The North: a proto-democracy?

[Rose of Red Lake]

34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's not what I said. So, straw man. My point was that yes, his endings tend to confuse a lot of readers or is not what they expected out of it.

And if you read his past work and the criticisms then you know "but the audience won't like it" is a non-argument. So, why are you bringing it up?

I'm not saying the audience won't like it, I'm saying the audience won't get it. And I'm as sympathetic as they come to his message about timebinding being important to good decisions, and dragons being a warning about absolute power and WMDs. I dont want to spend my life explaining GRRM's views to people. Which is probably what we'll be doing forever, since he'll never finish anyway. 

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I'm not saying the audience won't like it, I'm saying the audience won't get it. And I'm as sympathetic as they come to his message about timebinding being important to good decisions, and dragons being a warning about absolute power and WMDs. I dont want to spend my life explaining GRRM's views to people. Which is probably what we'll be doing forever, since he'll never finish anyway. 

Then don't explain it for the rest of your life. Let people try to figure it out.

But "not getting an ending" is not a negative point in storytelling. Loads of people sit down to watch work by David Lynch, knowing beforehand they "won't get it".

[Mystical]

I'm not a fan of the magical tree wizard or God-like being ending up presiding over everything. GRRM always boasts about 'the human heart in conflict with itself'. But then what is the point of the struggle when in the end it's not about the human element but the magical one? What's the point of going on a 'human heart conflict' journey with these characters and them possibly resolving said conflict when in the end you just go for the magical solution?

It's also really infantilizing that every non-magical (read: human) person in GRRM's Planetos is unfit to rule. Magical god-like beings for the win because they don't have to do the work and read a book or spend time to learn things, they can just go vision questing or whatever. Yay for cheaters.

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

I'm not a fan of the magical tree wizard or God-like being ending up presiding over everything. GRRM always boasts about 'the human heart in conflict with itself'. But then what is the point of the struggle when in the end it's not about the human element but the magical one? What's the point of going on a 'human heart conflict' journey with these characters and them possibly resolving said conflict when in the end you just go for the magical solution?

It's also really infantilizing that every non-magical (read: human) person in GRRM's Planetos is unfit to rule. Magical god-like beings for the win because they don't have to do the work and read a book or spend time to learn things, they can just go vision questing or whatever. Yay for cheaters.

Ah, so Bran is not a human being? Bran won't have to struggle? Bran will not have a heart in conflict? And since when do you get to make sure someone who's accused of a crime is guilty of it by reading books?

[The Lord of the Crossing]

No, the north is not a democracy.  Barbrey Dustin didn't have a chance to refuse to go to war when Robb Stark decided to start one.  The women who get repeatedly raped during their wedding night can't really refuse can they.  

[Corvo the Crow]

Wildlings have democracy, of sorts. Moon clansmen have a true democracy if i recall. 

[Tyrion1991]

On 1/16/2020 at 12:21 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think the council before the Lords declare Robb king is really interesting, in contrast to the way decisions are made in King's Landing.

First we have the lay out of the room, with the Riverland lords and the Northern lords sitting opposite each other:

I like the shape, like a village square. The lords argue and say their peace, under no threat of retribution:

It sounds like they can swear and threaten whomever they want - possibly even Robb or Ned? Regardless, this looks like freedom of speech, which some people in the world don't even have right now.

Cat listens, as does Robb, before talking: 

He also isn't afraid to admit that there are some things he doesn't know:

However, Robb knows how to play to his audience by stoking their anger. It's remarkably similar to Jon's speech in the Shieldhall. Catelyn also gets her moment to try to persuade them, to sue for peace. Her speech is really good, I won't quote it at length. Unfortunately the Northerners really just want blood:

Whether it was the right decision or not, I really like the governmental style of the North, where everyone debates, and speaks their mind about the wisdom of going to war. It's a messy, imperfect example of freedom of assembly and free speech. While I don't think we will see them extend that concept to everyone, would you call this a proto-democracy?

 

Democracy in the real world took examples from Ancient Greece and Rome. Westeros does not have comparable institutions to draw inspiration from. You don’t have legions of educated elites who think the Roman Republic was epic and that we should do that rather than have a King.

Also, a lot of enlightenment philosophy goes into a liberal democracy. Which is not present in Westeros and incredibly unlikely to develop in the rural and depopulated North. It’s not just the basic premise of voting people in.

Electing Kings was not unheard of in Europe. In the Holy Roman Empire elector counts would elect the Emperor. In Poland Lithuania the Lords did the same. Both systems favoured the landed aristocracy and in the former became dominated by the Habsburgs anyway. So these weren’t Porto democracies. They were just vehicles of aristocratic power. I mean the Praetorians got chose the next Roman Emperor, did that make them a democratic institution?

I disagree completely with the sentiment that the North is on the path to modernity. The North is a rural, sparsely populated wilderness with few towns that can barely feed itself. It’s closer to Russia than it is to Scotland. You’re far more likely to see the region become marginalised as the South develops and urbanises. Places like Oldtown and Lannisport are far more likely to be centres of commerce and learning akin to the Renaissance and Enlightment than Winterfell. Even White Harbour is a provincial city by comparison. Plus, being rural and with few people the North would have to adopt similar harsh labour practices to control the serfs like in Tsarist Russia. These would naturally run counter to any kind of modernity.

Also, the Northern Lords are not men of the people. Just because they’re poor and smell of their own faeces doesn’t mean they’re down with the small folk. These people are huge landowners who own thousands of peasants who they are living off. If a peasant complains about his taxes, these good men who have him hung, drawn and quartered. Just because Rob can have a chat with his peers doesn’t make the North a democratic society.