character here.

And if it did there is no way to tell, that this person wouldn't have succeeded in a different way.