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Eternally_His

Was Robb drugged?

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6 hours ago, acwill07 said:

Honestly, I think something was put on the arrow that was used to shoot Robb in the arm.  If you notice the sequence of events, Robb gets shot in the arm and then almost immediately the castle garrison surrenders.  Then Robb's wound festers.....IMO that was exactly what the Spicers wanted to happen.  I believe that is the plan they made when they made a pact with Tywin.....wound Robb, get him bedridden, let Jeyne seduce him.

Robb explains how it happened.

The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle.”

Ser Rolph may have yielded quicker than one normally would, but I don’t see how Robb taking an arrow could be part of any plot. Why not kill him instead of going through all this mess? I’m sure Sybell would get her prizes from Tywin if they kill Robb and end the war. 
 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Robb explains how it happened.

The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle.”

Ser Rolph may have yielded quicker than one normally would, but I don’t see how Robb taking an arrow could be part of any plot. Why not kill him instead of going through all this mess? I’m sure Sybell would get her prizes from Tywin if they kill Robb and end the war. 
 

Indeed. 

@Edgar Allen Poemont did draw a nice parallel between Robb & Drogo's wounds festering. If they wanted him dead, & I assume they would, why didn't Jeyne botch the healing? Maybe Sybell knew Jeyne wouldn't be down with all that. Couldn't Sybell have slipped something into the medicine? Maybe not. 

Anyway is this meant to show us something in regards to Drogo's wound? Possibly that when it's treated correctly it does/can heal? There are too many unknowns about Drogos healing to make a definitive answer I think. MMD may or may not have made a poultice that was intended to heal, Drogo may or may not have hindered that by removing it & putting his own mud patch over the wound. It's interesting though. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. 

@Edgar Allen Poemont did draw a nice parallel between Robb & Drogo's wounds festering. If they wanted him dead, & I assume they would, why didn't Jeyne botch the healing?

Yeah, but wounds do fester. They do irl, just imagine w/ Westerosi standards of hygiene and lack of antiseptics and antibiotics. In fact, it’s surprising that we don’t get a lot more deaths from septicaemia and a lot more limbs being amputated. Yikes! :lol:

Quote

Maybe Sybell knew Jeyne wouldn't be down with all that. Couldn't Sybell have slipped something into the medicine? Maybe not. 

Hard to tell, given the actual facts. I agree it’s somewhat unlikely that Jeyne would be cool w/ something like that, but who knows.

Quote

Anyway is this meant to show us something in regards to Drogo's wound?

I don’t think so... like I said, I think it’s surprising we don’t get more nasty infections. 

Quote

Possibly that when it's treated correctly it does/can heal?

Hypothetically speaking, any wound can heal, but at the same time there’s never any guarantees that a wound will heal. There are so many variables at play in something like this. That’s in part why I don’t buy the idea that what Mirri did was a deliberate and calculated move. 

ETA: re Mirri, I think she rolled the dice, hoping that Drogo wouldn’t follow her instructions, among other things, like making the poultice extra itchy etc.

Quote

There are too many unknowns about Drogos healing to make a definitive answer I think. MMD may or may not have made a poultice that was intended to heal, Drogo may or may not have hindered that by removing it & putting his own mud patch over the wound. It's interesting though. 

It is interesting. And I don’t think we will ever get a definitive answer. :dunno:

Edited by kissdbyfire

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, but wounds do fester. They do irl, just imagine w/ Westerosi standards of hygiene and lack of antiseptics and antibiotics. In fact, it’s surprising that we don’t get a lot more deaths from septicaemia and a lot more limbs being amputated. Yikes! :lol:

Haha, yeah absolutely they do, and this may be just an example of George trying to keep it real. But it could also mean he is drawing some parallel. 

Right, by all rights almost every wound taken in Westeros should fester. 

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hard to tell, given the actual facts. I agree it’s somewhat unlikely that Jeyne would be cool w/ something like that, but who knows.

Yeah for sure. I doubt it to, given her emotions after the fact. Plus, if she would have been willing to do that it would have been much easier to kill him there than to plot this whole thing to get him to go back on his word to the Freys. Except, she may have faced some dire consequences if something did happen to Robb in her care. The Northmen would have probably smelled treachery. 

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think so... like I said, I think it’s surprising we don’t get more nasty infections. 

Yep. I can't even think of an amputation that was necessary for infection in universe. I'm sure there are some, but I can't think of them. There really should be lots of them. 

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hypothetically speaking, any wound can heal, but at the same time there’s never any guarantees that a wound will heal. There are so many variables at play in something like this. That’s in part why I don’t buy the idea that what Mirri did was a deliberate and calculated mov

Right, they all can heal, I just meant is George just trying to make this realistic? Or is he trying to tell us something? Idk about Mirri, she is an enigma to me & don't wanna derail the thread but I think it's probably just as likely that she used some "magic" to make him sick as it is that she truly tried to heal him. There is just no telling & I do hope we get some definitive answer here, but I don't think we will. 

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It is interesting. And I don’t think we will ever get a definitive answer. :dunno:

Nope probably not, but a girl can hope :)

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18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

When Cersei is talking to Qyburn he specifically says, “maegi?” when Cersei tells him they used to call her Maggy b/c her name was foreign and difficult to pronounce.

AFfC, Cersei VIII

“She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord’s father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.”
Maegi?”
“Is that how you say it? The woman would suck a drop of blood from your finger, and tell you what your morrows held.”

 

18 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ."

 

From ASOS.

Two things.
First. Kevan and Cersei both say virtually exactly the same thing. No one could pronounce the old woman's weird, long, foreign name, so she was commonly called Maegi. She was brought back from the east by a wealthy merchant as his wife. Half of Lannisport went to her for potions etc.
Only Cersei mispronounces the name because she was a child at the time and misunderstood.

Second. Maggy/Maegi was not, was never, the woman's name. Even Cersei said so.

I think its extremely clear. The old woman was referred to by all and sundry in Lannisport as Maegi, as a sort of title, not name.. 

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7 minutes ago, corbon said:

Two things.
First. Kevan and Cersei both say virtually exactly the same thing. No one could pronounce the old woman's weird, long, foreign name, so she was commonly called Maegi. She was brought back from the east by a wealthy merchant as his wife. Half of Lannisport went to her for potions etc.
Only Cersei mispronounces the name because she was a child at the time and misunderstood.

Second. Maggy/Maegi was not, was never, the woman's name. Even Cersei said so.

I think its extremely clear. The old woman was referred to by all and sundry in Lannisport as Maegi, as a sort of title, not name.. 

I disagree. I mean, I agree that the woman’s name is neither Maggy nor maegi, but I disagree that people used to call her maegi. That’s the whole point of “Maggy”; it’s an easier and more recognisable [actual] name that sounds sort of similar to maegi

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I disagree. I mean, I agree that the woman’s name is neither Maggy nor maegi, but I disagree that people used to call her maegi. That’s the whole point of “Maggy”; it’s an easier and more recognisable [actual] name that sounds sort of similar to maegi

Well, we are free to disagree.
Kevan explicitly says they called her Maegi. Seems clear to me that Cersei just didn't understand, being a child, and recalled it as Maggy.

Either way, no one suggests it was used as a/her name. Seems clear - more or less explicit from Kevan, not fully understood by child-Cersei it was therefore a title.

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5 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, we are free to disagree.

We certainly are.

5 minutes ago, corbon said:


Kevan explicitly says they called her Maegi. Seems clear to me that Cersei just didn't understand, being a child, and recalled it as Maggy.

Either way, no one suggests it was used as a/her name. Seems clear - more or less explicit from Kevan, not fully understood by child-Cersei it was therefore a title.

No, it’s more than that, as the text clearly says:

AFfC, Cersei VIII

“She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord’s father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.”

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23 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, we are free to disagree.
Kevan explicitly says they called her Maegi. Seems clear to me that Cersei just didn't understand, being a child, and recalled it as Maggy.

Either way, no one suggests it was used as a/her name. Seems clear - more or less explicit from Kevan, not fully understood by child-Cersei it was therefore a title.

 

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We certainly are.

No, it’s more than that, as the text clearly says:

AFfC, Cersei VIII

“She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord’s father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.”

Yes, I’m not suggesting it’s her given name but a mispronunciation of maegi. Kevan presumably, being older and more educated, would pronounce it correctly. It’s part of a word association game that GRRM is playing. What I’m most curious about is why is it used so often in connection to MMD and then to Sybelle through her grandmother with one stand alone mention. When I read that quote now it almost seems like an alert. Maegi !!! they called her. GRRM even capitalizes it and then he ends the paragraph with blood... 

  I certainly didn’t catch it in my first read. I may have given it more of a hmmm reaction on my second, but only because by that point I knew who Maggy was. It’s very clever.

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14 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

 

Yes, I’m not suggesting it’s her given name but a mispronunciation of maegi. Kevan presumably, being older and more educated, would pronounce it correctly. It’s part of a word association game that GRRM is playing. What I’m most curious about is why is it used so often in connection to MMD and then to Sybelle through her grandmother with one stand alone mention. When I read that quote now it almost seems like an alert. Maegi !!! they called her. GRRM even capitalizes it and then he ends the paragraph with blood... 

  I certainly didn’t catch it in my first read. I may have given it more of a hmmm reaction on my second, but only because by that point I knew who Maggy was. It’s very clever.

I agree that older, “educated” people are more likely to call her maegi, and as the quote from the Cersei chapter says, “the smallfolk used to call her Maggy”. It makes perfect sense IMO. 

And MMD also being called maegi makes sense as well, as the word seems to be a noun in whatever language, like maester or priestess.

This is what the Wiki says:

A maegi is a woman of Essos who practices bloodmagic.[1] According to Mirri Maz Duur, the word means "wise".

Edited by kissdbyfire

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8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. 

@Edgar Allen Poemont did draw a nice parallel between Robb & Drogo's wounds festering. If they wanted him dead, & I assume they would, why didn't Jeyne botch the healing? Maybe Sybell knew Jeyne wouldn't be down with all that. Couldn't Sybell have slipped something into the medicine? Maybe not. 

Anyway is this meant to show us something in regards to Drogo's wound? Possibly that when it's treated correctly it does/can heal? There are too many unknowns about Drogos healing to make a definitive answer I think. MMD may or may not have made a poultice that was intended to heal, Drogo may or may not have hindered that by removing it & putting his own mud patch over the wound. It's interesting though. 

 Another interesting parallel between Robb and Drogo, I think is they are both undefeated in battle. I think it probably has significance but haven’t had time to look to far into it yet. I would like to follow up a little on the conversation about Robb’s festering wound between you and @kissdbyfire (I literally just figured out how to do that!). Unfortunately, I’m pressed for time, so I’ll post more later.

 

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49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We certainly are.

No, it’s more than that, as the text clearly says:

AFfC, Cersei VIII

“She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord’s father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.”

Sure.

But Cersei also said she didn't recall her name (so the name wasn't Maggy), which was long and eastern and outlandish. As you underlined.
Contrast what Kevan says.

Quote

 Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. 

Maegi they called her, which wasn't her name. Which is a known 'title'.

Essentially Kevan and Cersei say exactly the same thing, with a minor pronunciation variation at most, and Cersei not understanding the relevance due to her age at the time.
 

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5 minutes ago, corbon said:

Sure.

But Cersei also said she didn't recall her name (so the name wasn't Maggy), which was long and eastern and outlandish. As you underlined.
Contrast what Kevan says.

Maegi they called her, which wasn't her name. Which is a known 'title'.

Essentially Kevan and Cersei say exactly the same thing, with a minor pronunciation variation at most, and Cersei not understanding the relevance due to her age at the time.
 

It seems it’s simple as can be. No one mentions her actual name; we can be fairly certain it isn’t maegi or Maggy. Some people, probably the older and more educated refer to her by her “title”, while others, like the smallfolk, call her Maggy. 

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8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It seems it’s simple as can be. No one mentions her actual name; we can be fairly certain it isn’t maegi or Maggy. Some people, probably the older and more educated refer to her by her “title”, while others, like the smallfolk, call her Maggy. 

Umm, not sure where we disagree then.
I think even the smallfolk are referring to her by the title "Maegi", and probably understand that, at least most of the adults.
You think that only the educated ones actually understand its a title?

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3 minutes ago, corbon said:

Umm, not sure where we disagree then.

We probably don’t? :cheers:

3 minutes ago, corbon said:


I think even the smallfolk are referring to her by the title "Maegi", and probably understand that, at least most of the adults.
You think that only the educated ones actually understand its a title?

Not sure tbh, but I also don’t think it matters much. My first guess is it’s an intuitive “adaptation” of a word they’re not familiar with but sounds very similar to one they are. 

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On 2/18/2020 at 5:52 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that older, “educated” people are more likely to call her maegi, and as the quote from the Cersei chapter says, “the smallfolk used to call her Maggy”. It makes perfect sense IMO. 

And MMD also being called maegi makes sense as well, as the word seems to be a noun in whatever language, like maester or priestess.

This is what the Wiki says:

A maegi is a woman of Essos who practices bloodmagic.[1] According to Mirri Maz Duur, the word means "wise".

I think it’s a cool play on the Three Magi or Wise Men from the Bible too, attending the birth if Jesus after following a star from the East. 

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Milk of the poppy to dull the pain but nothing that would make him fall in love.  He might dream up stupid things but that's not unusual for a warg.  He chose Jeyne because it is she he wanted.  Lack of honor caused him to insult the Freys.  It's not due to drugs.  Robb lost his head over a girl. 

Edited by Jeeves

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